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Media Create Sales: Week 36, 2014 (Sep 01 - Sep 07)

You're asking why a console with unappealing games isn't keeping up with a console with domestically appealing and highly sought after games?

Just look at the the list of games on both platforms, from a Japanese perspective. That's your answer.

Highly sought after that the Ps4 has basically gotten nearly half of the Wii U's LTD in a shorter amount of time? I mean, I guess one could say it has more appealing games.

It may be just the head start honestly. Especially since the Wii didn't die for 3 years in japan like everywhere else.
 

Opiate

Member
This is not entirely true, though. Amazon has the same business model of most brick and mortar stores, that is wholesale pricing contract; the company largely acts as a reseller, by buying products from suppliers and selling to consumers, and setting retail prices. The main source of revenues comes, therefore, from margins over suppliers' prices.

Amazon has no physical retail outlets and delivers all of the products by mail. Saying "they have some similarities to traditional retail outlets" does not mean the business models are the same. There are almost no business models that literally share nothing in common. If that's your threshold for "different business model," then no company in the world has a business model that is different from any other.

NBC and Youtube both deliver visual media to consumers and make a profit through advertising. Steam and Gamestop both provide consumers with video games and related products. Using this technique, I have now convinced myself that the internet did not change business models at all.
 

jonno394

Member
Highly sought after that the Ps4 has basically gotten nearly half of the Wii U's LTD in a shorter amount of time? I mean, I guess one could say it has more appealing games.

It may be just the head start honestly. Especially since the Wii didn't die for 3 years in japan like everywhere else.

You mean just over 1/3. It's around 300k behind and looking at the current pace, it's going to take a long time to make that up...

edit - also after 7 months on the market Wii U was at 960.288....so where are you getting the "shorter amount of time" stats from...
 
Amazon has no physical retail outlets and delivers all of the products by mail. Saying "they have some similarities to traditional retail outlets" does not mean the business models are the same. There are almost no business models that literally share nothing in common. If that's your threshold for "different business model," then no company in the world has a business model that is different from any other.

NBC and Youtube both deliver visual media to consumers and make a profit through advertising. Steam and Gamestop both provide consumers with video games and related products. Using this technique, I have now convinced myself that the internet did not change business models at all.

Well, it also depends on the definition of business model we would like to use and apply. I was considering more how companies generate revenues in terms of pricing decisions and processes (which is basically the main difference between traditional and mobile video games), then Amazon is really no different than BestBuy. Of course there are huge differences in how value is created, but Amazon is a reseller exactly as BestBuy. This is to say that comparisons between the two might make more sense with respect to console vs. mobile.

Indeed, Amazon really implemented the same pricing method was popular in physical markets. The agency model, i.e. the Marketplace, is a quite new addition that Amazon took from C2C businesses, and introduced in 2002, so 7 years after it opened. Steam and Gamestop have different pricing policies: the former takes a cut of revenues from video game companies (that are free to choose retail prices), while the latter still adds a markup over the wholesale price set by suppliers.
 
You mean just over 1/3. It's around 300k behind and looking at the current pace, it's going to take a long time to make that up...

edit - also after 7 months on the market Wii U was at 960.288....so where are you getting the "shorter amount of time" stats from...

I had assumed the Wii was in a similar first year situation that it was in most other countries. But it seems that is not the case here. So looks like the PS4 messed up their launch.

Like I said in my last post it seems like Nintendo will win both fields to gens in a row in japan, Handheld and Console.
 

duckroll

Member
Well, it also depends on the definition of business model we would like to use and apply. I was considering more how companies generate revenues in terms of pricing decisions and processes (which is basically the main difference between traditional and mobile video games), then Amazon is really no different than BestBuy. Of course there are huge differences in how value is created, but Amazon is a reseller exactly as BestBuy. This is to say that comparisons between the two might make more sense with respect to console vs. mobile.

This is untrue. Amazon is very different from BestBuy even though they "sell the same things". They are more similar to consumers, but from a business perspective they the difference is much wider. BestBuy has to worry about shelf space, store rental, location, and numerous factors related to geographical positioning and stock. Amazon on the other hand, has infinite shelf space, no store rental, and their customer base is not tied geographically. They stock items in warehouses, which is a significant difference from requiring each outlet to be stocked and for stock to be displayed on shelves.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
sörine;129331892 said:
It's certainly possible, I won't deny Wii U not exactly being the most attractive platform these days. Even though DQX's done remarkably well on it.

I ask mainly because it's well known you have connections to Square Enix PR so I wanted to know if your statement that DQX might have have some sort of console exclusivity clause comes from something you've heard specifically from trusted sources or if it's simply your evaluation based on where DQX has actually shown up? Or both?

I was talking to someone reliable and the word was basically no... not going to show up on PS systems, at least not anytime soon.
 
This is untrue. Amazon is very different from BestBuy even though they "sell the same things". They are more similar to consumers, but from a business perspective they the difference is much wider. BestBuy has to worry about shelf space, store rental, location, and numerous factors related to geographical positioning and stock. Amazon on the other hand, has infinite shelf space, no store rental, and their customer base is not tied geographically. They stock items in warehouses, which is a significant difference from requiring each outlet to be stocked and for stock to be displayed on shelves.

Of course there are differences that stem from the fact that one is a physical retailer and the other one is a digital retailer. I was talking specifically about pricing models and contractual agreements over non-contractible decisions (such as, indeed, retail prices) with suppliers; in this sense, they are very similar, and comparable. Then of course, saying business model is saying a lot of things, and in many elements the two companies widely differ (as you say, how much risk they bear, customer base, etc.). \

Since we were talking about video games, I was thinking it was adequate to talk specifically about pricing models; it is true that mobile video games have an intrinsic difference with respect to console gaming which is tied with its digital nature. The main difference, in my opinion, is how money are generated, and how much power video game companies have in setting prices.

Anyway, I didn't want to derail the thread, and probably I didn't explain myself very well. In sum, I do think some data about the mobile market will be of great interest; I don't think it's possible to draw many comparisons, though.
 

extralite

Member
I was talking to someone reliable and the word was basically no... not going to show up on PS systems, at least not anytime soon.

That in no way implies an exclusivity agreement though.

If SE would want to avoid DQX and FFXIV to cannibalize each other, especially in FFXIV's first year on PS4, that would also result in DQX not coming to PS systems anytime soon.
 

crinale

Member
That in no way implies an exclusivity agreement though.

If SE would want to avoid DQX and FFXIV to cannibalize each other, especially in FFXIV's first year on PS4, that would also result in DQX not coming to PS systems anytime soon.

I don't know this has been discussed but DQX guy tweeted that by enabling cloud mode (i.e. like today's 3DS version), basically any platform can play DQX, except for some platforms for reasons they can't disclose. It was about a year ago but a lot of Japanese gamers speculated they aren't supposed to release DQX to any console platform other than Nintendo.
 

extralite

Member
I don't know this has been discussed but DQX guy tweeted that by enabling cloud mode (i.e. like today's 3DS version), basically any platform can play DQX, except for some platforms for reasons they can't disclose. It was about a year ago but a lot of Japanese gamers speculated they aren't supposed to release DQX to any console platform other than Nintendo.

Of course you can speculate. It definitely is possible. It is also possible that there is another reason, like avoiding cannibalization. Point is, we don't know.

The question remains though, if there is an exclusivity agreement, why don't they say so outright? Why the need to make a secret out of it?
 

duckroll

Member
Of course you can speculate. It definitely is possible. It is also possible that there is another reason, like avoiding cannibalization. Point is, we don't know.

The question remains though, if there is an exclusivity agreement, why don't they say so outright? Why the need to make a secret out of it?

It's not uncommon in Japan that any sort of deal which goes on behind the scenes is not publicized or talked about. Not just exclusivity, but things like internal disagreements, staff departure, etc. They don't like drawing attention to company operations so they just don't talk about it at all.
 

boingball

Member
MS: The Xbox One, The All Entertainment System is off to a great start. It sold more in three days than all competing home consoles (incl. our own 360) together.

While this looks nice for MS it is quite a slow start. I doubt they well sell 500k over the lifetime of the xbone.
 

Longsword

Member
Bad numbers all around, yay for Youkai Watch 2, the worst big-name console debut for XB1 I think I've ever seen for a major territory.

Honestly, posting the iOS and Android Top Grossing lists would give us far better indicator what is going on in the Japanese games market.
 
Damn @ Yoko Watch 2. I mean, I expected it to be a million seller, but didn't expect it to keep chugging along like it is this long after release. Nintendo's already probably trying to lock up the next one for the 3DS' successor (not New 3DS).
 
Damn @ Yoko Watch 2. I mean, I expected it to be a million seller, but didn't expect it to keep chugging along like it is this long after release. Nintendo's already probably trying to lock up the next one for the 3DS' successor (not New 3DS).

Successor? This is level5 we are talking about, the next one will be out next summer on 3ds
 

Rolf NB

Member
You mean just over 1/3. It's around 300k behind and looking at the current pace, it's going to take a long time to make that up...

edit - also after 7 months on the market Wii U was at 960.288....so where are you getting the "shorter amount of time" stats from...
One christmas vs zero is kind of lopsided from the start.

But yeah, they totally messed up their Japanese software lineup. Driveclub would have helped for sure. Capcom not delaying Deep Down forever might have had some potential, too.

After Metal Gear GZ and FF XIV, I'm struggling to think of any traditionally appealing games for Japan that are already out. It's just not enough yet. A Musou here and there hardly moves the needle...
 

ZSaberLink

Media Create Maven
I am sure tecmo is seriously considering dropping support because a 6 month old port with no meaningful upgrade rereleased at full price didn't sell like crazy....man some of you really seem salty because tecmo considers their fanbase exists on playstation and releases their games on it more often. when a new game releases only on ps4 and the numbers are bad then we can start questioning them. if the same old port released on wii u it probably wouldn't even show up on the chart.


well they are making money on the ps3 and vita versions and probably being given some sort of discount by sony for putting it on all 3 platforms. on the nintendo side the only other alternative is 3ds so i guess they are hedging their bets on the right platform? plus they are releasing overseas on all platforms next month



i am not sure if he meant to call koei fanboys :) but i could be wrong.

No offense, but the Wii U ports did about the same as the PS4 versions so far. Imo, that shows they should support the Wii U as well as the PS4 until one clearly starts selling a lot more (or just continue because both sell).

WIU Hyrule Warriors 78,773 109,482 Koei Tecmo 2014-08-14 (first non-port)?
WIU Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper 6,184 35,000 Koei Tecmo 2012-12-08
WIU Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage 2 6,241 11,301 Koei Tecmo 2013-01-31

PS4 Dynasty Warriors 8 with Xtreme Legends 13,576 40,823 Koei Tecmo 2014-02-22
PS4 Warriors Orochi 3 Ultimate 7,129 11,852 Koei Tecmo 2014-06-26
PS4 Samurai Warriors 4 10,672 10,672 Koei Tecmo 2014-09-04
PS4 Nobunaga's Ambition: Souzou 3,903 3,903 Koei Tecmo 2014-02-22

At the very least, this should be enough of an argument for Nintendo to get more Warriors games to the Wii U imo. Sure the PS3 games still sell, and that audience will move somewhere, but in the meantime PS4 sales and Wii U sales aren't that different (until DQHeroes or something).

Hyrule Warriors also just passed DKC: Tropical Freeze in terms of sales that we're aware of.

Darius;129312704 Yes said:
Yeh it seems that way.
 

allan-bh

Member
Media Create is not counting the bundled copies of the Xbox One Kinect Day One Edition (Titanfall / Kinect Sports Rivals / Dance Central Spotlight). So their Titanfall number includes only the Xbox One Day One Edition.

Nice of them to actually put out an explanation.

Media Create: (Titanfall standalone) + (Xbox One Day One Edition) = 8,961.
Famitsu: (Titanfall standalone) + (Xbox One Day One Edition) + (Xbox+Kinect Day One Edition) = 22,416

What is the logic to include a bundle and not the other?
 
You mean just over 1/3. It's around 300k behind and looking at the current pace, it's going to take a long time to make that up...

edit - also after 7 months on the market Wii U was at 960.288....so where are you getting the "shorter amount of time" stats from...

I think its important to note that this will likely be ps4's worst year for sales and WiiU's best.
 

Jamix012

Member
I think its important to note that this will likely be ps4's worst year for sales and WiiU's best.

Eh, it's possible PS4 won't be up in 2015, the launch numbers skew this year's numbers to be higher than it's weekly sales suggest. 2016 will almost certainly be a better year. It's also not even certain by any means that Wii U will be up on last year either.
 
Eh, it's possible PS4 won't be up in 2015, the launch numbers skew this year's numbers to be higher than it's weekly sales suggest. 2016 will almost certainly be a better year. It's also not even certain by any means that Wii U will be up on last year either.

I think the software is so much stronger next year compared to this year that the launch won't be able to make up for it. And I didn't even realize wiiU might not top last year, I figured with smash bros and mario kart it would be a given.
 
Odd week. YW2 doing great still which is nice

3DS holding well relatively. XB1 bomba even more than I expected. Vita is struggling again. Wii U back down probably until holidays/Smash? PS4 is somehow up? I guess Pre-TGS show? Not too much though.

Wonder where Hyrule warriors will finish
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
All in all, Hyrule Warriors has been doing fine so far. 110,000 according to Famitsu. I'm also curious about its digital numbers since we'd know the low bar of Wii U's All Time Chart Japanese top 20. Don't know if it'll get to reach 150,000 units...hopefully, it'll do that.

Now, time to fear Bayonetta 2's failure! :(
 
Bad numbers all around, yay for Youkai Watch 2, the worst big-name console debut for XB1 I think I've ever seen for a major territory.

Honestly, posting the iOS and Android Top Grossing lists would give us far better indicator what is going on in the Japanese games market.
Anecdotally, Top 100 Grossing on iOS tends to remain relatively static, so uhh I hope you like watching P&D/Monstrike/DISNEY TSUMU TSUMU/White Cat Project top the charts for the next couple of weeks/months

Even more anecdotally, it was such a huge deal when Monstrike beat out PAD in Top Grossing that GungHo bribed players to reclaim the top spot, but nowadays it seems to happen weekly depending on what event happens to be running in either game.
 

Chris1964

Sales-Age Genius
Sellthrough for XB1 titles that charted is 40-60% and I doubt retailers ordered much for the other titles. Everyone was expecting this kind of failure, we are probably looking at a LTD way below 500k for the system.
 

Jamix012

Member
I think the software is so much stronger next year compared to this year that the launch won't be able to make up for it. And I didn't even realize wiiU might not top last year, I figured with smash bros and mario kart it would be a given.

The traditional console market is seemingly on a never ending decline that the Wii U could end up down YoY this year with it's 2 strongest games in the same way the PS4 could end up down YoY next year despite getting some stronger games.
 

ZSaberLink

Media Create Maven
I think the software is so much stronger next year compared to this year that the launch won't be able to make up for it. And I didn't even realize wiiU might not top last year, I figured with smash bros and mario kart it would be a given.

If most of those games were exclusives then sure. It's just a bunch more multiplats. DQHeroes is also on PS3, God Eater is nice to get, but it's on Vita. So far the only confirmed big exclusive in the next 6 months is still BloodBorne right? While having cross-plat titles is clearly better than nothing, we have no idea whether it'll be enough by itself to get the PS4 selling.
 
Sellthrough for XB1 titles that charted is 40-60% and I doubt retailers ordered much for the other titles. Everyone was expecting this kind of failure, we are probably looking at a LTD way below 500k for the system.
wow.. guess we will see more PS4 only releases in Japan.
 

BKK

Member
Annual (FY) Home Console Hardware Shipments:

Code:
	Total	           Nintendo	      Sega	        Sony**	          NEC	         Matsushita	Microsoft      Pioneer	     Others

[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/home-videogame-machine-shipments-  rise-in-2001--313309"]2002 03[/URL]	7,710,000 (+52.1%) 1,620,000* (21.0%)   200,000 (02.6%)	5,640,000 (73.2%)  -	             -	        250,000 (03.2%)	  -	       -
[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/sony-unit-leads-games-machine-  market-in-2000--275040"]2001 03[/URL]	5,070,000 (-06.8%)   200,000* (04.0%)   470,000 (09.2%)	4,400,000 (86.7%)  -	             -	            -	          -	      10,000 (00.1%)
[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/videogame-machine-shipments-down-  111-in-fy-1999--225301"]2000 03[/URL]	5,440,000 (-11.1%)   940,000* (17.2%)   950,000 (17.4%)	3,550,000 (65.3%)  -	             -	            -	          -	      10,000 (00.1%)
1999 03	6,120,000 (-16.2%) 1,310,000  (21.4%) 1,050,000 (17.1%)	3,750,000 (61.2%)  ?	             -              -	          -	      20,000 (00.3%)
[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/sony-heads-home-video-games-  market--144137"]1998 03[/URL]	7,300,000 (-20.2%) 1,330,000  (18.1%)   800,000 (10.9%)	5,010,000 (68.3%)  ?	             ?	            -	          -	     200,000 (02.7%)
[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/games-console-sales-rise-628-in-  fy-1996--114375"]1997 03[/URL]	9,200,000 (+62.8%) 2,730,000  (29.7%) 2,300,000 (25.0%)	4,000,000 (43.4%)  50,000 (0.5%)  60,000 (0.7%)     -	          -	      60,000 (00.7%)
[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/home-video-game-machine-shipments-  rise--85713"]1996 03[/URL]	5,650,000 (+06.8%) 1,860,000  (32.9%) 1,690,000 (29.9%)	1,700,000 (29.2%) 140,000 (2.5%) 250,000 (4.4%)	    -	          ?	      60,000 (01.1%)
[URL="http://www.telecompaper.com/news/nintendo-sees-share-of-video-game-  market-down-20--64463"]1995 03[/URL]	5,290,000 (+07.9%) 2,930,000  (55.4%) 1,010,000 (19.1%)	  800,000 (15.1%)  ?	             ?	            -	          ?	     550,000 (10.4%)
[URL="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=118250312&postcount=417"]1994 03[/URL]	4,900,000	   3,650,000  (75.4%)   550,000 (11.5%)	   -	           ?	          40,000 (0.8%)	    -          42,000 (0.9%) 560,000 (11.4%)
[URL="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=109677934&postcount=581"]1993 03[/URL]		           4,890,000	        480,000 	   -	          670,000     	     -	            -	          -	

*Excluding NES & SNES
** Production shipments, "1997 03" onwards include shipments to Asian countries and regions including South Korea.

Source: Nihon Keizai Shimbun (Nikkei)
 

sörine

Banned
Why are you surprised? There's numerous of established high selling IPs in Japan on the Wii U. The PS4 has 3 notable games for that market and they're all cross-gen launch titles (Yakuza Ishin, FF14 port, and MGS demo). There's no reason why the Wii U shouldn't be outselling the PS4 in Japan even if it's by 100.

Another way to look at it. Bloodborne will be the first big PS4 exclusive for the Japanese market. That's a year after it launched...lol
It took Wii U quite awhile to get big exclusives too though. It had NSMBU and Nintendo Land at launch but after that it was basically 9 months until Pikmin 3.
 
Damn @ Yoko Watch 2. I mean, I expected it to be a million seller, but didn't expect it to keep chugging along like it is this long after release. Nintendo's already probably trying to lock up the next one for the 3DS' successor (not New 3DS).
I don't believe they need to worry about that.
 

Chris1964

Sales-Age Genius
Damn @ Yoko Watch 2. I mean, I expected it to be a million seller, but didn't expect it to keep chugging along like it is this long after release. Nintendo's already probably trying to lock up the next one for the 3DS' successor (not New 3DS).

I don't see how that is possible with YW3 coming 99% next year going by Level 5 standards.
 

extralite

Member
It's not uncommon in Japan that any sort of deal which goes on behind the scenes is not publicized or talked about. Not just exclusivity, but things like internal disagreements, staff departure, etc. They don't like drawing attention to company operations so they just don't talk about it at all.

Well by definition a behind the scenes deal is not publicized or talked about, or it will stop being behind the scenes. This isn't specific to Japan.

Saito's exact words in that tweet are "with cloud technology the choices of platforms become endless (grown up circumstances aside)". This could imply obligations to Nintendo, it could also imply not wanting to cannibalize sales. My interpretation being: "We can now bring it anywhere, but of course there are circumstances to consider so we won't bring it everywhere." Obligations, financial interest, both would qualify as grown up circumstances.

If it refers to a "behind the scenes deal" he did talk about it here (hint at it) and also drew attention to it.

It is funny that some people answer to the tweet by asking for a PS3 version when it should be clear that the PS3 wouldn't need a cloud version. So he was probably talking about the 3DS already.

I think they went with the Wii and Wii U as originally anounced platforms because they came from the DS installment and Nintendo was the market leader on both sides. MH3 was a very successful sub fee based online game and PS3 couldn't claim dominance in that field either. No handheld was fit to run an MMO. Going with Nintendo, and with their console was a natural choice.

Since then they kept adding a new platform roughly every 6 months and I'm sure they will keep doing this. Sony platforms will be up for consideration sooner or later. There aren't that many left either. Bringing it overseas (an option which they are currently examining) or to more smart devices (not just Docomo) are the few choices I can think of before they will go to Sony.

Of course, the 3DS could bring in new subscribers over a longer time frame than PC or Docomo did (and also drive sales of the other versions) so maybe the next platform announcement will take more than 6 months this time.
 
Home console market last gen was sitting at 24(ish) million units. Down a million and a half units from the gen prior.

I don't see much likelihood that the home console market exceeds 10 million units this gen. Probably under that by a few million units. At it's current pace WiiU could be at 3.2-3.5 million units heading into year six.

PS4 I'm giving some leeway. I think it will likely be the market leader because of MGS, KH, and FF. But with the floor it has starting off I don't expect much but sizable bumps. At it's current pace getting to 3 million units in six years would be a miracle, but I project five to six million units in year six. Because of sizable, but not sustained software related bumps.

One isn't going to get to 500,000 units. It doesn't have the luxury of a MS related push this gen like 360 did the gen before. This would all be very bad on its own if it wasn't for the massive contraction going on in handheld land. Home consoles are likely to lose at least half of the prior gens unit sell through. Handhelds are looking to lose a good a little less than half.

This doesn't make gaming dead in Japan. Just "traditional" gaming. Gaming tied to a dedicated console.

I wonder what the market is going to look like for the next round of dedicated players. Nintendo's next handheld in Japan is going to tell us a lot.
 

duckroll

Member
Saito's exact words in that tweet are "with cloud technology the choices of platforms become endless (grown up circumstances aside)". This could imply obligations to Nintendo, it could also imply not wanting to cannibalize sales. My interpretation being: "We can now bring it anywhere, but of course there are circumstances to consider so we won't bring it everywhere." Obligations, financial interest, both would qualify as grown up circumstances.

Just a clarification here. 大人の事情 does not mean "grown up circumstances". That is not how the phrase is used in Japanese. It is the literal meaning of the characters but the phrase is used to saying "things I cannot talk about". His statement is that other than stuff he cannot disclose, in theory the cloud system would allow the game to be on any platform.
 

Scum

Junior Member
...

This doesn't make gaming dead in Japan. Just "traditional" gaming. Gaming tied to a dedicated console.
I wonder what the market is going to look like for the next round of dedicated players. Nintendo's next handheld in Japan is going to tell us a lot.

Iwata should go "Yamauchi" on his board, think on a global scale and get an iOS-ification thing ag'wan. OS as the platform, throw in some mobile shenanigans and then synergy with multiple 201X hardware.

You can laugh at me now.

Just a clarification here. 大人の事情 does not mean "grown up circumstances". That is not how the phrase is used in Japanese. It is the literal meaning of the characters but the phrase is used to saying "things I cannot talk about". His statement is that other than stuff he cannot disclose, in theory the cloud system would allow the game to be on any platform.

It'll work on Level5, but not this time. :p
 
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