FranXico
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"The Most Innovative"
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Microsoft Mesh Mixed Reality, And How It Potentially Demonstrates The Future of VR & AR
- Thread starter thicc_girls_are_teh_best
- Start date
- Opinion Analysis VR
SoloKingRobert
Banned
psvr2 looks cool. all the latest facebook stuff seems cool too. this mesh crap is a whole lot of nothing though. it's like someone missed the party and arrived way too late. boo microsoft, I'm very disappointed in your bad take on vr and you should feel bad too
Cool. Do you have PSVR 2? Any reviews? Last time I've checked PSVR had bundles of wires, while Hololens is wireless.
Microsoft already has their own software for Windows Mixed Reality, they've partnered with Samsung, LG and other companies.
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DrAspirino
Banned
"The best lies are the ones that contain some truth in it". In that regard, the brain subconscious tends to "believe" more in a mixture of stimuli (real and "fake") instead of completely virtual ones.
Yes, VR is cool and all, but AR is the future in immersion, since there's more coherence between different senses (tactile, visual, hearing, smell, etc).
greencoder
Member
Valonquar
Member
The start difference between their vision video and what they demoed was so cringeworthy. Actually most of Ignite has been pretty cringeworthy. At least they are fixing Teams up to compete with Zoom.
The AR they demoed looked like Second life running on a PS2 with flat video cutouts of people from late 80's music videos. When the dancing and human pyramid started I felt genuinely embarrassed for whoever actually worked on the headset and underlying hardware.
The AR they demoed looked like Second life running on a PS2 with flat video cutouts of people from late 80's music videos. When the dancing and human pyramid started I felt genuinely embarrassed for whoever actually worked on the headset and underlying hardware.
General Lee
Member
My guess is AR headsets won't be a consumer thing in the next 5 years at least. Devices like Hololens will stay mostly in industry/medical/military applications in limited quantities for the near future, mostly for specific limited purposes due to the limitations of the tech. Once and if it gets over some technical hurdles it may be a more generic purpose device meant for things shown in the marketing videos, but it's not very likely we'll get any sort of gaming AR headset any time soon. Marketings' attempts at showcasing future tech like this are always eye roll-worthy nonsense, but you shouldn't let that cloud your judgement of what the technology can do now or in the near future. A lot of the potential of VR and AR is hinging on whether some key technology can be developed like fast eye-tracking for foveated rendering. So far it seems development is going slower than expected, and it might be the case there are some fundamental limitations that will forever prevent any sort of high quality fully immersive glasses-sized AR that marketing videos would like you to think is here already.
magnumpy
Member
microsoft has no experience with actual released virtual reality hardware. facebook at least has already been there and done that before. and psvr1 although flawed remains as the single best selling vr platform. maybe microsoft could ask them for some advice as the newbie here. if they are nice enough maybe sony would allow them a place at the table.
As I see it, price is the biggest hurdle right now.
SoloKingRobert
Banned
No shit Sherlock.... Having a single VR device on your platform with no alternatives will sell. On PC there are loads of VR devices to choose from i.e. from Oculus to Windows Mixed Reality. Also, PC VR offers better games and superior graphics. This is why I chose PC last gen when playing VR games. I hope VR devices will be universal on next gen (PS5, Xbox Series). I don't want to be limited to one platform.
Microsoft has no experience? Hololens. It's wireless, more advanced AR. Microsoft has their own called Windows Mixed Reality, and they licensed their OEMs to Samsung, LG, HP etc… Microsoft can create their own VR headset too, what's the point when there are loads available on PC? They can also be universal.
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ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
Always take Microsoft videos / demos of new tech as a mere fantasies that will rarely reach production, and that often they don't even have the slightest intention of ever bringing to fruition beyond tech demos.
Thats before they realised that Hololens is a B2B play, think they don't make as big hardware misses and there was a reason that this latest demo was for Ignite.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
I mean, they do this all the time... the Minecraft demo is just one of a billion essentially dishonest presentations they've given over the years.
Microsoft Research is basically their concept car division, you might not think that they should do it but it's typical doesn't hit production processes. I think the latest major hardware failure from microsoft was probably the Lumia range (sadly cause the main OS was pretty good and influential) and the Band.
Hololens has for the last 3 years been position as a business device, similar to their whiteboard product and the Surface Studio.
This.
I really don't get why this thread is in a gaming forum. They didn't anounce a gaming device. This is for workplaces. Far to expensive to make something with gaming there.
E.g. the thing they showed with minecraft was just to awake some interesst, but nothing more. Not for the near future.
magnumpy
Member
psvr is the best selling of all the vr devices on any platform ever.
hololens isn't an actual consumer product. zero sales. no experience. a pretend make believe platform.
if ms wants to get their feet wet with a practice vr device they are welcome to but something has to actually be released before it can fail let alone succeed. ms are well behind in the vr wars. maybe nintendo could give them some tips since they have much more experience and success with their failed "virtual boy" disaster. ms is starting from less than zero.
Hololens has sold volume, not sure why you are saying it has zero sales. I know because a company I used to work for bought one for example, and they sold a load to the US army.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a25346986/microsoft-hololens-army-deal/
magnumpy
Member
I said it wasn't an actual consumer product. and thus has zero sales to consumers. if they've had 1 accidental sale to a nonconsumer that is an embarrassing failure compared to the actual literal millions of sales psvr has had to gamers. which is the point of this forum, gamers and gaming. this isn't the Business Age Forum for boring businesses and take notes young man this will be on the test
What on earth are you waffling on about.I said it wasn't an actual consumer product. and thus has zero sales to consumers. if they've had 1 accidental sale to a nonconsumer that is an embarrassing failure compared to the actual literal millions of sales psvr has had to gamers. which is the point of this forum, gamers and gaming. this isn't the Business Age Forum for boring businesses and take notes young man this will be on the test
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
I don’t see VR becoming mainstream for a long time, maybe ever. It seems so misguided. Like one of those things you only think you want.
- nobody wants to stand up and pantomime the kind of shit that a typical video game avatar does. Not for any considerable length of time
- even if you’re sitting down with a gamepad, having to sit up straight and move your head/neck around is an annoyance
- nobody wants to wear a damn headset on their head no matter how light it is.
- most people do not want to be fully cut off from their surroundings
- motion sickness is a real problem and it’s not something that is simply caused by technological limitations. It’s due to your visual input telling you you should be experiencing different forces from what you’re actually experiencing
I honestly don’t see VR being used for much beyond short, arcade-like experiences that don’t involve too much rapid character motion. Which is a pretty small subset of games.
- nobody wants to stand up and pantomime the kind of shit that a typical video game avatar does. Not for any considerable length of time
- even if you’re sitting down with a gamepad, having to sit up straight and move your head/neck around is an annoyance
- nobody wants to wear a damn headset on their head no matter how light it is.
- most people do not want to be fully cut off from their surroundings
- motion sickness is a real problem and it’s not something that is simply caused by technological limitations. It’s due to your visual input telling you you should be experiencing different forces from what you’re actually experiencing
I honestly don’t see VR being used for much beyond short, arcade-like experiences that don’t involve too much rapid character motion. Which is a pretty small subset of games.
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Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
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Starhowl
Member
Of course the future of VR, if it ever is gonna happen and Microsoft will release such a headset, will lie with Microsoft.
Why? Simple: If Microsoft releases this, chances are it's gonna be 100% compatible to Windows 10 and software standards.
Now I have to admit what the state with Playstation VR is, but my guess is, it would never be the same.
Why? Simple: If Microsoft releases this, chances are it's gonna be 100% compatible to Windows 10 and software standards.
Now I have to admit what the state with Playstation VR is, but my guess is, it would never be the same.
Rodolink
Member
the only point I see for these kind of marketing videos is to start "brain washing" us into a possible near future, nobody is gonna pay 3k for a Hololens device which is still not mass market. I work daily with these devices and even Microsoft doesn't update diligently their SDKs and plugins. So I don't see the point on showing normal people using this tech.
Maybe in five years.
nevertheless though, this is how things will be with AR integrated in our daily lives just like "phones" did.
Maybe in five years.
nevertheless though, this is how things will be with AR integrated in our daily lives just like "phones" did.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Nintendo released a product that leveraged AR/MR in an unexpected way last holiday season which sold 1 million units worldwide by December 2020.
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Cause it's PR marketing. It's more focused in selling an idea than a practical product (though in this case it's the software platform what they are selling).
This video is more grounded in reality:
Shmunter
Member
I mean the people holograms joining you like its Starwars, the AR projection is self explanatory
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Shmunter
Member
This is Apple territory. Wont count till it’s an iPhone companion, like with the Apple Watch.how many hololens gamers are there on this forum. there must be, like at least 1?
all hail the glorious hololens future which is a sad graveyard full of the corpses of rotten gaming platforms that could have been
But what if, instead of a "full course" AR system with general purpose tasks in mind which is what is often proposed in marketing videos about AR, what is targeted is a simpler system dedicated to tackle one specific task (gaming) with its own set of limitations but good enough in what it does that in conjunction with exciting software could spur demand at a consumer level (and due to the more restricted nature the price would be far cheaper than the thousands of dollars asked for HoloLens).
The latter approach would be seen as "crummy" compared to the "sci-fi like" proposals but could lead to a breakthrough hit at consumer level in a shorter time period.
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namekuseijin
Banned
It's all CGI here. Guy is in the middle of a park, puts his headset to attend a meeting and everyone sees him as a "hologram"? How, are there cameras capturing him in the park?
he'll look just like any Rec Room avatar in VR...
Shmunter
Member
Selling a dream, not the real deal. Like a cgi trailer for a game.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Seems like a good guess; they already partner with Samsung on providing Xcloud on IoT televisions, and Samsung makes their own VR headset so I can see that getting compatibility in the future.
What would be particularly beneficial though is if Microsoft could work out a deal with one of these companies (again, most likely Samsung going by prior history) and provide the headset as a bundle with a system at a decent price. Could help drive adoption rates for it in the ecosystem.
Lol I know PlayStation's doing some big things with VR, haven't heard or seen much on their AR plans though. I did a little more reading into this Mesh stuff and it apparently IS a platform powered through cloud for other VR & AR headsets, including Microsoft's own stuff. It's meant to be hardware-agnostic so that VR/AR code written for the platform can run on any compatible device.
There is at least one such solution already available IIRC, but Mesh would have Microsoft's financial backing (and since this is a big boon for their services and business side, that's a lot of money backing it) and also be powered through the Azure cloud services and hardware. That's the most interesting part IMHO.
Technically speaking, this kind of means that if by some chance through a set of circumstances in the future, Sony's PSVR/PSVR2 headsets could also be Mesh-compatible. Maybe PSVR2 already is, using it as a backend platform to power it for online connectivity. This wouldn't mean PSVR2'd be compatible with Series systems, just that it would be using Mesh as a cloud infrastructure for PS5 games with VR support.
I don't quite see it that way honestly. VR is certainly beneficial but it on its own has limitations. I definitely want engrossment in virtual worlds but mixed virtual engrossment with a physical world that can act as seamless feedback will always be superior.
Just picture a future where a game can generate VR objects superimposed through physical items in the real world, using actual location data (dimensions, air moisture, elevation levels, etc.) to ensure mapping accuracy, all of that being powered through cloud servers and satellite systems. So if you're going to some building, wearing some mixed reality headset, you can actually see a different visual interpretation of that building in real-time as you walk around, based on the game's code.
This is part of the reason why, even though Stadia has been a complete failure, there are SOME aspects of it that actually are very foward-thinking. I think with a better service and ecosystem, and a more serious company or group of companies behind it, this kind of thing could become a reality maybe within the next decade. Preferably I'd like to see Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo establish some kind of consortium alliance to push this forward because the amount of sheer talent and resources needed to make it work, would require more than any single one of them could provide.
Microsoft of course has the financial power and industry/governmental partnerships to make it work plus Azure cloud platform. Sony has the gaming-orientated software resource teams that can provide a lot of the creative backbone for gaming applications (the ICE teams, etc.) plus a lot of media connections and resources that can be leveraged for producing some of the content. Meanwhile, Nintendo has the experience with handheld and portable system designs that are proven to work, and a great wealth of IP like Mario and Pokemon that can be used to creatively explore this type of stuff (we already see it with the Pokemon Go! demo someone posted earlier in the thread).
That's why I think you'd need a consortium alliance between them to help make this happen. Now, that wouldn't necessarily mean they stop making their own console hardware with their own software ecosystems; it'd just mean that for enabling this type of future mixed reality gaming to its peak potential, the three of them (and maybe other companies like Samsung, HTC etc....I don't think the MASSIVE tech giants like Google or Tencent would fit into this because of Microsoft's presence so they'd probably set up their own equivalent type of system) would pool their strengths and resources towards making it happen.
This is a good point, actually. I dunno how good the cameras in VR headsets are, though. Also I don't think any VR headsets or content in particular, leverages the camera to stream a feed that's projected back through the lenses of the headset with VR content mixed in.
To do that I picture you'd need extremely low latency, somehow being able to capture the feed through the camera and stream it back to the system and then the system process the stream and resend it back through the headset. But I'm thinking about this in terms of something that can best mix AR and VR together, so that the stream of the live feed captured through the headset camera is actually processed through the system and the game and virtual objects can be mixed in all of that treated as a single framebuffer that's then streamed back to the headset to display through the lenses.
Would probably need some serious processing power especially for anything of decent fidelity and high, smooth framerates. Theoretically the headset itself could have a lot of this built into it but that also jacks up the price astronomically. I'd love to see this become a reality with 10th-gen systems but it'd require the systems themselves to be built in handling that processing to keep the price of the headsets down (and having enough wireless bandwidth to do this; even with compression, might require something beyond Wifi 6).
I know how marketing and R&D tends to work but this can be said for any tech company in all honesty. Sony, Nintendo, etc., they all have a wide assortment of patents for technologies that'll never show up in a commercial product, or prototypes from R&D that don't go any further than the prototype stages.
This isn't really so much about a specific product so much as it is about what the ideas it's working on could do for gaming over the next ten years alongside with the ideas that other products are iterating on (regardless of their commercial status or lack thereof), in pushing the concepts of VR & AR gaming to their fullest potential to innovate game design.
That's specifically why I mentioned not just AR but also VR and the cloud in the OP; IMO you need all three to converge and synergize together into a platform solution in order to bring about the game design innovations I'm thinking could occur within the next decade.
Those are some limitations of VR for sure, though I'd argue to what degree some of them are actually major roadblocks to its mainstream adaptation. The point of people not wanting to wear a headset regardless of its weight for instance; I figure that if a company's able to produce a headset not much larger or heavier than a pair of glasses, why would anyone be fussed about that? Most people don't have an issue wearing sunglasses and this is a hypothetical headset not much larger than those.
I don't know if any VR headsets already do this, but maybe adding some sensitivity settings/bias levels for registering head tilt and movement would be great. That way you wouldn't need to keep your head movements 1:1 with the game world in order to keep a perspective locked at a certain position. To your last point, that's actually something I think would need addressing in future VR designs for absolutely sure, but it also means having to wear sensors around your body and, well, that gets very tricky and potentially sensitive. For the immersion factor though, I'm sure some folks would love it.
Anything that can cut down on the bigger roadblocks and also more seamlessly integrate the surrounding physical reality into the experience (that way you don't feel physically isolated to the point of causing distress) with little to no micromanagement on the player's side, is going to really help push the medium forward. But I think more content that actually leverages the full potential of VR would help just as much if not more. So far, I don't think there's been a single game that has genuinely done this yet, as virtually all games still feel like traditional gaming experiences with VR modes added on top.
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Kokoloko85
Member
Eventually VR/AR will be so good for games and obviously for other things.
Looking forward to it.
MS and Nintendo will join the Market soon. Ill be buying a PSVR 2, the first was good and fun when I tried it but Im waiting for the tech to be a bit better, especially the controls.
Some people think its like the move or motion controls, but the tech is not gonna go away, its just gonna get better until it takes over
Looking forward to it.
MS and Nintendo will join the Market soon. Ill be buying a PSVR 2, the first was good and fun when I tried it but Im waiting for the tech to be a bit better, especially the controls.
Some people think its like the move or motion controls, but the tech is not gonna go away, its just gonna get better until it takes over
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
The only other "too" in this conversation is not doing well.
Desperate to exit, a $10B price tag for Magic Leap is crazy | TechCrunch
Augmented reality headset maker Magic Leap has struggled with the laws of physics and failed to get to market. Now it's seeking an acquirer, but talks
techcrunch.com
Magic Leap is cutting half of its workforce, will focus only on the enterprise market
Today, Magic Leap confirmed the rumors by announcing a major lay-off. As part of the restructuring, Magic Leap will fire half of its employees. Also, Magic Leap will now focus on the enterprise market.
mspoweruser.com
Romulus
Member
Quest 2 will surpass psvr total sales in 10 months that took psvr 4 years to accumulate. It's on track at nearly a million per month. Having said that psvr outsold all the pcvr headsets combined lol, so it just proves VR is growing.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
I said it wasn't an actual consumer product. and thus has zero sales to consumers. if they've had 1 accidental sale to a nonconsumer that is an embarrassing failure compared to the actual literal millions of sales psvr has had to gamers. which is the point of this forum, gamers and gaming. this isn't the Business Age Forum for boring businesses and take notes young man this will be on the test
Jeez, hostile much?
Anyway, your perspective on this is completely flawed. The merit of a technological product shouldn't be based on its sales numbers, because that actually won't tell you too much of the product itself. Bad products can sell tons of units and copies, good products can barely move volume. It's happened before, happens today and will happen in the future.
Almost all of the gaming technologies we have in the console industry, not just now but pretty much since the very conception of console gaming, have come from other sectors outside of console gaming. The 2600, Intellivision etc. all took their design and feature cues from arcade machines. The 3D that consoles like PS1 helped usher in as a revolution? Inspiration came from arcade boards like the SEGA Model 1, which had it's tech come from companies like Lockheed Corporation and Martin Marietta (now known as Lockheed Martin), who were government military simulation hardware/software companies completely divorced from video games. Same goes for the 3D in systems like the N64, coming from companies like Silicon Graphics who exclusively made hardware and software tools for businesses, military/aerospace, and film production houses (such as Pixar).
The online gaming we saw systems like Dreamcast dabble in and Xbox spearhead with Xbox Live? From the PC, and PC gaming with online play built their systems off the backs off the internet, which only became a public tool after it had spent its early life in academia through university for educational and research purposes. Motion controls, force feedback and the such? That legacy stems back to arcades, and they got the idea from real-life industry production machines that mechanized manual labor tasks at production facilities, warehouses, and other business-manufacturing/labor environments. The SSDs with their decompression technology? Again, from PC, where SSDs have primarily been used for productivity and businesses, including server markets, where the technology was initially introduced. Even things like Sony's I/O block setup can have some of their inspiration traced back to Data Processing Units (DPUs; though true DPUs are often MIMD while obviously the I/O in Sony and Microsoft's systems are SIMD, like the rest of their architecture), which once again originate from the business world, specifically data farms, cloud platforms, etc.
Basically, virtually every innovation or technology (and even most game design elements) in console gaming can be traced back to either gaming sectors outside of consoles, or to business-orientated technology fields such as automotive, government/military, aerospace, medical, etc. So while you are trying to belittle something like Mesh simply because it's not a console gaming-oriented product, you should keep in mind that most future innovations that will come to console gaming, come from areas things like Mesh are specifically a part of and involved in.
Now take those notes sir, for that they'll be on your exam
The only other "too" in this conversation is not doing well.
Desperate to exit, a $10B price tag for Magic Leap is crazy | TechCrunch
Augmented reality headset maker Magic Leap has struggled with the laws of physics and failed to get to market. Now it's seeking an acquirer, but talksMagic Leap is cutting half of its workforce, will focus only on the enterprise market
Today, Magic Leap confirmed the rumors by announcing a major lay-off. As part of the restructuring, Magic Leap will fire half of its employees. Also, Magic Leap will now focus on the enterprise market.mspoweruser.com
This is probably almost a meme but I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft buys them
I tend to post threads in Gaming side, and a lot of what's here is more extrapolating and taking some educated theories at what technology like this could do for gaming in the future, or what it might hint at WRT Microsoft's own plans for VR support in the near future.
Given the amount of genuinely interesting ideas and discussions that've come about from this, I'd say it was worth having as a topic to discuss. It's certainly been stimulating to both speculate on new things related to the technologies at the heart of the discussion, and learning some things about current implementations that might've gone over the head beforehand
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nikolino840
Member
Nude mod or nothing
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