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Media Create Sales: Week 24, 2012 (Jun 11 - Jun 17)

Dalthien

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Again, this doesn't concern the mainstream. All those methods are also illegal and not at large important to the Japanese market.
I'm not saying it affects the Japanese market to a large degree. But you know what else doesn't affect the Japanese market to a large degree - whether or not a game had been ported to a different system before or not. Let's say FF3 had been ported to the GameBoy Color in 1999 - I don't think it would have had much of an effect on the sales of FF3 DS. A small effect, sure. But probably similar to the effect of people (a large number of gamers have played emulated NES Roms at some point in their life, by the way) playing FF3 on an emulator at some point.


It's not a ridiculous argument. You have to ask why even DQ declined on PS2, although it was so successful as a platform. PS3 is even worse in regards to being a multi purpose device, as it was even more expensive and much less successful. Install base does cap possible sales.
Yeah, it really is a ridiculous argument. What does it matter why the series dropped off after the PS1? It has dropped off. My suggestion is that Final Fantasy could possibly sell just as well on a handheld as on a home console in today's market. I think FFXIII on DS (or later-life PSP) could have sold around what FFXIII on PS3 sold. I think a hypothetical FFXV on 3DS could potentially sell just as well as FFXV on PS4.

And part of that is that the handheld market is much stronger now than it was in the PS1 era. And guess what, that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon. The 3DS seems an absolute lock to dwarf any potential install base that will exist on either PS4 or WiiU. So it leaves it in a good spot to challenge home consoles moving forward.


And your 2 million for a new mainline FF on DS or 3DS is pure speculation. You don't really have a strong argument to begin with.
Of course it's speculation. As is your theory that FF would sell better on home consoles. The theory has never been tested, so it's all speculation.

But my argument is based on something. For this current home console generation, the two mainline home console entries are at 1.9M and 800k on the PS3. Within the same timeframe, FF3 DS is over a million and Dissidia PSP is at 900k. So handheld ports/remakes/spin-offs have already beat XIII-2, and are within a million of XIII. And it's safe to assume that a full-fledged mainline title would have performed significantly better than the ports/remakes/spin-offs that already topped XIII-2. Getting up near the total of XIII seems very plausible.
 

Hero

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Probably. Fire Emblem 3DS is the best selling FE in a long time and it totally embraced the anime/manga vibe and even went further with the moe and what not. If that managed 500K I think P4G could've done a lot.
 

duckroll

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Hey guys, do you think FFXVI could sell more or less than 500k on a next-generation Nintendo portable system (post-3DS) or would it sell more on the PS4?
 

Dalthien

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Hey guys, do you think FFXVI could sell more or less than 500k on a next-generation Nintendo portable system (post-3DS) or would it sell more on the PS4?
How well does FFXV sell?

(I'm guessing you don't approve of the conversation.)
 

Truth101

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Hey guys, do you think FFXVI could sell more or less than 500k on a next-generation Nintendo portable system (post-3DS) or would it sell more on the PS4?
More on a portable.

Edit:

Hah, missed that you were poking fun at them.
 

duckroll

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On a more serious note, I think that one major flaw in "would [x] sell better on [y]" discussion is that when a platform shift is so great that it would basically require the actual product to be a completely different thing to begin with, it is probably not a very worthwhile or meaningful discussion in the end.

Why? Because a game title is just a game title, and a brand is only worth as much as what it means to people who want to play it. A strong brand usually indicates that the brand is attached to products which people generally want, but once that brand stops offering what people liked about it, it no longer holds much value.

So an argument about how much FFXIII would have sold on the DS is rather nonsensical due to the fact that if it were on the DS it would be a totally different game with a totally different release and development schedule, and a different type of marketing, and hence when all those are taken into consideration it will be a totally different end product. Would people like this more, hence allowing it to sell more? Maybe? Who knows? We don't even know what such a product would be. So what's the point?
 

michaelius

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But my argument is based on something. For this current home console generation, the two mainline home console entries are at 1.9M and 800k on the PS3. Within the same timeframe, FF3 DS is over a million and Dissidia PSP is at 900k. So handheld ports/remakes/spin-offs have already beat XIII-2, and are within a million of XIII. And it's safe to assume that a full-fledged mainline title would have performed significantly better than the ports/remakes/spin-offs that already topped XIII-2. Getting up near the total of XIII seems very plausible.

That's cool. And you think western sales of handheld FF would rival western sales of PS3 version ?

If your game needs to sell just below 250k-300k units, that's true. But if your game usually sells more than that, I cannot see why choosing PSVita over 3DS / PS3, at least until the installed base stays below one million units.
Is this your first time reading MC thread ?
Japan has a whole industry of companies who live on game releases which sell 50-100k copies regularly.
 
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Is this your first time reading MC thread ?
Japan has a whole industry of companies who live on game releases which sell 50-100k copies regularly.
And how about hardware that have only games that sell just on that range? Strong IP and million sellers also help to build a fanbase that then purchases minor games. Without Monster Hunter on PSP, for example, I'm doubtful titles like God Eater and Phantasy Star Portable could manage to sell so much.
 

Dalthien

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So an argument about how much FFXIII would have sold on the DS is rather nonsensical due to the fact that if it were on the DS it would be a totally different game with a totally different release and development schedule, and a different type of marketing, and hence when all those are taken into consideration it will be a totally different end product. Would people like this more, hence allowing it to sell more? Maybe? Who knows? We don't even know what such a product would be. So what's the point?
Can't argue with that.

By the way, it's cool to see you in the thread again. You've been absent lately (or maybe it just seems that way?)

That's cool. And you think western sales of handheld FF would rival western sales of PS3 version ?
Possibly? FF3 DS and Crisis Core PSP both outsold XIII-2 (PS3+360 combined) in the west after all. But the discussion with extralite was focused specifically on Japan.
 

walking fiend

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On a more serious note, I think that one major flaw in "would [x] sell better on [y]" discussion is that when a platform shift is so great that it would basically require the actual product to be a completely different thing to begin with, it is probably not a very worthwhile or meaningful discussion in the end.

Why? Because a game title is just a game title, and a brand is only worth as much as what it means to people who want to play it. A strong brand usually indicates that the brand is attached to products which people generally want, but once that brand stops offering what people liked about it, it no longer holds much value.

So an argument about how much FFXIII would have sold on the DS is rather nonsensical due to the fact that if it were on the DS it would be a totally different game with a totally different release and development schedule, and a different type of marketing, and hence when all those are taken into consideration it will be a totally different end product. Would people like this more, hence allowing it to sell more? Maybe? Who knows? We don't even know what such a product would be. So what's the point?
I don't see how Persona is comparable to a mainline final fantasy though; they are not visual showcases.

or are some people really saying FF mainlines shoould [or even is possible] to come to a handheld? I think they probably will not be even released on Wii U if they graphical leap of PS4 is huge [at least as long as it doesn't end up in a position such as Vita; that is, the support being still on Wii U and PS3 even after its release]

Too depressed to post about sales after KH3D bombed. :/
it was apperent once we had the lack luster pre-order datas honestly; but I think it may perform at least good in the west (like 800k LTD when all is said and done]
 

extralite

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Why? Because a game title is just a game title, and a brand is only worth as much as what it means to people who want to play it. A strong brand usually indicates that the brand is attached to products which people generally want, but once that brand stops offering what people liked about it, it no longer holds much value.
That's exactly the problem FF has. In the post-buy poll for the FFXIII demo version contained in ACC one of the key questions was, what does make a FF game a FF game for you?

With FFIX, Square tried to reconcile old fans, yet it saw a decline (could have other reasons though). Crystal Chronicles is obviously an attempt to appeal to old fans, as was 4 Warriors of Light, but they keep trying new things with these games and only face declining sales. They obviously have no good concept to appeal to those old fans other than maybe the social games for mobile phones (not sure how well these actually do).

But splitting the classic Euro-middle ages FF from the main series has affected it as well. And FF's rise to success was linked to pretty graphics and film-like narrative devices, as it started with FFV and Kitase's influence. So tradional fans have lots of choices to play other FF games and the ones who want to play the pretty, new best graphics FF have to pay for the increasingly expensive platforms.

Which should also fuel the used market. If the console is too expensive, you *have* to start thinking about alternative ways to get it cheaper. Once you buy used, why stop at the hardware? Sony's strategy basically results in advertising the game recycling industry.

@Dalthien
FFIVDS sold considerably less than III. The most cited explanation still is that it has been ported/remade much more often. Both go back to the barely million seller age, before the series exploded with FFV. Starting with V all FFs, and thanks to the remakes also the earlier ones except III, were widely played by the time IIIDS hit.

Our best bet to gauge handheld vs. console success of modern pretty graphics FF will be FF Versus XIII. As opposed to those speculated games this is actually confirmed to happen.
 

duckroll

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I don't see how Persona is comparable to a mainline final fantasy though; they are not visual showcases.

or are some people really saying FF mainlines shoould [or even is possible] to come to a handheld? I think they probably will not be even released on Wii U if they graphical leap of PS4 is huge [at least as long as it doesn't end up in a position such as Vita; that is, the support being still on Wii U and PS3 even after its release]
I'm talking about the FF discussion. I think whether P4G could have done as well on the 3DS is a valid discussion, and possibly an interesting one, although I have no real input. Both platforms are capable of handling P4, and the game as it exists could be easily compared between platforms.
 

walking fiend

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ith FFIX, Square tried to reconcile old fans, yet it saw a decline (could have other reasons though). Crystal Chronicles is obviously an attempt to appeal to old fans, as was 4 Warriors of Light, but they keep trying new things with these games and only face declining sales. They obviously have no good concept to appeal to those old fans other than maybe the social games for mobile phones (not sure how well these actually do).
what old fans? Who played FF VII at the relase are probably in their 30's by now; of course they can't bring them back.

And if they want to sell that much to the new people, they should make something that is relatively that good comapred to the rest of the products in the market; which obviously they haven't been able to do at least since FF X.

I'm talking about the FF discussion. I think whether P4G could have done as well on the 3DS is a valid discussion, and possibly an interesting one, although I have no real input. Both platforms are capable of handling P4, and the game as it exists could be easily compared between platforms.
thanks for clarification; so there 'are' people who think mainline FF should move to handhelds? wow!
 

michaelius

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And how about hardware that have only games that sell just on that range? Strong IP and million sellers also help to build a fanbase that then purchases minor games. Without Monster Hunter on PSP, for example, I'm doubtful titles like God Eater and Phantasy Star Portable could manage to sell so much.
Not necessirely - look at White Knight chronicles which Sony released to counter X360 getting all jrpgs - that sold around 300-400k despite being crap.

Being direct competitor to popular franchise exclusive to other system can also be beneficial position.
 

duckroll

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And if they want to sell that much to the new people, they should make something that is relatively that good comapred to the rest of the products in the market; which obviously they haven't been able to do at least since FF X.
That's probably what's taking Versus so long tbh. I'm not saying they'll succeed at this point, but it seems they really do want to create a FF game which has a certain level of quality in it, and offering things which are relevant in the modern market with regards to both action and RPGs. If they're unable to deliver on that, then maybe they really need to relook at the value of their staff and consider finding fresh blood to inject more creativity into the company.
 

shinra-bansho

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it was apperent once we had the lack luster pre-order datas honestly; but I think it may perform at least good in the west (like 800k LTD when all is said and done]
Do you mean total or just in Western markets?

Isn't that ~thrice it's Japanese sales?

Quick google tells me BBS had a first NPD month of 225K cf first week of 440K MC iirc.
 
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Not necessirely - look at White Knight chronicles which Sony released to counter X360 getting all jrpgs - that sold around 300-400k despite being crap.

Being direct competitor to popular franchise exclusive to other system can also be beneficial position.
PS3 would have got Final Fantasy XIII: a lot of people knew about a possible good position on the jRPG side of PS3. As far as Vita installed base remains so low, I cannot see big investment from third parties; then, Vita could also become the handheld equivalent of 360 in terms of niche / otaku presence.
 

duckroll

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Do you mean total or just in Western markets?

Isn't that ~thrice it's Japanese sales?

Quick google tells me BBS had a first NPD month of 225K cf first week of 440K MC iirc.
The PSP is pretty much a dead system in the US though. KH traditionally does much better in the US than in Japan, but lately the platform choices have tipped the scales (without actually adding to Japanese sales, so all sales are kinda down for KH).
 

beril

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On a more serious note, I think that one major flaw in "would [x] sell better on [y]" discussion is that when a platform shift is so great that it would basically require the actual product to be a completely different thing to begin with, it is probably not a very worthwhile or meaningful discussion in the end.

Why? Because a game title is just a game title, and a brand is only worth as much as what it means to people who want to play it. A strong brand usually indicates that the brand is attached to products which people generally want, but once that brand stops offering what people liked about it, it no longer holds much value.

So an argument about how much FFXIII would have sold on the DS is rather nonsensical due to the fact that if it were on the DS it would be a totally different game with a totally different release and development schedule, and a different type of marketing, and hence when all those are taken into consideration it will be a totally different end product. Would people like this more, hence allowing it to sell more? Maybe? Who knows? We don't even know what such a product would be. So what's the point?
Fair enough. The original argument was about people prefering to play certain types of games on a console over handhelds, in regards to EX Troopers. FF isn't really a good example to prove or disprove that theory, as there are no really comparable games on portables, and a hypothetical FFXIII DS wouldn't really have helped either. I guess the closest would be XIII-2 and Type-0 but they're still very different.

I don't really expect the 3DS versions of EX Troopers to be on par visually or gameplay wise, and currently the fanbase for Lost Planet and third person shooters in general is on PS3, so that version will probably sell way better. But assuming both version were nearly identical, I don't think it would be possible to say where people would prefer to play it. Handhelds are dominating in japan for a reason and nearly all the big titles are games that would previously have been thought of as console type of games.
 

mclem

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So an argument about how much FFXIII would have sold on the DS is rather nonsensical due to the fact that if it were on the DS it would be a totally different game with a totally different release and development schedule, and a different type of marketing, and hence when all those are taken into consideration it will be a totally different end product. Would people like this more, hence allowing it to sell more? Maybe? Who knows? We don't even know what such a product would be. So what's the point?
We can actually cite a specific example: Xenosaga DS vs. PS2. I have to admit, while it's obviously visually very different, I have genuinely no clue if it's a vastly different game or not.
 

AniHawk

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So *that's* why the VMU2 was codenamed 'Ziggy'.
holy shit, i thought that would be too obscure for pretty much anyone. <3

We can actually cite a specific example: Xenosaga DS vs. PS2. I have to admit, while it's obviously visually very different, I have genuinely no clue if it's a vastly different game or not.
i think the ds game had slightly fewer 45 minute-long cutscenes.
 

duckroll

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We can actually cite a specific example: Xenosaga DS vs. PS2. I have to admit, while it's obviously visually very different, I have genuinely no clue if it's a vastly different game or not.
It is a vastly different game.
 

extralite

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what old fans? Who played FF VII at the relase are probably in their 30's by now; of course they can't bring them back.
I meant the ones going back to SFC, with European middle ages fantasy setting and big headed characters. Up until VI, and partially to VII, they overlapped with the general FF audience that grew to upwards of 2.5 million with V.

Even with fans getting older and not having enough time to play those games anymore, they represent general tastes in society that are inluenced among groups of people, members of which might pass on their opinion to younger players or buy games for them, if they are their kids for example.
 

Perfo

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And looking at XIII and XIII-2, I wouldn't rule out a handheld mainline entry even selling better than the home console entries of today.
Except Final Fantasy is bigger in the west and here gamers want it to stay on home consoles. This is not your typical Dragon Quest with most of the audience being in Japan. Final Fantasy is the biggest international IP Square Enix has, the only big Square Enix Japan title in the west and their flagship title all over the world. Luminous Engine clearly hints at the future of FF in one way or another, and that means with cool technologies available only on home consoles.
 

walking fiend

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That's probably what's taking Versus so long tbh. I'm not saying they'll succeed at this point, but it seems they really do want to create a FF game which has a certain level of quality in it, and offering things which are relevant in the modern market with regards to both action and RPGs. If they're unable to deliver on that, then maybe they really need to relook at the value of their staff and consider finding fresh blood to inject more creativity into the company.
With Versus, I think they probably already have wasted a lot of potential due to the very long development cycle, I think in the end it may end up being a situation like GT5.

For example regarding graphics, not certainly, but with a high probability, regardless of how good Versus would look in for example 2010, by the 2013 it'll will look nothing specially compared to all the games that have come since. Now if they still want it to look very good, at least they have to heavily modify a lot of what they have worked on already, which is really a waste.

Do you mean total or just in Western markets?

Isn't that ~thrice it's Japanese sales?

Quick google tells me BBS had a first NPD month of 225K cf first week of 440K MC iirc.
total.

I think low sales is due to the franchise fatigue. It's true there are quite a few spin-offs for both DQ and FF too, but they have been much more careful with the branding.

For example, you have 'monster' series, or you have 'tactics' series; however, with KH, they are just more KH: something. The only similar spin-off I can think for FF is Crisis Core.

So to someone who isn't really into the series, I think they are all just the same [for example, I don't know if there are any main differences between 3D and BBS at all ]

No. The persona franchise has always been associated more with Sony
aren't all of them are on Sony platform? IIRC

Even with fans getting older and not having enough time to play those games anymore, they represent general tastes in society that are inluenced among groups of people, members of which might pass on their opinion to younger players or buy games for them, if they are their kids for example.
It is difficult to prove such facotrs having a major influence over purchase of younger crowd.
But then again, you may be correct; best selling Marios are still 2D ones; although it may be the case that they are fundamentally better sales (due to being easy to learn, etc.), but not having changed drastically for nearly 3 decades is most probably important too.
 

cw_sasuke

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Lets See how much EX Troopers sells on 3DS once Capcom announces that it includes an exclusive MH4 demo. What I'm trying to say it is way to soon for these kind of discussion.

Btw. With the same kind of marketing P4 would probably would have sold at least as much on 3DS.
 

duckroll

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With Versus, I think they probably already have wasted a lot of potential due to the very long development cycle, I think in the end it may end up being a situation like GT5.

For example regarding graphics, not certainly, but with a high probability, regardless of how good Versus would look in for example 2010, by the 2013 it'll will look nothing specially compared to all the games that have come since. Now if they still want it to look very good, at least they have to heavily modify a lot of what they have worked on already, which is really a waste.
Well, GT5 was still incredibly successful though. So I'm not sure if that's the best example. The series failed to sell in Japan because car racing games in general have fallen out of favor and none of them really sell anymore. Ridge Racer isn't worth anything in Japan either anymore. Only family friendly racing games like Mario Kart can survive in Japan.
 

Zekra Dezivad

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Well, GT5 was still incredibly successful though. So I'm not sure if that's the best example. The series failed to sell in Japan because car racing games in general have fallen out of favor and none of them really sell anymore. Ridge Racer isn't worth anything in Japan either anymore. Only family friendly racing games like Mario Kart can survive in Japan.
Well, GT5 sold 600k copies, not that bad on a platform that have just one million seller.
Every new numbered title in the series sold less than the previous one, but is still an important brand in Japan.
 

walking fiend

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Well, GT5 was still incredibly successful though. So I'm not sure if that's the best example. The series failed to sell in Japan because car racing games in general have fallen out of favor and none of them really sell anymore. Ridge Racer isn't worth anything in Japan either anymore. Only family friendly racing games like Mario Kart can survive in Japan.
GT4 and GT3 combined have sold over 26m[edit: wiki data] I don't see GT6 (if ever released on PS3) and GT5 combined even reaching one of them, let alone 26m.

It is true that the game wasn't critically acclaimed like it's predecessors, but I believe if it was release before 2008, it could not only receive a better critical response, but also sell much better too.

Since this gen started, several major games in the racing/simulation genre came out on consoles:
Forza 2, Forza 3
Dirt 2
Need for Speed Shift

GT was a really huge IP back then, but they gave so much space to the competitors; I would go as far as saying if GT5 was available at near launch on PS3, it would noteicabley help to move the PS3 hardware itself.
 

Principate

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Yeah I don't really see how P4G could have done at least not as well as it did here. It had a lot of marketing and a popular anime, meaning there's most probably a fairly large proprtion of people that bought it that did not play the original. If you were to compare the amount of people that owned a 3DS and watched that anime to the amount that owned a Vita, the relative proportions would probably heavily weigh towards the 3DS.
 

Spiegel

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I didn't imagine Kingdom Hearts 3D selling much less than KHBBS and yet it is one of the biggest bombas in S-E's recent history in Japan.

For all we know Persona 4 3DS could have sold even better than the original release on PS2, or worse than Persona 4 Vita, because we haven't seen any Persona game on Nintendo consoles.
 

flawfuls

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Yeah I don't really see how P4G could have done at least not as well as it did here. It had a lot of marketing and a popular anime, meaning there's most probably a fairly large proprtion of people that bought it that did not play the original. If you were to compare the amount of people that owned a 3DS and watched that anime to the amount that owned a Vita, the relative proportions would probably heavily weigh towards the 3DS.
Would it have gotten the same level of marketing if it was on 3DS? I'm sure Sony gave it a lot of free marketing because it is one of the Vita's biggest games. IIRC there were ads for it long before its release. The anime itself was done by Aniplex which is Sony so it may not have even happened if P4 wasn't a Vita game.
 

extralite

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Franchise fatigue/too many spinoffs/too long since last mainline game
These didn't yet affect BBS though. Two spinoffs with a bad rep on DS and association with TWEWY rather than FF might be more important factors.

Also, to raise your dreameater party members you have to play with them like with little children. It has raising sim elements like that which would appeal more to a female audience. As we can see with sales of Layton 5 and the lack of games like Friend Collection or Animal Crossing, the female audience isn't that strong yet on the 3DS.

Young audience which probably enjoyed the DS KHs most are also still in the process of moving to 3DS, as indicated by lower numbers for Inazuma 11.