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Microsoft's Devices Division May Lose it's Multi-Billion $ Android Safety Net

May 16, 2006
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Important Edit:

Please consider the following information that has been brought to light concerning how Microsoft now reports Android licensing profits:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=121578694

Mods may want to move this story to OT, since it seems more a general Microsoft problem, and may be fairly considered less immediately gaming related as previously believed.

--------

Original Post Below:

While Microsoft is on rampage to sign more number of Android vendors to make sure its Android-cash-bank gets richer, M-Cam, a global financial institution has studied several of these patents and has revealed in a report that Microsoft’s claim on these patents is not as robust as previously imagined.

These revelations come to light after the full list of 310 patents was submitted to the Chinese government as part of the review of the purchase of the Nokia acquisition. This follows soon after it was concluded Microsoft’s licensing power could be used to pursue Chinese smartphone vendors, most of whom use Google Android as the primary OS for their range of smartphones.
Throughout 2013, Microsoft reportedly earned a whopping US$3.4 Billion through sales of Android smartphones alone. Since 2010, Microsoft has reportedly rounded up 70% of all Android device manufacturers to pay royalty for the use of its patents. During the same period, in Q2 2013 last year, the software giant earned a total of US$1.51 Billion from Android smartphone vendors. HTC reportedly pays a total of US$5 per Android phone sold to Microsoft,while the largest Android vendor Samsung paid as much as US$12 per Android device sold. This figure is estimated to have far exceeded the revenue generated from the sales of Windows phone devices and also allows Microsoft to recover any losses from the X-box, Skype or Surface division. It’s important to note these earnings to Microsoft came from the sales of Android smartphones alone, while the company also enjoys similar royalty arrangements on Android tablet devices. Therefore, it’s easy to understand that Microsoft’s last year’s earnings from Android, in total, would be at least 15% – 20% higher than US$3.4 billion.

The question remains as to whether Microsoft actually owns proprietary rights to the Android OS or is it unfairly exploiting device makers through an uninformed belief in its supposed innovation. Nearly 70% of Android OEMs have willingly agreed to pay the licensing fee, as they remain wary of the costs of a long drawn-out court battle. Motorola mobility, however, has won several of these cases and has forced some major firms to reconsider their licensing agreements with Microsoft.
Only 21% of Patents Held Had Any Commercial Relevance

Now revelations have also emerged from China, where Microsoft is facing difficulty as the country remains wary of the US technology, as recently demonstrated by the ban on Windows 8 on government computers. To maintain their profits, it is likely that Chinese Android smartphone vendors will resist paying any licensing fee to Microsoft. By making the patent list public, Microsoft may have unwittingly allowed other smartphone vendors to discover whether they have similar patents which precede Microsoft’s patents. This may allow them to negotiate with the tech giant for a better deal.

Interestingly, it was revealed that only 21% of Microsoft’s patents was classified as commercial while 79% was classified as non-commercial. This implies that only a fifth of these patents was relevant, as non-commercial patents have little chance of being licensed and lack market relevance. Also, there are at least 11,000 expired patents from the Android innovation space and another 14,000 from the abandoned Android innovation space. It is believed that companies can now find free alternatives to the Microsoft licensing package.companies which have patents

Moving on to the 127 patent agreement Microsoft holds, even more surprising results were unearthed. At least 40 of Microsoft’s Android patents were proceeded by patents from other companies, which were not mentioned by Microsoft. This finding casts a shadow of doubt over the remaining patents as well. Companies such as Dell Inc. (NASDAQ:DELL), Sony Corp (ADR) (NYSE:SNE) and Panasonic Corporation (ADR) (OTCMKTS:pCRFY) had previously signed licensing agreements with Microsoft.
According to previous estimations Microsoft’s licensing fee revenues could soar to as much as US$8.8 billion by 2017. That now seems unlikely as the next few years will see several legal and business challenges to Microsoft’s Android patent portfolio. There are enough evidences suggesting that several companies, including the largest payer Samsung, are all set to oppose Microsoft’s licensing deals both legally and commercially.
http://www.dazeinfo.com/2014/07/17/microsoft-corporation-msft-android-patent-earnings-challenges-china/#ixzz37oN2EBAC

---

This is being covered all over the net by tech sites, but it may play an important part in the financing of the XBox brand.

Remember the talk last year that Xbox was losing $2B a year, but Microsoft was able to cover those losses with Android?:

According to Nomura analyst Rick Sherlund, however, Microsoft isn't quite over that hump just yet. It is, in fact, bleeding money at an alarming rate, but nobody's noticed because the losses are masked by Android licensing revenues.

"If we start with the overall traditional [Entertainment and Devices Division] business that actually loses money before corporate allocations and back out the nearly $2 billion 95 percent gross margin Android phone royalties, we conclude that Xbox platform plus Windows phone and Skype lose about $2.5 billion per year, and we estimate that the Xbox platform may account for roughly $2 billion of this," Sherlund said.

That staggering loss, he added, "is concealed by the hugely profitable Android royalties" that come out of licensing deals Microsoft has with makers of Android devices, which were forced by Google's infringement on various Microsoft patents during the development of the Android OS. Xbox is a "cool" product and successful consumer franchise, Sherlund said, "but it also loses a lot of money and we think is a distraction to the more enterprise strengths of Microsoft."

Sherlund isn't alone in this view: In January, Forbes analyst Adam Hartung also described the Xbox business as a distraction and today it was reported that Stephen Elop, one of the candidates to replace outgoing Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, said he will sell off the division if he gets the job.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129463-Microsoft-Loses-2-Billion-Per-Year-On-Xbox-Analyst-Says

---

If these patents are weak, they will get challenged. And there goes the "safety net" the Devices Division has enjoyed.

There's probably no division in Microsoft that loses spectacular amounts of money like the Devices division has. The RRoD debacle, Zune, Kin, Surface, and whatever parts of the Nokia deal they had to take on with both the acquisition, and now the approx. 1.3-$1.4 Billion write down Microsoft is making for all the recently-announced job cuts/severances. It's amazing amounts of cash.

Question is...if Microsoft loses a significant portion of this division's "cash cow," how much can gamers honestly expect Microsoft to be eager to invest in the beleaguered XBox?
 
May 16, 2006
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Oooooh, I <3 my Surface :(
I'd kinda like to keep this discussion centered on gaming. But yeah, Surface's massive losses (est. Over $1.2B loss on the first gen) also contribute to the problem.

I think the question about gaming is far more intriguing though. Some gamers tend to just look at Microsoft as this big pile of money, and assume that Microsoft can just spend spend spend their way to success. You can see this attitude in a number of current threads. The question is, how true is that assessment in a world where investors are growing increasingly impatient over the division floundering, while Microsoft's biggest challenge, the future of computing in the mobile space, continues as well?
 

FreddieQuell

Member
Mar 1, 2013
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I'm not sure if I read that right. Microsoft was getting money from android phone makers without telling them exactly which patents they were licensing? How does that work?
 

kyser73

Member
Sep 29, 2013
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I'm not sure if I read that right. Microsoft was getting money from android phone makers without telling them exactly which patents they were licensing? How does that work?
From the article:

Nearly 70% of Android OEMs have willingly agreed to pay the licensing fee, as they remain wary of the costs of a long drawn-out court battle.
When it comes to the kind of legal action MS can bring, many may have viewed paying as a less costly route.
 

nib95

Banned
Feb 26, 2007
34,619
2
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That's actually pretty interesting. I wonder realistically how many parents it claimed royalties off of in the past, it may now lose on the basis of them being weak for commercial use or already preceeded.
 

zhao3gold

Banned
Jan 22, 2013
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Rotterdam, NL
Excuse me, is it gaming related article?

And I don't remember it was said MS lost 2billions per year on Xbox business, but the total loss is about 2billions since the original Xbox... I could misunderstood...
 
May 16, 2006
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Excuse me, is it gaming related article?

And I don't remember it was said MS lost 2billions per year on Xbox business, but the total loss is about 2billions since the original Xbox... I could misunderstood...
Yes. Absolutely.

Please read the OP, especially the second-half. Go to the Escapist arrival linked and follow the links there for more info. This idea that the Android patent profits have been propping up the division has been circulating for some time.

You may not realize this as a junior, but reading the OP is expected. Also, don't do things that may get you accused of thread whining.
 

zhao3gold

Banned
Jan 22, 2013
555
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Rotterdam, NL
Xbox business was quite profit in the last few years due to hardware/software/accessories/subscription sales. How can it lose 2 billions per year????

If Xbox 360 brought 2billions per year loss to MS, I am wondering how much loss PS3 would bring to Sony per year...
 

zhao3gold

Banned
Jan 22, 2013
555
0
0
Rotterdam, NL
Yes. Absolutely.

Please read the OP, especially the second-half. Go to the Escapist arrival linked and follow the links there for more info. This idea that the Android patent profits have been propping up the division has been circulating for some time.

You may not realize this as a junior, but reading the OP is expected. Also, don't do things that may get you accused of thread whining.
But I am not whining your tread... The core of this article is about MS' android patent. I have read the article quite carefully (didn't read the info in the links), I still don't think this is quite game related...

And my 2nd question is about the 2billion loss of Xbox business. I am just doubt it is 2 billion per year or total loss since the original Xbox...
 
Sep 15, 2011
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I'd kinda like to keep this discussion centered on gaming. But yeah, Surface's massive losses (est. Over $1.2B loss on the first gen) also contribute to the problem.

I think the question about gaming is far more intriguing though. Some gamers tend to just look at Microsoft as this big pile of money, and assume that Microsoft can just spend spend spend their way to success. You can see this attitude in a number of current threads. The question is, how true is that assessment in a world where investors are growing increasingly impatient over the division floundering, while Microsoft's biggest challenge, the future of computing in the mobile space, continues as well?
It's hard to know how much that affects their gaming strategy. It may cause them to double down or may make them become more fiscally conservative. Regardless this just shows that MS is not in a position with their investors to just take losses with the Xbone to "win" a console war. Unlike some people's crazy fantasies they are not going to eat another $100 per unit to lower the price to $299 anytime soon just because they can "afford to". Similarly I think stuff like this and not being the market leader has a huge impact on their exclusive externally developed titles. A series like Titanfall last gen would have forever stayed exclusive, now it is not. Last gen Gears of War was a huge franchise, developed by Epic not MS, and it doesn't seem like they will land that kind of fish now.
 

tfur

Member
Oct 21, 2007
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142
1,080
Good to see this getting exposure. They have been doing this shakedown shit for decades.
 

FlyStarJay

Member
Jul 17, 2013
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what sort of patent does MS hold over android? and why are this people paying when the os is from google? They should tell MS to go see google or am i seeing this the wrong way?

Also i hear xbox looses money even during the 360 era. How is it losing money when they were making profit from every game they sell and console + live.
 

serversurfer

Member
Aug 31, 2013
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From the article:



When it comes to the kind of legal action MS can bring, many may have viewed paying as a less costly route.
So MS graciously offered to accept their money in exchange for not suing them, raising phone prices for consumers across the globe, to the tune of billions of dollars a year. Then used those apparently-ill-gotten gains to prop up XBox long enough to try to slip us the 'Bone.

Yeah, that sounds like the MS I know.
 
May 16, 2006
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I have read the article quite carefully (didn't read the info in the links), I still don't think this is quite game related...
You don't see how the potential loss of multi-BILLIONS of dollars from the division of the company that makes XBox is game related?

Huh...

Someone will have to walk you through how a corporate division works. How they are given a budget to work with. How the budget is arrived at with expectations of future revenues covering expected expenditures. Because if you know the basics of that, you'll very quickly be able to connect the dots how this could have impact on the division that some investors already want to spin off or go away.
 

zhao3gold

Banned
Jan 22, 2013
555
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Rotterdam, NL
Looking at the OP, it is the last quote from the analyst that suggests that there is a $2bn loss per year.
I read it. Just think about how come? Xbox brought quite profits in the last few years because of hardware/software/accessories/subscriptions. I know I am not an expert, but just want to how come this happened...

If 2 billions is the total loss since the original Xbox, then I quite believe it, because original Xbox and RROD ate a lot money from MS...
 
Jan 9, 2007
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Hi!
You don't see how the potential loss of multi-BILLIONS of dollars from the division of the company that makes XBox is game related?

Huh...

Someone will have to walk you through how a corporate division works. How they are given a budget to work with. How the budget is arrived at with expectations of future revenues covering expected expenditures. Because if you know the basics of that, you'll very quickly be able to connect the dots how this could have impact on the division that some investors already want to spin off or go away.
Its ties to "gaming" are still pretty tenuous IMO. Whatever, though.
 
Jun 8, 2013
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www.twitter.com
Well I hope android manufacturers, especially HTC come back and throw some fire under that ass for some of these bogus patents. I expect Samsung to open trial but this is ridiculous that MS really got away with having then pay these ridiculous royalties. On the other hand however, OEM are dumb to not even check what they are paying for.

What's really interesting is Samsung is paying damn near $12 per handset but didn't want to give that up to Apple? How does that even work?
 

_Ryo_

Member
May 6, 2013
6,566
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VA
Good for all consumers. (Except for Xbox Consumers)
Good for Android Manufacturers.
Bad for Microsoft.

Though it might be good for MS in the end to give them a more focused vision.
 

Jallopy

Member
Apr 30, 2010
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0
610
Lodi, OH
Do we really think that these android phone makers, some quite large, don't have a team of lawyers to review this stuff prior to paying licensing fees? They wouldn't pay it for unknown patents.
 

soundscream

Member
Aug 23, 2009
17,225
11
735
Looking at the OP, it is the last quote from the analyst that suggests that there is a $2bn loss per year.
Isn't this the same analyst who was part of that hedge fund that just wanted to get MS out of games, and was getting creative with the figures? Because the loses were part of the E&D division which included things like the kin and Zune as well as the Xbox during this period?
 

jaosobno

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Dec 19, 2011
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Well, since Nadella said that Microsoft is now "mobile&cloud" company, I'm wondering, are they considering spinning out or selling devices division?

Gamers might not like it, but if Xbox is nothing but money hole (and it obviously is), Microsoft might kill or sell it one day.
 

zhao3gold

Banned
Jan 22, 2013
555
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Rotterdam, NL
In the last gen, Wii brought huge profits to Nintendo throughout its life.

Regarding to Xbox 360, I believe it ate huge money from MS because low entry price and RROD. But in recent years, I think 360 brought MS profits, but unsure if it is capable of covering all the losses.

Regarding to PS3, it ate money from Sony as well because of its cost. But later, it brought profits to Sony as well.

My question is why we only have the report of 2 billions loss per year from MS, but no any report for Sony...

Xbox360 and PS3 sold equally, why huge difference...

I have read the original article, but feel doubt about it. Anyway, they are expert and I am just a rookie...
 
May 16, 2006
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It's hard to know how much that affects their gaming strategy. It may cause them to double down or may make them become more fiscally conservative. Regardless this just shows that MS is not in a position with their investors to just take losses with the Xbone to "win" a console war. Unlike some people's crazy fantasies they are not going to eat another $100 per unit to lower the price to $299 anytime soon just because they can "afford to". Similarly I think stuff like this and not being the market leader has a huge impact on their exclusive externally developed titles. A series like Titanfall last gen would have forever stayed exclusive, now it is not. Last gen Gears of War was a huge franchise, developed by Epic not MS, and it doesn't seem like they will land that kind of fish now.
I think exclusive deals could still be done, though with the PS4 seemingly enjoying a comfortable lead worldwide, that price would be much higher than it was for the early half of the 360's life cycle.

But yeah, this notion that Microsoft could just slash the price by another $100 to spur sales and eat the loss seemed far-fetched before and should seem way more ridiculous now.
 
Jun 5, 2013
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In the last gen, Wii brought huge profits to Nintendo throughout its life.

Regarding to Xbox 360, I believe it ate huge money from MS because low entry price and RROD. But in recent years, I think 360 brought MS profits, but unsure if it is capable of covering all the losses.

Regarding to PS3, it ate money from Sony as well because of its cost. But later, it brought profits to Sony as well.

My question is why we only have the report of 2 billions loss per year from MS, but no any report for Sony...

Xbox360 and PS3 sold equally, why huge difference...

I have read the original article, but feel doubt about it. Anyway, they are expert and I am just a rookie...
It's a 2 billion loss for the Microsoft Devices division which includes Xbox among other hardware devices. It's really really not that hard to understand.
 
May 16, 2006
16,437
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In the last gen, Wii brought huge profits to Nintendo throughout its life.

Regarding to Xbox 360, I believe it ate huge money from MS because low entry price and RROD. But in recent years, I think 360 brought MS profits, but unsure if it is capable of covering all the losses.

Regarding to PS3, it ate money from Sony as well because of its cost. But later, it brought profits to Sony as well.

My question is why we only have the report of 2 billions loss per year from MS, but no any report for Sony...

Xbox360 and PS3 sold equally, why huge difference...

I have read the original article, but feel doubt about it. Anyway, they are expert and I am just a rookie...
Microsoft spends money. Lots of money. Remember the $500M promotional campaign for Kinect? Stuff like that has never been uncommon for Microsoft. The RRoD cost at lease $1.2B. The exclusive deals. The splashy launch events. These things are in addition to R&D costs and distribution, the cloud, and all the normal stuff. It all adds up. It's pretty easy to hide these expenditures when you have another part of the division making billions off patents though. That's WHY that revenue stream was stuck into that division instead of a general "intellectual property income" spot on the ledger like other companies might do.
 

zhao3gold

Banned
Jan 22, 2013
555
0
0
Rotterdam, NL
It's a 2 billion loss for the Microsoft Devices division which includes Xbox among other hardware devices. It's really really not that hard to understand.
"If we start with the overall traditional [Entertainment and Devices Division] business that actually loses money before corporate allocations and back out the nearly $2 billion 95 percent gross margin Android phone royalties, we conclude that Xbox platform plus Windows phone and Skype lose about $2.5 billion per year, and we estimate that the Xbox platform may account for roughly $2 billion of this," Sherlund said.

Microsoft spends money. Lots of money. Remember the $500M promotional campaign for Kinect? Stuff like that has never been uncommon for Microsoft. The RRoD cost at lease $1.2B. The exclusive deals. The splashy launch events. These things are in addition to R&D costs and distribution and all the normal stuff. It all adds up. It's pretty easy to hide these expenditures when you have another part of the division making billions off patents though. That's WHY that revenue stream was stuck into that division instead of a general "intellectual property income" spot on the ledger like other companies might do.
But, 2 billions per year. Xbox 360 was on the market for 8+ years, that means 16billions in total...
 
Feb 3, 2007
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what sort of patent does MS hold over android? and why are this people paying when the os is from google? They should tell MS to go see google or am i seeing this the wrong way?
Android is derived from linux, read up on MS tactics to kill linux in the late 90s / early 2000s and c+p those tactics to the mobile and tablet markets.
They won't go after Google directly, because Google would fight it and challenege those patents.
As long as those patents are unchallenged, they can be used as the basis of litigation.

What's really interesting is Samsung is paying damn near $12 per handset but didn't want to give that up to Apple? How does that even work?
You don't see why a company wouldn't want to pay $24 on every handset sold to a couple of shakedown artists? One claiming Linux stole from Windows, the other saying nobody would have rounded off the corners of metallic trapezoids you put in your pocket?

The Ms shakedown is at least offset by cross licencing agreements to sell Windows Phones. Apples extortion is just a straight up fuck you to fair competition.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Jan 14, 2010
17,476
2
0
You don't see how the potential loss of multi-BILLIONS of dollars from the division of the company that makes XBox is game related?

Huh...

Someone will have to walk you through how a corporate division works. How they are given a budget to work with. How the budget is arrived at with expectations of future revenues covering expected expenditures. Because if you know the basics of that, you'll very quickly be able to connect the dots how this could have impact on the division that some investors already want to spin off or go away.
Xbox is split in two divisions now. Which division are these Android patent license agreements counted in?
 
May 16, 2006
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Xbox is split in two divisions now. Which division are these Android patent license agreements counted in?
Judging by the what the analysts and investors groups say, I would assume it's in the Devices division, not in "other" or whatever they are calling "other" now. I just picked up on this story, as it hit my news feed a couple hours ago.
 

Radec

Member
Sep 2, 2010
20,789
1
710
I wonder why can't just MS sit the phones and tablets space out.

They are now getting tons of cash from royalties even without lifting a finger or selling a product.

Is Tizen also covered by these patents? if that takes off Samsung can get away from Android step by step.
 

FreddieQuell

Member
Mar 1, 2013
1,687
0
340
From the article:



When it comes to the kind of legal action MS can bring, many may have viewed paying as a less costly route.
So they were just folding to Microsoft without any resistance at all? Did even asking to see which patents they are infringing on mean a costly court battle?

This quote made me feel like they have no clue which patents Microsoft was charging them for in the first place and that seemed wierd to me.:
By making the patent list public, Microsoft may have unwittingly allowed other smartphone vendors to discover whether they have similar patents which precede Microsoft’s patents.
 

Oersted

Member
Mar 14, 2012
32,330
1
0
So MS graciously offered to accept their money in exchange for not suing them, raising phone prices for consumers across the globe, to the tune of billions of dollars a year. Then used those apparently-ill-gotten gains to prop up XBox long enough to try to slip us the 'Bone.

Yeah, that sounds like the MS I know.
Eeeh, Sony does extremely similar things. Patent trolling is a huge business.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Apr 23, 2010
13,063
1
830
Eeeh, Sony does extremely similar things. Patent trolling is a huge business.
I dont think Sony engages in this sort of thing to even remotely the same degree, so you'd better have some facts to back that one up son!
 

evildede

Banned
Nov 6, 2004
681
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Montreal
So MS graciously offered to accept their money in exchange for not suing them, raising phone prices for consumers across the globe, to the tune of billions of dollars a year. Then used those apparently-ill-gotten gains to prop up XBox long enough to try to slip us the 'Bone.

Yeah, that sounds like the MS I know.
Because MS would obviously had stopped making games consoles if it weren't for the Android royalties, right? Give me a break...
 

JaggedSac

Member
Jan 14, 2010
17,476
2
0
Judging by the what the analysts and investors groups say, I would assume it's in the Devices division, not in "other" or whatever they are calling "other" now. I just picked up on this story, as it hit my news feed a couple hours ago.
Which devices division? There are multiple. One would think that the Android licensing would go in the Devices and Consumer Licensing division, which XBox is not in. The structure of their financial reporting changed drastically since that Escapist article.

Devices and Consumer Licensing
Devices and Consumer Hardware (XBox hardware)
Devices and Consumer Other (XBox software)
Commercial Licensing
Commercial Other
Corporate and Other
 
May 16, 2006
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So they were just folding to Microsoft without any resistance at all? Did even asking to see which patents they are infringing on mean a costly court battle?
Probably figured if the 1000-lb gorilla Samsung had to settle and take the deal back in 2011, they had no chance. Google basically said Samsung was foolish to take the deal at the time and in an unusually-aggressive statement outright accused Microsoft of extortion.

"If Samsung truly believed that Google's acquisition of Motorola Mobility was going to be helpful to the Android ecosystem at large, it would have waited until that deal is closed before concluding the license agreement with Microsoft. But Samsung probably knows it can't rely on Google. It decided to address Android's intellectual property issues on its own."

Google hit back at Microsoft with a punchy statement. A spokeswoman said: "This is the same tactic we've seen time and again from Microsoft. Failing to succeed in the smartphone market, they are resorting to legal measures to extort profit from others' achievements and hinder the pace of innovation. We remain focused on building new technology and supporting Android partners."
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/sep/28/samsung-microsoft-android-licensing-dispute
 

Oersted

Member
Mar 14, 2012
32,330
1
0
I dont think Sony engages in this sort of thing to even remotely the same degree, so you'd better have some facts to back that one up son!
Intertrust, joint venture between Philipps and Sony. Well known patent trolls.

All what I'm saying is with the current legal system, everyone tries to get into this lucrative market and it is not something typical for company XY.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Jun 6, 2004
33,449
0
0
USA
blog.gattsu25.com
So they were just folding to Microsoft without any resistance at all? Did even asking to see which patents they are infringing on mean a costly court battle?

This quote made me feel like they have no clue which patents Microsoft was charging them for in the first place and that seemed wierd to me.:
Yes, you can threaten legal action against someone over patents without ever telling them which patents you are using to sue them. The cost of a court battle starts in the millions and most patent cases are held in court districts that near unanimously side with the party that filed the lawsuit- it's a win win for the filing party as the terms are unfavorable to the defendant in either scenario. There was a great "This American Life" episode on this a few years back..

[Edit: Episode 1 and Episode 2]

Some recent decisions by the Supreme Court have made it more fair for defendants...but these settlements were all signed before that happened.
 

AmFreak

Member
May 28, 2010
1,959
0
645
I already said this when it first came up half a year ago but there is no way that the XBox division prior to the One lost $2 billion per year.