Muslim woman who refused handshake at job interview wins case

DeepEnigma

Member
Dec 3, 2013
19,654
14,429
585
General question to all the religious freedom dudes from the bakery thread:

Not baking a cake for people due to your religious beliefs is super a-ok, but refusing a handshake due to religious beliefs is the pinnacle of evil here?
Now ask the same question to those supporting religious freedom in here, but not to the white Christian male. ;)
 
Last edited:

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,838
6,068
335
General question to all the religious freedom dudes from the bakery thread:

Not baking a cake for people due to your religious beliefs is super a-ok, but refusing a handshake due to religious beliefs is the pinnacle of evil here?
Either you allow both or neither for me. If the bakery can than she should too.

Personally I think none of them should have this freedom.
 

guggnichso

Member
May 16, 2005
1,277
342
1,155
germany
See post 38. The short answer is that I feel both beliefs should be supported.
Yeah, I read that. The only thing where we disagree is that I think individuals should at the very least get the same protection that companies get. The common employee is at a disadvantage compared to employers anyway.

Also, personally, I think religions should in general be practised in ones own personal, private space and not considered in day to day interactions. For me, both the woman and the bakery can fuck right off.

But I’m very interested in the opinions of those very vocal defenders of not baking wedding cakes for gay people.
 

guggnichso

Member
May 16, 2005
1,277
342
1,155
germany
Now ask the same question to those supporting religious freedom in here, but not to the white Christian male. ;)
Those people are such a minority on this board nowadays that I can actually read their post history and see for myself 🙂

Edit: I forgot an „and“.
 
Last edited:

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,838
6,068
335
A religious person politely declined to shake the hand of a member of the opposite sex? Yep, you're right, multiculturalism is dead....../s
So we allow now deiscrimination based on gender as long its is a religious matter? So can I not hit my wife since it is preached in religious tv shows all over the middle east. Its my religion after all.
 

Noboru Wataya

Bored at work, horned up to the gills
Jul 8, 2016
995
970
455
28
Northern Ireland, UK
But I’m very interested in the opinions of those very vocal defenders of not baking wedding cakes for gay people.
They bakery would bake cakes for gay people no problem.

They didn’t believe in making that specific cake, due to the advertising/messaging included on it, as it would be associated with their bakery and that would be a big no no in their church going community. They are backwards twats, but they didn’t refuse service to anyone just because they were gay.

 
Last edited:

guggnichso

Member
May 16, 2005
1,277
342
1,155
germany
So we allow now deiscrimination based on gender as long its is a religious matter? So can I not hit my wife since it is preached in religious tv shows all over the middle east. Its my religion after all.
Hitting someone is a crime, refusing a handshake is just rude. This is in no way comparable.

Comparable to would be for example: You‘re invited to dinner with your business partners. They don’t provide kosher food. You politely decline eating it because of your religious beliefs.

That might be seen as rude, but is also not a crime.

Or, more mundane: you‘re a recovering alcoholic. Your business partners invite you to a beer or wine to celebrate your transaction. You politely ask for a non alcoholic beverage due to you being an alcoholic. This might be considered rude, but is not a crime.

Edit 2: I feel like doing a Voight-Kampff Test here 😅😇
 
Last edited:
Nov 13, 2016
1,312
1,053
240
And if they they feel shaking hands is an absolutely required part of the job, then let the interview continue, and just don't hire her. Simple as that. Don't cause a scene, and make someone feel targeted because of their religion.
Why put up this charade when it's clear from the start she's not getting the job? It's just a waste of everyone's time. I think the company did the right thing here to just tell her the truth.

Not baking a cake for people due to your religious beliefs is super a-ok, but refusing a handshake due to religious beliefs is the pinnacle of evil here?
Refusing a handshake is fine too, but she's not running the company, is she? The company she applied to required her to shake hands. She wouldn't, so her application was rejected.

If a bakery hired a Christian and forced them to bake a cake for gay customers, I'd be defending the company as well. If the employee doesn't want to bake cakes for a gay wedding, they should look for another job.
 

TheShadowLord

Member
Jan 7, 2018
2,319
967
320
things like it what will cause countries with populist movements would be so willing to do drastic or perhaps even controversial things.
 

Fbh

Member
Dec 6, 2013
10,470
2,422
580
Seems like a lot of trouble that they could have avoided by just finishing the interview and then simply not hiring her
 
Nov 13, 2016
1,312
1,053
240
The weren't divided, they were dissenters.
"The court also disagreed with the firm's assertion that Ms Alhajeh's approach to greetings would cause a problem for effective communication as an interpreter.

However the judges were divided over the case - with three supporting Ms Alhajeh's claim and two voting against."

I'm just quoting exactly what the article says.
 

Relativ9

Member
Nov 18, 2012
1,690
343
425
Narvik, Norway
We have a similar case in Norway where the genders are flipped. This time it's a male Muslim substitute teacher who was fired because he refused to shake the hands of his female co-workers.

I don't really think it's necessary to fire these people just because they greet people differently depending on their sex, but you got to laugh at the hypocrisy of them going to court over claims of discrimination, when the very reason this is a problem is that they were discriminating who they shook hands with.
 

luigimario

Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,340
608
250
So we allow now deiscrimination based on gender as long its is a religious matter? So can I not hit my wife since it is preached in religious tv shows all over the middle east. Its my religion after all.
Yes, that's the samething....
 

bucyou

Member
Feb 3, 2018
775
832
235
Same people defending this are the same ones that chastised Mike Pence fo refusing to have one on one meetings with women due to HIS religious beliefs.

Sadly at this point I cannot say Im surprised.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
4,098
4,233
460
When in Rome do as the Romans. If you can't handle giving a handshake as part of your job, sorry. Also, a customer can't force any business to do business with them. Different issues.
 
Jan 9, 2018
584
894
240
General question to all the religious freedom dudes from the bakery thread:

Not baking a cake for people due to your religious beliefs is super a-ok, but refusing a handshake due to religious beliefs is the pinnacle of evil here?
Who said that? I think most advocates of religious freedom here are perfectly fine with both.
 

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
3,910
2,567
415
I feel bad for both people involved. The woman was probably just following her beliefs. The interviewer probably had no idea that was a real thing. I don't really feel comfortable with people suing for something like this when its basically punishment for not being familiar with something different than the norm, but that's just my personal view and doesn't mean I think she's a bad person for it.
 

TheGreatYosh

Member
Jul 19, 2018
1,015
703
240
Handshakes are a part of western culture. She should really stick to a culture of no handshakes. Problem solved.
 
Oct 29, 2009
2,958
30
665
Seems like a pyrrhic victory. She gets a little money but other muslim women will not get invited to interviews at places where the owner doesn't want to deal with this shit.
 

TrainedRage

Member
Feb 3, 2018
3,708
3,951
370
33
USA
We need to start shaking boobs and dicks so we can simultaneously rid this problem and workplace harassment.
 

Liljagare

Member
May 8, 2013
1,521
80
395
Sweden
Unsure on this.. :p

Though, we fought wars to become free from religious crap in society, now we're inviting it all back. GG!

What is it about Islam and cowardly euro politicians?
 

Hotspurr

Member
Jan 27, 2018
385
493
245
The problem with religious beliefs is that people base their lives on them. If you pull out those beliefs from under them, it could be choas, and that's why governments are too afraid to bring down the hammer. I don't like big government, but if you want to build a society with democratically agreed upon philosophy, you need a central organizing body.

And I think it's about time we told those people to deal with reality of secular society. If you can't handle baking certain cakes or shaking hands, stay in your churches or mosques or safe spaces. Building a secular and fair society that doesn't discriminate based on things that a person doesn't have control over just seems fair to me - in this case the value to a healthy Democratic society outweighs the individual fantasy and desire to live a life of delusion.
 

Alx

Member
Jan 22, 2007
18,048
332
1,105
Working with someone who can't follow some common social rules can be annoying, but it's no big deal either, unless it's a job where you would expect that person to follow those on a regular basis (could be one way or another for a translator, some of them work on computers or in translating booths, others have to meet all kinds of people).
I wouldn't have been surprised if it was rejected as a cause of job termination since it would be excessive. Now for a job interview it's a bit more surprising, since any small detail can weigh in in that situation, and the interviewer is allowed a part of subjectivity (that's why we do in-person interviews actually, it's not all about the skills and resume, you also need to know if you're dealing with someone you'd appreciate to work with). I'm pretty sure I failed an interview once because I almost forgot to shake the hand of one of the interviewers when leaving. In that case it's more a matter of faux pas than culture, but in the end the result is the same. That's the rule of the game.
 

mckmas8808

Member
May 24, 2005
40,241
3,179
1,320
She took them to court because they ended her interview due to her saying "I won't shake hands, but I'll do this gesture instead", so she had no chance of getting the job.

I don't see THAT as reasonable.

If the company banned handshakes and forced everyone to do "heart gestures", sure, I would say that's fucking ridiculous, but that isn't what happened. Her chances of getting a job were ended because she wouldn't shake hands with someone, even though she clearly tried to be respectful by offering up an alternative to a handshake.
It's hard for me to understand how people don't get the bolded part of your post.
 

Liljagare

Member
May 8, 2013
1,521
80
395
Sweden
It's hard for me to understand how people don't get the bolded part of your post.
She's an activist, wanting to provoke, and he sister allready tried something similar?

She was also represented in court by Jihad Omeirat, from Gävle mosque, who has alot of interesting names on their friend list. Alot of connections to extremism and terrorist recruiters. :} Most noticable Sara Duhani, formerly of the Muslim Multinational front, which turned out to be a front for Hizb ut-Tahrir , whom don't want Muslims to vote in the Swedish system, as it's kufr, they want to restore the khalifat(https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/samhalle/a/wEjmOG/islamisternas-uppmaning-till-muslimer-rosta-inte).

I for one do not like this soup at all.. :\
 

Monsterkillah

Member
Aug 12, 2018
1,093
988
275
She's an activist, wanting to provoke, and he sister allready tried something similar?

She was also represented in court by Jihad Omeirat, from Gävle mosque, who has alot of interesting names on their friend list. Alot of connections to extremism and terrorist recruiters. :} Most noticable Sara Duhani, formerly of the Muslim Multinational front, which turned out to be a front for Hizb ut-Tahrir , whom don't want Muslims to vote in the Swedish system, as it's kufr, they want to restore the khalifat(https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/samhalle/a/wEjmOG/islamisternas-uppmaning-till-muslimer-rosta-inte).

I for one do not like this soup at all.. :\
If so what's the purpose on keeping these people in the country?

It's obvious they don't intend to follow the rules and intend to turned the country into their own bidding instead

They never intend to integrate but rather conquer

Just deport them back to where they belong
 
Last edited:

mckmas8808

Member
May 24, 2005
40,241
3,179
1,320
She's an activist, wanting to provoke, and he sister allready tried something similar?

She was also represented in court by Jihad Omeirat, from Gävle mosque, who has alot of interesting names on their friend list. Alot of connections to extremism and terrorist recruiters. :} Most noticable Sara Duhani, formerly of the Muslim Multinational front, which turned out to be a front for Hizb ut-Tahrir , whom don't want Muslims to vote in the Swedish system, as it's kufr, they want to restore the khalifat(https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/samhalle/a/wEjmOG/islamisternas-uppmaning-till-muslimer-rosta-inte).

I for one do not like this soup at all.. :\
You know you've lost a debate when you have to reach for "they are linked to terrorist". Like we get it they are Muslims. In some people's eyes, every Muslim is 3 connection links away from knowing a terrorist.
 

YIKES

Member
Aug 17, 2018
75
39
150
Not a good look
General question to all the religious freedom dudes from the bakery thread:

Not baking a cake for people due to your religious beliefs is super a-ok, but refusing a handshake due to religious beliefs is the pinnacle of evil here?
You should be free to refuse doing business with either the baker or the employee.
 

AgentP

Member
Jun 5, 2011
6,959
913
550
Falling back on outside the norm religious beliefs should get you shunned in the modern world. This lady, Mike Pence, the cake maker - they all need to change and stop hiding behind bronze age nonsense. Religions are made by people and evolve all the time, they are highly malleable.

Christians and Jews don't stone each other or keep slaves anymore, so let's not pretend not making a cake is dictated by a belief systems, it's a smoke screen for bigotry. The same people didn't serve black customers in the 60s.
 
Last edited:

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
8,987
15,244
665
USA
dunpachi.com
Falling back on outside the norm religious beliefs should get you shunned in the modern world. This lady, Mike Pence, the cake maker - they all need to change and stop hiding behind bronze age nonsense. Religions are made by people and evolve all the time, they are highly malleable.

Christians and Jews don't stone each other or keep slaves anymore, so let's not pretend not making a cake is dictated by a belief systems, it's a smoke screen for bigotry. The same people didn't serve black customers in the 60s.
You clearly have an opinion on the matter, so I'll offer the other side:

Who determines "outside-the-norm religious beliefs"? Get back to me when you can come up with a fair solution that is superior to the USA's separation of Church and State (as well as the historical/political reasons for that divide). As long as religions (or any personal standpoint, really) don't break our laws, then why is it our business to interfere?

"Love is Love. Let me marry my horse. But don't you DARE be chaste and respect your wife by avoiding alone-time with other women".
 

TheShadowLord

Member
Jan 7, 2018
2,319
967
320
Imo, I think would be more bother if a muslim woman or man stops in the middle of what they are doing to pray if I was a manager. Wouldn't have a problem if they do it at their break, providing that it is not too long. Then say not wanting to shake hands. But that's just me.
 
Last edited:

Mahadev

Member
Mar 5, 2007
1,479
898
1,035
I don't have a strong opinion on the "religious freedom" debate but I wouldn't want to hire her either but not because she's Muslim but because she's a dogmatic moron. I'd do the same for a flat-earther, I don't think such a dumb person would make a great coworker. Needless to say people who let their dogmas heavily interfere with their lives don't make a good impression on me.
 

GermanZepp

Member
Feb 15, 2017
510
337
270
I dont know about all the details in the case. My take on this is "subjet" is, you are free to believe and practice religion as you please, BUT you suck up and deal with rest of the world. I'm vegetarian im no going thru my life suing restorants that dont have veggie food, and im not gonna work with the butcher. If your views of the world collides with the place you live in, you might adapt and respectfully continue.