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MS doesn’t want you to have cool DLC for free: Gears,Epic, & gamers get screwed

I

-ImaginaryInsider

Member
Piper Az said:
They can't because it'd make EA and Ubisoft look bad? What? Every company is each's own. They shouldn't have to look out for EA or Ubisoft's image. If people think they're short-changing us, compared to free DLC from EPIC, so be it. Why would EA's or Ubi's stance on DLC affect companies like EPIC? Or think of it this way - I think instead of forcing EPIC to charge for their DLC to save EA's tactics/image, microsoft should force EA and other companies to stop charging us for petty DLC in reference to EPIC.
Click to expand...

They aren't looking out from EA or Ubi-soft, they're looking out for the Live Marketplace, but there has to be a better way of doing it than "forcing" developers in either direction. There has to be some kind of compromise.
 
A

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Piper Az said:
They can't because it'd make EA and Ubisoft look bad? What? Every company is each's own. They shouldn't have to look out for EA or Ubisoft's image. If people think they're short-changing us, compared to free DLC from EPIC, so be it. Why would EA's or Ubi's stance on DLC affect companies like EPIC? Or think of it this way - I think instead of forcing EPIC to charge for their DLC to save EA's tactics/image, microsoft should force EA and other companies to stop charging us for petty DLC in reference to EPIC.
Click to expand...

Probably the same reason they charge $59.99 instead of $49.99. To maintain competitive balance. Even though if garners them more money that way, that is only the result of competitive balance. Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft could easily sell their games $10 or more cheaper but to have their games appear on the same level playing field, they price the games where the 3rd parties price their games. If you notice for some DS games, Nintendo charges more than the 3rd party. You want to have happy 3rd parties. It's one reason why Microsoft got rid of their sports division. They want to help 3rd party, not fight against them.
 
L

lix2k3

Member
I can't wait until all the whining about XBL and paying for downloads stops. You have a choice. Buy a 360, pay for gold, and buy whatever you can afford/desire on the marketplace. If something is crap or you feel like it's not worth it, don't buy it. Or, boycott or do whatever it is you have to do....there are TWO competing platforms. Get a PS3 or a Wii and ejoy. I don't really get it.

MS is leading in this space. As a result, they're probably going to charge for that experience. I compare it to cable vs satellite. You don't have to buy a satellite dish and receivers when you get cable. That doesn't stop people from choosing Directv over cable because of the areas that Directv has consistently led in. They have the best picture quality and sports packages. With 360, if you want the most consistent online experience, then you get what you pay for. And, the same way I don't order Directv's crappy pay per view movies, I don't buy pictures or themes on the marketplace. If you don't want to be nickeled and dimed, then don't buy anything. I can't see getting pissed because a company is charging for something that has never existed on a console previously. Someone had to create it...and I doubt they're working for free.

I can see expressing your opinion that the Gears content should be free due to the possibility of splitting the userbase. But, the uncontrallable whining and bitching about the evil powers who actually charge for content is giving me a headache. When Sony starts charging for underwear on Home, I guess Nintendo will be the last bastion of hope for the pro-consumer game movement. Good luck with that.
 
P

Piper Az

Member
Agent Icebeezy said:
Probably the same reason they charge $59.99 instead of $49.99. To maintain competitive balance. Even though if garners them more money that way, that is only the result of competitive balance. Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft could easily sell their games $10 or more cheaper but to have their games appear on the same level playing field, they price the games where the 3rd parties price their games. If you notice for some DS games, Nintendo charges more than the 3rd party. You want to have happy 3rd parties. It's one reason why Microsoft got rid of their sports division. They want to help 3rd party, not fight against them.
Click to expand...

Much of microsoft's 1st party games are listed as $49.99 (and that's the stance that microsoft officially took when the 360 first launched), compared to 3rd party 360 games' price: $59.99. Isn't that exactly opposite of what you're saying regarding "helping 3rd parities"?
 
I

-ImaginaryInsider

Member
Piper Az said:
Much of microsoft's 1st party games are listed as $49.99 (and that's the stance that microsoft officially took when the 360 first launched), compared to 3rd party 360 games' price: $59.99. Isn't that exactly opposite of what you're saying regarding "helping 3rd parities"?
Click to expand...
MS "biggest game", Halo 3, is $59.99 for the regular edition according to EB games...and then add the rumors of a September launch intended to help out 3rd parties from being overshadowed during X-mas, I think he has a valid point.
 
A

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Piper Az said:
Much of microsoft's 1st party games are listed as $49.99 (and that's the stance that microsoft officially took when the 360 first launched), compared to 3rd party 360 games' price: $59.99. Isn't that exactly opposite of what you're saying regarding "helping 3rd parities"?
Click to expand...

outside of that launch period and viva pinata, all are $59.99
 
P

Piper Az

Member
lix2k3 said:
I can't wait until all the whining about XBL and paying for downloads stops. You have a choice. Buy a 360, pay for gold, and buy whatever you can afford/desire on the marketplace. If something is crap or you feel like it's not worth it, don't buy it. Or, boycott or do whatever it is you have to do....there are TWO competing platforms. Get a PS3 or a Wii and ejoy. I don't really get it.

MS is leading in this space. As a result, they're probably going to charge for that experience. I compare it to cable vs satellite. You don't have to buy a satellite dish and receivers when you get cable. That doesn't stop people from choosing Directv over cable because of the areas that Directv has consistently led in. They have the best picture quality and sports packages. With 360, if you want the most consistent online experience, then you get what you pay for. And, the same way I don't order Directv's crappy pay per view movies, I don't buy pictures or themes on the marketplace. If you don't want to be nickeled and dimed, then don't buy anything. I can't see getting pissed because a company is charging for something that has never existed on a console previously. Someone had to create it...and I doubt they're working for free.

I can see expressing your opinion that the Gears content should be free due to the possibility of splitting the userbase. But, the uncontrallable whining and bitching about the evil powers who actually charge for content is giving me a headache. When Sony starts charging for underwear on Home, I guess Nintendo will be the last bastion of hope for the pro-consumer game movement. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

So suppose you are playing GoW online in a situation where some people have new killer weapons because they could afford to / decided to buy them while other players don't have them...that's perfectly fine with you?
 
L

lix2k3

Member
Piper Az said:
So suppose you are playing GoW online in a situation where some people have new killer weapons because they could afford to / decided to buy them while other players don't have them...that's perfectly fine with you?
Click to expand...

Quite frankly, expansion packs have been part of the gaming industry for a long time. The connectivity of consoles has taken that concept of expansions and cut it down into smaller, but more frequent updates. When I had Halo 2, I didn't buy the map pack from my local gaming store. And, I'll have the same option when GOW's DLC is released. I can choose to not buy it in the same way. That's a perfect parallen between these two scenarios except one was disc-based and one is through XBL. All of a sudden, perhaps because of the convenience of downloading, people expect that the content should always be free. They didn't expect it back then, so why now? When the Halo 2 map packs came out last gen, did you walk into EBGames and ask for the disc and walk out happily with your wallet intact? Not you personally, but you get my drift.... Seriously.... what is the thought process that goes into expecting something for free simply because it's in downloadable form?
 
X

xsarien

daedsiluap
If a developer and a publisher both agree that they want a certain, downloadable extra to be free, Microsoft should oblige. You need to play VERY nicely with the people who are basically your console's lifeblood.
 
P

Piper Az

Member
lix2k3 said:
Quite frankly, expansion packs have been part of the gaming industry for a long time. The connectivity of consoles has taken that concept of expansions and cut it down into smaller, but more frequent updates. When I had Halo 2, I didn't buy the map pack from my local gaming store. And, I'll have the same option when GOW's DLC is released. I can choose to not buy it in the same way. That's a perfect parallen between these two scenarios except one was disc-based and one is through XBL. All of a sudden, perhaps because of the convenience of downloading, people expect that the content should always be free. They didn't expect it back then, so why now? When the Halo 2 map packs came out last gen, did you walk into EBGames and ask for the disc and walk out happily with your wallet intact? Not you personally, but you get my drift.... Seriously.... what is the thought process that goes into expecting something for free simply because it's in downloadable form?
Click to expand...

EPIC had been offering downloadable bonus packs for Unreal Tournament for free...why are you saying that free downloadable contents are something that's unheard of?
 
J

J-Rzez

Member
lix2k3 said:
When Sony starts charging for online matchmaking, I guess Nintendo will be the last bastion of hope for the pro-consumer game movement. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

There we go... fix'er right up for ya there! That's the complaint here... You pay for their service, and they're forcing you to pay on top of that... See, Sony can charge for things like that underwear thing, tv's, whatever... That's fine, I don't care for it, I won't buy it... But I'm not paying Sony for the privilege to later pay them some more for something Devs wanted to give for free, especially after I just paid them for the game itself...

MS is trying to nickle and dime it... and XBL isn't a MMO...
 
B

BlueTsunami

there is joy in sucking dick
lix2k3 said:
Quite frankly, expansion packs have been part of the gaming industry for a long time. The connectivity of consoles has taken that concept of expansions and cut it down into smaller, but more frequent updates. When I had Halo 2, I didn't buy the map pack from my local gaming store. And, I'll have the same option when GOW's DLC is released. I can choose to not buy it in the same way. That's a perfect parallen between these two scenarios except one was disc-based and one is through XBL. All of a sudden, perhaps because of the convenience of downloading, people expect that the content should always be free. They didn't expect it back then, so why now? When the Halo 2 map packs came out last gen, did you walk into EBGames and ask for the disc and walk out happily with your wallet intact? Not you personally, but you get my drift.... Seriously.... what is the thought process that goes into expecting something for free simply because it's in downloadable form?
Click to expand...

What Piper Az stated

Also, a couple of Maps and new Weapons is not an Expansion pack (Look at The Elder Scroll series (on the PC and 360) to see what an actual Expansion pack is).
 
R

Ryudo

My opinion? USED.
Why doesnt someone high up the the gaming media confront microsoft about this ? Make a massive bad press article about it on a high traffic site and make them hurt ?

There are a number of issues they need to be publicly pressed about;

-DLC fees
-Third party peripheral support - yeah logitech wheel support ffs (screw your pos wheel)!
-BC - of course its a joke.
-Marketplace features for regions is a joke. They have no problems taking our money, but the marketplace is full of stale shit, especially here in australia.
-Marketplace download speeds are horseshit.

It would be really nice to see someone like peter moore or shane kim really had a go at about this shit on camera. Sony are doing everything right in my opinion (except price i guess), yet they cop nothing but crap from the media.
 
L

lix2k3

Member
BlueTsunami said:
What Piper Az stated

Also, a couple of Maps and new Weapons is not an Expansion pack (Look at The Elder Scroll series (on the PC and 360) to see what an actual Expansion pack is).
Click to expand...

If you want to get into semantics, doesn't a map pack "expand" the multiplayer portion of the game? Nonetheless, Unreal tournament is a different game with a different publisher. The biggest blockbuster that Microsoft has, Halo 2, had a map pack that wasn't free. I expected that the Gears map pack wouldn't be free.

Honestly, MS should've worked this shit out with Epic a long time ago when they signed the deal knowing their history. Epic seems like they have this arbitrary outlook on expanding the game for free simply because they did it on PC. As we all have seen, it's a different market. If they want to do the consumers a good deal, flesh out the storyline a bit better in an extra episode. I'd gladly pay $10 extra for something more immersive than "find the resonator." If you really think Epic is on our side, wow.... I think it's a bit more complicated than the Epic is trying to help us out story. It sounds like a pretty complicated deal, with Epic trying to stand up against MS in some kinda bullshit, indie pride sorta way while Microsoft apparently has an agenda that doesn't include giving away a potential couple million dollars.

Free content is possible and has happened plenty of times. The day I popped in crackdown....4 new downloadable characters for free. If MS wanted to nickel and dime us, they could've thrown that in a pack and charged for it. Sometimes you pay, sometimes you don't. I don't see the big deal. I just don't see the bitching every five minutes when something has a price tag attached to it. In the specific case of Gears, ok...I do agree it should be free because of the harm it could do to the multiplayer aspect. Other than this specific case, some people just need to chill with the sweeping, overgeneralizing comments on marketplace content as a whole. Paying for stuff on the interwebs is here and here to stay....buy it or ignore it, and get on with life.
 
B

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
lix2k3 said:
If you want to get into semantics, doesn't a map pack "expand" the multiplayer portion of the game? Nonetheless, Unreal tournament is a different game with a different publisher. The biggest blockbuster that Microsoft has, Halo 2, had a map pack that wasn't free. I expected that the Gears map pack wouldn't be free.

Honestly, MS should've worked this shit out with Epic a long time ago when they signed the deal knowing their history. Epic seems like they have this arbitrary outlook on expanding the game for free simply because they did it on PC. As we all have seen, it's a different market. If they want to do the consumers a good deal, flesh out the storyline a bit better in an extra episode. I'd gladly pay $10 extra for something more immersive than "find the resonator." If you really think Epic is on our side, wow.... I think it's a bit more complicated than the Epic is trying to help us out story. It sounds like a pretty complicated deal, with Epic trying to stand up against MS in some kinda bullshit, indie pride sorta way while Microsoft apparently has an agenda that doesn't include giving away a potential couple million dollars.

Free content is possible and has happened plenty of times. The day I popped in crackdown....4 new downloadable characters for free. If MS wanted to nickel and dime us, they could've thrown that in a pack and charged for it. Sometimes you pay, sometimes you don't. I don't see the big deal. I just don't see the bitching every five minutes when something has a price tag attached to it. In the specific case of Gears, ok...I do agree it should be free because of the harm it could do to the multiplayer aspect. Other than this specific case, some people just need to chill with the sweeping, overgeneralizing comments on marketplace content as a whole. Paying for stuff on the interwebs is here and here to stay....buy it or ignore it, and get on with life.
Click to expand...
That was amusing, but valiant nonetheless. Bravo.

*golf clap*
 
P

Piper Az

Member
lix2k3 said:
In the specific case of Gears, ok...I do agree it should be free because of the harm it could do to the multiplayer aspect.
Click to expand...

so you agree with the "bitching" that started this whole thread. good.
 
G

gollumsluvslave

Member
PiperAz:-.
They shouldn't have to look out for EA or Ubisoft's image.
Click to expand...

I agree entirely, but I *shouldn't* have to have worked 2 hours overtime last Thursday to cover someone who was ill, but the *reality* of the situation is that I had to, or suffer the consequences...

Did you see the quote from the Team17 staff member?
We are planning a lot of free content, but ultimately those controls are down to Microsoft because they have a lot of other companies serving downloadable content who wish to protect their 'value' (would be less so, if for example, all our stuff was free).
Click to expand...
And the other from earlier:-
"We've even been told that the rules of the game may vary depending on hoW much clout your company has with Microsoft.
Click to expand...

There it is in a nutshell, IMHO - now I do argue that MS should grow a pair and be firm with publishers and leave pricing up to them. But it depends on what agreements are in place with EA and so forth - based on the 'clout' factor, I'd wager that EA have agreed concessions with MS on Marketplace content - EA having final say on price being one of them.

Keep some publishers and devs happy, piss off others. Simple enough.

Now if EA wanted to put free content on Marketplace, that would be interesting :lol :lol
 
S

Safe Bet

Banned
Ryudo said:
Why doesnt someone high up the the gaming media confront microsoft about this ? Make a massive bad press article about it on a high traffic site and make them hurt ?
Click to expand...
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

Edit:

News Flash: FOX News to air harsh expose of Bush Administration's manipulation of American Media prior to Iraq War at 10:00 PM CST tonight!
 
L

LAMBO

Member
Epic seems like they have this arbitrary outlook on expanding the game for free simply because they did it on PC.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's not arbitrary, maybe they do it to to keep/expand a loyal fanbase that buys their games knowing that the company is committed to improving the game over time.

Epic isn't intersted in the console wars, they are in the middle of the dev/publisher wars and want people to want EPIC games for every reason possible, they are competing against EA, unbisoft, even Ms's games.

If this is about publisher appearances I'm sure MS isn't all too concerned with ubisoft or Ea looking bad for charging for DLC. I'm sure MS themselves don't want to look bad for all they things they are going to try to get you to buy for HALO 3. Halo3 will probably have more DLC to purchase for it than any game ever.
 
P

Piper Az

Member
AmishNazi said:
UT3 is going to tell the tale so to speak.

Will MS still charge if Sony allows DLC for free?
Click to expand...

Perhaps not. But, you can already find nice small games for free on the PSN, and that's already lowering the "competiveness" bar compared to LIVE.
 
T

TheFallen

Member
What free games? PS3 only has Gran Turismo HD which is only a shell of what could have been a game. Not any different from 360's free Hexic.
 
L

lix2k3

Member
bishoptl said:
That was amusing, but valiant nonetheless. Bravo.

*golf clap*
Click to expand...

Oh I get it...this is like when you're arguing with someone and in an admission of defeat, instead of responding intelligently, he simply laughs and rolls his eyes... In that case, you clapped, but you forgot to end it with the sigh that almost always accompanies those antics...

Piper Az said:
so you agree with the "bitching" that started this whole thread. good.
Click to expand...

Stating your opinion about a particular piece of content and hopelessly whining about the end of the world as we know it because of marketplace transactions are two different things...
 
D

Defcon

Banned
...and this is why gaming is heading into the shitter. Greedy ass companies FTL. I liked it a lot better when video games weren't popular.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
Piper Az said:
Perhaps not. But, you can already find nice small games for free on the PSN, and that's already lowering the "competiveness" bar compared to LIVE.
Click to expand...

I've got no beef paying 10 bucks for stuff like Alien Hominid and Worms. Honestly, in the last few weeks XBLA has been beating up on the PSN downloads. Not everything that is downloaded from Microsoft is a bad value, not at all.
 
P

Piper Az

Member
beermonkey@tehbias said:
I've got no beef paying 10 bucks for stuff like Alien Hominid and Worms. Honestly, in the last few weeks XBLA has been beating up on the PSN downloads. Not everything that is downloaded from Microsoft is a bad value, not at all.
Click to expand...

Yup. I agree totally. LIVE has some of the best downloadable games that you can buy anywhere. The games that you've mentioned plus a lot more others. Just don't ask us to pay for a multi-map pack that could split the userbase...oh yeah, allegedly the creators of the game wants it to be free.
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
The real question here is; What the **** do we do about it? They're not going to notice a few hundred people that boycott it when hundreds of thousands immediately shell out the points to get it.
 
B

border

Member
McDragon said:
Well, how about taking this thread to Microsoft directly?
Click to expand...
They have XBLA project managers that post and read here. Those people mostly seem to disappear when there's a controversy though.
 
C

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
WickedAngel said:
! You mean PSN has free demos?! Microsoft should've thought of that.
Click to expand...

You cant have a demo of a game that will never come out. ;)

GTHD is NOT a demo, you have unlockable cars, content, and the ability to download worldwide online rankings and replays. Its a free minigame as far as I'm concerned.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
platypotamus said:
Man... this probably means the DLC that Realtime Worlds wants to offer us Crackdown players for free probably won't be free either.
Click to expand...

The 100 remaining achievements points have to be accessible via free DLC, per Microsoft policy, right?
 
A

a Master Ninja

Member
chubigans said:
You cant have a demo of a game that will never come out. ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, you can. I have a "Red Star" demo. E3 always has at least a few demos of games that will never get released. GTHD was just practice to help Polyphony Digital get used to the PS3 hardware, in preporation for GT5. You've just played the GT5 "pre-alpha" build.

chubigans said:
GTHD is NOT a demo, you have unlockable cars, content, and the ability to download worldwide online rankings and replays. Its a free minigame as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

Lot's of demos have unlockable content and online functionality. Feature-wise its not out of the "demo" realm. You can view it as a "free game" if you want, but it doesn't go above and beyond demos you can find on the PC or Live.

beermonkey@tehbias said:
The 100 remaining achievements points have to be accessible via free DLC, per Microsoft policy, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, but these new achievements will not be tied to new content. It will just be the last 100 points assigned to some new tasks, like "Fall 200 feet" or "Juggle a body for 20 seconds" etc.
 
T

theultimo

Member
Piper Az said:
oh yeah, allegedly the creators of the game wants it to be free.
Click to expand...
I trust Epic wants this content to be made free, going back on past experiences. What other company do you know what would release free map packs/new games modes a year after the game is out? Also, this company is +1 in regards to piracy too. UT99, 2k3 Came out on PC with copy protection, right? After the game dropped sales wise, the stripped it out, just for the consumers benefit. The community efforts are outstanding.
 
C

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
a Master Ninja said:
Lot's of demos have unlockable content and online functionality.
Click to expand...

Name a 360 downloadable demo that has unlockable content and online downloads. Functionality as far as a free online map is different.

MS doesnt allow devs to save with demos, so the answer is- none.
 
A

a Master Ninja

Member
GFW asks questions directly related to this topic in a new interview.

GFW: What about requiring third-party developers to charge for content that they might prefer to offer free of charge?
JJR: Developers are still in control, on the console as well as on PC. They choose what to do.

GFW: Epic is another story with Gears of War, but if they said, "We don't want to charge for whatever content we're doing," would that be their decision to make?
JJR: I think developers determine what to make and how to make it. If they wanted to use PayPal in Live Marketplace, we're going to say, guys, we're using Microsoft points.

GFW: I'm talking entirely free. No points, no payments.
JJR: We're certainly not forcing anybody to do anything.

Good to know 1UP has our backs. Microsoft doesn't give really give any straight answers to them, though. :(
 
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