Medicare for All Is Even Better Than You Thought

Nov 23, 2010
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#1
https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/medicare-for-all-study-peri-sanders

Medicare for All advocates just received an early holiday present: a new study from the Political Economy Research Institute (PERI) at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst finds that single-payer health care will save the US $5.1 trillion over a decade while drastically cutting working-class Americans’ health spending. It’s the most robust, comprehensive study yet produced on Medicare for All, which has long been in need of easily citable research.

The study analyzes Sen. Bernie Sanders’s Medicare for All Act from top to bottom, elaborating on several key aspects of the bill, including what the transition to a fully public, comprehensive, free-at-the-point-of-use health care system might look like and what impact the program will have on US residents. Most significantly, it answers the most common question single-payer advocates face: “How will we pay for it?”
I don't know about you all, but I hate paying more than I need to for stuff.

Why do Americans look down on socialized medicine? Seems like it would be the perfect present for Christmas for many families.
 
Feb 1, 2017
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I used to say "he guys, it works just fine in Europe" until I've figured Canada also had universal healthcare.
So, hey, look at Canadians!

I think there is psychological problem Americans have with "wait, it means I'll be paying for others".

I'm banned on twitter.
I'm impressed, given your views (no sarcasm).
 

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#9
I'd like to spend some time validating this when I get the time. I wonder where all the savings will come from? All the new patients? All the unnecessary appointments and procedures because now it's "free"? All the price gouging for medicine because now it's automatically paid? I wonder...
 
Mar 23, 2018
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#10
I'd like to spend some time validating this when I get the time. I wonder where all the savings will come from? All the new patients? All the unnecessary appointments and procedures because now it's "free"? All the price gouging for medicine because now it's automatically paid? I wonder...
You put a paywall in front of it.

For example, the first 400 euro's of healthcare you pay yourself after you paid that everything is free. So you wanna save 400 bucks this year? don't go to the doctor if you don't need to go there.

I got the flue, shall i just sit it out or shall i let me get checked by the doctor? yea i like my money i won't get it checked out.

Now you get a accident and break a leg, you pay 400 bucks and done deal. You get cancer or a heart disease, you pay 400 bucks and zero costs after that.

Works like a boss.
 
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Sep 4, 2018
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#11
i've been waiting for health care reform since the 90s. i remember Hillary beating that drum 30 years ago. since then we've had the "great" ACA and things still suck.

i went to the doctor once last year, paid the ~$900 bill the day of the visit, and am still getting calls from a debt collector wanting $1,700 more dollars. my insurance had lapsed because even if you have insurance, you automatically get kicked off of it and if you don't sign up during the open enrollment window, you are shit out of luck, no insurance for the next year, and you cannot buy through your employer even if you want. plus you have to pay the mandatory fee. so now a third party is holding the threat of docking my pay and i am scared to go to any follow ups in case i incur additional thousands of dollars as a result of another (single) doctor visit. im now signed up for insurance but it won't kick in until next year and they don't want to have anything to do with my current billing issue.

im backing M4A. if that doesn't work, then they need to figure out something that does work. tbh i don't care how they do it or where the money comes from. they are the leaders they need to figure that out. i'm sick of watching the defense, finance, and car industries get endless bailouts while i have to avoid going to the doctor bc it might bankrupt me.
 
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#12
You put a paywall in front of it.

For example, the first 400 euro's of healthcare you pay yourself after you paid that everything is free. So you wanna save 400 bucks this year? don't go to the doctor if you don't need to go there.

I got the flue, shall i just sit it out or shall i let me get checked by the doctor? yea i like my money i won't get it checked out.

Now you get a accident and break a leg, you pay 400 bucks and done deal. You get cancer or a heart disease, you pay 400 bucks and zero costs after that.

Works like a boss.
That seems kind of backwards and completely ineffective... for a variety of reasons...

It certainly won't help with people overusing the system since they'll prolly have to visit the doctor ONCE and then everything after that is free so what's the difference to them? And if you're not going to the doctor at all during the year, now you're missing out on the preventative care this plan banks on... and you're probably poor if you're that worried about that money that you don't go to the doctor all year. Nothing about the above plan makes sense...
 
Mar 23, 2018
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#13
That seems kind of backwards and completely ineffective... for a variety of reasons...

It certainly won't help with people overusing the system since they'll prolly have to visit the doctor ONCE and then everything after that is free so what's the difference to them? And if you're not going to the doctor at all during the year, now you're missing out on the preventative care this plan banks on... and you're probably poor if you're that worried about that money that you don't go to the doctor all year. Nothing about the above plan makes sense...
Makes perfect sense, as that's how they do it in the Netherlands.

Preventive screen ups can be excluded and done once a year, Netherlands doesn't have anything like that but i hear northern country's do. So you can just exclude that from it if you want to do it from the 400 bucks and rise premiums to cover it.

To get to 400 bucks here you need to visit the doctor a bunch of times,

Description Maximum rate
Consultant shorter than 20 minutes € 27.63
Consultant passant 20 minutes and longer € 54.27
Visite passant shorter than 20 minutes € 41.45
Visite passant 20 minutes and longer € 69.08
Telephone consultation by passant € 13.82
Vaccination passant € 13.82

You won't be visiting it once and get 400 already billed. Just alter that amount towards whatever floats there boat in the US. And you won't be moving into a doctor office anymore unnecessary. However if you do got a problem that costs a lot then yea you got free healthcare from that point on which isn't a issue.

The money is also based on each person and comes on top of 100-250 premium depending on what you want extra with it that you pay each month for.

Europe country's are extensive testing healthcare already for a while now and probably tried every single way of doing things and put it in practise by now. They should honestly start looking oversea's instead of trying to reinvent a wheel every single time.
 
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Aug 17, 2018
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#14
Too many selfish assholes

“Well I got a job with insurance why should I have to pay for other”

Bootstrap bullshit

They are ignorant to the fact we already to pay for uninsured, but in a way more inefficient way

Universal healthcare can’t come soon enough
I'm a supporter of privatised healthcare with government intervention in cases of malpractice or fraud.

The system is only as good as the legislation that is passed to govern it. I'm in the UK and can tell you that in many places the NHS is a shit show (This is the system considered best in the world for universal healthcare). Waiting months for appointments and routine operations.

Legislation that governs these social healthcare systems is generally very rigid and cannot adapt to changes in demand or in procedure fast enough due to it being a political football.

Healthcare should be devolved to the state level in the USA. If certain states can prove that a health insurance tax works then more power to them. This also gives more power to the voter and strengthens democracy.
 

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#17
What are the differences in the USA that would produce such problems, where it does not in Netherlands or Germany?

Medicare for all is the only sensible choice.
There are tons of differences but they are all irrelevant to this point, the paywall "fix" doesn't do anything as I've already outlined... our rates aren't nearly that low either lmfao

I'm not taking a stance one way or another, as I've said I'm waiting to become educated on where they think all that savings will come from before I take a position...
 
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Mar 18, 2018
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What are the differences in the USA that would produce such problems, where it does not in Netherlands or Germany?

Medicare for all is the only sensible choice.
Population. Dietary norms. Size. Population needs per state. We could probably enumerate this for days. Supply and demand of specialized doctors to injuries geographically. You could iterate a never ending list. If the state would be the arbiters of implementing the details why do you think that would be any better than privatization if you fixed the areas that should be regulated... like big pharma.l?
 
Nov 11, 2018
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Jun 26, 2018
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Aug 24, 2016
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#22
I like how on multiple subjects it's never "let's create something new that works better than everything" it's either A or B. So socialism and socialized medicine failed decades ago, and the current system was better, now that the current system is starting to flounder why is it that the ONLY option people present is the option that failed decades ago?
 

Cybrwzrd

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Sep 29, 2014
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Because we have heard too many horror stories about it. No thanks. I have no problem paying for quality care for me and my family. I'm not waiting for routine service.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallyp...e-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#3c31d6313e7d
You need to find a better source than some shill's Forbes blog who works for the Pacific Research Institute.

I am going to straight up tell you this - if you don't support single payer you are at least one of these things; intellectually challenged, morally bankrupt, or work in the medical billing/private insurance industry.

Insurance premiums have been a major contributor to middle class wage stagnation. Because of the decentralized nature of our healthcare system, providers don't have to publish pricing, or compete. They also have a massive overhead baked in to support medical claims billing. We waste billions on middlemen.
 

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#24
if you don't support single payer you are at least one of these things; intellectually challenged, morally bankrupt, or work in the medical billing/private insurance industry.
Way to destroy any credibility you may have had on the subject...
 
Jun 26, 2018
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#25
You need to find a better source than some shill's Forbes blog who works for the Pacific Research Institute.
There a number of sources and stories that illustrate the low level of service an individual receives when administrated by the government. And they all tell similar tales of long waits and frustrating customer service. I am not interested in that. I have no problem paying for quality health care. So why not leave that option available for people who want it? Others like you can select a government administered public option.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#27
Way to destroy any credibility you may have had on the subject...
Naw, sorry. I am tired of this debate. There is no stance supporting status quo that is worthy of the dignity of being treated like a valid opinion. We don't give flat earthers or time cube believers the dignity of the adult's table either.

There a number of sources and stories that illustrate the low level of service an individual receives when administrated by the government. And they all tell similar tales of long waits and frustrating customer service. I am not interested in that. I have no problem paying for quality health care. So why not leave that option available for people who want it? Others like you can select a government administered public option.
How much do you pay for your "quality" care? I pay for quality care that I can't afford to use unless absolutely necessary. My company gives me a high deductible plan, and between their contribution and my contribution for a family I'm losing out on 18K in income a year, and I on top of that I still have to pay out a 3k family deductable/6k family out of pocket max a year. It is a rip off.

You do know that you can supplement a single payer system with private insurance to provide "better" care? That is where things like AFLAC come in, they are actually pretty big in Japan, you know?
 
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#28
Naw, sorry. I am tired of this debate.
Don't be sorry, it's only your credibility on the line...

How much do you pay for your "quality" care? I pay for quality care that I can't afford to use unless absolutely necessary. My company gives me a high deductible plan, and between their contribution and my contribution for a family I'm losing out on 18K in income a year, and I still have to pay out a 3k family deductable/6k family out of pocket max a year. It is a rip off.
Sounds like you're a very poor consumer. Try looking into other options, the free market allows for lots of competition and there's gotta be someone doing it better than your current provider... Then again ever since Obamacare it's kinda hard to call it a free market anymore...
 
Jan 12, 2009
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#30
Don't be sorry, it's only your credibility on the line...


Sounds like you're a very poor consumer. Try looking into other options, the free market allows for lots of competition and there's gotta be someone doing it better than your current provider... Then again ever since Obamacare it's kinda hard to call it a free market anymore...
Do you know how employer insurance works?

Do you know that if you don't use theirs and get your own you'll be paying more than 18k for the same plan, all out of pocket, and you won't get extra salary.

You can't hand-wave it off.
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#31
Don't be sorry, it's only your credibility on the line...


Sounds like you're a very poor consumer. Try looking into other options, the free market allows for lots of competition and there's gotta be someone doing it better than your current provider... Then again ever since Obamacare it's kinda hard to call it a free market anymore...

I'm a poor consumer?

I mentioned that I have employer provided healthcare right? What choices do I have? Why would I forego my employer provided plan to go to the open market for a plan that would be even more expensive?

Obamacare is a shitshow, but the market was not "free" before it either.



See line 12c - DD above? It is for 9800.57 in this example W-2. That is your cost of insurance line. As in how much salary you are missing out on because it is instead going to an insurance company. Yes, our taxes would go up with single payer. But I guarantee they won't go up as much as the tax on salaries that the insurance industry takes already.
 
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#32
Do you know how employer insurance works?

Do you know that if you don't use theirs and get your own you'll be paying more than 18k for the same plan, all out of pocket, and you won't get extra salary.

You can't hand-wave it off.
I'm a poor consumer?

I mentioned that I have employer provided healthcare right? What choices do I have? Why would I forego my employer provided plan to go to the open market for a plan that would be even more expensive?

Obamacare is a shitshow, but the market was not "free" before it either.
It's almost like you're not allowed to get a new job or something... or talk to your employer about their choices of coverage...

And you're right, the health market is incredibly over regulated and the free market has been shit for decades, but that's not something even MORE regulation is gonna fix...
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#33
It's almost like you're not allowed to get a new job or something... or talk to your employer about their choices of coverage...

Those that do, do... those that don't, complain...
I have a competitive health care plan. It is actually a good plan. That's why it is so expensive. Better than most in the US. I also work for a large company, how am I going to have influence on our insurance program selected by our HR drones? I guarantee you are paying the same if you have a semi-decent employer provided plan.

It is going to cost roughly the same even if I go to another company.
 
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#34
I have a competitive health care plan. It is actually a good plan. That's why it is so expensive. Better than most in the US. I also work for a large company, how am I going to have influence on our insurance program selected by our HR drones? I guarantee you are paying the same if you have a semi-decent employer provided plan.

It is going to cost roughly the same even if I go to another company.
My insurance is WAY better than yours. I have no deductables and I pay about half of what you pay. But then again my employer may be paying more, I'm not sure tbh. Either way, there are options. You should have influence in your company if you are a valuable employee, why don't you try instead of just complaining?
 

Cybrwzrd

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#35
My insurance is WAY better than yours. I have no deductables and I pay about half of what you pay. But then again my employer may be paying more, I'm not sure tbh. Either way, there are options. You should have influence in your company if you are a valuable employee, why don't you try instead of just complaining?
I'm not paying that total out of pocket. That is the total cost of my healthplan. Including what my employer contributes and what I contribute.

Go look at your W2 and tell me how much you are paying.


So you don't have to pay anything if you visit the doctor? Do you have co-insurance?
 
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#36
Go look at your W2 and tell me how much they are paying.


So you don't have to pay anything if you visit the doctor? Do you have co-insurance?
Co pays are like $25 per visit. I don't have my W2 handy but my guess is my employer is pitching in a lot more than yours...
 
Jan 12, 2009
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#37
My insurance is WAY better than yours. I have no deductables and I pay about half of what you pay. But then again my employer may be paying more, I'm not sure tbh. Either way, there are options. You should have influence in your company if you are a valuable employee, why don't you try instead of just complaining?

All you are talking about is navigating through our existing system with the same flaws in tact. You are not actually addressing anything meaningful.

Healthcare is too costly, that's the problem that limits all of us one way or another.
 
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#38
All you are talking about is navigating through our existing system with the same flaws in tact. You are not actually addressing anything meaningful.

Healthcare is too costly, that's the problem that limits all of us one way or another.
I never claimed to address any root causes. Do you really think healthcare costs will fall once the government starts writing blank checks to doctors and pharmacists?
 

Cybrwzrd

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#39
Co pays are like $25 per visit. I don't have my W2 handy but my guess is my employer is pitching in a lot more than yours...
Ahh so you have co-pays. Those are for normal visits. I guarantee you have some form of co-insurance for procedures. How much do you pay for say, an MRI?
 
Jan 12, 2009
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I never claimed to address any root causes. Do you really think healthcare costs will fall once the government starts writing blank checks to doctors and pharmacists?
Mathematically, hell yes all day yes. Now getting the system is another story. There are a couple if different versions...single payer being the hardest one.
 

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#41
Ahh so you have co-pays. Those are for normal visits. I guarantee you have some form of co-insurance for procedures. How much do you pay for say, an MRI?
I don't have that info handy, but I know that most things are completely covered or extremely cheap. My wife had a baby and spent 4 days in the hospital, I paid 500 bucks out of pocket...
 

Cybrwzrd

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#43
I never claimed to address any root causes. Do you really think healthcare costs will fall once the government starts writing blank checks to doctors and pharmacists?
The government doesn't write blank checks to doctors and pharmacists. They actually work at mass scale cost negotiations...
 

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#44
The government doesn't write blank checks to doctors and pharmacists. They actually work at mass scale cost negotiations...
And what makes you think they will negotiate in our best interest as well as in the best interest of the care providers? They can't even balance a yearly budget, you expect them to run the entire medical industry in a sustainable manner? C'mon...

edit: also a coworker just informed me MRIs are $100 out of pocket...
 
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Cybrwzrd

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#45
I don't have that info handy, but I know that most things are completely covered or extremely cheap. My wife had a baby and spent 4 days in the hospital, I paid 500 bucks out of pocket...
So you do have co-insurance/copays. Sounds like you have an HMO. That means you have less care options, especially if you want control over what specialists you see. They are not considered to be Cadillac healthcare packages. They are just cheap. If you want care outside of what the HMO covers' you will be completely out of pocket.

And what makes you think they will negotiate in our best interest as well as in the best interest of the care providers? They can't even balance a yearly budget, you expect them to run the entire medical industry in a sustainable manner? C'mon...
They already run a great system, it is called Medicare/Medicaid. They have some of the best cost to benefit ratios in the industry. You are conflating our idiot elected officials and the lifers who work in public service.
 
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Cybrwzrd

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#47
You don't let perfect be the enemy of good. It is the principle of the matter, not the execution.

Either healthcare is a right or a privilege.
It isn't a right. It is a privilege. But from a cost management standpoint, it is much cheaper to go the single payer route.
 

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#48
So you do have co-insurance/copays. Sounds like you have an HMO. That means you have less care options, especially if you want control over what specialists you see. They are not considered to be Cadillac healthcare packages. They are just cheap. If you want care outside of what the HMO covers' you will be completely out of pocket.
I found what looks like my plan, similar enough anyway from the same company. You are correct there is some deductibles there, I was wrong about that, but it's still amazing coverage... http://www.aetna.com/individuals-families/document-library/SBC/2017/CB/DE/SBC_2017_DE_718451_On.pdf

However that's definitely not exactly my plan, as I don't pay that 20% for most things. Like I said, my wife's hospital stay was only $500...

They already run a great system, it is called Medicare/Medicaid. They have some of the best cost to benefit ratios in the industry.
You do realize that's because everyone's paying into it and only some are benefiting, right? As far as those who work in public service, we have plenty of weak links in every sector...
 
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#49
But from a cost management standpoint, it is much cheaper to go the single payer route.
Like I said, we can have a cheap public option available for people who either can't get group rates or their employer option is too costly. But if you want to force everyone into the same pool and have it only administered by the government then no thanks. The rest of us should have the option to purchase insurance as we have in the past.
 
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#50
I live in Canada. The quality of care we have compared to the states is drastic. Waiting lists are a big thing here in Canada. Look it up.
Same in Germany Free healthcare sounds great on paper but when you never get sick and never needs medical care you spending money. And when you really need it you get shitty help, you have to wait sometimes up to 6 month for specialists etc.

Honestly I almost never get sick or need medical help and I wish I could save my money when I nee it so I can get the best and fastest help possible.
 
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