-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Mike Laidlaw talks about the cancelled Dragon Age 2 DLC Exalted March
- Thread starter GavinUK86
- Start date
GavinUK86
Member
spindoctor
Member
"The reaction"
"Feedback cycle"
Bioware probably still thinks Dragon Age 2 was a great game.
"Feedback cycle"
Bioware probably still thinks Dragon Age 2 was a great game.
It was the best Dragon Age game.
Peroroncino
Member
Maybe with Origins and Inquisition out of the picture.
But not to sound overly positive about Inquisition, even though I think it was better than 2, Origins shits on both of them from up high.
Despite the later backlash, lots of people still wanted further story DLCs into DA2.
2 had the best gameplay and pacing imo. It was focused and it had a good story.
Sanctuary
Member
Not really, but it did have its moments for sure. It just would have been a lot better with much less recycled areas, and especially the "ANOTHER WAVE!" garbage that completely tossed tactical positioning out of the window.
Yep.
Garrett Hawke
Member
It was a great game
It wasn't what people wanted and it has obvious flaws but it's still a great game
Much better characters than Inquisition, too
Origins and Awakening were far superior. Can see an argument it was on par/better than Inquisition I suppose.
Far superior to Origins and Inquisition
BRocknRolla
Member
And this is why DA is a dead series.
Edit: Ugh. Opinions and all, but honestly for people who think Origins is a bad game, and DA2 is a good game, I really wish you had just gotten your own series rather than wiping out everything good about the original.
I'm not sure if the timeline of this makes sense. The earliest game using the version of frostbite that DAI used was BF4 in 2013, which was 2 years after DA2. DAI itself came out in 2014. DA2 came out in 2011. They really didn't have time to work on DLC? They announced the cancellation of this DLC on March 2012 and they were releasing DLCs up until October 2011. If the game was successful, they would have gone forward with this DLC.
Garrett Hawke
Member
You can love both (I do)
I'm still hoping the next one will be closer to Origins though. Would love to see a game a little bit bigger than Origins - so larger but still as dense - but with all the modern visual trimmings.
The term "great game" has no meaning anymore if suddenly DA2 qualifies. It was a great effort from an under pressure team shat out in a record time, but it was closer to 'crap' than it was to 'great', and it was nowhere close in quality to DA:O at all, which is actually a real "great game".
MisterShine
Member
Guys I like DA 2 a lot more than the average Game-Internet-Forum denizen, but calling it the best Dragon Age is fuckin' ludicrous.
On-topic: I always really enjoy behind the scenes stuff like this, especially since we kind of knew about EM before it got canned. Just enough to get us guessing and excited, only to be whisked away.
On-topic: I always really enjoy behind the scenes stuff like this, especially since we kind of knew about EM before it got canned. Just enough to get us guessing and excited, only to be whisked away.
Garrett Hawke
Member
They're very different games. It is obvious that DA2 was rushed (ctrl c ctrl v) yet it still had an incredibly compelling story and characters, something that the next game in the franchise kind of failed to do. DA2 has sooo many compelling little side stories, wonderful voice acting, and really good world building of Kirkwall despite the repeated environments the moment you step foot outside of the city.
It got the reviews it did for a reason. They should never have titled it DA2 though, it should've been a spin off.
Mike Laidlaw seems like a really cool guy. Good on them for trying to support the game even if the feeback wasn't encouraging. Pretty happy to not have to endure more Sebastian to be honest.
Calling it great is really generous. It uses like the 4-5 same areas again and again for all quests while poorly pretending they are different and new by blocking some paths. Enemies come in wave from the ceiling and walls so strategy is pretty much non existent. Every party member outside of Aveline is awful, insane, stupid or a combination of the three. The dumb elf that lives in the wrecked mansion for 10 years and followed me even though he kept reminding he hated mages while I was a mage was the worst. Honorable mention for the other elf that keeps repairing the evil mirror while everyone and their mother tell her not to and the religious guy that keeps sermonizing everyone about violence while he asks you to murder people to join your team. Anders was also a huge step down from Awakening in this.You can also sex everyone even if they hate you because the Bioware Social Forum found it wasn't fair to not have romance when you are mean to people.
There's only one city in the game, it's small and it barely changes over 10 years. You learn specialization by simply dumping points into one without having party member teach it to you or finding the book. No interactivity from party member from the classes you choose (no one cares if you are a blood mage in this). The deep road is basically a long hallway with a boss. And I could keep going on.
Coming from Origins/Awakening to this was a huge shock to me.
Calling it great is really generous. It uses like the 4-5 same areas again and again for all quests while poorly pretending they are different and new by blocking some paths. Enemies come in wave from the ceiling and walls so strategy is pretty much non existent. Every party member outside of Aveline is awful, insane, stupid or a combination of the three. The dumb elf that lives in the wrecked mansion for 10 years and followed me even though he kept reminding he hated mages while I was a mage was the worst. Honorable mention for the other elf that keeps repairing the evil mirror while everyone and their mother tell her not to and the religious guy that keeps sermonizing everyone about violence while he asks you to murder people to join your team. Anders was also a huge step down from Awakening in this.You can also sex everyone even if they hate you because the Bioware Social Forum found it wasn't fair to not have romance when you are mean to people.
There's only one city in the game, it's small and it barely changes over 10 years. You learn specialization by simply dumping points into one without having party member teach it to you or finding the book. No interactivity from party member from the classes you choose (no one cares if you are a blood mage in this). The deep road is basically a long hallway with a boss. And I could keep going on.
Coming from Origins/Awakening to this was a huge shock to me.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I disagree with your assessment of the characters although the way you wrote it did give me a smile.
The gameplay changes are why it shouldn't have been called Dragon Age 2. If it had been something else and they'd positioned it as an action spin off I don't think people would've been as taken aback as they were when it launched.
As for the repeated content, it is annoying but they didn't really have an option. I don't think it hinders the experience too much personally but it was disappointing coming from the amazing and beautiful variety of environments in the first game.
FrontalMonk
Banned
People are really seeing a different story than I am at the end there, huh? He flat out says "After parts of DAIIs feedback cycle that meant a LOT to me." That sounds to me like "damn, our game fell really flat, people fucking hated this game that we rushed like shit to get out the door, to see that people actually still liked the game that we poured ourselves into makes me feel better about my life choices". But hey, maybe I'm reading too far into it.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
No. We got the Dragon Age we wanted, and you got Divinity. Everybody wins.
Coriolanus
Banned
Even if you only focus on the mechanics of the game, DA2 was a failure. The waves of enemies were completely at odds with any sort of strategy beyond "blow them up asap", wot with them spawning on top of you, making positioning largely irrelevant. Whatever choices you may make during the course of the story are also rendered irrelevant due to the way the final stretch was written/shat, wot with BOTH SIDEESSSS. Particularly annoying, given the landsmeet in the first game.
Given that tactical combat and choices were the things that DA:O did quite well (tespecially for a brand new ip) the sequel, necessarily, is not a great game.
cool qunari design change tho.
Given that tactical combat and choices were the things that DA:O did quite well (tespecially for a brand new ip) the sequel, necessarily, is not a great game.
(also DA2 had not one character as interesting as loghain)
cool qunari design change tho.
this is fair. Had it been called something like, say, Dragon Age: Brotherhood of Steel people wouldve adjusted their expectations somewhat.
this "dragon age 2 was good" revision is killing me
the game sold so poorly that retailers literally refused to stock GOTY editions. Dragon Age: Origins was Bioware's best selling game until Mass Effect 3 iirc.
By no metric was Dragon Age 2 good. Bad story. Bad characters. Bad wave-based gameplay. Poorly designed classes and combat. There was literally nothing good about the game but the concept, which was abysmally executed.
Also, on maxed out graphics, it still looks like this:
the game sold so poorly that retailers literally refused to stock GOTY editions. Dragon Age: Origins was Bioware's best selling game until Mass Effect 3 iirc.
By no metric was Dragon Age 2 good. Bad story. Bad characters. Bad wave-based gameplay. Poorly designed classes and combat. There was literally nothing good about the game but the concept, which was abysmally executed.
Also, on maxed out graphics, it still looks like this:
CrichtonKicks
Member
Both DLCs for DA2 were legitimately good. Especially Legacy.
Bioware consistently puts out some damn good DLC.
Garrett Hawke
Member
They announced via twitter that it was using frostbite 3 in march 2013. It's not unreasonable to think they had been working on the game for one year at that point.
I'm not sure if the timeline of this makes sense. The earliest game using the version of frostbite that DAI used was BF4 in 2013, which was 2 years after DA2. DAI itself came out in 2014. DA2 came out in 2011. They really didn't have time to work on DLC? They announced the cancellation of this DLC on March 2012 and they were releasing DLCs up until October 2011. If the game was successful, they would have gone forward with this DLC.
Edit: actually, as is pointed out in that article, Dragon Age 3 (as it was known at the time) was referenced as using frostbite in November 2012.
So... the critics just all got really high, got paid off by ea, or had weird fever dreams and wrote their reviews based off that?
Hey where can I read about this?
I have no idea why the critics said what they did. Critics also hated godhand.
Y'know what I do know? Dragon Age Inquisition got a ton of amazing reviews, and the overall fan (and media!) response to the game after its great reviews have been... astonishingly tepid.
I have no idea; it's been, what, seven years since I had those conversations? Sorry.
DeadlyParasite
Member
A shame. Game still has my favourite characters and moments in the series. Has a meaty story adventure unlike Inquisition and doesn't have any of the horrifically drawn out sections like the Fade and Deep Roads in Origins.
The DLC starring Felicia Day was kind of weird though.
The DLC starring Felicia Day was kind of weird though.
PeskyToaster
Member
I like all the Dragon Age games. I think the world they built is super compelling. Probably one of the best original "worlds" in gaming
Garrett Hawke
Member
Maybe people just liked it at the time?
People were railing against PC Gamer's review at the time, so no, people didn't just like it at the time. I loathed it.
And let's not forget the GAF OT.
Garrett Hawke
Member
So enthusiast forum that was very attached to the first game which was a more traditional pc rpg hated the sequel which went in a very different (more streamlined) direction
Like... yeah, as has already been discussed in this thread, it is very different to origins and falls short in many ways compared to it. But something not being what you want does not make it bad.
I don't care for Doom but I don't think it's bad.
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
Definitely had better characters than DA:I. Even the anime elf was awesome.
"Great game" is way too generous especially with how repetitive the combat/locations got. The story had some good bits but there are some just flat out awful writing too. Don't even get me started on that stupid ending.
IgotElbows
Member
DA2 was one of the worst demos I have ever played. I played it after hearing so much from from DA1.
Ploid 3.0
Member
I sure liked it, even after knowing that a lot of people hated it. The thing I didn't like were the graphics (thought they looked worse than DA Origins, so many sharp angles), the recycled maps, gear for the rest of the party, and how you could only create Hawk, Mass Effect style. The gameplay was plenty tactical for me, especially with increased difficulty mods. I loved it's tactical menu settings, combo programming, and number of slots. It was great. Then there's the story, loved it, the blood magic part with Hawks mother really crept me out, more than any game I've played. So sad and messed up.
I finally got around to tackling Deep Roads DLC and it is now my favorite Deep Roads in Dragon Age. So much content, and loot. I like the Deep Roads in the games because they have so much to fight, I wish there were mods to repopulate this zone. Some things respawn but not nearly enough to be threatening.
Not how it looks on ultra on my rig! Did you not download the free high-res texture pack dlc?
There is a difference between subjective feelings towards a game, and critical analysis of it. And no, critical analysis doesn't necessarily mean professional critics.
Vault Dweller Does Dragon Age II
I think it's possible to for them to believe DA2 wasn't great, and also that the reaction they got to it was was overblown.
Agent_4Seven
Tears of Nintendo
Same goes for DAI. Furthermore, they always bring up GOTY as if it means anything and making the game much better than it actually is. It means nothing, BioWare, deal with it.
Ploid 3.0
Member
This is how I read it, I didn't realize some people might have seen it in a different way. He even said they didn't expect many people to show up. "the feedback cycle was so good people won't show up to see what we have to talk about!"
My god. Perfection! And that ending!
EA Superior: What did we learn, Laidlaw?
Mike Laidlaw: I don't know, sir.
EA Superior: I don't fuckin' know either. I guess we learned not to do it again.
Mike Laidlaw: Yes, sir.
EA Superior: I'm fucked if I know what we did.
Mike Laidlaw: Yes, sir, it's, uh, hard to say.
EA Superior: Jesus Fucking Christ.
I needed that laugh.
No. The Feedback Cycle at big companies like these involves having community managers and marketing people scour gaming forums like GAF to find excerpts about specific problems people had and collect data on amount of specific mentions of what people hated the most. The heads of the teams get to go over that criticism with the marketing people and their bosses and "plan for the future" which often means having to listen to (often true) scathing criticism of something you just spent a chunk of your life killing yourself for.
DA2 had some ridiculous development cycle of something like 11 months. That is savage. The people involved had to answer for the direct criticisms of Dragon Age Origins (too generic looking, gather the races and save the world plotline, combat "shuffle" and poor console interface) while building a RPG in a year. So they broke their backs over it and likely had troubled times that they found breakthroughs they were proud of, struggled through other portions that they tried to hide the weaknesses of, and did the best they could. There are a lot of very specific things to like about DA2 and the team was likely proud of those things.
The audience thought otherwise. When you're really close to it, you often see your own triumphs over the struggles you're going through rather than the overall triumphs of game design. The audience doesn't see the 16 times you did that mission design before finally ending up on one that actually works. They don't see how you had to re-script the entirety of the 5th chapter of the 2nd act because the modellers couldn't budget enough time for your dungeon. Etc.
His comment was specifically about how, after hearing all the "feedback", he was pretty sure everyone hated his game and all the flaws were laid bare for him. He was likely crushed; no one wants to put out something that everyone hates. But finding a group of people that saw the good side of the game probably touched him and motivated him to keep going.
Which is good for humans.
For the record, I didn't like DA2, but the Bioware knife twisting is sad these days.
you're disingenuously attempting to argue a different point.
On its own merits, the game doesn't work. If you liked it, fine, but it's a bad video game, by any basic understanding of game design. This is ultimately why it sold poorly (people didn't like it) and why EA went in such a radically different offline MMO direction for Dragon Age: Inquisition.
There's a reason Bioware folks I've talked to have told me to "never ask anyone who worked on the game what they think about it."
Yabberwocky
Member
EM is still my disappointing 'what if' when it comes to DLC, but I understand why Bioware didn't go ahead with it. Both Legacy and Mark of the Assassin had a ton of party banter for small DLCs, I really enjoyed them. Sadly, the DA:I DLCs barely had any, even ME DLCs didn't really have much either, sans maybe Citadel.
Remember how almost every dungeon was the exact same map and geometry with some doors blocked off?