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Microsoft Says Sony Will Benefit From Launching First-Party Games on PS Plus

phil_t98

Gold Member
Again you're ignoring everything that's already been said. I've already replied to all this. Uk is xbox's second largest market. US it charted 2nd then fell off staggeringly fast. Literally made no rolling 12 month charts in the US.

Best selling US (NA) games of 2021, nowhere to be seen:



Rolling 12 month charts in jan, feb or any month after, again nowhere to be seen:

I'm not sure why you are adamant to try and suggest Halo was a good seller but it honestly wasn't.


Right, the game was in the top 20 game sales in December a game that is on gamepass sub as well. The game was played in the first month by 20 million unique players. The fact it is on gamepass and still sold is the point. People make out that games won’t sell because of gamepass. December is one of the biggest months for game sales as there is people who will buy galena for Xmas presents and ask for games for Xmas. IT WAS SECOND IN THE USA FOR DECEMBER.

What are you not getting?

The game still sold well enough there to chart!

As a side note also great to see forza horizon in the best selling games of 2021 to even though it’s on gamepass to
 
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Three

Member
Right, the game was in the top 20 game sales in December a game that is on gamepass sub as well. The game was played in the first month by 20 million unique players. The fact it is on gamepass and still sold is the point. People make out that games won’t sell because of gamepass. December is one of the biggest months for game sales as there is people who will buy galena for Xmas presents and ask for games for Xmas. IT WAS SECOND IN THE USA FOR DECEMBER.

What are you not getting?

The game still sold well enough there to chart!

As a side note also great to see forza horizon in the best selling games of 2021 to even though it’s on gamepass to
Because what you say doesn't make sense at all and you are trying really hard to emphasise its December 2nd ranking in a single region and discard all other information. December was baron for releases. if December itself is the biggest month for game sales and therefor sales are above and beyond other games throughout the year it would make sense that it would chart in the 12 month US chart for 2021. It didn't. It would make sense that it would chart in 12 month rolling US charts any time after, it didn't. Not once.
 
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I’ll never understand people rather paying $70 for a one and done game when you can sub for $10-$15 and finish the game before your month is over and move onto 2-3 other games.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Best selling US (NA) games of 2021, nowhere to be seen:


This is just another example of it being much harder for Xbox titles to chart because of the comparatively smaller user base (though the US was the closest to being balanced last gen). The multi-plats have the obvious advantage of hitting the entire console market, while Nintendo and Sony benefit from having larger install bases. Most of the time console still accounts for 60-70% of these sales, giving Sony and Nintendo a much easier shot at landing on the chart. Plus, you can't deny that both Nintendo and Sony have IPs that loom a little larger than Xbox's to start with (though MS has made strides there with the Bethesda acquisition).
 

Skifi28

Member
I’ll never understand people rather paying $70 for a one and done game when you can sub for $10-$15 and finish the game before your month is over and move onto 2-3 other games.
I like to always have access in my games so I can play them in the pace I want and maybe fire them up again months later. I hate how I have to keep looking over my shoulder with these services for when games will be taken away, so I find myself rushing to finish games instead of actually enjoying them. If the extra money buys me peace of mind, so be it.
 
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again the UK could be gamepass biggest market.

so lets look at Sony game for money then, the most recent search of god of war is over 500 million, Microsoft gamepass has over 25 million subs at the moment so that's roughly over 250 million a month going through their accounts.

Yes money has too go to other companies for the game son there. as we seen the other day an indie dev was paid 600,000 for their game on there. bigger games cost more. wasn't guardians 20 mill to go on there? now factor that in for how much money goes through the accounts a year, nearly 4 billion just off gamepass then what ever sales the games make. Microsoft are doing ok still and I don't get why people bring up this so much. if it was loosing so much money why would Sony convert PS+ into something very similar to gamepass?
Not sure what your post has to do with me correcting you about halo selling?

Also this ridiculous figure of 200million a month being made is assuming people pay monthly when everyone knows how to get it cheap , on offer or practically free in some cases. Also is maths hard 200x12 is 2.4 billion not this comical 4 billion.
 
I’ll never understand people rather paying $70 for a one and done game when you can sub for $10-$15 and finish the game before your month is over and move onto 2-3 other games.

I would gladly be willing to spend $100 for a highly memorable, intricate gameplay system with fantastic writing and characters that I can add to my collection. I have never been a fan of the concept of prolonged rentals (which is essentially what digital is) nor the mindset that sub services provide/promote. It actively makes experiences even more disposable than they already are, which is not what any person who loves this medium should be promoting. Especially when AAA publishers use it as an excuse to create lesser products with content that is “promised” to release over time while they throw increasingly egregious MTX at the player.

Fuck that.
 

phil_t98

Gold Member
Not sure what your post has to do with me correcting you about halo selling?

Also this ridiculous figure of 200million a month being made is assuming people pay monthly when everyone knows how to get it cheap , on offer or practically free in some cases. Also is maths hard 200x12 is 2.4 billion not this comical 4 billion.



There you go
 

Three

Member
This is just another example of it being much harder for Xbox titles to chart because of the comparatively smaller user base (though the US was the closest to being balanced last gen). The multi-plats have the obvious advantage of hitting the entire console market, while Nintendo and Sony benefit from having larger install bases. Most of the time console still accounts for 60-70% of these sales, giving Sony and Nintendo a much easier shot at landing on the chart. Plus, you can't deny that both Nintendo and Sony have IPs that loom a little larger than Xbox's to start with (though MS has made strides there with the Bethesda acquisition).
multiplats will sell more but it's not only that. Halo 4 did fine selling on a single platform, fewer platforms than infinite.

It's not just multiplats that are charting better but what do you mean by IP that loom a little larger? Larger in sales? Yeah, that's exactly the point . Nintendo and Sony predominantly sell games. They wouldn't be selling much if they offered their single player games with no mtxs on a sub.

Halo as an IP isn't exactly small. Halo Infinite has multiple platforms, xbox one/series and PC. PC being huge. Games like Miles Morales are PS4/PS5 only and still charted. Look at the 12 month rolling chart of best selling US (NA) games data released a few days ago:



This is August 2021 till July 2022. If the idea is that December 2021 is huge in sales compared to other months so sales were great and Horizon 2 being PS only, not on PC, and releasing in March. What's it doing there? Where have the so called huge December sales gone for the xbox/PC release?
Do you believe as an IP Horizon Forbidden West is bigger than Halo? Its marketing certainly wasn't and if you believe some of the people here it only sells in bundles (even though NPD don't count bundle sales). Halo as an IP is big, it just didn't sell a lot because people don't need to buy it and it makes f2p mtxs money. Making it seem like it was a great seller regardless though is wrong.
 
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So we have one article guessing 170-180 and now this one saying 250. Which is it?
And unless ms will release numbers (which they won't) it's all just guessing based off fluff.
Do these articles even take into account all the people who concert from gold, offered 1 dollar months or 1 dollar for 3 months?
What about all the free promotions. I'm on a 12 month free GPU from my ISP.

Anyway you've completey changed the conversation from you being wrong about halo infinite being a best seller.
 
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phil_t98

Gold Member
Because what you say doesn't make sense at all and you are trying really hard to emphasise its December 2nd ranking in a single region and discard all other information. December was baron for releases. if December itself is the biggest month for game sales and therefor sales are above and beyond other games throughout the year it would make sense that it would chart in the 12 month US chart for 2021. It didn't. It would make sense that it would chart in 12 month rolling US charts any time after, it didn't. Not once.


so now your trying to say that a game with a release of 1 month will be in a chart of the year? where a game could have 4 average months of sales could beat it because it was only on sale 1 MONTH, the gymnastics your doing to try and down play a game is unreal.

where is Rachel and clank on those lists? where is Returnal on those lists? the only 2 big Sony games released that year? would it of effected Sony much if those games had been on PS+ if had been there then as a sub service?
 

phil_t98

Gold Member
So we have one article guessing 170-180 and now this one saying 250. Which is it?
And unless ms will release numbers (which they won't) it's all just guessing based off fluff.
Do these articles even take into account all the people who concert from gold, offered 1 dollar months or 1 dollar for 3 months?
What about all the free promotions. I'm on a 12 month free GPU from my ISP.

Anyway you've completey changed the conversation from you being wrong about halo infinite being a best seller.


what we know as of January this year they had 25 million subs and that will of gone up since then
 

Mr Moose

Member
This is just another example of it being much harder for Xbox titles to chart because of the comparatively smaller user base (though the US was the closest to being balanced last gen). The multi-plats have the obvious advantage of hitting the entire console market, while Nintendo and Sony benefit from having larger install bases. Most of the time console still accounts for 60-70% of these sales, giving Sony and Nintendo a much easier shot at landing on the chart. Plus, you can't deny that both Nintendo and Sony have IPs that loom a little larger than Xbox's to start with (though MS has made strides there with the Bethesda acquisition).
Huh? It includes Xbox One, Xbox Series and PC. Tell me how they are a smaller userbase than PS4/5.
 

Three

Member
so now your trying to say that a game with a release of 1 month will be in a chart of the year? where a game could have 4 average months of sales could beat it because it was only on sale 1 MONTH, the gymnastics your doing to try and down play a game is unreal.

where is Rachel and clank on those lists? where is Returnal on those lists? the only 2 big Sony games released that year? would it of effected Sony much if those games had been on PS+ if had been there then as a sub service?
You're ignoring the fact that that I also mentioned ALL rolling 12 month periods thereafter. Meaning games that were out for fewer months still outsold it and games that were years old still outsold it. 12 month period ending July 22 would give Halo Infinte the maximum 8 months of sales and games with 5 months of tracking outsold it.

Returnal and Ratchet didn't sell a lot that's correct. We actually have released numbers for Returnal, a PS5 only game. Having a PS5 only single player game with no mtxs on a sub would have been an even bigger disaster. Again this isn't the "my favourite company vs your company" competition you think it is. Whatever low sales they had due to install base or IP recognition would have been even lower had it gone to PS+ day one.
 
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DaGwaphics

Member
Huh? It includes Xbox One, Xbox Series and PC. Tell me how they are a smaller userbase than PS4/5.

Because most of the sales, 60 or 70% in most cases come from console. Let's say demand on PC is the same between a Sony and MS title, the difference comes in with the console sales. PS4+PS5 = a lot more potential customers than X1 + X Series. It looks like that will improve going forward though, MS should have a better share of the market this time around.
 

Three

Member
Because most of the sales, 60 or 70% in most cases come from console. Let's say demand on PC is the same between a Sony and MS title, the difference comes in with the console sales. PS4+PS5 = a lot more potential customers than X1 + X Series. It looks like that will improve going forward though, MS should have a better share of the market this time around.
If 60% of sales come from consoles it means 40% is PC. That means PC + X1 + X Series would account for a larger install base. You've split the install base then compared consoles only when Infinte includes PC. US console sales differ the least too.
 
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DaGwaphics

Member
multiplats will sell more but it's not only that. Halo 4 did fine selling on a single platform, fewer platforms than infinite.

It's not just multiplats that are charting better but what do you mean by IP that loom a little larger? Larger in sales? Yeah, that's exactly the point . Nintendo and Sony predominantly sell games. They wouldn't be selling much if they offered their single player games with no mtxs on a sub.

LOL. No, MS could drop the subscription all together and still not have sales to rival Sony and Nintendo's top IPs (except in the future with Starfield or ES, Doom and things like that). MS's traditional IPs (Halo, Gears and Forza) are simply not as big as their counterparts at the current time. Halo has weakened substantially from the Halo 4 days. So much more entrenched competition in the console shooter space now than in its golden years.

Sony doesn't have a subscription (for new games), why are their titles not as evergreen as Nintendo's? Why can Nintendo put so many games on the top 20 chart every year? Because they have individual IPs that are larger than Sony's. That's how laughable trying to insert GP into this discussion becomes.
 
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Mr Moose

Member
Because most of the sales, 60 or 70% in most cases come from console. Let's say demand on PC is the same between a Sony and MS title, the difference comes in with the console sales. PS4+PS5 = a lot more potential customers than X1 + X Series. It looks like that will improve going forward though, MS should have a better share of the market this time around.
Do you have any numbers to back that claim up?

-

Miles Morales is doing really well, released on November 12th 2020, charting high in 2021 and 2022. Not bad for Niche-Man DLC.

 
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DaGwaphics

Member
If 60% of sales come from consoles it means 40% is PC. That means PC + X1 + X Series would account for a larger install base. You've split the install base then compared consoles only when Infinte includes PC. US console sales differ the least too.

Not all games are split evenly. Some do considerably less on PC others more. Halo is particularly weak on PC, having always been more of an Xbox game. Thus it is still in the top 50 most played on Xbox while being beneath BF on Steam, etc.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Do you have any numbers to back that claim up?

-

Miles Morales is doing really well, released on November 12th 2020, charting high in 2021 and 2022. Not bad for Niche-Man DLC.


A solid game based on one of Marvels most popular characters is selling? I'm flabbergasted.
 

Three

Member
LOL. No, MS could drop the subscription all together and still not have sales to rival Sony and Nintendo's top IPs (except in the future with Starfield or ES, Doom and things like that). MS's traditional IPs (Halo, Gears and Forza) are simply not as big as their counterparts at the current time. Halo has weakened substantially from the Halo 4 days. So much more entrenched competition in the console shooter space now than in its golden years.

Sony doesn't have a subscription, why are their titles not as evergreen as Nintendo's. Why can Nintendo put so many games on the top 20 chart every year? Because they have individual IPs that are larger than Sony's. That's how laughable trying to insert GP into this discussion becomes.

You tell me, why do you think nintendo have evergreen titles?
Sony do have a subscription, they have multiple in fact. They offer their big IPs like God of War 2018, Horizon Zero Dawn, etc on plain PS+ for 'free' too. When you count PS Now or PS+ Extra most have been on there. Mainly because sales have been exhausted though, NOT DAY ONE. The point being made is that sales are lowered with day one releases whereas offering your non-GaaS/no-mtxs games later down the line doesn't deteriorate the initial sales. Some are trying to say sales for MS' biggest IPs are great despite day one releases on GP when they're clearly not though.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Some are trying to say sales for MS' biggest IPs are great despite day one releases on GP when they're clearly not though.

Some are saying that day one access is crippling MS first-party sales, when it clearly is just the result of the IPs not being as competitive to start with combined with having a smaller base of users to sell to.

See, anyone can do this all day. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Jokes aside, I think GP will dent first-party sales without question. But that's okay, MS is making their money from the subscription itself in combination with the remaining sales, same situation as with MS Office.
 
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Three

Member
Some are saying that day one access is crippling MS first-party sales, when it clearly is just the result of the IPs not being as competitive to start with combined with having a smaller base of users to sell to.

See, anyone can do this all day.
Yours is a hypothesis about why it is low. One which I disagree with since I think as an IP Halo is big.

Saying the sales of Halo were high is just an incorrect fact though when the data shows otherwise. I'm not even trying to push my hypothesis on others, just stating its sales weren't good when some are trying really hard to say it was great.
 

yurinka

Member


This is August 2021 till July 2022. If the idea is that December 2021 is huge in sales compared to other months so sales were great and Horizon 2 being PS only, not on PC, and releasing in March. What's it doing there? Where have the so called huge December sales gone for the xbox/PC release?
Do you believe as an IP Horizon Forbidden West is bigger than Halo? Its marketing certainly wasn't and if you believe some of the people here it only sells in bundles (even though NPD don't count bundle sales). Halo as an IP is big, it just didn't sell a lot because people don't need to buy it and it makes f2p mtxs money. Making it seem like it was a great seller regardless though is wrong.
Yeah. To be fair, we have to remember that unlike Halo 4 or Horizon 2, Halo Infinite is a F2P GaaS game, and that its (paid) campaign was in Gamepass at launch. I assume most harcore Halo/MS fans have GP. So most people who played it wouldn't have bought it.

I think it isn't fair to use NPD comparisions for this case beyond aknowledging that MS's new focus made it sell less copies. But making it a F2P GaaS and day one on GP means they want to focus their revenue on digital addo-ons: microtransactions, dlcs, etc.

Another incomplete comparision could be to check out the Steam numbers:
  • Halo MCC has 192K reviews and around 5.5K CCU during the last month
  • Halo Infinite (F2P MP) has 146K reviews and around 6.5K CCU during the last month
  • Halo Infinite (SP campaign DLC) has 3.7K reviews
You could think Halo Infinite underperformed compared to MCC considering it's F2P, but also has been in the market for a shorter period of time and makes more sense for Halo/MS fans to be now on GP/Xbox PC app than when MCC was releasing, meaning that the percent of Halo PC players pretty like is way higher in Infinite than in MCC. But we also should consider that the % of MS fans playing on PC should be higher now with Infinite that back when MCC was released (now all MS games get released day one on PC, and on GP).
 
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DaGwaphics

Member
Yours is a hypothesis about why it is low. One which I disagree with since I think as an IP Halo is big.

And your opinion of how GP is affecting the bottom line for MS first-party is a hypothesis as well. You don't know how many copies would have been sold without the GP inclusion or whether the combined revenue is more or less with GP figured in. It's all conjecture on your part and mine. What is fact is that MS has a smaller base of potential customers and that Sony and Nintendo have IPs that have a greater mind share (speaking of Halo, Gears, and Forza for MS). Forza holds up reasonably well against its direct competition, however.

Halo is big, but not nearly as big as it once was. That's been quite apparent for some time. The real take away from the year-end charts is that MS didn't nurture a strong enough stable of diverse IPs. Something they have openly acknowledged and have taken steps to correct down the line.
 
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Three

Member
Yeah. To be fair, we have to remember that unlike Halo 4 or Horizon 2, Halo Infinite is a F2P GaaS game, and that its (paid) campaign was in Gamepass at launch. I assume most harcore Halo/MS fans have GP. So most people who played it wouldn't have bought it.

I think it isn't fair to use NPD comparisions for this case beyond aknowledging that MS's new focus made it sell less copies. But making it a F2P GaaS and day one on GP means they want to focus their revenue on digital addo-ons: microtransactions, dlcs, etc.
Absolutely with you on everything you said, but people are disputing exactly the bolded, both the theory that it sold less copies due to their new focus and the fact that the campaign didn't sell many copies at all.

And your opinion of how GP is affecting the bottom line for MS first-party is a hypothesis as well. You don't know how many copies would have been sold without the GP inclusion or whether the combined revenue is more or less with GP figured in. It's all conjecture on your part and mine. What is fact is that MS has a smaller base of potential customers and that Sony and Nintendo have IPs that have a greater mind share (speaking of Halo, Gears, and Forza for MS). Forza holds up reasonably well against its direct competition, however.

Halo is big, but not nearly as big as it once was. That's been quite apparent for some time.

Obviously, I even said as much by referring to it saying 'I'm not pushing my hypothesis' . The low sales is not a hypothesis though. They are a fact. One which some continue to try and dispute despite the charts showing it.
 
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yurinka

Member
Absolutely with you on everything you said, but people are disputing exactly the bolded, both the theory that it sold less copies due to their new focus and the fact that the campaign didn't sell many copies at all.
Well, as I remember Infinite ranked lower in sales ranking than Halo 5 so I assume it's fair to assume it sold less.

And it's perfectly understandable because being a F2P people don't need to buy it. And even more: it's on GP so you don't even need to buy the SP. It's perfectly understandable to see why its sales would decrease, I think it's common sense: because they changed their business model to focus their revenue from addons and use F2P and GP to get a bigger userbase, so more people who could potentially spend money in IAP and DLCs.
 
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phil_t98

Gold Member
LOL. No, MS could drop the subscription all together and still not have sales to rival Sony and Nintendo's top IPs (except in the future with Starfield or ES, Doom and things like that). MS's traditional IPs (Halo, Gears and Forza) are simply not as big as their counterparts at the current time. Halo has weakened substantially from the Halo 4 days. So much more entrenched competition in the console shooter space now than in its golden years.

Sony doesn't have a subscription (for new games), why are their titles not as evergreen as Nintendo's? Why can Nintendo put so many games on the top 20 chart every year? Because they have individual IPs that are larger than Sony's. That's how laughable trying to insert GP into this discussion becomes.


God of war franchise through a quick google is 51 million across 14 games

Halo has 81 million across 13 games.

So where is Xbox not competing?
 

DaGwaphics

Member
God of war franchise through a quick google is 51 million across 14 games

Halo has 81 million across 13 games.

So where is Xbox not competing?

I didn't mean it in that way exactly. But, right now, today, God of War is going to sell more copies, regardless of the delivery strategy, IMO. Halo was bigger (much bigger) in the past, but is not at the same level today, is basically what I'm saying. Maybe they can turn it around with future updates to Halo Infinite. It's all subjective anyway.

All I was getting at was that it is hard to say that GP was the only reason that MS hasn't been selling 15-20m copies of Halo, Gears, and Forza. I don't think that they could hit those numbers without GP, at least not with Gears or Halo, Forza maybe if it really clicks. Some of it is just having fewer customers to sell to as well.
 
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phil_t98

Gold Member
I didn't mean it in that way exactly. But, right now, today, God of War is going to sell more copies, regardless of the delivery strategy, IMO. Halo was bigger (much bigger) in the past, but is not at the same level today, is basically what I'm saying. Maybe they can turn it around with future updates to Halo Infinite. It's all subjective anyway.

Microsoft mw model is different, they will never sell as many copy’s these days but the amount of money they making through gamepass plus sales makes up for it.

Different business model that some people can’t seem to get their head around..

As Phil spencer stated they ain’t burning money and it’s sustainable
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Microsoft mw model is different, they will never sell as many copy’s these days but the amount of money they making through gamepass plus sales makes up for it.

Different business model that some people can’t seem to get their head around..

As Phil spencer stated they ain’t burning money and it’s sustainable

That's very true. Individual copies sold is no longer the end-all goal for them. That's going to change the way some of the numbers look for sure. I think the GP strategy is the right way forward, we'll see how it all plays out once the Bethesda and Activision releases start to hit.
 

phil_t98

Gold Member
That's very true. Individual copies sold is no longer the end-all goal for them. That's going to change the way some of the numbers look for sure. I think the GP strategy is the right way forward, we'll see how it all plays out once the Bethesda and Activision releases start to hit.


People never thought it would work or take off (gamepass) I was here when it was announced. People still try find reasons to not like it, Sony even copying it to a point but a less consumer friendly version of it.

There is way over 25 million subscribers now, a few years on . Can see that going massive once COD hits the service
 

kikii

Member
People never thought it would work or take off (gamepass) I was here when it was announced. People still try find reasons to not like it, Sony even copying it to a point but a less consumer friendly version of it.

There is way over 25 million subscribers now, a few years on . Can see that going massive once COD hits the service
i dont like it,i had 3months ultimate for 1€ last time when FH5 was released, played 1.5hrs and uninstalled, same with FH4 ^^
reason i post is that, after reading all these comments im pretty sure its nap time for u :D why u care so much how much MS makes or loses monies cuz of GP,are u a stock holder ? i bet not :p
 

phil_t98

Gold Member
i dont like it,i had 3months ultimate for 1€ last time when FH5 was released, played 1.5hrs and uninstalled, same with FH4 ^^
reason i post is that, after reading all these comments im pretty sure its nap time for u :D why u care so much how much MS makes or loses monies cuz of GP,are u a stock holder ? i bet not :p
Why you care to post if it’s not for you? 😜😜
 
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