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My speculation: Playstation Vita = PowerVR 6, Playstation 4 = Project Denver, more

Speculation: Sony’s next generation of gaming hardware will be centered around three key elements.

1. Playstation 4 – A dedicated all-in-one home entertainment system powered by Project Denver.

2. Playstation Vita – A dedicated gaming handheld powered by what is basically a clone of the same A6 SOC powering the next iPad and iPhone.

3. Xperia Play 2 – An all-in-one portable cellphone identically speced to the Playstation Vita, capable of playing all Vita games, but built on a 22nm process and packed into a more portable and more efficient package.

What is Project Denver?

Project Denver is NVIDIA’s combined cpu/gpu architecture due out in 2013. It embeds the powerful cortex a15 cpu from ARM with the Maxwell gpu architecture from Nvidia onto one unified chip. It’s one of the biggest undertakings that Nvidia has ever done.

While this will be shopped around as an independent GPU, due to the a15 integration, the GPU will be more than capable of running a full featured OS, calculating physics, AI and all general functions that a gaming console would need to be able to perform.

Here is additional information about the capabilities of the cortex a15 cpu being embedded into Maxwell…
http://arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-u...r-to-dramatically-accelerate-capabilities.php

Here is additional information about the Maxwell GPU…
http://techreport.com/discussions.x/19675

nvidia-yol-haritas%C4%B1-maxwell-kepler.jpg


In theory, Project Denver cores inside the Maxwell GPU die should enjoy access to 2+TB/s of internal bandwidth and potentially beyond currently possible 320GB/s of external memory bandwidth (using 512-bit interface and high-speed GDDR5 memory). If nVidia delivers this architecture as planned, we might see quite a change in the market - given that neither CPUs from AMD or Intel don't have as high system bandwidth as contemporary graphics cards."

With such extremely fast memory bandwidth between the ARM CPU and the Maxwell GPU (both on the same die), real-time ray tracing of dynamic scenes will benefit greatly because building and rebuilding/refitting of acceleration structures (such as BVHs) is still best handled by the CPU (although there are parallel implementations already, see the HLBVH paper by Pantaleoni and Luebke or the real-time kd-tree construction paper by Rui Wang et al.)

David Luebke (Nvidia graphics researcher and GPU ray tracing expert) said in a chat session preceding the GTC 2010 conference in September:

"I think Jacopo Pantaleoni's "HLBVH" paper at High Performance Graphics this year will be looked back on as a watershed for ray tracing of dynamic content. He can sort 1M utterly dynamic triangles into a quality acceleration structure at real-time rates, and we think there's more headroom for improvement. So to answer your question, with techniques like these and continued advances in GPU ray traversal, I would expect heavy ray tracing of dynamic content to be possible in a generation or two."

This would imply that the Maxwell generation of GPUs would be able to raytrace highly dynamic scenes and that path tracing of dynamic scenes could be feasible as well. A pretty exciting thought and much sooner than expected.
http://raytracey.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-details-about-project-denver.html

Gaming hardware this powerful could easily sustain Sony another decade.

How much would it cost?

Fermi retailed for $299 at launch. The retailer price always include a significant wholesaler markup, a large retailer markup, marketing cost and shipping and packaging costs, which combined usually account for about half the final retail price of any product. For a major partner buying (or licensing) the chips in bulk direct from the factory, the cost will be significantly lower, as low as $150 per chip.

Not having to go out and purchase a seperate CPU shaves a huge amoung of the cost from the PS4. A $399 pricetag for the PS4 wouldn’t be out of the question if the console is packing nothing more than this chip to act as both the cpu and gpu, as well as a blu ray drive and a few inexpensives things like Wifi and Bluetooth. And by licensing a third party developed gpu and having the third party swallow all the R&D cost, they can do the same thing they did with the Vita, release an enormously powerful device at not an absurd price point while still not taking a significant loss on each console sold.

When will it come out?

This chip is due out in 2013. If I were Sony of Microsoft, I would target a fall 2014 release date for the next console just in case of unanticipated delays, to give devs more time with final dev kits, and to reduce costs by waiting till the production is full steam ahead and all the kinks are worked out before jumping in.

The timeline for Project Denver makes sense for Sony. Sony’s first party development is still very active on the PS3, they are showing regular year on year growth, and they can still lower the price of the PS3 to boost sales. I don’t think they will be ready to move on to the Playstation 4 until 2014 at the earliest, until the 22nm die size is available and can allow them to make a significant leap forward technologically at minimal cost. Games like Killzone and Uncharted look fantastic already. They also have the Vita to focus on making successful, and the longer they wait, the closer they get to bringing their investment with the PS3 back into black.

2013 also ties in with a dramatic die shrink to 22nm, that is expected to happen in that year, for ARM, Nvidia, AMD and PowerVR. As an aside, such a dramatic die shrink for ARM and PowerVR could easily coincide with a whole host of other devices, from a iPhone Mini, to a Playstation Vita redesign and an Xperia Play 2 smartphone packing the same internals as the Vita. So 2013 should a very interesting year to keep an eye out for releases in general. Letting the dust settle on the impact of this die shrink and releasing this device at the end of 2013, or early 2014 would be a wiser move than rushing something to market in 2012 built on a dated 32 nanometer process.

Why would Nvidia license out their newest architecture to a game console?

Money for one thing. Subsiding their investment for another. But most importantly, it would be a sure fire way to ensure that developers go out and code engines specifically to take advantage of this architecture and the enormous bandwidths it offers. On the PC, where they have to code games to support a dozen different architectures, the engines usually ignore unique features such as this. But on the console, this isn’t the case, the best developers code down to the metal and build engines that specifically utilize the architecture’s strengths. Those same engines could then be ported over to the PC to produce stunning looking games that will ensure this architecture succeeds.

Why would Sony opt for Project Denver?

Sony has a long tradition of pushing technology to its limits, and in turn leveraging the PlayStation brand to help its’ own technologically superior formats succeed. This is why the PlayStation brand consistently draws in the tech enthusiasts, the early adopters, and gets retailers like Best Buy to bundle their consoles with their newest televisions. If Sony had the PlayStation brand to leverage back when they were launching the BetaMax, that format war would have gone in a different direction as well.

People take away the wrong lesson from the PS2 and PS3. The mistakes Sony made with both systems was to invest in developing a brand new processor largely on their own (the Emotion Engine in the PS2 and the Cell in the PS3) rather than simply seek out ATI or NVIDIA well ahead of time and work with them to deliver the best possible processor they can. Both the EE and the Cell were ridiculously expensive to develop, a nightmare to program for, and I think the PS2 and PS3 would have been just as successful without them. Without the Cell, the PS3 could have probably launched with a price tag of around $499 for the premium model and come roaring out of the gate.

Blu Ray by itself was a net gain for Sony. HDMI was a net gain for Sony. The only investment that didn’t pay off for them was the Cell. Yet the PS3 despite all the criticism, the obscene launch price, and giving the 360 a full year head start, is still neck and neck with the 360 in terms of sales and is beloved by most gamers. There is no need to throw out Sony’s process. All Sony needs to do is contain the costs to launch their console under a price tag of $499 for the premium model and $399 for the barebones model.

Project Denver would also be powerful enough to decode HVDs at 4k resolution aka film resolution video. It makes far too much sense for movie studios to use these HVDs to distribute their films to movie theater than the current massive expensive spindles they use now. The more movie theaters that use these discs, the more the costs fall and the more viable it becomes for consumers. Initially, people with projectors in their basements will want it. Soon after, people with 4k resolution tvs (which will be fairly common since that is the easiest way to do glassless 3D at 1080p) will also want it.

They could easily pair the PS4 with a DualMove + Eye HD – A Dual Shock that splits in half into two Move controllers with a target release date in 2014, $399 for the basic sku, $499 for the premium model, all without losing a penny on each console sold.

What is the A6?

The A6 is Apple’s up and coming SOC that will be powering the Retina Display iPad 3 and either the 2011 or the 2012 iPhone. Rumors are that the A6 combines a quadcore A9 cpu with a PowerVR Series 6 gpu and that Apple’s partners just began production of four million A6 SOCs due out by Christmas of 2011. This A6 is rumored to be powering the upcoming retina display iPad with a ridiculously high resolution of over 2000x1500 in a 10” display, and the launch window being targeted is Christmas of 2011.

The latest news from Sony is that the Playstation Vita has been delayed until early 2012 and Sony has been coy about nailing down the precise final hardware specs of the Vita. They haven’t even been answering questions about how much RAM the system has, much less things like clockspeeds. Given the time frame and the sheer number of game developers programming for the Apple iPad and iPhone, it makes quite a bit of intuitive sense to use that same configuration in the Playstation Vita. A quad core A9 cpu is already confirmed, opting to use the PowerVR Series 6 gpu is all it would take to match the iPad 3 and the 2012 iPhone.

In one easy step, Sony ensures that porting any app or piece of software available on the iPad or iPhone over to the Playstation Vita becomes a breeze, and Sony in turn get to claim that their device is the only one capable of playing stand out iOS games like Real Racing 3 or Spider 2: Legend of Bryce Mansion with physical buttons and triggers.

PowerVR announced that it had six licensees for their Series 6 GPU back in Feb of 2011, with hints all but confirming that both Apple and Sony were among those six.

What is the PowerVR Series 6 gpu?

PowerVR makes mobile gpus. Their Series 2 gpus powered the Dreamcast. Their Series 5 gpus came out in 2005 and have powered every single iPad and most of the iPhones ever made as well as the Intel GMA integrated graphics cards in Intel’s cpus. And their Series 6 gpus were unveiled on Feb of 2011 and are slated to be 20-100 times more powerful than their Series 5 offerings while consuming the same amount of power as the Series 5.

There was a six year gap between the Series 5 and Series 6 gpu lines. If the Vita comes out with the Series 5 right around the same time the next generation of apple devices show up with the Series 6 gpu line, Sony will look dated. iPad and iPhone gaming will quickly leapfrog past what the Vita is capable of and hinder any early momentum the device garners. However, if the Vita matches the A6’s configuration, it will be packing the same series of GPUs as it atleast the next 5 generations of iOS devices.

The Series 6 deliver in excess of 210 GFLOPS and 350 million “real” polygons and a visible fill rate of 5 Gigapixels, although ST-Ericsson claims that thanks to the deferred rendering that’s part of the PowerVR technology the actual fill rate should be closer to 13 Gigapixels. This is comfortably beyond the performance of both the Xbox 360 and the PS3's gpu.

Discounting the PC, if Sony does this, the NGP could wind up with what is easily the best looking version of all multiplatform releases this generation, and could even wind up with early next generation multiplatform games, without too much downgrading. Opting to do this, combined with the closed nature of the NGP, would make the Vita seem relevant many iOS generations from now. Sony will not have to fear iPad games looking on par with or superior to NGP games, for many many years.

The rogue (series 6) is reported to be roughly 20 times more powerful than the Mali, and up to thirteen times more powerful than each SGX543 core, running at the same clockspeed and with a similar power draw.

It seems like Sony announced the NGP with the most capable configuration available at the time. Even if they were aware of the six series and were already testing to see if they can implement it into the NGP cheaply, since the chip wasn't announced yet and anyone aware of it likely had to sign an NDA, they couldn't talk about it. And they well couldn't delay the NGPs announcement and let the 3DS get all the hype and press attention.

If Apple is already fooling around with Retina Display iPad prototypes powered by the A6, it doesn't seem all that unlikely that Sony is already testing the series 6 gpu in the NGP prototypes and if they determine that they can upgrade to it and it's worthwhile to do so, they will do just that. These days, a few months is a whole new generation as far as mobile devices goes. However, Power VR Series 6 will be around for atleast half a decade.

It's in Sony's best interests if the NGP's graphics don't feel dated even many years from now. It's in Sony's best interests to release a handheld that continue to feel relevent, continues to get multiplatform releases, and continues to sell well for as long as possible.

Assuming that it's cost effective for sony to use series 6, long term, this would make them a lot more money. If the NGP continues getting multiplatform releases in 2020, there is no reason for Sony to be unhappy about that. They could ensure that the NGP doesn't even begin to feel dated as a handheld, until 2020 or so, and continues to have very strong sales even a decade from now.

As is, it's basically confirmed that the NGP won't be shipping until next year anyways. Would it really make much difference whether the device shows up in January, or in March? If Apple is able to get this gpu.

The new series is almost exactly the same foot print as the previous series, in terms of power usage, heat generated and also in terms of size. It’s also been confirmed that the gpu will fully support all software designed to run on the previous generation's gpu as well.

Last minute changes are not without precedent for Sony. The PS3 underwent various tweaks in the number of ethernet ports it contains, the number of HDMI inputs it has, and the number of USB ports it has, well after it was shown off publically, and fairly close to release. Likewise the RSX was added to the PS3 fairly close to it's release, and the very earliest dev kits didn't even feature a standalone gpu. The series 6 will also take up a very similar footprint compared to the series 5 gpu, so Sony really wouldn't have to alter the exterior design at all. They could simply build the rest of the NGP as is, and simply opt to use the newer chipset inside.

Even though Sony is currently using the cutting edge PowerVR 5 series gpu in all the dev kits. Any game designed to run on the series 5 gpu will most likely run just fine on the series 6 gpu. So none of the work that game developers sank into making launch NGP games would be wasted.

How much would it cost?

PowerVR and ARM have always been excellent about pricing. They never once charged more than a few dollars to license any of their designs.

The iPhone 4/iPad 1's A4 (cpu + gpu) cost Apple a grand total of $10.75 according to iSuppli. This is both the licensing cost + the manufacturing costs.
http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/Ne...Materials-of-187-51-According-to-iSuppli.aspx

The iPad 2's A5 (updated dual core cpu + updated dual core gpu) cost Apple $14 according to iSuppli. Once again, this including both the licensing costs and the manufacturing costs.
http://muchipad.com/node/90

What it comes down to is a difference of a few dollars, per Vita. And while this can be substantial when the Vita is produced in large numbers, ensuring that the Vita won’t be leapfrogged by portable devices for atleast half a decade, ensuring that the Vita can actually house the very best looking versions of current gen console games with no sacrifices, and ensuring that all future iOS software can readily be ported over to the Vita, would be well worth that investment.

What about the Xperia Play?

The original Xperia Play has basically being pushed out to die. Sony expended barely any effort into developing exclusive gaming content for it, barely gave it any marketing support, and all things considered, it’s remarkable that the device generated as much buzz as it did.

There is indeed a rich untapped market of people that want a fully featured, completely capable smartphone, that is also able to run the latest games and allow you to control them competently.

There is very clear and obvious path forward that would allow Sony to tap into this market.

Once the 22-28nm die shrink is available next year, package the internals of the Playstation Vita into the same form factor as the Playstation Go/Xperia Play. Market it as the Xperia Play 2 and have it be capable of playing every single Playstation Vita game released, as well as receive easy ports of every single iPhone/iPad game released. Make sure the phone OS is also competently designed and fully functional and just sit back and watch the device explode in the marketplace.

There isn’t a gamer alive that wouldn’t at least consider a fully featured cutting edge smartphone that can play games of the caliber of Playstation Vita titles, using the same identical control inputs as are available on the Vita including dual analog nubs. The upcoming dieshrink to 28nm would allow the Vita Phone/PSP2 Go to retain the current size while packing in more features and a larger battery. Sony could easily target a release date of 2012/2013 at a price of $99 with a two year contract, $399 without a contract.
 
http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/10/powervr-series6-g6200-and-6400/

Announced during CES, Imagination Technologies unveiled the first cores of its upcoming PowerVR 6-series mobile GPU line-up, the PowerVR G6200 and the G6400, stating that the respective two and four compute cluster IPs were ready for immediate licensing.

Delivering the best performance in both GFLOPS/mm2 and GFLOPS/mW, PowerVR Series6 GPUs can deliver 20x or more of the performance of current generation GPU cores targeting comparable markets. This is enabled by an architecture that is around 5x more efficient than previous generations.

PowerVR Series6 GPU cores are designed to offer computing performance exceeding 100GFLOPS (gigaFLOPS) and reaching the TFLOPS (teraFLOPS) range enabling high-level graphics performance from mobile through to high-end compute and graphics solutions.

The PowerVR Series6 family will deliver a significant portfolio of new technologies and features, including: an advanced scalable compute cluster architecture; high efficiency compression technology including lossless image and parameter compression and the widely respected PVRTC™ texture compression; an enhanced scheduling architecture; dedicated housekeeping processors; and a next generation Tile Based Deferred Rendering architecture. These features combine to produce a highly latency tolerant architecture that consumes the lowest memory bandwidth in the industry while delivering the best performance per mm2 and per mW.

Says Hossein Yassaie, CEO, Imagination: "Based on our experience in shipping hundreds of millions of GPU cores, plus extensive market and customer feedback, we have been able to set a new standard in GPU architecture, particularly in the areas of power, bandwidth and efficiency – the key metrics by which GPUs are now judged. We are confident that with the Rogue architecture we have a very clear technology advantage and an exceptional roadmap for the PowerVR Series6 family which our partners can depend on."

Imagination believes that next generation devices, utilizing the extraordinary GPU performance that PowerVR Series6 delivers at optimal power levels, will change the landscape of software development as application developers start to realize the enormous parallel processing power available to them via Series6 GPU cores for both graphics and more generalized GPU Compute-based high performance computing tasks.

All members of the Series6 family support all features of the latest graphics APIs including OpenGL ES 'Halti'*, OpenGL 3.x/4.x, OpenCL 1.x and DirectX10 with certain family members extending their capabilities to full WHQL-compliant DirectX11.1 functionality.

As is, the Vita is being sent out to die this Feb because it doesn't provide enough of an improvement/differntiation over the 3DS.

If the Vita featured this with build in support for DX11.1 and came out Fall 2012, they could easily downport PC games and even next gen consoles games directly to the Vita.

Oh well, the Vita is still pretty damn good in it's own right, just not all it could have been. But there's still the PS4 to push boundries...


Update 2 : A best shot at the relevant bits, a summary:

Bits probably relevant to PS4

- 'the company is working on a system-on-chip (SoC) to underpin the product for "seven to 10 years".'
- 'He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."' (Alternative quote in another article: ' “We are looking at an architecture where the bulk of processing will still sit on the main board, with CPU and graphics added to by more digital signal processing and some configurable logic.”)
- 'Tsuruta-san picked out emerging ‘through silicon via’ designs. These stack chips with interconnects running vertically through them to reduce length, raise performance and reduce power consumption.'
- 'Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.'
- Tsuruta: "We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”
- Tsuruta: "We understand that for this, we will need to offer a very strong SDK. We will retain our own OS for the main games and support that with a development environment that is viable. For online and other features, we are also thinking of a simpler approach to a Linux-type environment than on the PlayStation 3,"
- Seems to be a consciousness to try and accommodate potential future peripherals with high bandwidth needs
- '[Vita] features a nine-axis accelerometer (3 accelerometers, 3 gyroscopes and 3 magnetometers), but we could soon see a tenth added to sense pressure and increase environmental feedback still further.'

Bits probably relevant to post-PS4 (peripherals, PS5+ etc.)


- 'For the future of AR, Tsuruta’s presentation imagined a 3D version using lightweight glasses to create a hybrid gaming environment '
- 'the company wants to up the ante in haptics technology...this vision is one that incorporates sufficient touch sensitivity to, say, reproduce the full tactile sensation of stroking a cat'
- 'controllers that incorporate more motion-sensing accelerometers, and even vital signs sensors. There’s even been talk of systems that read players’ eye movements.'
- 'Sony’s target is to get latency for a typical playing experience to below 50ms for framerates of more than 300fps.'
- 'Moreover, the target is not for 1080p resolution, but reflect a drive towards 8kx4k.'

Unless otherwise explicitly noted, the above quotes are from the article. Direct quotes from Tsuruta are hopefully obvious to pick out.

Update: More relevant comments from him in this post.

I posted a much shorter article about this a while ago that went down like a lead balloon, but with all this talk lately of PS4, and with a couple of far more detailed articles appearing on this in the last week, I think it's worth posting about again :)

The first article is just a summary one of a presentation given by SCE's Chief Tech Officer in December, the second taken from an interview with him.

WARNING: The stuff talked about here is rather explicitly not necessarily a feature list for PS4. He notes that some of this stuff is at least 5 years away from fruition. It's just his current take on where things may be heading longer term. Some of the more out there stuff could be relevant within PS4's lifetime in a peripheral sense, though...

Article: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/dec/sony-gaming.cfm

Interview: http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfm

640_masaaki-tsuruta-colour-640.jpg


(Note: it's believed the next Power architecture will be a stacked design. This is also the architecture that has been speculated could incorporate aspects of Cell's design, or a next-gen SPU...). It's due in 2013.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking about as soon as they showed that prototype at CES a couple of years ago.

Article: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/dec/sony-gaming.cfm

Interview: http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfm

I feel like the spirit of Kutaragi is alive and well at SCE :p :D

And this could be the closest you'll get to Sony talking about 'PS4' for a while...

Awesome news! I love you Sony. Don't ever change.
 
Zzoram said:
I think the Xperia Play and Vita are doomed.

The Vita is going to be competing with the iPod Touch/iPhone 5th Gen and roughly equivalent in power and price (on contract for phone). However, unlike the iPod Touch/iPhone, Vita hardware will stay still for 6 years while every year the iPod Touch/iPhone will get more and more powerful than Vita every year, with cheaper games better suited for mobile playing.

The iPhone in particular, since it does almost everything someone could want in a single portable device, is going to obsolete handheld gaming consoles. I know there will be a few hardcore people who cling to the physical controls, but look how that worked out for the keyboard vs touchscreen battle in smartphones. People will prefer the slate pure touch/gyro devices.

That second paragraph is my point. If Sony opts to go with a Series 5 gpu right as everyone else is switching over to Series 6 gpus, which are a good 10-20x more capable, they are screwing themselves over.

Series 5 lasted for a full 5+ years. Series 6 likely will be around for that long as well. If Sony makes the leap over to the newest gpu series, even as future phones use a more advanced Series 6 gpu, it wouldn't be as massive a difference between the two that it makes the Vita seem dated. Both gpus would be in the same family and would share the same core architecture. But opting to go with Series 5 right as Apple is about to release Series 6 based devices is a mistake.

But I think you are misguided in thinking the idea of the Xperia Play is doomed to fail, or that actual physical controls are irrelevant. Only a few genres of games work well with just touch and gyro controls. The vast majority of games require competent controls in order to be fun to play.

The Xperia Play's core idea, a fully functional, portable, competent smartphone that is also a full featured gaming machine with good games, and solid controls, is an idea primed to succeed. The problem was the execution. The Xperia Play opted to go with a useless touchpad instead of analog nubs akin to the 3DS. And it's gpu was underspecced so that it had no actual competent games.

Fix both errors, basically release an Xperia Play 2 that packs the same internals as the Vita, and supports most or all Vita games, and use actual analog nubs this time, and make sure the phone part of it is also very competent, and it will be a huge success in the marketplace. The success of the iOS devices as gaming devices solidifies that people do want an all-in-one device that they can play games on, even if they are limited to just a few genres of games. Such an all-in-one device that can be used to competently play a number of different genres of games not possible with touch controls alone, would succeed.

Zzoram said:
I think the issue is fundamentally different. Traditional hardcore games just aren't suited to be played in 15 minute chunks on a bus, and those are the only games that need physical controls.

Street Fighter, Mario Kart, Pilotwings, a quick Super Mario level, Smash Bros, a quick match of CoD, and a number of other games disagree prove that's wrong. Those games are a blast to play in 15 minute bursts and yet suck royally with touch controls alone.

Zzoram said:
Also, the way to think of it is not iPhone vs Vita, but iPhone alone vs iPhone + Vita, because smartphones are approaching the point where everyone with a cellphone is going to have a smartphone. Handhelds will never reach that level of saturation. Once everyone with money has an iPhone, the Vita has to offer so much more that it's worth carrying a second device around. I believe it's very unlikely that people who already have an iPhone would be willing to carry a Vita with them as well, since one device is easier to carry than two.

I agree with you. People only have so much room in their pockets. Between wallet, keys in one pocket and a cellphone in the other, there really isn't room for most people to carry a seperate portable gaming device with them without having to carry a seperate bag everywhere they go. It's a pain in the ass. And this pocket space issue is one that has always held dedicated portable gaming devices back from reaching even higher penetration levels, dating as far back as the original Gameboy and Game Gear.

This is one huge reason why iOS gaming is so popular with the general populace that like to game, but not enough to carry a dedicated gaming device with them. Because iOS gaming can be done without you having to carry yet another bulky device with you everywhere you go. What holds iPhone gaming back is the shitty controls it offers for most genres of games.

A competent smartphone with competent gaming controls and competent games (an Xperia Play 2 compatible with Vita games) would succeed in the market for these reasons. And Sony is ideally situated to deliver on this.
 

Sealda

Banned
It would be awesome if one could combine the Play, PS4 and PS VITA into one master machine the size of your palm. So you can carry it everywhere and show it off.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
You posited the PowerVR 6 in your last thread here.

The feedback to that was that you were wrong. What has changed?
 

Spiegel

Member
Here we go again.

Vita hasn't been delayed, it's going to be released this year in Japan.

It won't have a PowerVR6 gpu
 

Durante

Member
Vita won't have Series 6. It's just not feasible. It will release this year, remember. (doesn't matter whether it's only in one region)
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
IPad titles wont come close to games like uncharted and co. On vita - and those are first en games. He'll most game have trouble trouncing PSP 1 graphics ....devs won't spend 20 million in software which just runs on an iPad 3 lol.

Vita will be just fine with the current configuration .....
 

Yoshiya

Member
We already know the Vita is SGX543MP4 (Series 5XT).

Edit: I'll mention here what's wrong as I come across it. Firstly, your Apple rumours have gone off the crazy scale. The iPhone 5 will be using the A5 without a doubt, and TSMC is only now (supposedly) starting trial production of a SoC for Apple on 28nm. I doubt it could be ready in that volume this year. I'd also consider it more likely that the A6 will be a dual Cortex A15 design than quad A9.

All pre-3GS iOS devices were powered by PowerVR's MBX, which is a Series 4 design, with the 3GS, corresponding touch and the A4 devices all being the Series 5 SGX535.

Edit x2: Denver is not A15, Nvidia licensed the ARMv7 instruction set presumably in order to create a unique but compatible RISC design, akin to what Qualcomm do with Spapdragon (the Scorpion and Krait cores are not ARM designs).
 

Busty

Banned
Seems like an interesting write up. I'm assuming that the Xperia Play is dead at it's current price point but if they can get a cheaper model out for the pay-as-go market and younger users they just might have something there.

And in saying that where does Playstation Suite and Sony's android tablets fit into all this?
 
Busty said:
And in saying that where does Playstation Suite and Sony's android tablets fit into all this?

The Playstation 4, Playstation Vita and Xperia Play 2 will all support Playstation Suite and be able to play any games available on the Playstation Suite. I think that goes without saying.
 

Shanlei91

Sonic handles my blue balls
It's hard to sell "phone games" on the Xperia Play when it plays a library of PSX, N64, etc. via android. That is the case on most android phones regardless.

Although it is completely dead on Sony's front, there is still support from other developers as well as an AT&T launch for later this year. Still, they would be idiots to not come out with a Vita-phone.
 

ofx360

Banned
Plus, PSV has already been cleared by the FCC with its current specs....

There's so many word, but so little thought
 

[Nintex]

Member
This chip is due out in 2013. If I were Sony of Microsoft, I would target a fall 2014 release date for the next console just in case of unanticipated delays, to give devs more time with final dev kits, and to reduce costs by waiting till the production is full steam ahead and all the kinks are worked out before jumping in.
If I were Sony or Microsoft I wouldn't trust Nvidia and their 'release dates'. As long as they're dependent on TSMC they'll keep delaying that stuff and console builders can't risk that. If they can possibly make it I'd say fall 2012 for the next Xbox along with Halo 4. It makes so much sense. All MS needs is to put some AMD DX11 hardware in their new box sell it for $299-$399 and fire on those tesselators. The Halo fanbase will surely follow.
 

Alrus

Member
Should have precised it's a speculation thread in the title. As of now it sounds more like it's stating facts.

Also, there isn't gonna be a Vita Phone. I think after the Xperia Play failure, Sony will just stop pursuing that kind of experiment to reduce costs. Also depending on battery life I wouldn't want my phone to be the same device as my portable gaming console. I like it when phones last at least 2 days, not mere hours.

Also, a 2013 chip in a 2013/2014 console? That's a bit unlikely.
 

BurntPork

Banned
You really think Sony's going to go with ExpensiVidia again? I highly doubt it, and I've seen enough evidence to the contrary.
 
Why should I bother with Vita now, when I can get all of it on my phone later? How will they solve twin analogs and shoulder buttons?
 
The Vita Smartphone is such a natural evolution of the device that it would be downright stupid of Sony NOT to do it once the die shrink happens.

Castor Krieg said:
Why should I bother with Vita now, when I can get all of it on my phone later?

Which is why they won't announce it until close to launch. You'll get it now, and then 2 years later when they release the Vita Phone in the PSP Go/Xperia Play form factor, you will consider getting that as well. If not you, there are tons of gamers that would go for a smaller Vita that also functions as a fully featured smartphone.

Castor Krieg said:
How will they solve twin analogs and shoulder buttons?

The same way they did for the PSP Go, 3DS etc. Analog nubs (dual) and a slide out (or folded) design.
 

Hyuga

Banned
Stephen Colbert said:
The Vita Smartphone is such a natural evolution of the device that it would be downright stupid of Sony NOT to do it once the die shrink happens.



Which is why they won't announce it until close to launch. You'll get it now, and then 2 years later when they release the Vita Phone in the PSP Go/Xperia Play form factor, you will consider getting that as well. If not you, there are tons of gamers that would go for a smaller Vita that also functions as a fully featured smartphone.



The same way they did for the PSP Go, 3DS etc. Dual analog nubs and a slide out (or folded) design.

x0p4ye.gif
 

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
Stephen Colbert said:
The Vita Smartphone is such a natural evolution of the device that it would be downright stupid of Sony NOT to do it once the die shrink happens.
To me it seems the opposite is true. Vita has been defined as a dedicated gaming handheld that takes influence from, but ultimately sets itself apart from smartphones in key ways.
Stephen Colbert said:
The same way they did for the PSP Go, 3DS etc. Dual analog nubs and a slide out (or folded) design.
Okay. What about the back touchpad that lines up with the screen?
 

Alrus

Member
Stephen Colbert said:
The Vita Smartphone is such a natural evolution of the device that it would be downright stupid of Sony NOT to do it once the die shrink happens.



Which is why they won't announce it until close to launch. You'll get it now, and then 2 years later when they release the Vita Phone in the PSP Go/Xperia Play form factor, you will consider getting that as well. If not you, there are tons of gamers that would go for a smaller Vita that also functions as a fully featured smartphone.

The Vita is quite a "bulky" machine and would make for an horrible phone. Unpractical to carry et all. And the back touch screen on a slide out would be quite a pain to use depending on where it's placed.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
The word "speculation" in the title would have been, you know, nice.
 
Krev said:
To me it seems the opposite is true. Vita has been defined as a dedicated gaming handheld that takes influence from, but ultimately sets itself apart from smartphones in key ways.

The Vita sets itself apart from Xperia Play mainly in that it's bigger, that it's games look nicer and that it's not a phone.

All three differences are for the same fundamental reason, that the hardware of the Vita can't fit into the form factor Xperia Play just yet. That won't be the case in 2 years. The only key difference would be sticks vs nubs, and nubs when done right (the 3DS and Wii U for example), are perfectly fine for gaming.

Krev said:
Okay. What about the back touchpad that lines up with the screen?

It would be on the rear/back/bottom of the device, as is the case on the current Vita. Besides, the rear touchpad is really not a big deal. Sony was pretty adamant that you wouldn't be required to use the back touchpad, that you could game with just the buttons and sticks if you desire, and that the rear touchpad is more of optional supplement than a requirement.

You will be able to, and will probably prefer to play through all of Uncharted NGP without using the rear touchpad once.
 

thuway

Member
For everyone complaining that the Vita is not using the Power VR Series 6 - its quite simple-
No one on GAF, knows the positives or negatives of the damn thing. It might be too much of a headache for whatever advantage it has.

Yoshida and the boys are smart, if the benefits of the Series 6 weren't there, I don't expect them to buy into it.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
DeaconKnowledge said:
OP titled as if this is is legit.


76895-grandpa-simpson.gif

Good thing I only read 1/2 paragraph before I decided to scroll down a couple posts. Nothing worse than reading a huge block of technical specs and get to post 2 and have it debunked already.
 

ofx360

Banned
Stephen Colbert said:
It would be on the rear/back/bottom of the device, as is the case on the current Vita. Besides, the rear touchpad is really not a big deal. Sony was pretty adamant that you wouldn't be required to use the back touchpad, that you could game with just the buttons and sticks if you desire, and that the rear touchpad is more of optional supplement than a requirement.
It won't be required for all games, but games CAN make it a requirement. Like that little game they showed off where you deform the world to move a ball around.

Dude, abandon your idea of a Xperia 2. That thing is dead in the water. The android market is pretty dead when it comes to games in general. All the action is solely on iTouch/iPhone/iPad.

I think a better idea/speculation would be sony using its PS Suite service to bring mobile games to its handheld and branching out by expanding their social aspects of their PSN to the iOS/Android platforms.
 
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