Medicare for All Is Even Better Than You Thought

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
Jun 15, 2013
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#51
I would much prefer universal healthcare over paying almost $1k per month for ever reducing coverage.

Unfortunately an entire industry (insurance) would need to be dissolved for this to work and our govt isn’t keen on that.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#52
I found what looks like my plan, similar enough anyway from the same company. You are correct there is some deductibles there, I was wrong about that, but it's still amazing coverage... http://www.aetna.com/individuals-families/document-library/SBC/2017/CB/DE/SBC_2017_DE_718451_On.pdf

However that's definitely not exactly my plan, as I don't pay that 20% for most things. Like I said, my wife's hospital stay was only $500...
I have a feeling that you don't really understand how health insurance works or what it costs you. If your wife's hospital stay was $500, that very well could have been your co-insurance payment after deductible for her care. You may be on a 90/10 plan. The average childbirth if vaginal costs about 5k in the US. If she was pregnant, she very well could have hit her 1400 dollar deductible over the course of the 9 months of pregnancy.

You do realize that's because everyone's paying into it and only some are benefiting, right?
You do realize that is what insurance is in general right?
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#53
Like I said, we can have a cheap public option available for people who either can't get group rates or their employer option is too costly. But if you want to force everyone into the same pool and have it only administered by the government then no thanks. The rest of us should have the option to purchase insurance as we have in the past.
Every employer option is costly. It is just hidden from the average employee because they don't look at these things...

How about you get a raise, and tax increase to covers your health insurance that costs less than what your premiums cost in the past, and opt for private supplemental insurance if the medicare plan isn't up to par? That seems like an even better idea.

Even if you are opting out of health insurance with your employer, as it currently stands your employer is pocketing the wages you would have received that would have been going to your premiums. So it is kind of a dumb idea to opt out of employer provided care. It is like not contributing to your 401k and missing your employer match.
 
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Likes: ssolitare
Jan 13, 2018
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#54
Same in Germany Free healthcare sounds great on paper but when you never get sick and never needs medical care you spending money. And when you really need it you get shitty help, you have to wait sometimes up to 6 month for specialists etc.

Honestly I almost never get sick or need medical help and I wish I could save my money when I nee it so I can get the best and fastest help possible.
You should honestly just exit society and go live somewhere as isolated and self reliant as possible. Every cent you spend is going to benefit someone you disapprove of, and could theoretically mean more economic power if you found a way to hold onto it. You have a very healthy mindset and I wish you the best.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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#55
I never claimed to address any root causes. Do you really think healthcare costs will fall once the government starts writing blank checks to doctors and pharmacists?
It is pretty likely that the costs will fall but also that the quality will fall. The question is how much and which will fall more.
Some countries address this by a dual system. You have both single payer that covers everyone then you have optional, but highly recommended, private insurance to address the quality issue.

I guess the idea is to push all the common routine procedures that benefit from economy of scale towards the single payer system to put pressure on prices and have the private system to pick up the slack where the single payer system does not work well.
At least in Australia it seems to work quite well.

Sinple payer only systems, like scandinavia is probably not something you want to emulate. There you have no options and no recourse when the single payer system fails you.
Results are long queues and waiting lists for any non-acute or non-life-threathening conditions. You need surgery to fix your knee? Maybe you need to wait 6 months. That sucks.


In the US there is definitely costs you can save on routine procedures since the insurance system basically create local monopolies.
An example to illustrate : Take for example LASIK eye surgery. Not covered by insurance policies so practitioners need to offer a competitive product.
I think you can have this procedure nowadays for about 1000$ per eye.
Counter-example: Broken arm. The average cost for treatment for a broken arm is 2500 in the US.
 
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Oct 24, 2017
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#56
You should honestly just exit society and go live somewhere as isolated and self reliant as possible. Every cent you spend is going to benefit someone you disapprove of, and could theoretically mean more economic power if you found a way to hold onto it. You have a very healthy mindset and I wish you the best.
You have no fucking idea. For example my mother really needs it and they messed her whole life up because of this cheeap shit and terrible quality. It does not work if you want good medical care.

The wait times are fucking terrible, the quality of personal is getting worse. treatment in hospitals unless you have a private insurance are abysmal and so on.....
 
Nov 12, 2016
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#57
It never ceases to amaze me that people believe this nonsense. "Well this little country does it, why can't we?" That is all you need to know about how clueless people are who want this.

I'll give you an example of my health care, that is outside of the narrative. I need EpiPen for an allergy. It costs about $700, and insurance basically covers nothing. If I was an entitled, emotional, liberal, I would say the money needs to come out of some where, just not my pocket. The Trump admin has magically gotten hundreds of generics approved, that were denied for years due to special interests. I bought the generic for $60, and no one paid for it. Let's say it was socialized. Who pays for my pen? How many should I be allowed to get? What is Mylan's reason for keeping prices reasonable?

There are other fixes. Please stop falling for government dependence propaganda.
 
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Mar 18, 2018
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#58
I would much prefer universal healthcare over paying almost $1k per month for ever reducing coverage.

Unfortunately an entire industry (insurance) would need to be dissolved for this to work and our govt isn’t keen on that.
One of the congressional powers in the founding documents is to regulate the economy. Human interactions that require a person's time and expertise in the medical field should not fall under government nationalization unless there is no better option. While I would certainly entertain the idea of a new system that 2/3rds of the states could agree on, there hasn't been one yet that wasn't doomed to failure and abuse.

The notion that our government isn't keen on doing something it isn't empowered to do is not really an accurate depition of reality. The 4th largest insurance company in the country, Health Care Service Corporation employs 22000+ people. Fourth largest. How many more people work in the top 3? So why would the government want to play King Solomon and risk the life, liberty and happiness of potentially millions, those people have families.... because they think they can do a better job.

And if the government would just pull a Sweden and just get private companies to run nationalized programs why not just try to fix the surrounding systems that impact the direct and indirect cost of healthcare FIRST. Then we can talk if things still don't work.
 
Jan 19, 2007
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#59
Because we have heard too many horror stories about it. No thanks. I have no problem paying for quality care for me and my family. I'm not waiting for routine service.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallyp...e-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#3c31d6313e7d
So get private?

You know you can get private in countries with universal healthcare right?

One of the reasons for universal healthcare is to stop insurance companies and medical providers rorting the system by overcharging customers.
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#60
It never ceases to amaze me that people believe this nonsense. "Well this little country does it, why can't we?" That is all you need to know about how clueless people are who want this.

I'll give you an example of my health care, that is outside of the narrative. I need EpiPen for an allergy. It costs about $700, and insurance basically covers nothing. If I was an entitled, emotional, liberal, I would say the money needs to come out of some where, just not my pocket. The Trump admin has magically gotten hundreds of generics approved, that were denied for years due to special interests. I bought the generic for $60, and no one paid for it. Let's say it was socialized. Who pays for my pen? How many should I be allowed to get? What is Mylan's reason for keeping prices reasonable?

There are other fixes. Please stop falling for government dependence propaganda.
Insurance is already socialized. What do you think insurance is? It is spreading the risk around.

Epipen isn't getting covered by insurance companies because the manufacturer is even gouging them even though cheaper epinephrine delivery systems are available now. Still, people are idiots and demand the brand name instead of the generic and are for whatever reason willing to be gouged. Insurance companies being larger and having centralized cost negotiations are paying in bulk, so they can tell Mylan to take a hike and offer up alternatives at better prices.

If it was socialized the government would also do the same, it is what they do with medicaid prescriptions already.

It works the same as the insurance companies. Such a ridiculous argument. Do you think the government is going to prevent you from buying devices not covered by the the system if you want to on your own?
 
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Sep 4, 2018
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#61
the way costs are setup is insane. it needs to be completely reformed. it is not simply that a given operation is priced at a certain amount. there are multiple amounts, a sort of auction system, where lobbyists can raise bids for high cost products, etc. the billing becomes a multi-tentacled beast.

insurance lobbyists have too much control of the US health system. when Obama was coming up with the ACA, lobbyists were on both sides, industry professionals writing the talking points for both the left and the right. the legislation was drafted behind closed doors, and no public option was even considered.

what's worse, the ACA did little to address billing inflation. you see it in all aspects of the US medical industry because the way they budget is completely rigged in favor of funneling money to those at the top. medicine that is cheap in Canada or Europe is hundreds, even thousands of dollars in the US. we need to end byzantine billing practices and come up with a standardized, national solution w medical services on the same cost per treatment of other developed nations.
 
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Likes: Cybrwzrd
Dec 3, 2018
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#62
I'd like to spend some time validating this when I get the time. I wonder where all the savings will come from? All the new patients? All the unnecessary appointments and procedures because now it's "free"? All the price gouging for medicine because now it's automatically paid? I wonder...
I can tell you that one of the reasons that health care is so expensive is because a lot of medical billings are never paid.

I have a couple of friends who work as accountants at a large local hospital system. They've told me that the hospital writes off some 50-60% of what they bill each year. I don't know the breakdown of how much of that is insurance company discounts and how much is unpaid patient billings, but it means they have to overcharge patients who do pay to make up for the ones who do not.

Hospitals are required to treat patients who come in for emergencies, regardless of their ability to pay (accident victims, gunshot victims, etc.) and take care of them until they are stable.

Also note that medical bills are the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy in the US.

The bottom line here is that, since a lot of medical bills end up uncollected, providers have to jack up the rates to cover for the non-payers.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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#63
For any Americans wanting universal healthcare, here's the most important first steps to getting the government to do it....

1. Are you willing to pay more state tax when buying things? Yes/no.

2. Are you willing to pay more income tax? Yes/no

3. Do you want the gov to cut back on things like military, NASA, helping other countries with aid? Yes/no

If you say no to these, then the US government will never generate enough money to even offer basic free stuff, never mind things like giving people free heart surgery like in other G20 nations.

In most other rich countries with more universal services, people pay more taxes. That's how they pool funds together to cover stuff.

The US is by far the biggest economy, where people make good wages (GDP/GNP per person), so the dollars are there. But I think the tax/spending structure is out of whack, so you get people keep more money for themselves..... which is great if you never get sick. But for the have-nots who struggle and can't get good supplementary health insurance, it sounds like you're fucked.
 
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Sep 28, 2018
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#64
I'm a supporter of privatised healthcare with government intervention in cases of malpractice or fraud.

The system is only as good as the legislation that is passed to govern it. I'm in the UK and can tell you that in many places the NHS is a shit show (This is the system considered best in the world for universal healthcare). Waiting months for appointments and routine operations.

Legislation that governs these social healthcare systems is generally very rigid and cannot adapt to changes in demand or in procedure fast enough due to it being a political football.

Healthcare should be devolved to the state level in the USA. If certain states can prove that a health insurance tax works then more power to them. This also gives more power to the voter and strengthens democracy.
I was going to say this. I enjoy being able to make an appointment whenever I feel like it. I like not having to wait 9 months to see a specialist or to be able to get an mri.
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#65
If you say no to these, then the US government will never generate enough money to even offer basic free stuff, never mind things like giving people free heart surgery like in other G20 nations.
We pay more as it stands per capita than other G20 nations under our current healthcare system. You take the premiums people and their employers are paying now and convert it to a single payer system, this isn't rocket surgery. The money is there for the government to do it. And they can do it cheaper because they consolidate the buying power and cut out the middlemen and lower the overhead costs of doing business for healthcare providers because they only have to conform to one billing system. We wouldn't need to pay any more than we do already, just the recipient is different and overall we'd likely be paying less as all the data shows. I swear people are as ignorant of what they are paying for healthcare as they are of what they pay in taxes because it all is calculated for you each month.
 
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Oct 26, 2018
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#66
Same in Germany Free healthcare sounds great on paper but when you never get sick and never needs medical care you spending money. And when you really need it you get shitty help, you have to wait sometimes up to 6 month for specialists etc.

Honestly I almost never get sick or need medical help and I wish I could save my money when I nee it so I can get the best and fastest help possible.
Fine and true to an extent. If the total amount of taxes paid is way more than the hospital service you use, it definitely sounds like you're not getting the bang for your buck.

But the point of universal health care is to fund it with "givers", which helps cover the "takers". It's to help people out so you don't get have-nots with no money being kicked to the curb where they can't get treatment.

The problem with a pay as you go system is that if you or a family member gets hit with a big medical treatment, have fun covering a $200,000 bill. Most people probably can't, which spirals the system worse.

Universal health care with taxes is similar to car insurance.

People have to buy it and most people won't get into accidents. But if someone does get into one, it's covered with the premiums s things are smoothed out. But a pay as you go system for cars would be disastrous. Just like a huge medical bill, most people won't be able to cover paying for car wrecks and being sued for more out of their own pocket. They'd just claim bankruptcy.
 
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Nov 23, 2010
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#67
I like how on multiple subjects it's never "let's create something new that works better than everything" it's either A or B. So socialism and socialized medicine failed decades ago, and the current system was better, now that the current system is starting to flounder why is it that the ONLY option people present is the option that failed decades ago?
Don't really get where you're coming from.

Americans have been paying more for less for a long time. Not sure the exact point but surely decades now. Seeing worse outcomes on average than the shitty systems and dying but you pay top dollar as if you're #1.

Why?

To me, paying more than you have to means you're getting fleeced.

So with that said, socialized medicine may not be a Utopia but the US has been around as we know it for over 200 years...socialized medicine has been around for over a hundred easy. And still trucking in Europe.

Think about it. I don't think anyone starting from scratch wants to follow America's lead. They want to model after those systems you claim have failed decades ago.

In any event, I know Pres. Trump has said Medicare for all would lead to massive rationing and be horrible. But I truly believe it can help MAGA. If a study like this is validated by independent people then what the hell does America have to lose by giving it a shot?
 
Jan 16, 2008
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#68
Americans are paying more for less because competition has been wholly removed from the cost. Why are hospitals and doctors above the rest of us when choice is involved? Nothing, and I mean nothing, brings down the cost of a good or service faster than a competitor.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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#69
Americans are paying more for less because competition has been wholly removed from the cost. Why are hospitals and doctors above the rest of us when choice is involved? Nothing, and I mean nothing, brings down the cost of a good or service faster than a competitor.
it's also about how much money the general public has. The more they have, the more they'll get charged. The status quo of prices and standard of living also influence prices.

Here's an example.

In Canada, dental care is not covered by the government. My bro wasn't working at the time so he had no coverage. He needed some kind of major dental work..... I forget what it was.

Supposedly, every place he went to (including his usual dentist) wanted to charge him something like $5,000+. No joke.

So what he did was do some research and decided to take a risk to do one-off dental surgery in another country while visiting the country as a mini vacation too.

It cost him something like $1,000.

Everything is fine.

I bet if he was in the US, it would be $10,000.
 
Aug 29, 2018
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#70
Why do Americans look down on socialized medicine?
Because the only thing the US Government is truly proficient in is blowing shit up.

Want a horrific city-destroying bomb developed, Low Alamos has your back.
Want a middle-eastern country blown up, Uncle Sam has you covered.
Want a booming econonmy taken down a peg, the Feds are on the case.
Want a functioning, if expensive healthcare system run into the ground...
 
Dec 3, 2018
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#71
For any Americans wanting universal healthcare, here's the most important first steps to getting the government to do it....

1. Are you willing to pay more state tax when buying things? Yes/no.

2. Are you willing to pay more income tax? Yes/no

3. Do you want the gov to cut back on things like military, NASA, helping other countries with aid? Yes/no

If you say no to these, then the US government will never generate enough money to even offer basic free stuff, never mind things like giving people free heart surgery like in other G20 nations.

In most other rich countries with more universal services, people pay more taxes. That's how they pool funds together to cover stuff.

The US is by far the biggest economy, where people make good wages (GDP/GNP per person), so the dollars are there. But I think the tax/spending structure is out of whack, so you get people keep more money for themselves..... which is great if you never get sick. But for the have-nots who struggle and can't get good supplementary health insurance, it sounds like you're fucked.
I think my preference would involve funding the bulk of it with payroll taxes, with some deducted from the employee's salary and some paid by the employer. That is similar to how FICA deductions (Social Security and Medicare) work today, and would mirror the practice of most employment based health coverage in receiving contributions from both the employer and employee. It would also have the side effect of requiring those employers who do not offer insurance benefits to pony up.
 

BANGS

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Dec 13, 2016
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#72
I have a feeling that you don't really understand how health insurance works or what it costs you. If your wife's hospital stay was $500, that very well could have been your co-insurance payment after deductible for her care. You may be on a 90/10 plan. The average childbirth if vaginal costs about 5k in the US. If she was pregnant, she very well could have hit her 1400 dollar deductible over the course of the 9 months of pregnancy.
My wife had a c section and much longer than normal hospital stay soo...

You do realize that is what insurance is in general right?
The different is with insurance everyone who contributes is eligible to use it, with medicaid/medicare only certain people who qualify can use it...

The bottom line here is that, since a lot of medical bills end up uncollected, providers have to jack up the rates to cover for the non-payers.
Exactly like taxes...

It is pretty likely that the costs will fall but also that the quality will fall.
I'd like to see more evidence of both of these things. It seems just as likely the opposite would happen on both fronts... we're kinda just taking a leap of faith here and praying everything works out well on a long term basis...
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#73
The different is with insurance everyone who contributes is eligible to use it, with medicaid/medicare only certain people who qualify can use it...
Everyone (nearly, those who die young naturally wouldn't) who pays into medicare eventually benefits from it. You are prepaying for senior care your entire life so that when you no longer have employer funded healthcare you can afford to have it.

But that is a different point than what you were making. Everyone who pays for insurance is paying into the system and only a minority receive benefits greater than what they pay in. But in case you need it you have it. The larger the group the cheaper the cost to insure it is.

My wife had a c section and much longer than normal hospital stay soo..
I had a health insurance license in a past life because I used to sell the stuff. So I do understand how the stuff works fairly well. If you were billed $500, it was a co-insurance payment up to your out of pocket max for the year after your deductible was met, or a portion of said deductible- which isn't likely because your wife would have had other doctors visits throughout the year that were also going against your deductible/OOP max.. Nearly all insurance polices have some form of deductible, some don't but they are either prohibitively expensive or much more limited coverage like an HMO. Without seeing your exact policy I can't tell you the exact benefits you have. But the way they all work is pretty standardized..

Keep in mind, I also don't know how much that hospitals bills or how much your insurer pays out for what they were billed for. The actual costs of something like a c-section are vastly under what hospitals bill for. A multi day stay in the hospital really doesn't cost that much unless it is entirely in the ICU.

If you are refusing to look at your W2 to see how much your total premiums cost for the year, and don't want to look at your policy to keep the illusion that you have superior insurance go for it. Stay in your bubble of ignorance so you can hate the idea of single payer. My stance changed once I learned how insurance works. That's why I don't work in the insurance industry any longer.
 

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Dec 13, 2016
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#74
Everyone (nearly, those who die young naturally wouldn't) who pays into medicare eventually benefits from it. You are prepaying for senior care your entire life so that when you no longer have employer funded healthcare you can afford to have it.

But that is a different point than what you were making. Everyone who pays for insurance is paying into the system and only a minority receive benefits greater than what they pay in. But in case you need it you have it. The larger the group the cheaper the cost to insure it is.
I'm just explaining the distinction between medicaid and single payer healthcare for all. I'm sure you understand the difference by now between everyone paying so everyone can benefit vs everyone paying and only some people are allowed to benefit...

If you are refusing to look at your W2 to see how much your total premiums cost for the year, and don't want to look at your policy to keep the illusion that you have superior insurance go for it. Stay in your bubble of ignorance so you can hate the idea of single payer. My stance changed once I learned how insurance works. That's why I don't work in the insurance industry any longer.
Perhaps my insurance isn't superior to yours, although it certainly seems so, but either way it really is great insurance and I'm happy to have it. It's certainly better than what I would be dealing with under a single payer system... having both my wife's and my own wages stolen to pay for everyone else's healthcare instead of just the people who actually contribute... long wait times for routine procedures, all that nonsense seems horrible. Not to mention skyrocketing healthcare costs as the health industry learns to game the system and lobby congress for more blank checks...

You can wave your cardboard signs around calling me heartless all you want, but if you had good insurance you wouldn't want to give it up either. I'm not willing to sacrifice good health coverage for my wife and daughter, and more of my out of pocket money, just so a bunch of people who didn't earn health coverage get to have it. You said it yourself, health care isn't a right it's a privilege... earn it...

If you can make a compelling argument about how it would cost me less and would be more efficient, that would help your case, but it's only speculation at this point so nothing would be concrete...
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#75
You can wave your cardboard signs around calling me heartless all you want, but if you had good insurance you wouldn't want to give it up either. I'm not willing to sacrifice good health coverage for my wife and daughter, and more of my out of pocket money, just so a bunch of people who didn't earn health coverage get to have it. You said it yourself, health care isn't a right it's a privilege... earn it...
I don't think you are heartless, I just think you are ignorant.

I can give two shits about giving healthcare to the poors. In the ever prescient words of Mel Brook's Roman senate - "Fuck the poor". I care about controlling our insane healthcare industry and the ridiculous costs they charge for services. I care about the anchor weight to middle class income that are our skyrocketing insurance premiums.

What bothers me is that you can't seem to grasp this simple fact - that your employer pays a significant portion of your annual premium before you ever see the money and that it is reported on your W2. -As for why you can't seem to process that fact, I am forced to as this point assume either stems from a lack of mental acuity or blind partisanship. Or maybe both.

I will repeat this again- you are already being "taxed", you just can't see it. Even if you are only paying 100 or 200 dollars a month directly out of your paycheck, your employer is paying 800-1200 dollars a month (or more) that you never see except as line DD on your W2.
 
Aug 24, 2016
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#76
Don't really get where you're coming from.

Americans have been paying more for less for a long time. Not sure the exact point but surely decades now. Seeing worse outcomes on average than the shitty systems and dying but you pay top dollar as if you're #1.

Why?

To me, paying more than you have to means you're getting fleeced.

So with that said, socialized medicine may not be a Utopia but the US has been around as we know it for over 200 years...socialized medicine has been around for over a hundred easy. And still trucking in Europe.

Think about it. I don't think anyone starting from scratch wants to follow America's lead. They want to model after those systems you claim have failed decades ago.

In any event, I know Pres. Trump has said Medicare for all would lead to massive rationing and be horrible. But I truly believe it can help MAGA. If a study like this is validated by independent people then what the hell does America have to lose by giving it a shot?
See this is exactly my point you're not thinking. You are instead of being pen to a possibility of a third option the only mindset going around for pro social medicine is "ok the current system does not work so we HAVE to do B now because A isn't working" when nobody ever thing maybe neither are really good and there should be some new option. It's already proven that both don't really work well at this point, so why is it you think that's the ONLY viable option?
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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#77
See this is exactly my point you're not thinking. You are instead of being pen to a possibility of a third option the only mindset going around for pro social medicine is "ok the current system does not work so we HAVE to do B now because A isn't working" when nobody ever thing maybe neither are really good and there should be some new option. It's already proven that both don't really work well at this point, so why is it you think that's the ONLY viable option?
How has socialized healthcare been proven to not work? Countries with socialized/single payer healthcare have longer life expectancy than the US. They spend far less of their GDP on healthcare than the US.
 
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Aug 24, 2016
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#78
How has socialized healthcare been proven to not work? Countries with socialized/single payer healthcare have longer life expectancy than the US. They spend far less of their GDP on healthcare than the US.
These comparisons don't work. That means the US system isn't optimal, that doesn't mean that makes Social medicine "better" or more "workable" as years of looking into it already shows us that it would not really fix anything at all.

We need a better solution to both that's efficient, and provides fast care, while also not screwing over the economy.
 
Nov 12, 2016
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#79
We pay more as it stands per capita than other G20 nations under our current healthcare system. You take the premiums people and their employers are paying now and convert it to a single payer system, this isn't rocket surgery. The money is there for the government to do it. And they can do it cheaper because they consolidate the buying power and cut out the middlemen and lower the overhead costs of doing business for healthcare providers because they only have to conform to one billing system. We wouldn't need to pay any more than we do already, just the recipient is different and overall we'd likely be paying less as all the data shows. I swear people are as ignorant of what they are paying for healthcare as they are of what they pay in taxes because it all is calculated for you each month.
We've become so ingrained with this agenda, that we brainlessly regurgitate the same speaking points, like they make perfect sense. They make no sense. These discussions usually start with we spend more in health care than other countries. Really think about that for a minute, before you spit out more liberal speaking points. Why are we paying more? But then you say that's because we have all of this money being lost to a middleman. The top 6 health insurers make about 6 billion in profit a year. Compare that to 3.5 trillion we spend on health care. You're taught to hate the insurance companies like they caused this mess to favor the magical single-payer fix. Then to add insult to injury, you assume the government does it more efficiently. You assume we collect the right amount of money for this. You assume the government pays a fair price. The grass isn't greener on the other side.
 

Cybrwzrd

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#80
We need a better solution to both that's efficient, and provides fast care, while also not screwing over the economy
Socialized medicine is fully capable of fast/efficient care. My ex wife was Japanese- and Japan has a national (social) insurance program. She refused to get medical care in the US due to the costs, so when she went home every year, she would get all of her checkups done there. Something was found one time and within a week she had surgery to have it removed. This fearmongering you hear about socialized heath care being slow is fucking ridiculous. Yeah you may have to wait for an elective surgery, but something life threatening isn't going to be ignored.
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
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#82
We've become so ingrained with this agenda, that we brainlessly regurgitate the same speaking points, like they make perfect sense. They make no sense. These discussions usually start with we spend more in health care than other countries. Really think about that for a minute, before you spit out more liberal speaking points. Why are we paying more? But then you say that's because we have all of this money being lost to a middleman. The top 6 health insurers make about 6 billion in profit a year. Compare that to 3.5 trillion we spend on health care. You're taught to hate the insurance companies like they caused this mess to favor the magical single-payer fix. Then to add insult to injury, you assume the government does it more efficiently. You assume we collect the right amount of money for this. You assume the government pays a fair price. The grass isn't greener on the other side.
Liberal talking points huh. We pay more for the 26th best life expectancy.





Yeah, we pay more because of middlemen. Not just insurance companies are middlemen. The massive administrative burden to have to deal with medical billing and collections is another huge potion of the cost of our system. Big pharma is a whole other leech on our system. Overblown hospital administrations (this is like our education problem, too many administrators with inflated salaries justifying their positions with additional internal bullshit). Employers have to deal with additional regulation to provide healthcare to their employees, which drives to larger and more powerful HR departments(HR is the most useless, anti-productivity job field in the world - if you work in HR, you deserve to be punched in the junk every day for making shitty life decisions). Death by a thousand cuts.

I don't hate the insurance companies. They serve a purpose. I hate the system itself. Private supplemental insurance under a public system is perfectly valid in my opinion.

Do you have a better system in mind? The average insurance premium in the US for a family is a hair under $19,000 currently. I see verifiable evidence that other systems are better. You on the other hand are trying to sell me on the time cube.
 
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#83
I don't think you are heartless, I just think you are ignorant.

I can give two shits about giving healthcare to the poors. In the ever prescient words of Mel Brook's Roman senate - "Fuck the poor". I care about controlling our insane healthcare industry and the ridiculous costs they charge for services. I care about the anchor weight to middle class income that are our skyrocketing insurance premiums.

What bothers me is that you can't seem to grasp this simple fact - that your employer pays a significant portion of your annual premium before you ever see the money and that it is reported on your W2. -As for why you can't seem to process that fact, I am forced to as this point assume either stems from a lack of mental acuity or blind partisanship. Or maybe both.

I will repeat this again- you are already being "taxed", you just can't see it. Even if you are only paying 100 or 200 dollars a month directly out of your paycheck, your employer is paying 800-1200 dollars a month (or more) that you never see except as line DD on your W2.
I'm not sure why you think I'm not grasping a simple concept that I've already covered? We've already established that our employers pay into our benefits, I'm saying I don't want to be taxed MORE which is what I believe will happen if I'm paying for more people who contribute less for the same service... Right now me and a bunch of other working folk of relatively decent health(because we work daily) are pooling our money together so we can all get healthcare when needed. I can't see how it will cost me LESS to pool in with EVERYONE, including tons of people who don't work at all and have awful health, to reach the same goal. A goal which will see a huge increase in use because to everyone else it's "free". I'm really skeptical that those costs will be offset by "negotiations", which is the only point I'm making here...

Again, you can speculate that the magical government genie is going to make it all better and somehow artificially lower costs of all procedures and medicine, but that just smells like a fat pile of bullshit...
 
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#85
Liberal talking points huh. We pay more for the 26th best life expectancy.





Yeah, we pay more because of middlemen. Not just insurance companies are middlemen. The massive administrative burden to have to deal with medical billing and collections is another huge potion of the cost of our system. Big pharma is a whole other leech on our system. Overblown hospital administrations (this is like our education problem, too many administrators with inflated salaries justifying their positions with additional internal bullshit - if you work in HR, you deserve to be punched in the junk every day for making shitty life decisions by the way). Employers have to deal with additional regulation to provide healthcare to their employees, which drives to larger and more powerful HR departments(HR is the most useless, anti-productivity job field in the world). Death by a thousand cuts.

I don't hate the insurance companies. They serve a purpose. I hate the system itself. Private supplemental insurance under a public system is perfectly valid in my opinion.

Do you have a better system in mind? The average insurance premium in the US for a family is a hair under $19,000 currently. I see verifiable evidence that other systems are better. You on the other hand are trying to sell me on the time cube.
Don't forget how much is spent because of the people paying NOTHING use their government paid medicaid needlessly and excessively, or who just take advantage of hospitals not turning anyone away who have no insurance and no intent to ever pay anyway. Go to any hospital near a high population center. Massive wait times because of people with minor illnesses going to hospital every time someone has a cold / flu. They are not primarily the people paying a $250 - $1000 co-pay like those of use who work and have private insurance. I know two people close to myself that do this crap all the time. Someone sneezes? Go to hospital and pay nothing while making people with real illnesses wait.
 
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#86
I'm not sure why you think I'm not grasping a simple concept that I've already covered? We've already established that our employers pay into our benefits, I'm saying I don't want to be taxed MORE which is what I believe will happen if I'm paying for more people who contribute less for the same service... Right now me and a bunch of other working folk of relatively decent health(because we work daily) are pooling our money together so we can all get healthcare when needed. I can't see how it will cost me LESS to pool in with EVERYONE, including tons of people who don't work at all and have awful health, to reach the same goal. A goal which will see a huge increase in use because to everyone else it's "free". I'm really skeptical that those costs will be offset by "negotiations", which is the only point I'm making here...

Again, you can speculate that the magical government genie is going to make it all better and somehow artificially lower costs of all procedures and medicine, but that just smells like a fat pile of bullshit...
I've already pointed out the fact that you end up paying for the uninsured, anyway. You and your insurance company are paying > 2x as much for services as they would charge if they knew up front that all of the charges would be paid, because everyone has coverage.

Add to that the fact that the uninsured end up waiting... and waiting... and waiting until their illness/condition becomes so acute that they can no longer wait, and you have people whose care ends up costing a lot more than it would have if they'd had access to earlier/preventive care.

The current system is inefficient (understatement) and may not be sustainable.
 
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Cybrwzrd

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#87
Again, you can speculate that the magical government genie is going to make it all better and somehow artificially lower costs of all procedures and medicine, but that just smells like a fat pile of bullshit...
No, we pay more because of strict regulation in what's supposed to be an open market, and political corruption...

Maybe Americans are just fat, lazy and corrupt, and incapable of efficient government. Maybe that is why we have such high costs. I'd like to think we are a better people, but maybe we get what we deserve. Conservatives think America is this country that can be great (or is), but at the same time think our government that is by, for, and of the people is an absolute disaster because it is by, for, and especially of the people.

Its fucking mental gymnastics. America IS great. We can have a better system. We can fix our problems.
 
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#88
I hate the system itself. Private supplemental insurance under a public system is perfectly valid in my opinion.
But that's the main reason for absurd medical care costs in the US. It's an industry driven by profits. In other countries, it's a public system. And because the US has huge medical and insurance companies and..... LOL..... privatized hospitals, what you're going to get is the American Way..... If you got the coin, you move to the front of the line at fancy hospitals with the best docs who get paid the most, while someone making low wages and can't afford Blue Cross supplemental insurance because the government gives hardly anything, prays everyday he or she never trips and breaks an arm. And at best, they get shitty treatment from a fringe hospital because they are broke.

I'm all for general theories like capitalism, but for basic needs people shouldn't be money hatting things like healthcare spend. It's the type of thing that is an overall society issue for the greater good. It's not like the government is taxing people so they can spread out the proceeds by buying everyone a 4k tv. Healthcare is an important thing. All it takes is one bad diagnosis by a doc and your wallet can be in serious hurt.

That's why in the US, you get so many down and out people and slums which you never really get in other rich countries. They need a helping hand for medical needs, but don't have the job benefits or money, so they can't really do it. Or they force themselves and get a $30,000 bill and be in debt forever.
 
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#89
Don't forget how much is spent because of the people paying NOTHING use their government paid medicaid needlessly and excessively, or who just take advantage of hospitals not turning anyone away who have no insurance and no intent to ever pay anyway. Go to any hospital near a high population center. Massive wait times because of people with minor illnesses going to hospital every time someone has a cold / flu. They are not primarily the people paying a $250 - $1000 co-pay like those of use who work and have private insurance. I know two people close to myself that do this crap all the time. Someone sneezes? Go to hospital and pay nothing while making people with real illnesses wait.
Yes, and you pay for them ANYWAY.

It'd be much cheaper and easier if they could just go to a clinic instead of the hospital.

BTW - it isn't just the destitute who do this. I've worked with people who run to the doctor every time they sneeze...
 
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Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
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#90
But that's the main reason for absurd medical care costs in the US. It's an industry driven by profits. In other countries, it's a public system.
No, many countries have private supplemental health insurance under a public system. Look at what AFLAC is for example.
 
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#91
I've already pointed out the fact that you end up paying for the uninsured, anyway. You and your insurance company are paying > 2x as much for services as they would charge if they knew up front that all of the charges would be paid, because everyone has coverage.

Add to that the fact that the uninsured end up waiting... and waiting... and waiting until their illness/condition becomes so acute that they can no longer wait, and you have people whose care ends up costing a lot more than it would have if they'd had access to earlier/preventive care.

The current system is inefficient (understatement) and may not be sustainable.
Again, all speculation. There is no hard data on what preventative care would cost or how many uninsured people who become suddenly insured will skyrocket their demand for service... If I'm already paying for them now, then it stands to reason I'll be paying more once they have MORE access to my money, no?

Maybe Americans are just fat, lazy and corrupt, and incapable of efficient government. Maybe that is why we have such high costs. I'd like to think we are a better people, but maybe we get what we deserve. Conservatives think America is this country that can be great (or is), but at the same time think our government that is by, for, and of and for the people is an absolute disaster because it is by, for, and especially of the people.

Its fucking mental gymnastics. America IS great. We can have a better system. We can fix our problems.
It only seems like mental gymnastics because your are loading it with your own bias, as well as lumping conservatives together as if their ideologies don't drastically differ across a spectrum. In general terms, we ARE a fat lazy corrupt country. I'd like to live in fantasy land too, but I don't, hence why I don't think single payer healthcare is a good idea...
 
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#92
Maybe Americans are just fat, lazy and corrupt, and incapable of efficient government. Maybe that is why we have such high costs. I'd like to think we are a better people, but maybe we get what we deserve. Conservatives think America is this country that can be great (or is), but at the same time think our government that is by, for, and of the people is an absolute disaster because it is by, for, and especially of the people.

Its fucking mental gymnastics. America IS great. We can have a better system. We can fix our problems.
Governments can be corrupt, but also bad at business. So money and sense is low on the priority list. Most senior level politicians come from political science or law backgrounds. Most have never worked in a typical company with dollars and sense. Law offices can be so rich, they don't really care as money is oozing from every pore.

A great example is that article from way back where the army bought a hammer (probably $10) for something like $12,000.

It's probably a combo of too much crap whizzing by their desk, poor analysis and people have poor financial skills, something like this would get through the cracks. There is no way the facility managers at my company needing to expense tools would be able to get away trying to expense a hammer for the price of a used car.

Just to show how poor governments are at business, guess which organization always pays the highest price when suppliers offers a bid...... government. The worst negotiators around. You'd think buyers in charge of big government budgets would have awesome money managers scoring great deals. Nope. That's why every business dreams of those overpaid government contracts.

At one of my old companies, out of all the accounts who bought stuff from us, there were only two types that paid full price....... some small mom and pop stores AND provincial ministries. Every other account from some small accounts to medium sized to the big Walmarts all negoitiated discounts before agreeing to buy product.

In other words, government bargaining skills are equal to Bob and Mary running a variety store.
 
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#94
This is a myth. And wow, so it is up from $600 to $12000. That's some incredible inflation.
Fair enough. But the general poor government spending and awful negotiation skills holds.

The real way to negotiate isn't silly bid systems where suppliers inflate their prices knowing the gov will pick one. What you do is what businesses do and "work them". A good buyer will get hold of suppliers and work them over and over again in multiple cycles to get that final price.... which at some point levels out, and some suppliers throw in the towel quitting submitting more.

That's how you get low prices.

I have never seen this done by government buyers with their negotiation methods.

Some government bidding doesn't even involve meeting between government rep and account manager. Account manager submits an online form bid and sends them a box of products to look at. There's not even a telephone or face to face chat to discuss.
 
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#95
We've become so ingrained with this agenda, that we brainlessly regurgitate the same speaking points, like they make perfect sense. They make no sense. These discussions usually start with we spend more in health care than other countries. Really think about that for a minute, before you spit out more liberal speaking points. Why are we paying more? But then you say that's because we have all of this money being lost to a middleman. The top 6 health insurers make about 6 billion in profit a year. Compare that to 3.5 trillion we spend on health care. You're taught to hate the insurance companies like they caused this mess to favor the magical single-payer fix. Then to add insult to injury, you assume the government does it more efficiently. You assume we collect the right amount of money for this. You assume the government pays a fair price. The grass isn't greener on the other side.
Since you're keen to really think this through, let's start with the current situation.

You start a new job and sign up for the health insurance they offer. Depending on the plan and your salary level, it may be as much as 40-50% of your total compensation.

Someone in your family gets sick and needs to see a doctor. You discover that the physician you've been seeing for years is not "in-network" of your new health insurance provider, so your options are to either pay a co-pay of $20 to visit a new doctor in-network, or pay the entire cost of the visit (and have it added to your annual deductible) to use your regular doctor.

The doctor diagnoses that the patient has some condition and wants to treat it with medication. Doctor then goes to a computer terminal to see what medications your particular health insurance plan supports for that condition, and prescribes that one. It may or not be the medication that the doctor would have chosen for that case.

Someone in your family develops an acute condition that requires substantial diagnostic testing. Doctor checks your health insurance plan to see which diagnostic procedures are covered, and recommends accordingly.

Someone in your family requires surgery, which must be pre-approved. So you wait... and wait... and wait for the approval, only to have it turned down and a different treatment plan approved instead.

At every step, it is your insurance company - not your physician - that is deciding what health care you will receive. If you don't like it, or prefer a different treatment, you will pay the cost out of pocket.

If you really think about it, the current health insurance system requires you (and your employer) to put money into a big black hole and then their administrators decide what you'll get back out of it. How much sense does it make to give a for-profit enterprise complete control over your health care dollars? Their job is not to provide you with health care - that's what doctors and other medical professionals do. Their job is to keep as much of your money as they can.

Never mind that health insurers have from time to time gone under, bankrupt, liquidated, and the people who'd been paying premiums all along found that they didn't have coverage when they really needed it.
 
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#96
Socialized medicine is fully capable of fast/efficient care. My ex wife was Japanese- and Japan has a national (social) insurance program. .
The is no fear mongering you're making false comparisons by countries that are nothing a like with different laws and polices that govern the countries differently. All evidence shows to NOT an significant benefit by switching to Socialized health care AND it would cause issues for the economy.

But again like I said why is THAT the ONLY alternative in your and why can't we have a third option? Why is it we saw B failed decade ago, and A was better, now both aren't optimal and A isn't working out however why does that mean our only option is to go back to B? This line of thinking doesn't add-up and is no different than a two party political system, which is funny since those that support social medical care complain about the 2 party system the most. Irony.
 
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#97
I bet any money the people who don't want better medicare for all (where they don't want it as a right, but more like a privilege if you have the $$$ to cover it), are people who have good jobs, good employee perks and can cover that monthly supplemental insurance.

As I said, US attitudes about universal healthcare is more of a have and have-not situation. And unfortunately a selfish attitude.

I make good money in Canada, could cover supplemental coverage if I had to buy it, and I never get sick (excluding that huge toilet bowl time in that OT Shit thread! LOL). There is no doubt that out of all the money I've paid into the system, I have definitely NOT got my money's worth out of it (at least not yet knock on wood)..... I think I've visited a hospital twice. Once when I was born, and one other time I had to see a specialist whose office was at a hospital. But I'm all for paying some more taxes so the greater good (lower wage people) can get some health coverage covered by the gov so they don't have to worry about getting sick or having a crappy job with no employer perks. And I don't need to buy supplemental insurance either as everyone gets the same coverage.
 
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#98
Again, all speculation. There is no hard data on what preventative care would cost or how many uninsured people who become suddenly insured will skyrocket their demand for service... If I'm already paying for them now, then it stands to reason I'll be paying more once they have MORE access to my money, no?
It's not speculation.

That hospitals end up writing off 50-60% of what they bill as uncollectible is FACT. They have to set their pricing accordingly, which means the price for services is inflated to 2-2.5x times what it would be if everyone they treated was insured.

That medical expenses are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy is also not speculation, but FACT.

That minor conditions left untreated can become much more serious should be self-evident.

Do you honestly think that every accident victim, every shooting/assault victim, every gang banger who gets shot or knifed, every roofer who falls off, every person sent to the hospital for treatment pays the bills in full? Who do you think pays them?
 
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#99
It's not speculation.

That hospitals end up writing off 50-60% of what they bill as uncollectible is FACT. They have to set their pricing accordingly, which means the price for services is inflated to 2-2.5x times what it would be if everyone they treated was insured.

That medical expenses are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy is also not speculation, but FACT.

That minor conditions left untreated can become much more serious should be self-evident.

Do you honestly think that every accident victim, every shooting/assault victim, every gang banger who gets shot or knifed, every roofer who falls off, every person sent to the hospital for treatment pays the bills in full? Who do you think pays them?
Exactly.

Another thing about high medical costs in the US is that it's a spiral effect. Someone who makes good money and cover the bills probably doesn't give a shit because they have the funds.

But for people on the fringe, all it takes is some health issues which can't be treated and it spirals to poor physical or mental state of health..... which can turn into shitty family or work relations. Then boom. Shitty life because you're too broke to go see a doc or get surgery when every other citizen in a G20 nation can likely just pop into a doctor's office for an evaluation and not worry about a $500 bill right off the bat. And if a shitty state of mind leads to shitty work, you get fired and it gets worse from here.

That's probably a reason why you get so many ghetto slums in the US. The have-nots have a lousy starting hand of cards to begin with, and making it worse is anything healthcare related which costs a ton and keeps them down, since the "haves" are in their own universe of sizable bank accounts covering private services.

At least that's my opinion.
 
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It's not speculation.

That hospitals end up writing off 50-60% of what they bill as uncollectible is FACT. They have to set their pricing accordingly, which means the price for services is inflated to 2-2.5x times what it would be if everyone they treated was insured.

That medical expenses are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy is also not speculation, but FACT.

That minor conditions left untreated can become much more serious should be self-evident.

Do you honestly think that every accident victim, every shooting/assault victim, every gang banger who gets shot or knifed, every roofer who falls off, every person sent to the hospital for treatment pays the bills in full? Who do you think pays them?
I get that, that doesn't change the fact that I'll still be paying for all those people AND MORE under a single payer system, so I most likely won't see any savings...