• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Opinion Game Dev Hardware Microsoft Exec Bill Stillwell: “We have a better console; we’re not worried about power”

Aug 28, 2019
3,157
6,311
585
www.instagram.com
There have been good Xbox games this gen. Gears and Forza, as you listed, Ori, Cuphead when it was exclusive. I think the problem is that none of these are really 10/10 games and won't be remembered come end of the gen in the way that God of War, TLOZ, TLOU2, Bloodborne will be. One great experience is better than 10 good experiences, and Sony have had a few greats this gen IMHO.
I think Ori and especially Cuphead will have staying power well after this gen is over. I mean, Cuphead in particular is getting a Netflix show of all things, that speaks to its sustained popularity. I think it was a mistake from MS to not hold on to that IP, unless they happen to be publishing it on other platforms. Can't even begin to imagine what a team like the dev behind Cuphead could do with MS's resources (through Xbox division) directly.

FWIW not all of Sony's 1st party have knocked it out of the park, either. The Order was a bit of a mess, and Driveclub launched in a VERY broken state. GT Sport had a rocky launch, too, and TLOU2 has been very divisive even among hardcore fans of the IP. Days Gone wasn't as strongly received as several of their other 1st-party IP, and Dreams took WAY too long to come out IMHO compared to when they first showed it off.

But I see your point, and MS could stand to do with more games with both high quality and easily recognizable brand name/identity. Tapping back into some of the IP associated with the brand like MechWarrior, and maybe Ninja Gaiden if those rumors turn out to be true, would do a lot towards establishing that.

I agree with you - I don't think it's viable for Xbox to outsell Sony but they can certainly have a great gen if they can sell 60m consoles and double the number of GamePass subs. The two companies are in completely different lanes and have different goals.

Regarding closing the gap in Asia and Europe, I disagree that that's possible. I just don't see MS putting out the games it would require to make major inroads in to those markets and getting people to move away from a beloved brand in Sony.
The bolded doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Sony's exclusives do well enough but they are not what the vast majority of PS owners are playing. They tend to play the 3rd party stuff and at least in terms of Europe MS gets virtually all the same MP as Sony, including FIFA. The difference is Sony tends to have marketing rights to those games over there, and that drives perception A LOT.

Asia is a bit different. MS did kind of drop the ball there this gen, but I think they're starting to turn that around. They seem to be leveraging SEGA for example with PSO2 and Yakuza: Like a Dragon (which is a bit of a ridiculous money-hat but whatever), they've been showcasing a lot more Japanese games like Balan Wonderworld, DQXII, and at least trying to get Japanese devs to prioritize Xbox day-and-date with PlayStation.

We'll see how far they continue this though to see if they have any counter to things like FFXVI (potentially) being timed exclusive to PS5 (either they prevent that or line up a similar deal with another game like the next Dragon Quest; DQ AFAIK is much bigger in Japan than Final Fantasy and has been since almost the beginning), ensuring games like SF6 aren't Sony-exclusive again, maybe taking Kamiya up on the offer to revive Scalebound, etc.

Save this post for a few years from now: the PS4 is getting closer to A 3:1 ratio on the Xbox, and the PS5 Will get to 4:1. The Series X, with its lack of exclusives from day one, is DOA.
No need to save, I don't keep ink ribbons for posts ;)

Anyways, PS4 would need to be at 150 million to get 3:1 over XBO, because I'm almost 100% certain XBO system sales didn't stall from the last time they provided an update (or when AMD kinda-sorta did it for them), and it's most likely MS are at around 45 million - 50 million by now, or will be within a few months.

The only way PS5 expands to a 4:1 ratio is if MS goes even worst than XBO, which so far hasn't happened. They could definitely tighten up their messaging but as a system Series X is much better designed for this next-gen than XBO was for current-gen. And while Series X itself may not outsell PS5, Series X and Series S combined might greatly close the ratio gap between them, just on console hardware. With xCloud factored in the ecosystem gap as a whole could be shrunk dramatically.

You're overestimating an emphasis on exclusives in terms of how much they drive system sales. Their importance has historically and continues to be mainly true for Nintendo. Companies like Sony and Microsoft rely mainly on third-parties to drive system sales. FWIW exclusives do help with the early adopters, but it also depends on it they're good. A game being exclusive doesn't automatically mean it's going to be a good game, we've seen this with some of Sony's exclusives this gen, too.

If Series X is getting the best version of 1st-party content weighed out against being the optimal cost/performance device for experiencing it (when compared to PC), that is going to drive sales on its own. As for Sony, I don't know if people are realizing this but they are gradually making a shift to support PC a lot more with their own 1st-party content. The massive staggers we've seen so far with games like Horizon and Bloodborn, I think those are going to shorten going forward, and you'll see more of their 1st-party making ports to PC as well.

Why? Well, because in large part to that Epic deal, for starters. The "RDNA3" rumors that have been popping up regarding PS5 and PC as well (if they happen to even be true), also kind of hint at it. Why would Sony invest so much in hardware features to have AMD implement them in future PC GPUs, if Sony weren't considering leveraging that hardware with their own software? Combine that with possibly getting some massive increase in PC storefront revenue through EGS (and having more control over the delivery of their software that way), and I think we're going to start seeing closer to 50% - 80% of Sony 1st party making the transition to PC in 1-year/2-year stagger periods at most. Maybe a select few with 3-year stagger periods between PS5 and PC. We could start seeing this as soon as 2020 (i.e maybe a game like GT7, if it comes out this fall on PS5, getting a PC port in late 2022 or early 2023), 2021 at latest.

And why that? Because that buffer period is still large enough to drive incentive to buy on the platform first available (we can see this with FFVII Remake, and that game only has a 1-year buffer between PS4 and Xbox/PC), including purchasing that platform in droves (again, we saw this with FFVII Remake), and with shorter transitions it gives Sony more incentive to lap up bigger PC sales while adding additional content (graphics or otherwise) for the PC version. They actually don't want MS to leverage PC as a potential advantage unchecked, especially if MS and, say, Steam, decide to partner up (and they very well could, MS have no issues favoring Steam as a storefront on PC), and this method (with Epic as a partner) is the main way they can ensure that.
 
Last edited:

Shinobitron

Member
May 3, 2019
176
205
235
"Don't have the better games" is subjective. Sony's games don't appeal to me at all. Their all the same and, for the most part look the same. Xbox games are much more diverse, better online and better, tighter gameplay hands down. That's just my take. You can agree to disagree of course..
I worded it wrong, I should have said it has games that are more up my alley, and it's for people who are looking for a focus on story driven games. You're right it is subjective, what kind of games are you into that it would drive you to want an xbox?
 

mckmas8808

Member
May 24, 2005
44,694
9,102
1,860
I agree with you - I don't think it's viable for Xbox to outsell Sony but they can certainly have a great gen if they can sell 60m consoles and double the number of GamePass subs. The two companies are in completely different lanes and have different goals.

Regarding closing the gap in Asia and Europe, I disagree that that's possible. I just don't see MS putting out the games it would require to make major inroads in to those markets and getting people to move away from a beloved brand in Sony.
Only because MS couldn't keep up. They both actually want the same things to be honest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sincarra and MrS

Gavon West

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,053
2,210
375
I worded it wrong, I should have said it has games that are more up my alley, and it's for people who are looking for a focus on story driven games. You're right it is subjective, what kind of games are you into that it would drive you to want an xbox?
QB, Recore, Halo, Gears, FH Series, SoD, SoT, Forza, big fan of BC games and GP is right up my alley. Like to rawk MP from time to time and Live is great for that. Just my personal taste.
 
Dec 29, 2018
2,098
5,410
635
Yes, I agree PS5 will end up with more users, but gamers are very fickle, Xbox has already righted some wrongs by having the most powerful console, leading the charge with BC.
All it will take is a few 90+ metacritic xbox exclusives to put them close to there 360 days(in terms of users on the xbox platform). if Xbox can lose about 40 million gamers, they can get them back.
I see this posted every. single. time.

Can someone care to explain to me when power ever mattered?
 

DrScissorsMD

Member
Apr 3, 2020
353
703
390
I see this posted every. single. time.

Can someone care to explain to me when power ever mattered?
I think it’s less about mattering to the actual end consumer and more about perception. If you can sell product A for the same as product B but product A does it’s job better, even if not by much, it’s a good selling point to the masses. It’s importance is hand in hand with price. While there were many things that went wrong with the Xbox One launch, less power and more cost were two of the big ones so I don’t think it’s wrong to say getting ahead on the power front (and possibly even on the cost front) is them doing those things right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hiz_95

kyoji

Member
Jun 17, 2015
334
945
480
I think it’s less about mattering to the actual end consumer and more about perception. If you can sell product A for the same as product B but product A does it’s job better, even if not by much, it’s a good selling point to the masses. It’s importance is hand in hand with price. While there were many things that went wrong with the Xbox One launch, less power and more cost were two of the big ones so I don’t think it’s wrong to say getting ahead on the power front (and possibly even on the cost front) is them doing those things right.
I get what youre saying, but you play games not power. And thats why people continue to gravitate to playstation and nintendo. Its not to say that MS doesnt have any games at all, just not nearly the library of sony and nintendo. you couple that will 3rd party partnerships that sony is deeply rooted in from years of cultivating relationships and well you have a winning formula. As long as they can show where their new hardware is an advancement it will be more than enough with all the other factors.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
Jan 28, 2012
6,597
3,319
1,015
I think it’s less about mattering to the actual end consumer and more about perception. If you can sell product A for the same as product B but product A does it’s job better, even if not by much, it’s a good selling point to the masses. It’s importance is hand in hand with price. While there were many things that went wrong with the Xbox One launch, less power and more cost were two of the big ones so I don’t think it’s wrong to say getting ahead on the power front (and possibly even on the cost front) is them doing those things right.
All that power means nothing without the software, even as a selling point. I can wait for the softwares and buy that power for less in year 2 or 3.
 

Texas Pride

Member
Feb 27, 2018
2,528
4,489
630
Texas
Same shit every generation. MS talks big but will come up short. They're the loudmouth in the room getting their ass beat by the quiet guy sitting in the corner. The amazing thing is it seems to be a foot in mouth epidemic over at MS management from the top down.
 
Last edited:

Neolombax

Member
Aug 3, 2016
1,094
399
380
Malaysia
Inferior or superior hardware, consoles are still a product. People need to care about it enough to buy it. That makes it a success or failure. Saying PS5 is inferior or the Xbox Series X has more power really doesn't matter in the long run.
 

j0hnnix

Member
Mar 15, 2014
2,563
810
710
Place where people say Bumble Fuc***
That's like saying I have a Chevy 454(console) but no transmission(Games). I'll add that Xbox has games but they are not at the level Sony Studios are at.. once they get there if ever then promoting the most powerful console won't be so meaningless.
 
Last edited:

93xfan

Member
Feb 23, 2013
2,509
1,244
650
That's like saying I have a Chevy 454(console) but no transmission(Games). I'll add that Xbox has games but they are not at the level Sony Studios are at.. once they get there if ever then promoting the most powerful console won't be so meaningless.
they have much better multiplayer exclusives. The Halo collection alone would justify this comment. Add in Sea of Thieves, Forza Horizon, Gears of War, etc.

Sony definitely has the edge in Single player and adventure games though.
 

j0hnnix

Member
Mar 15, 2014
2,563
810
710
Place where people say Bumble Fuc***
they have much better multiplayer exclusives. The Halo collection alone would justify this comment. Add in Sea of Thieves, Forza Horizon, Gears of War, etc.

Sony definitely has the edge in Single player and adventure games though.
This is true and it's not even much of an argument because it easily turns into a personal preference conversation. The issue with those games minus Gears 1-3(I felt 4 was ok and 5 was good) and Forza the others came out the gate with issues while they were fixed it lost early on traction. It's the same issue with Halo Infinite Xbox had all this hype and excitement and they really failed their fans with that early preview.. I personally hope Halo Infinite gets the needed fixes to demonstrate the series X but they keep falling over themselves.. they have had so many opportunities to continue their momentum from Dec 13 showing of Hellblade 2 and the console.

Sony's conference was mediocre but once they shows demons souls that grabbed so many points, they could of showed the console in a trash can and fans would still go and buy it just for that one game.. imagine if they showed GoW, Bloodborne 2, Uncharted in that one conference.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 93xfan

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Feb 5, 2013
6,667
13,283
1,040
He is right. he has the most powerful console. But no exclusives to take advantage of this power for the first 2-3 years. By that time PS5 Pro would be out so whats the difference?

I think in retrospect, they should've been worried about content. Phil has been talking about setting the bar since E3 2018 when they announced project scarlett. it's shocking how 2 years after that he showed up with a total of 0 next gen games running on his console. CG trailers everywhere. what were you doing for two years?
 

93xfan

Member
Feb 23, 2013
2,509
1,244
650
He is right. he has the most powerful console. But no exclusives to take advantage of this power for the first 2-3 years. By that time PS5 Pro would be out so whats the difference?

I think in retrospect, they should've been worried about content. Phil has been talking about setting the bar since E3 2018 when they announced project scarlett. it's shocking how 2 years after that he showed up with a total of 0 next gen games running on his console. CG trailers everywhere. what were you doing for two years?
2-3 is pretty optimistic on your part. 2 years, and in the meantime we’ll have plenty of third party games taking advantage of it.
 

JordoftheDead

Member
Sep 17, 2007
923
36
995
I think it will forever be restrained by having to develop software to the lowest common denominator so PS5 developed specific software will look more impressive. I'd suggest that the series X will be my multiplat console predominantly.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Jun 22, 2011
9,501
610
825
Holland
By this metric the X1X should've outsold the PS4 and Pro. Its not about power.

And its not like the PS5 is weak. How big is the difference? Its smaller than X1X and Pro IIRC. Unlike the Pro the PS5 has some advantages over its competitor when it comes to hardware.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lysandros
Jun 13, 2020
1,760
3,314
400
By this metric the X1X should've outsold the PS4 and Pro. Its not about power.

And its not like the PS5 is weak. How big is the difference? Its smaller than X1X and Pro IIRC. Unlike the Pro the PS5 has some advantages over its competitor when it comes to hardware.
the ps5 is not weak, but actually the difference is bigger than xbone x - ps4pro
 
  • LOL
Reactions: chilichote

Elder Legend

Member
Jun 10, 2019
1,119
2,409
575
How the fuck do adults still have console wars? Who cares about which system ends up in second place to PC?
Its not adults tho...

Its Manchildren who are still in their moms basement at the age of 40 and those who have never seen pussy and are taking out the sexual aggression on the console wars to feel good.
 
Last edited:
Jun 13, 2020
1,760
3,314
400
You need to go back to school then.
and you need to go to my ignore list, first saying I spread lies then telling me to go to school.

the spec sheet is up there.
already it tells the story, but there are still some parameters left, like how much slower the ps5 cpu will run so that its gpu can output constantly at 2.23, and the opposite.
when we have detailed information on these, the performance delta will widen more
 

Thicc Enigma

Member
Oct 21, 2013
608
1,424
850
Show us what you did then.
Let's just let the games do the talking as proven with current and previous gens. Xbox can boast power all they want but ultimately it's up to the developers to deliver.

The games speak for themselves



I love my Xbox but their marketing needs to take a step back when talking power. Deliver the games that back your statements, then talk.
 

Dodkrake

Gold Member
Feb 28, 2020
1,047
3,888
485
the ps5 is not weak, but actually the difference is bigger than xbone x - ps4pro
So, you're saying that
  • The CPU difference of 100Mhz is bigger than the 170Mhz in previous consoles?
  • The 0GB difference in RAM is bigger than the 4GB difference in previous consoles?
  • The memory bandwidth difference of 28GB/s (used the average for the XBox's values) is bigger than 108.4GB/s difference in previous consoles?
The only thing you can argue where the difference is actually bigger are GPU TFLOPs (1.875 TFLOP difference vs 1.8), but if you actually compare them proportionally, as you should:
  • Is your claim that a 16.72% difference is bigger than a 35.29% difference?
And if we go by percentages:
  • Is your claim that a 2.82% difference in CPU clocks is bigger than the 7.67% difference in previous consoles?
  • Is your claim that a 0% difference in RAM quantity bigger than 40% in previous consoles?
Yeah, you do need to go back to school.
 
Last edited:
Jun 13, 2020
1,760
3,314
400
Yeah, you do need to go back to school.
as I already said, and probably you missed it, there cannot be a consistent 3.5gHz cpu AND 2.23mHz gpu.
how much lower each of them will have to run in order for the other to run at its max value, its an unknown factor until now.
also, the bandwidth of the 10GB mem is what is going to be used for rendering and display. the rest will be for sound, ai, os.
there is also a 150% difference in compute units.
and I have objections on your "proportional comparison", as 2tf are 2tf that one machine will still have when the other -at its best case scenario- is on limit (and with x% slower cpu speed at that time).
in fact, if we take for serious what amd and sony have been saying, 1tf on rdna2 is worth more than 1tf on previous architecture.

and for the bolded, you need to go where previous guy went
 
Last edited:

Berger

Banned
Jul 11, 2020
7
17
85
Let's just let the games do the talking as proven with current and previous gens. Xbox can boast power all they want but ultimately it's up to the developers to deliver.

The games speak for themselves



I love my Xbox but their marketing needs to take a step back when talking power. Deliver the games that back your statements, then talk.
if you want the games to talk then you should also use comparable games.

why do you take a blurry screenshot, where the character is moving fast for xbox and a bullshot for PS4?

And why do you compare an unfinished multiplayer, open world 120fps and 4K game that also supports local splitscreen using an in-game screenshot vs an already finished single-player, closed world, 30fps 1080p game using a cutscene?


I mean a more fair comparison would be using using HELLBLADE II, because this one is also a single player and 30fps:





and yes, this is confirmed in-engine, and yes this looks billion times better than the last of us 2 and is easily a generational leap.
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: chilichote

Dodkrake

Gold Member
Feb 28, 2020
1,047
3,888
485
as I already said, and probably you missed it, there cannot be a consistent 3.5gHz cpu AND 2.23mHz gpu.
how much lower each of them will have to run in order for the other to run at its max value, its an unknown factor until now.
also, the bandwidth of the 10GB mem is what is going to be used for rendering and display. the rest will be for sound, ai, os.
there is also a 150% difference in compute units.
and I have objections on your "proportional comparison", as 2tf are 2tf that one machine will still have when the other -at its best case scenario- is on limit (and with x% slower cpu speed at that time).
in fact, if we take for serious what amd and sony have been saying, 1tf on rdna2 is worth more than 1tf on previous architecture.

and for the bolded, you need to go where previous guy went
Oh for fucks sake, not this again. Reported and ignored.
 

martino

Member
Apr 25, 2013
4,673
2,259
640
France
By this metric the X1X should've outsold the PS4 and Pro. Its not about power.

And its not like the PS5 is weak. How big is the difference? Its smaller than X1X and Pro IIRC. Unlike the Pro the PS5 has some advantages over its competitor when it comes to hardware.
i will never understand how people can consider mid gen refresh are the same thing than a new generation.
 
Last edited:

Thicc Enigma

Member
Oct 21, 2013
608
1,424
850
if you want the games to talk then you should also use comparable games.

why do you take a blurry screenshot, where the character is moving fast for xbox and a bullshot for PS4?

And why do you compare an unfinished multiplayer, open world 120fps and 4K game that also supports local splitscreen using an in-game screenshot vs an already finished single-player, closed world, 30fps 1080p game using a cutscene?


I mean a more fair comparison would be using using HELLBLADE II, because this one is also a single player and 30fps:





and yes, this is confirmed in-engine, and yes this looks billion times better than the last of us 2 and is easily a generational leap.
Find me the best Halo Infinite shot then compare it.

My point was that TLOU2, a current gen game looks better than Infinite, also a current gen game. Two of of each respective consoles top games. The PS4 is a much weaker console than an Xbox One X and yet Sony continues to pump out better looking games on weaker consoles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chilichote

TLZ

Member
Oct 20, 2015
9,741
13,170
870
Sydney
in fact, if we take for serious what amd and sony have been saying, 1tf on rdna2 is worth more than 1tf on previous architecture.
Child, I want to sniff what you're sniffing. I want to feel what you're feeling.

Both machines are rdna2, so 1tf will be the same 1tf between them. There are no multiples here.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Jun 22, 2011
9,501
610
825
Holland
i will never understand how people can consider mid gen refresh are the same thing than a new generation.
The Series X is not going to outsell the PS5, despite being more powerful. I'll gladly eat crow if it does.
 
Last edited:
Jun 13, 2020
1,760
3,314
400
Child, I want to sniff what you're sniffing. I want to feel what you're feeling.

Both machines are rdna2, so 1tf will be the same 1tf between them. There are no multiples here.
There goes the third person in my ignore list today.
You sure have a large mouth for someone who cannot even understand basic things.

As a last gesture towards you -and to avoid having to repeat this over and over again- let me spell it out in a language you may understand, although you dont want to:



- a two teraflop difference (at ps5's best case scenario, with a limited cpu clock while this happens), is a bigger difference than two teraflops on previous architecture.
- exactly the same for compute units
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: chilichote

Jadsey

Member
Nov 22, 2019
231
618
310
The Series X is not going to outsell the PS5, despite being more powerful. I'll gladly eat crow if it does.
MS will be lucky if they sell a quarter of PS5 sales.

X1ESX1 is looking DOA at this point.

But they have Game Pass pumping out mediocre games for a monthly subscription, so MS will be happy.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Rubik8

J_Gamer.exe

Member
May 4, 2020
343
1,882
350
if you want the games to talk then you should also use comparable games.

why do you take a blurry screenshot, where the character is moving fast for xbox and a bullshot for PS4?

And why do you compare an unfinished multiplayer, open world 120fps and 4K game that also supports local splitscreen using an in-game screenshot vs an already finished single-player, closed world, 30fps 1080p game using a cutscene?


I mean a more fair comparison would be using using HELLBLADE II, because this one is also a single player and 30fps:





and yes, this is confirmed in-engine, and yes this looks billion times better than the last of us 2 and is easily a generational leap.

Look at the screenshots you posted look how that trailer runs.

You see the black bars, its also 24fps.

Unless they plan on having the game run at those metrics then seems like they won't get near those levels of visuals.

They couldnt show us anything running on XSX in July so its highly unlikely they had it running back then, it'll most likely have been on PC.

Here's DF analysis on the resolution and framerate.

"But what if it were real-time? The raw specs of the trailer file itself are intriguing. If you look at the metadata of the video - it is mastered at just 24 frames per second and the actual resolution of the rendered frame between the cinematic black bars is 3840x1608: so a little more than 74 per cent of a 'real' 4K in spatial resolution and at 80 per cent of 30fps. All together, that is 60 per cent of the amount of pixels pushed per second compared to 4K30 - and something that's decidedly easier to render than you may expect."

 
Last edited: