My father just asked me what the downside was of Russia influencing US politics

[Mariolee]

At this point I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I got into an argument with my father last night after I felt vindication when he admitted that it does seem that Trump is best pals with Putin. I finally felt we could have some common ground.

But when I asked him about it further, he striked angrily back at me and said that even if Putin was influencing Trump, was that necessarily a bad thing? He then looked smugly at me like that was some sort of gotcha question.

I'm absolutely blown away.

We are Indonesians living in California if that makes any difference in how to interpret this situation.

 

[Zeyphersan]

My girlfriend had basically the same argument with her dad as well. It's kind of stunning the cognitive dissonance

I'm sorry Mariolee, I know it's really hard when it's a close family member that you're feeling disappointed in.

 

[Wilsongt]

Dads can be totes stupid, it seems. They fail to realize just how authoritarian Putin is.

 

[Apharmd]

Dude, this is why I'm so glad I spent my childhood in the US instead of in Indonesia. So much reading and history that encouraged me to question authority and shit.

I'm sorry, man. There's no convincing people like him who think they're "one of the good ones" or aren't even aware in general that they're getting played. Drinking all this kool-ai--I mean, vodka.

 

[yanipheonu]

Yes, it is a bad thing. All you need to say is "if you think Putin is acting in America's best interests, you're being naive."

OP's situation sounds like classic confirmation bias.

 

[PSqueak]

Just ask back, if they would allow any other country to influence politics. Bonus points for using China or a Muslim country.

 

[Platy]

Politicians making decisions without thinking about your demographic is always shitty. The more away from you the worst and it is hard to get more distant than Russian politicians

 

[Nibiru]

There are a lot of people that think Fidel Castro was a great man and that Communism is cool and hip.

 

[mjc]

I went out to dinner with some friends and they brought some newcomers along, one of which was this one girl. She casually mentioned that she didn't see the big problem with Ivanka sitting in on phone calls with foreign leaders.

What.

 

[Pagusas]

Did these people not grow up during the cold war? Like wtf?

 

[Mariolee]

My girlfriend had basically the same argument with her dad as well. It's kind of stunning the cognitive dissonance

I'm sorry Mariolee, I know it's really hard when it's a close family member that you're feeling disappointed in.

Thanks, it's just that I've known him to be such an intelligent man but over this past election all logic has gone out the window.

Dads can be totes stupid, it seems. They fail to realize just how authoritarian Putin is.

I don't think this is the case actually. From our conversation yesterday, he fully realizes how authoritarian Putin is, it's just that he doesn't think that the U.S. is any better so why not just let Russia take the reins.

 

[capitalCORN]

Asking him how he'd feel if a distant cousin tried to court his wife.

 

[Back-In-Black]

Why are immigrant parents to thick headed and so intent on pulling up the ladder just because they had to climb it a little bit harder? Speaking as a dude with immigrant parents that voted for Trump.

 

[Apharmd]

Mariolee, ask your dad what the point was of August 17th, 1945. For real, ask him that question and then ask him why people die so things can be signed that day.

 

[Mariolee]

Dude, this is why I'm so glad I spent my childhood in the US instead of in Indonesia. So much reading and history that encouraged me to question authority and shit.

I'm sorry, man. There's no convincing people like him who think they're "one of the good ones" or aren't even aware in general that they're getting played. Drinking all this kool-ai--I mean, vodka.

What's even more weird is that he knows firsthand the corruption of the Indonesian government and the effects it has had on those he knows around him, it's just that he thinks Clinton was far more likely to bring corruption than Trump. Then this shit goes along and he doesn't see what the big deal is.

My mind is boggled right now.

 

[Vena]

At this point I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I got into an argument with my father last night after I felt vindication when he admitted that it does seem that Trump is best pals with Putin. I finally felt we could have some common ground.

But when I asked him about it further, he striked angrily back at me and said that even if Putin was influencing Trump, was that necessarily a bad thing? He then looked smugly at me like that was some sort of gotcha question.

Ask him if he'd be okay with ISIS influencing the election, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or China, or just pick any other country, really.

If he says "Of course!" ask why and draw the parallels that exist and yank out his prejudices right in front of him.

Rationalization and attempts to excuse something can only go so far if you tear apart a person's ability to deflect while also saving face because that's what a lot of this is as these are attempts to rationalize your vote/beliefs against reality because it ultimately can come back and make you ask: "What the fuck did I just do?" and most people aren't comfortable when faced with the responsibility of their own actions.

 

[Wilsongt]

Thanks, it's just that I've known him to be such an intelligent man but over this past election all logic has gone out the window.



I don't think this is the case actually. From our conversation yesterday, he fully realizes how authoritarian Putin is, it's just that he doesn't think that the U.S. is any better so why not just let Russia take the reins.

Did you explain that the US fought a bloody revolution several hundred years ago to not be in a situation where another country was in charge?

 

[Apathy]

The fact that a foreign country is influencing your countries democracy. That should be enough for any "patriot" to be looking for the truth in this and dislike it.

 

[Mariolee]

Mariolee, ask your dad what the point was of August 17th, 1945. For real, ask him that question and then ask him why people die so things can be signed that day.

Oh he knows. Like I said above,

He also doesn't realistically think Russia would actually make that much of a difference to the U.S. if these statements of Putin's influence on Trump are true, and that it wasn't necessarily bad to put Russian self interests over American ones.

He then asked me what proof there was that being Russia wouldn't be a beneficial partnership for both countries. In addition, he stated that right now based on the political climate we are nearing war with Russia, and we would rather be friends with them than at war. He then cited the Cold War.

 

[TheOMan]

Sorry you're going through that Mariolee.

Unfortunately, some people just won't care until it negatively affects them in very real ways. And even then, some still won't care.

Oh he knows. Like I said above,

He also doesn't realistically think Russia would actually make that much of a difference to the U.S. if these statements of Putin's influence on Trump are true, and that it wasn't necessarily bad to put Russian self interests over American ones.

He then asked me what proof there was that being Russia wouldn't be a beneficial partnership for both countries. In addition, he stated that right now based on the political climate we are nearing war with Russia, and we would rather be friends with them than at war. He then cited the Cold War.

Yup - as I thought. You might want to avoid talking about this with him until/if he comes around.

 

[Platy]

Worst case scenario say that Trump won the election, not Putin =P

 

[Josh7289]

Dads can be totes stupid, it seems. They fail to realize just how authoritarian Putin is.

No they don't. They like it.

 

[capitalCORN]

Oh he knows. Like I said above,

He also doesn't realistically think Russia would actually make that much of a difference to the U.S. if these statements of Putin's influence on Trump are true, and that it wasn't necessarily bad to put Russian self interests over American ones.

He then asked me what proof there was that being Russia wouldn't be a beneficial partnership for both countries. In addition, he stated that right now based on the political climate we are nearing war with Russia, and we would rather be friends with them than at war. He then cited the Cold War.

Ask him how he feels about China then.

 

[Jeffrey]

I mean, if you don't follow politics or the news, it's not the easiest stuff to explain off the top of your head.


Shit is complicated, and trying to simplify it would do more harm imo.

Are there good resources for this stuff though? Like books or articles. I feel like this is a problem that has a solution somewhere.

 

[Mariolee]

Ask him if he'd be okay with ISIS influencing the election, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or China, or just pick any other country, really.

If he says "Of course!" ask why and draw the parallels that exist and yank out his prejudices right in front of him.

Rationalization and attempts to excuse something can only go so far if you tear apart a person's ability to deflect while also saving face because that's what a lot of this is as these are attempts to rationalize your vote/beliefs against reality because it ultimately can come back and make you ask: "What the fuck did I just do?" and most people aren't comfortable when faced with the responsibility of their own actions.

Did you explain that the US fought a bloody revolution several hundred years ago to not be in a situation where another country was in charge?

The fact that a foreign country is influencing your countries democracy. That should be enough for any "patriot" to be looking for the truth in this and dislike it.

The thing is that he doesn't listen to these more broad rationalizations, he wants specific details about what we think Russia would do if they are indeed influencing Trump and his cabinet.

 

[Amory]

There are many who think it wouldn't be such a bad thing if the US and Russia got along better than they currently do, and Trump seems open to that.

As far as Russia having influence on the actual election results, that's very disturbing. Not sure how anyone could say otherwise.

 

[capitalCORN]

The thing is that he doesn't listen to these more broad rationalizations, he wants specific details about what we think Russia would do if they are indeed influencing Trump and his cabinet.

How about they're moving the needle closer to an absolute monarchy, which happens to be the right's endgame.

 

[Mariolee]

Ask him how he feels about China then.

Hates em. Thinks Trump is right by ignoring the One China policy and that we've been bullied by China long enough. He thinks that if Trump puts a tax on Chinese imports we'll finally be more competitive in multiple markets and China will have no one to sell it too (except you know, the rest of the world) and thus they will listen more to the U.S.

Like what.

 

[Vena]

The thing is that he doesn't listen to these more broad rationalizations, he wants specific details about what we think Russia would do if they are indeed influencing Trump and his cabinet.

Why not then use a historical example of the Manchurian Candidate and what they did? Because this is pretty much that.

Or does he want Russia-specific cases? Then ask him what he thinks of people in Ukraine who are losing their country to the Russians and their "meddling". See if draws an arbitrary line in the sand of "but that won't happen to America" and then ask him why not.

 

[Zeyphersan]

No they don't. They like it.

This seems at least anecdotally true, within my circle. The aging fathers get more and more dictatorial with each election cycle. I'm really happy my own dad is going the opposite way and is somehow becoming more and more liberal as time goes on. Maybe my mom is having a positive effect on him

 

[LegalEagleMike]

is this your father?

 

[BrutishMrFish]

No they don't. They like it.

I imagine the homophobia is a plus, too.

 

[Mariolee]

Downside of Russian interference?

Show your dad pictures of Fallout4...I mean, Syria.

He says Russia has nothing to do with Syria. It's all the U.S.'s fault.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Oh he knows. Like I said above,

He also doesn't realistically think Russia would actually make that much of a difference to the U.S. if these statements of Putin's influence on Trump are true, and that it wasn't necessarily bad to put Russian self interests over American ones.

He then asked me what proof there was that being Russia wouldn't be a beneficial partnership for both countries. In addition, he stated that right now based on the political climate we are nearing war with Russia, and we would rather be friends with them than at war. He then cited the Cold War.

Sounds similar to someone I've spoken to a few times. He's from Singapore so I'm not sure if its a slightly SEA thing, but basically it seems to be some kind of... either lack of issues with authoritarianism, or tolerance of it in the name of 'peace' or 'stability'. Authoritarian violating civil rights? Well, its tough on crime! Letting Russia have what they want? Better than nuclear war! Oh, think they'll abuse such a relationship? Just become allies!

Path of least resistance is chief to such people, it seems.

 

[capitalCORN]

Hates em. Thinks Trump is right by ignoring the One China policy and that we've been bullied by China long enough. He thinks that if Trump puts a tax on Chinese imports we'll finally be more competitive in multiple markets and China will have no one to sell it too (except you know, the rest of the world) and thus they will listen more to the U.S.

Like what.

Well, let him know the Krem and the One Party are close ass buds, moreso that Trump and Putin. And Trump's presidency means losing global influence to appease megacorps and special interests to their fullest extent. After all, all they're interested is stripmining money.

 

[Vena]

He says Russia has nothing to do with Syria. It's all the U.S.'s fault.

Just reference Ukraine, then. Can't deflect that blame.

 

[USC-fan]

Really it doesn't matter in americaso he has a good point. Now eastern Euporais likely fucked but it means nothing to average americans.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Ha, I just had this exact conversation with ~20 year old friend of mine.

Democracy is wasted on them.

 

[B.O.O.M]

He doesn't actually believe that I think. He probably just don't want to lose a debate/argument to his son

 

[Kurdel]

Both get the same people wet in the same ways.

Just wait until we get the Trump propaganda pictures of him wrestling a bald eagle or having a hand size contest with 4th graders.

 

[LegendofJoe]

The large majority of people in this country have no clue how important NATO is to global peace and stability. Trump's cozy relationship with Russia puts the very existence of that institution at risk.

Does anyone honestly think Trump will honor our pledge to NATO if Putin invades Lithuania? And when that happens NATO is finished, along with 70 years of peace and stability in Europe. A new arms race will begin with the rest of the Baltics preparing for imminent invasion (sadly, this is already happening). Poland will push to get nuclear weapons and suddenly we're right back in a new Cold War.

And none of this is fantasy, this is exactly what Putin wants to happen.

 

[Mariolee]

Well, let him know the Krem and the One Party are close ass buds, moreso that Trump and Putin. And Trump's presidency means losing global influence to appease megacorps and special interests to their fullest extent. After all, all they're interested is stripmining money.

He thinks that by challenging China by taxing their exports to the U.S. corporations that have their bases and manufacturers there will pull out and come back to the U.S. thus improving the economy.

Sounds similar to someone I've spoken to a few times. He's from Singapore so I'm not sure if its a slightly SEA thing, but basically it seems to be some kind of... either lack of issues with authoritarianism, or tolerance of it in the name of 'peace' or 'stability'. Authoritarian violating civil rights? Well, its tough on crime! Letting Russia have what they want? Better than nuclear war! Oh, think they'll abuse such a relationship? Just become allies!

Path of least resistance is chief to such people, it seems.

This is exactly it. Despite him consistently saying that he's lived under what were essentially dictatorships and corruption, he at the same time approves of what Duterte and Indonesia are brutally doing to those in the drug trade. Serves em right.

He doesn't actually believe that I think. He probably just don't want to lose a debate/argument to his son

This is absolutely part of it. Which is why I'm hoping that by at least talking about these things and challenging his ideas that even if he on the outside doubles down, he'll start to ruminate on the ideas I've presented and come around to them.

 

[Apharmd]

Oh he knows. Like I said above,

He also doesn't realistically think Russia would actually make that much of a difference to the U.S. if these statements of Putin's influence on Trump are true, and that it wasn't necessarily bad to put Russian self interests over American ones.

He then asked me what proof there was that being Russia wouldn't be a beneficial partnership for both countries. In addition, he stated that right now based on the political climate we are nearing war with Russia, and we would rather be friends with them than at war. He then cited the Cold War.

I don't know how so many of our elders are okay with this, man.

 

[Metalingus5150]

One of my friend's did something similar, except he said that Russia has never done anything wrong and it's just US propaganda on why people see Russia as bad. What perplexes me is that he is gay and you know how Russia is with the LGBT.

 

[Chococat]

There are a lot of people that think Fidel Castro was a great man and that Communism is cool and hip.

Yah, because the the USA backed Batista who killed 20,000 civilians to retain power was such a great thing for the Cubans. Everyone loves it when USA and mob own over 50% companies and production that benefits the USA but leave people of Cuba poor and destitute.

Castro wasn't great, but pretending American Capitalism that exploited Cuban for every bit of money, land, and work is better than Communism is laughable. Both are terrible.

 

[dskillzhtown]

It's just like a wife/husband not wanting be believe their partner is cheating regardless of all the evidence that is stacked in front of them. Lipstick on collars, clothes smell like perfume, working late nights, cell going straight to voicemail. People who supported Trump in the election are going to come up with every excuse in the book and then say, "Well, it isn't that bad, right?". People don't ever want to admit someone they publicly put their faith in is no good.

In the end, they always come around. Usually too late though.

 

[metalslimer]

It's amazing because there are people on the left as well who have the same viewpoint.

 

[capitalCORN]

He thinks that by challenging China by taxing their exports to the U.S. corporations that have their bases and manufacturers there will pull out and come back to the U.S. thus improving the economy.

Tell him if it's not China, they're hauling ass to India, or if not, any number or South East Asian nations. There is not road back. The wage gap will persist for a LONG TIME. The only thing you can hope for is an economy that nurtures the middle.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

We are Indonesians living in California if that makes any difference in how to interpret this situation.

Was your Dad born/raised here?

I imagine even today the fear of russians is instilled into children.

 

[Shig]

Did you give him some reasons, or did you just kind of sit in stunned silence or say "wow, really?" and try to move past the subject?

Because the latter is becoming a big recurring problem with liberals getting their viewpoints to land. Ending the conversation in disbelief doesn't really read as a repudiation to the other side, it reads as you not really having anything to fire back. He asks for reasons, give him reasons.

Probably the most reliable bridge is to ask your dad whether he values free speech. Then point out to him that Russia's newsmedia is largely state-controlled propaganda and that Putin has made some of his critics mysteriously disappear. Follow that up by pointing out they've been encroaching into the borders of neighboring sovereign nations. There's not a lot of wiggle room there, this is clearly bad stuff, condemning Russia shouldn't be some contentious partisan viewpoint.