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News Microsoft Warns Court That Apple Blocking Epic Will Hurt Games Business

Jeeves

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This petty pissing contest is so entertaining and I don't give a shit who "wins" it.

Anyway. Bad for gaming? You mean bad for mobile gaming...sorry, half of mobile gaming. Yeah I'm really mourning that loss. As for OS X...anyone who actually wants to play games on their Mac already has Windows installed anyway.
 
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Jeeves

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9% then (I don't get where do people get the crazy idea of iOS being 50% of the market).

It also affects MacOS though.
I don't pay any attention to smartphone news, but..even better for my point.

Sounds like at "worst" Apple would be hurting themselves, and at best someone may see it as an opportunity to develop a new middleware so that every other game doesn't have to be running Unreal.
 
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Tim Sweeny's whim?

Looks like entire industry is involved one way or the other.

Tim Sweeney has a controlling stake in Epic, and Unreal engine... and he's a bit nuts, he almost caused Unreal engine to be untenable on iOS.

I wouldn't mistake MS's statement as being in support of Epic here overall either; it's just testimony to a fact.. that the action taken against Epic would harm the industry.
 

reinking

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I am no attorney so let me get that out of the way....


Here is where I think Epic has a problem even when trying to block Apple from removing access to SDK. Apple has already given the courts and Epic a clear path to retain all access including having Fortnite restored to the app store. All Epic has to do is restore their software back to a state that it complies with Apples terms of service. They have even made it clear that Epic can pursue their antitrust trust case with no retaliation as long as all of Epic's software complies with the current TOS. I have high doubts that the courts are going to force Apple to allow another company to include software that breaks their TOS. Especially since Epic has already has proven to be a bad actor. If anything, I would hope Epic comes to their senses and restores all of their software so that it no longer breaks Apples TOS. They have a clear path in which they can fight it out in court without it impacting the Unreal Engine and Fortnite.

I did say I am no attorney. :)

It Looks like Unreal Engine is safe but not Fortnite.
 
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Zefah

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If Apple is able to ban Epic from iOS that affects Unreal Engine. MS has a couple of Unreal Engine games on iOS and other developers do as well. Blocking that engine from accessing Apple's tools would hurt more than just big bad Epic.

Again, maybe Epic shouldn't tie their engine business to their games business which is trying to have a war with the platform holders.

If Epic cared about their development community, they would abide by the terms set out by the platform holders. Breaking the terms and making demands for the platform holder to change them after the fact is not how a reasonable company does business.

You can block an app from the store without blocking someone's developer account. Both parties are being petty at this point.

But this wasn't some kind of mistake or a case of ignorance on behalf of the developer. This isn't just an issue of pulling down the app and asking them to make changes.

This is the developer knowingly breaking the terms and having their CEO state to Apple's CEO that they do not intend to abide by those terms and that Apple needs to change them to accommodate, and then proceeding to wage a PR campaign against Apple to turn the public against them.

There's no doing further business with such a party until they change their mind. It makes sense to terminate their developer account.
 
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Chun Swae

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The judge blocked Apple's retaliatory move to block Unreal Engine so this is good. Apple is facing multiple app store lawsuits from multiple companies all around the world like the Spotify lawsuit in the EU courts and small indie app developers. Mind you most of these lawsuits are about Apple forcing developers to use their In app purchase system for everything you do in the app. from music, comic books, videos etc, instead of allowing people to use their own payment processor which is standard for most app stores and the entire internet. I don't think alternate app stores will be the result of all this or that that is even needed, but the in app purchase requirement which is what developers loathe will hopefully go away.

Not sure why people cheer for apple so much on the internet, when the 30% in app purchase tax raises prices for ios users on things that cost less elsewhere because of it. So it's not really great for the consumer or the dev, just the trillion dollar company.
 
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DadEggs

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I get it. I see both sides.

Apple Can do whatever they want. Its their own store front. If they want to reduce the amount of content and users on their platform so be it. If unreal users have to pay an extra fee so be it.

I get that it might hurt devs or dissuade devs but thats just how the cookie crumbles.
 

Three

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Again, maybe Epic shouldn't tie their engine business to their games business which is trying to have a war with the platform holders.

If Epic cared about their development community, they would abide by the terms set out by the platform holders. Breaking the terms and making demands for the platform holder to change them after the fact is not how a reasonable company does business.



But this wasn't some kind of mistake or a case of ignorance on behalf of the developer. This isn't just an issue of pulling down the app and asking them to make changes.

This is the developer knowingly breaking the terms and having their CEO state to Apple's CEO that they do not intend to abide by those terms and that Apple needs to change them to accommodate.

There's no doing further business with such a party until they change their mind. It makes sense to terminate their developer account.
This is based on the fact that Epic rightly or wrongly believes that they have a legal right to do so hence the court case. Apples terms are what Epic are challenging because what are in the terms still need to be legal. By putting that in the game and going against the terms then filing a court case they are hoping to win and then they can sue for damages (lost revenue due to having the app removed). This will be settled in the court.
However removing the companies developer accounts will not be a good look for apple in the eyes of the court because it will seem like a petty reason to remove their accounts. Epic can actually create another account easily though and abide by the terms.
 
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I am no attorney so let me get that out of the way....


Here is where I think Epic has a problem even when trying to block Apple from removing access to SDK. Apple has already given the courts and Epic a clear path to retain all access including having Fortnite restored to the app store. All Epic has to do is restore their software back to a state that it complies with Apples terms of service. They have even made it clear that Epic can pursue their antitrust trust case with no retaliation as long as all of Epic's software complies with the current TOS. I have high doubts that the courts are going to force Apple to allow another company to include software that breaks their TOS. Especially since Epic has already has proven to be a bad actor. If anything, I would hope Epic comes to their senses and restores all of their software so that it no longer breaks Apples TOS. They have a clear path in which they can fight it out in court without it impacting the Unreal Engine and Fortnite.
The judge essentially implied that Epic are full of shit in his ruling.. they have almost no chance in their actual case, the judge is really just acting here to protect 3rd parties from harm while at the same time scolding Epic for their behavior.
 

Zefah

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This is based on the fact that Epic rightly or wrongly believes that they have a legal right to do so hence the court case. Apples terms are what Epic are challenging because what are in the terms still need to be legal. By putting that in the game and going against the terms then filing a court case they are hoping to win and then they can sue for damages (lost revenue due to having the app removed). This will be settled in the court.
However removing the companies developer accounts will not be a good look for apple in the eyes of the court because it will seem like a petty reason to remove their accounts. Epic can actually create another account easily though and abide by the terms.

Apple does not have to do business with companies that willingly break their terms and wage "war" against them. If their terms are found to be legal, then they are completely within their rights.
 

reinking

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The judge essentially implied that Epic are full of shit in his ruling.. they have almost no chance in their actual case, the judge is really just acting here to protect 3rd parties from harm while at the same time scolding Epic for their behavior.
I read that a ruling had come down after my post. I went back and edited it. It will be interesting going forward. I am not sure about the judges comments about the 30% apple tax since 30% is a standard in the industry.
 

FStubbs

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The judge essentially implied that Epic are full of shit in his ruling.. they have almost no chance in their actual case, the judge is really just acting here to protect 3rd parties from harm while at the same time scolding Epic for their behavior.

So basically, Unreal Engine is too big to fail.

Like I've said, I wonder if some of the bigger Unreal licensees can't simply sue Tencent for failing to deliver an engine with iOS support as agreed upon.
 
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I read that a ruling had come down after my post. I went back and edited it. It will be interesting going forward. I am not sure about the judges comments about the 30% apple tax since 30% is a standard in the industry.
Yeah was just saying your thoughts pretty much align with what the judge said.. Epic knowingly broke a TOS and doesn't have a legal standing to force Apple to deploy their payment method.

(who is a she, darn me for assuming a he I guess)
 

Chun Swae

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The judge essentially implied that Epic are full of shit in his ruling.. they have almost no chance in their actual case, the judge is really just acting here to protect 3rd parties from harm while at the same time scolding Epic for their behavior.
That's not at all what happened, or do you just like to make things up? The judge ruled that Apple had no right to retaliate towards Epic's Fortnite move by suspending the Unreal Engine account since those are two separate entities. This ruling essentially told Apple that they overreached and gave Epic more fuel for it's App store lawsuit.
 
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That's not at all what happened, or do you just like to make things up? The judge ruled that Apple had no right to retaliate towards Epic's Fortnite move by suspending the Unreal Engine account since those are two separate entities. This ruling essentially told Apple that they overreached and gave Epic more fuel for it's App store lawsuit.
Judge scolding Epic:

To Epic: "Your client created this situation. Your client does not come to this action with clean hands ..... in my view, you cannot have irreparable harm when you create the harm yourself."


You are right though, it does sound like the judge said that she felt the Unreal engine action was "retaliatory" and that Unreal Engine has a separate contract (via a different corporate entity) and shouldn't be included in the dispute. Not trying to mislead people, this info is coming from a hard to read twitter thread lol

But the judge indicated they have no chance of forcing Apple to let them deploy their payment method... that they acted purposefully against a contract, etc. She basically told them to just remove the hotfix and move forward with the separate anti-trust case.
 
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Esppiral

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Every single company should be on board of this train and avoid Apple, such an elitist product....
 

reinking

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That's not at all what happened, or do you just like to make things up? The judge ruled that Apple had no right to retaliate towards Epic's Fortnite move by suspending the Unreal Engine account since those are two separate entities. This ruling essentially told Apple that they overreached and gave Epic more fuel for it's App store lawsuit.
True but keep in mind this is just for the TRO and most likely done to prevent any immediate harm to third parties. This ruling will have no bearing on the future preliminary injunction ruling or the overall antitrust lawsuit.
 

Chun Swae

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True but keep in mind this is just for the TRO and most likely done to prevent any immediate harm to third parties. This ruling will have no bearing on the future preliminary injunction ruling or the overall antitrust lawsuit.
True, but I think if Epic's lawyers are worth their salt which I'm sure they are, they'll use the fact that Apple attempted to block their Unreal Engine access over a non related transgression over Fortnite in their antitrust suit.

Whether it be Epic in the US or Spotify in the EU, I really hope one of them come away victorious so app developers can have the choice whether to use Apple's in app purchase system.
 

DrAspirino

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We all know which direction this is heading and I'm surprised it's taken so long.

Apple will be entering the gaming market with a hand-held, all in one device. It streams and plays games, has Apple messenger for traditional texts, Facetime in lieu of traditional phone calls and can be attached switch-style to an Apple TV like device.

They want Unreal off of the Apple ecosystem because Apple games and Apple devs will use Apple's own proprietary game engine, used by third parties and indie-devs alike.
In fact, they even support 3rd party controllers (like Xbox One or PS4) on their Apple TV boxes and have a game subscription service "a la GamePass", so it's really no surprise there. Heck, they even have their own low-level graphics API (Metal) supported on their Apple TV and iOS devices (that even supports Ray Tracing). They literally have everything on the tech side to take a step inside the videogame world. They also have the popularity of their iOS devices (literally hundreds of millions of iPhones out there) and a TV box in many homes. EPIC Store there would be a serious threat to their incursion, just like it would be for Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo.
 
Apr 19, 2019
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Away with the fairies
In fact, they even support 3rd party controllers (like Xbox One or PS4) on their Apple TV boxes and have a game subscription service "a la GamePass", so it's really no surprise there. Heck, they even have their own low-level graphics API (Metal) supported on their Apple TV and iOS devices (that even supports Ray Tracing). They literally have everything on the tech side to take a step inside the videogame world. They also have the popularity of their iOS devices (literally hundreds of millions of iPhones out there) and a TV box in many homes. EPIC Store there would be a serious threat to their incursion, just like it would be for Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo.
Thank you for backing up my theory with evidence. I appreciate the work that you put in there :)

I think it's coming. Who wouldn't buy an IGame device that could play Mario games....
 

Vaelka

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Apple also has extremely strict censorship policies which are also very inconsistent and primarily target games.
 

RevenantX

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Punishing all UE users over what Epic did with Fortnite is crossing the line. 3rd party creators got nothing to do with what Epic did with Fortnite. Ban fortnite is more than enough. Apple will not win complete engine ban case in court.