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[Psycho_Mantis]

In a year Nintendo introduced a hybrid console, if you follow Japanese sales and still believe handhelds belong to another planet and mobile to another universe as if it's still 2000, there is no logical explanation except one:

Denial.

No one is saying they belong in another planet though. The point being made is not only simple but correct:

Handhelds and home consoles are different segments within the dedicated gaming market. Developers get this, publishers get this, I'm sure even you get this so why this is such a point of contention makes little sense.

 

[Fdkn]

Exactly the point I made last page. Make a well priced, non-stupid home console that serves the needs of the Japanese market and watch people line up. Which is literally what is happening right now with the Switch.

The Switch is portable. In this very thread we saw a photo with a dozen of switches in a table playing together

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Do people think consoles can barely sell over 2 million a year in Japan because they are consoles and that makes them fundamentally unappealing? Cause the last few consoles in Japan have been thoroughly unappealing products for the market imo. I don't think 10 million is the ceiling. I think since the Wii the systems have sucked ass for the market. Handhelds also have a part to do with that but the WiiU being a terrible product isn't solely due to being a console.

Because of Japanese life style and other factors i do think home consoles are unappealing for a big part of the market .
Same can be said for handhelds but they are holding on longer but mobile will get there.

 

[schuelma]

Handhelds and home consoles are different segments within the dedicated gaming market. Developers get this, publishers get this, I'm sure even you get this so why this is such a point of contention makes little sense.

That's not really all that true in Japan. To some extent, yes- there are certain games made just for home consoles and certain games made for handhelds. But DS/3DS have taken a lot of Japanese support and the line is going to get even blurrier with Switch.

 

[ggx2ac]

The Switch is portable. In this very thread we saw a photo with a dozen of switches in a table playing together

Twenty Switch units.

 

[KtSlime]

I'm sure there will be the three groups I listed like always happened.

Group A: These that will only buy the 3DS version.
Group B: These that will only buy the PS4 version.
Group C: These that will buy both.

Gamers that doesn't play on consoles won't buy the PS4 version and vice-versa... these are two different markets.

And in a parallel western universe:

Group A: These people will only buy the Xbox One version
Group B: These people will only buy the PS4 version
Group C: These people will buy both.

Gamers that don't play on PS4 will buy the Xbox One version and vice-versa. The Xbox One and PS4 are two different markets.

Spoiler

I hope this sound absurd to you

 

[ethomaz]

The Switch is portable. In this very thread we saw a photo with a dozen of switches in a table playing together

I thought it was somebody showing his Switch collection to these that can't find any buy on stores

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

That's not really all that true in Japan. To some extent, yes- there are certain games made just for home consoles and certain games made for handhelds. But DS/3DS have taken a lot of Japanese support and the line is going to get even blurrier with Switch.

I fail to see how anything you have said goes against my post.

 

[Kanann]

I am really confuse about today topic now.

 

[Fdkn]

And in a parallel western universe:

Group A: These people will only buy the Xbox One version
Group B: These people will only buy the PS4 version
Group C: These people will buy both.

Gamers that don't play on PS4 will buy the Xbox One version and vice-versa. The Xbox One and PS4 are two different markets.

Spoiler

I hope this sound absurd to you

I don't know if you noticed, but the 3ds DQXI and the PS4 DQXI are not the same product.

 

[schuelma]

I fail to see how anything you have said goes against my post.

You appeared to be saying they are 2 distinct markets with little to no overlap. I disagree. If that's not what you were saying, then nevermind.

 

[Fularu]

I don't know if you noticed, but the 3ds DQXI and the PS4 DQXI are not the same product.

I don't knownif you noticed but the 3DS version of DQ exists solely because the PS4 can't support the game on its own

Worldwide sales or not

 

[cw_sasuke]

I am really confuse about today topic now.

I usually dont like this type of posts....but i kinda have to agree. Read the last couple post twice now and still dont understand what is being argued right now.

 

[ethomaz]

And in a parallel western universe:

Group A: These people will only buy the Xbox One version
Group B: These people will only buy the PS4 version
Group C: These people will buy both.

Gamers that don't play on PS4 will buy the Xbox One version and vice-versa. The Xbox One and PS4 are two different markets.

Sure if you zoom to that point... there is a Xbox sales potential market and a PlayStation sales potential market... one is bigger than other.

But they still fighting at the same potential market... gamers that plays on consoles... Switch is fighting in both gamers that plays on consoles and portables... the market potential for Switch is bigger than PS4 and XB1.

And in my DQXI example I showed two different products targeting different markets... SE choose 2 different products because they had two different markets to target... they want to focus in A, B and C groups and not only one of the two if it was a PS4 or 3DS only release.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

And in a parallel western universe:

Group A: These people will only buy the Xbox One version
Group B: These people will only buy the PS4 version
Group C: These people will buy both.

Gamers that don't play on PS4 will buy the Xbox One version and vice-versa. The Xbox One and PS4 are two different markets.

Spoiler

I hope this sound absurd to you

You point is stupid because a lot of companies don't see XB1\PS4 \PC as different market in the west .
In fact the west would see handheld \ home consoles as different markets much more than Japan since they always trying to push tech and other factors.

 

[Fdkn]

I don't knownif you noticed but the 3DS version of DQ exists solely because the PS4 can't support the game on its own

Worldwide sales or not

And what does that have to do with the point of acknowledging that there will be double dipping from an indeterminate portion of the fanbase?

 

[D.Lo]

I am really confuse about today topic now.

PS4 is a beast, or something.

 

[vareon]

I wonder what's the fascination in calling the Switch a Handheld or Console. Nintendo has the advantage of it being both and will use whatever narrative that will sell more at the moment. When selling Zelda, "you can enjoy Link's grand adventure on the go". When selling Pokemon, "You can now enjoy Pokemon on the big screen".

IMO the most important thing right now is price. Switch's price puts it in direct competition with PS4--a console. Switch is capable of Wii U level graphics and gameplay, so people are expecting those level of softwares in its library.

 

[KtSlime]

I don't know if you noticed, but the 3ds DQXI and the PS4 DQXI are not the same product.

Yeah, a game on two different consoles is never the same product. I have never seen a single Xbox game run on a PS4 have you?

There is only one market in Japan, there are different consoles in that market with very different features. It's not complicated.

 

[Fularu]

And what does that have to do with the point of acknowledging that there will be double dipping from an indeterminate portion of the fanbase?

So the markets overlap and this silly distinction between the "handheld market" and the "home consoles market" can finally be put to rest

 

[D.Lo]

Yeah, a game on two different consoles is never the same product. I have never seen a single Xbox game run on a PS4 have you?

My god...

 

[Skullwaker]

I feel like so many things have been introduced into this argument that it's become completely diluted.

 

[Fdkn]

So the markets overlap and this silly distinction between the "handheld market" and the "home consoles market" can finally be put to rest

Really? have you ever heard about a concept called 'Set Theory'?

 

[test_account]

So the markets overlap and this silly distinction between the "handheld market" and the "home consoles market" can finally be put to rest

I dont think that anyone have argued against that there is some overlapping, only that one type of gaming equipment is more popular than another type of equipment. But this might be where the misunderstanding comes from, indeed.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Because of Japanese life style and other factors i do think home consoles are unappealing for a big part of the market .
Same can be said for handhelds but they are holding on longer but mobile will get there.

See where I disagree is that the cap on consoles is what the PS4 and PS3 did. You know why I think in part consoles do pathetic in Japan currently? Because Japanese publishers are never prepared for transitions to new hardware.

When the PS4 and Xbox 1 came out EA, Activision, Warner, Ubi and Take Two were prepared to support the systems with their biggest franchises immediately. Assassins Creed, CoD, Battlefield etc were ready at launch as cross gen titles. New entries in major franchises launched on the system with 2 years of release and there were a good chunk of releases to get the userbase titles to play while big hitters were prepared.

With the PS4 and the PS3 in Japan that wasn't the case. The systems are wastelands because publishers arent ever ready to support new hardware. And that makes the systems unappealing until like 3 to 4 years into the life cycle. Japan is always behind the ball here when it comes to console development. The DS, PSP and 3DS let games be plopped out much faster so while they had droughts they still got relevant games at a significantly faster rate. Also the 3DS and the Ds had Nintnedo who are the most relevant publisher in Japan to prop them up.

I don't think Japan means death for consoles inherently. I think it is going to be impossible to launch a successful console if KH3, FF15, DQ11, RE7, Persona etc take 3+ years from launch to come out. What are people suppose to buy the system for untip then?

 

[ethomaz]

Really? have you ever heard about a concept called 'Set Theory'?

Thank you for the picture... I tried to find one on google but give up.

That exactly shows what I'm trying to show.

PS4 is showing that console game market in Japan while way lower compared with gold ages is far from dead... it is even increasing at slow pace and that is great... Wii U just didn't have appeal at all and that made Nintendo choose to focus in two potential markets... I don't believe PS5 will be hybrid... the opposite it will be focused in console gaming market only.

 

[13ruce]

Both versions of DQ XI are gonna sell well so what is the problem exactly? Heck even the Switch version will wich comes out later.

 

[Fularu]

Really? have you ever heard about a concept called 'Set Theory'?

You understand that in the set theory, one of the premises is that the number of people solely in A and the number of people solely in B is greater (otherwise it wouldn't make sense) than the people in both A and B (the overlap).

The portion of your A gamers who would only game on a home console in Japan is so infinitely small that it becomes irrelevant. For all intents and purposes they are the same market (with a huge number of people beeing in B).

The proper theory for the home console market in japan is that A is a subset of B.

Edit : I'll go further. A and B are a subset of C, mobile phone gamers

 

[gundamkyoukai]

See where I disagree is that the cap on consoles is what the PS4 and PS3 did. You know why I think in part consoles do pathetic in Japan currently? Because Japanese publishers are never prepared for transitions to new hardware.

When the PS4 and Xbox 1 came out EA, Activision, Warner, Ubi and Take Two were prepared to support the systems with their biggest franchises immediately. Assassins Creed, CoD, Battlefield etc were ready at launch as cross gen titles. New entries in major franchises launched on the system with 2 years of release and there were a good chunk of releases to get the userbase titles to play while big hitters were prepared.

With the PS4 and the PS3 in Japan that wasn't the case. The systems are wastelands because publishers arent ever ready to support new hardware. And that makes the systems unappealing until like 3 to 4 years into the life cycle. Japan is always behind the ball here when it comes to console development. The DS, PSP and 3DS let games be plopped out much faster so while they had droughts they still got relevant games at a significantly faster rate.

I don't think Japan means death for consoles inherently. I think it is going to be impossible to launch a successful console if KH3, FF15, DQ11, RE7, Persona etc take 3+ years from launch to come out. What are people suppose to buy the system for untip then?

Don't get me wrong i don't think the cap is PS3\PS4 .
Still i don't think we going to see anything like the PS1\PS2 days .
Like you said one of the reason is software and for me other factors .

 

[ethomaz]

You understand that in the set theory, one of the premises is that the number of people solely in A and the number of people solely in B is greater (otherwise it wouldn't make sense) than the people in both A and B (the overlap).

The portion of your A gamers who would only game on a home console in Japan is so infinitely small that it becomes irrelevant. For all intents and purposes they are the same market (with a huge number of people beeing in B).

The proper theory for the home console market in japan is that A is a subset of B.

So for you that didn't exists?

You can have a bigger part in the intersection.

 

[lwilliams3]

Why they ignored Wii U then? Look how successful that console was! 3 "million sellers" - more than on PS4/Vita combined

While the Wii U maintained their lead over the PS4 in Japan for over 2 years, it was already fading. It was even worse overseas. It didn't have much of a future, so they had to settle for the PS4 despite the issues.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

That venn diagram should cement this silly point of contention.

 

[Fisico]

I gave up reading somewhere in the middle of the previous page, everyone involved should give up posting also.
Worst part is that there doesn't even seem to be a disagreement or anything, just playing on words which makes it very confusing.

 

[Chris1964]

No one is saying they belong in another planet though. The point being made is not only simple but correct:

Handhelds and home consoles are different segments within the dedicated gaming market. Developers get this, publishers get this, I'm sure even you get this so why this is such a point of contention makes little sense.

I don't know what exactly you want to say and what's the point you get and I don't but no matter how different you think handhelds are from home consoles they belong to the same market and fight directly for consumers' money.

 

[Fdkn]

You understand that in the set theory, one of the premises is that the number of people solely in A and the number of people solely in B is greater (otherwise it wouldn't make sense) than the people in both A and B (the overlap).

The portion of your A gamers who would only game on a home console in Japan is so infinitely small that it becomes irrelevant. For all intents and purposes they are the same market (with a huge number of people beeing in B).

The proper theory for the home console market in japan is that A is a subset of B.

Edit : I'll go further. A and B are a subset of C, mobile phone gamers

I can't believe you made me go and open the freaking paint.

As negligible as you want the exclusive parts of the diagram to be, they still exist. There are products focusing only one, two or the three subsets of the market, so the distinction is viable and appropiate.

 

[Eolz]

I am really confuse about today topic now.

I think we're back to "Switch doesn't count because reasons" and "X numbers are actually great if you don't count Y".

 

[sinonobu]

What's going on in this thread lmao

 

[Gotdatmoney]

There is nothing wrong with accepting that there is a difference in buying base for handhelds vs consoles traditionally. But that has nothing to do with the idea that 2 million units for a console in Japan is impressive because it implies that no market disruption or product could ever spur interest in consoles again. The Wii was an example of a disruption. The Switch has decided to bridge the gap between console and portable.

Changes in technology and interesting new hardware and software can spur sales. It's such a lazy argument to suggest that where we are with consoles in Japan needs to remain as so forever. Consoles aren't doing poor in Japan only because they are consoles. Anyone who follows these threads absolutely knows this.

Don't get me wrong i don't think the cap is PS3PS4 .
Still i don't think we going to see anything like the PS1PS2 days .
Like you said one of the reason is software and for me other factors .

Okay. That's fine. I also agree that the nature of portables fit the Japanese lifestyle more and they have higher potential for sales. I don't see us reaching 20m units in the foreseeable future either. But what we have now is in no way the cap.

 

[Fularu]

I can't believe you made me go and open the freaking paint.



As negligible as you want the exclusive parts of the diagram to be, they still exist. There are products focusing only one, two or the three subsets of the market, so the distinction is viable and appropiate.

That part is negligible and you know it. All this semantic posturing to try and adress the dedicated home consoles market and the dedicated game handheld marlet is pointless. In the end, it's for all intents and purposes the same market, with the same kind of products targetting the same consumers. And by that metric the PS4 is a flop in Japan and isn't doing great, let alone fantastic, by any tangible metric. Meaningfull metric

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

That part is negligible and you know it. All this semantic posturing to try and adress the dedicated home consoles market and the dedicated game handheld marlet is pointless. In the end, it's for all intents and purposes the same market, with the same kind of products targetting the same consumers. And by that metric the PS4 is a flop in Japan and isn't doing great, let alone fantastic, by any tangible metric. Meaningfull metric

If there are exclusive regions then evidently its not the same market. No one really cares about your arbitrary labeling of success and flops.

 

[Jamix012]

In a dumb example...

Group A: 150 potential buyers only buys portables.
Group B: 50 potential buyers only buys consoles.
Group C: 250 potential buyers buys either portables or consoles.

You have clear different markets for potential sales for portables (400 dudes) and consoles (300 dudes).

Do we start doing this across brands of home consoles too?

Group A: 100 potential buyers only buy Sony platforms
Group B: 120 potential buyers only buy Nintendo platforms
Group C: 400 potential buyers buy either Nintendo or Sony platforms.

You have clear different markets for potential sales for Sony (500 dudes) and Nintendo (520 dudes.)

...But we still consider them the same market because of the overwhelming overlap.

I can't believe you made me go and open the freaking paint.



As negligible as you want the exclusive parts of the diagram to be, they still exist. There are products focusing only one, two or the three subsets of the market, so the distinction is viable and appropiate.

This is still ridiculous honestly. I could do the same and change the lines to "Home Electronics", "Dedicated Systems Released in Black", "Dedicated Systems Under $200." If we're going to make distinctions between these small subsets of people who will only ever buy one thing, we may as well draw even more arbitrary lines.

 

[Nibel]

I

I uhh

 

[Mpl90]

I

I uhh

It goes even more meta with "Everyday Struggle" on the mic.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

I can't believe you made me go and open the freaking paint.

RIP Paint. You shall be missed.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I mean you can talk about the overall market or different parts if you wanted .
You can bet companies do just that but some people will disagree with your break down .
Which is what happening here .

 

[hiska-kun]

I'm sorry to interrupt this fantastic discussion topic,

GamesMaya says that pre-orders of DQXI for PS4 and 3DS are on the same level. Pre-orders of 3DS version started to accelerate this week and the difference is almost non-existent (implying that PS4 was leading before).

No Switch restock planned for this week.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

I'm sorry to interrupt this fantastic discussion topic,

GamesMaya says that pre-orders of DQXI for PS4 and 3DS are on the same level. Pre-orders of 3DS version started to accelerate this week and the difference is almost non-existent (implying that PS4 was leading before).

No Switch restock planned for this week.

2 million opening coming.

 

[Jon Carter]

No Switch restock planned for this week.

Isn't that unusual? Hasn't there been a restock nearly every week so far? Sucks for our 3DS vs. Switch comparison.

 

[Ōkami]

Dengeki

First week shipment for Splatoon 2 was of 1.000.000 units, the one for Layton Mystery Journey was of 100.000 units.

Splatoon 2 ships in 3 days what the original did in 6 months.

Switch sees its biggest week for software yet and the first week since the launch of MHXX where over a million games were sold.

Switch software LTD at 2.5m, for comparison PS4 sold 2.3m in 2014, 1.9m not counting Knack, its also already higher than Vita totals by the end of 2012 and will end up higher than Wii U totals by the end of 2013.

3DS sold 7m in 2011.

Also, my posts yesterday were a missunderstanding, I just got last week's Famitsu by accident, this week's issue has plenty of sales information.

 

[Fdkn]

Do we start doing this across brands of home consoles too?

Group A: 100 potential buyers only buy Sony platforms
Group B: 120 potential buyers only buy Nintendo platforms
Group C: 400 potential buyers buy either Nintendo or Sony platforms.

You have clear different markets for potential sales for Sony (500 dudes) and Nintendo (520 dudes.)

...But we still consider them the same market because of the overwhelming overlap.

I guess this concludes the problem of asking for ports. If a game is released on a system it can reach the whole audience without the need of releasing on multiple platforms. All this time companies have been wasting money on multiplatform with negligible gains.

That is obviously sarcasm

The overlap is not that big to make the market homogeneous.