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N+ Developers talk XBLA: "There's like 100 games, and they're all shit." (plus more!)

QQ this game sucks because i'm a lowly silver QQ i have a vendetta against popcap so their games automatically suck QQ oh balls this menu is ugly, plus popcap QQ ANOTHER SHOOTER QQ x did this way better game is irrelevant QQ ect ect.

seriously these bitches need midol. they're obviously upset about royalties and not getting a free gold account.

oh love the clip at geo wars cause it didn't upload his stats when his connection was lost. what a petty mofo. and damn i haven't even read the whole thing yet. :lol
 
This is pretty sad.

I recommended N+ to everyone I know, wished Metanet all the success in the world, sympathised with them when they explained why the level sharing was a Friends List only thing... and now this? Trashing other XBLA games like that seems so petty, to go to all that effort just to do something so bitchy and bitter is completely pointless.

If DLC for N+ comes out, I don't think I'll be buying it now, will save the points for Peggle instead (that's right Metanet, FUCKING PEGGLE)
 

aku:jiki

Member
:D

Don't mess with my XBLA, bitches!

PrivateRyan said:
If DLC for N+ comes out, I don't think I'll be buying it now, will save the points for Peggle instead (that's right Metanet, FUCKING PEGGLE)
Ooh, that one's gotta sting for MN.

Hell, I'll sign up for that. Refuse N+ DLC, buy a PopCap game instead! :lol
 

haowan

Member
oh shits prince of persia. forgot about that, might have to get that one day. maybe if i turn on my xbox in the next 6 months i will download the demo or something
 

xblarcade

Member
the developer from N+ bashing a game based solely on it's graphics?

:lol :lol

Well I'm off to make a 3D in 2D style clone of N+ to pitch to PopCap
 
idiots said:
Asteroids/Asteroids Deluxe A single review covers almost all of the retro/arcade titles: disappointing.
I won't bother getting into how lame/lazy the remade graphics tend to be.

Centipede/Millipede see above

Defender see generic retro review above

Dig Dug see above

Discs of Tron see above

Double Dragon One of my biggest retro disappointments.. I played a lot of this in arcades and PC, but it just sucks now.
20 years of improvements to the genre have made it horribly obsolete/awkward/frustrating/boring.
Would have considered it if it was all the Double Dragons together.

Fatal Fury Special see generic retro review above

Frogger see above

Galaga see above

Gauntlet see above

Golden Axe see above

Gyruss see above

Joust see above

Missile Command see generic retro review

New Rally-X see generic retro review

Robotron: 2084 see generic retro review

<snip of zillions more retrowhining>

Sensible World of Soccer A thoroughly smashing, corking game. It's tops. Grab a couple of mates, and Bob's your uncle!
FINALLY I get to play this! The depth with such a simple control scheme is brilliant, the graphics are gorgeous. Toodle-pip!

So basically reskinned retro games are trash except for the ones that you like. :lol
 

aku:jiki

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
Unbelievable.

I do believe they are going to choke and die on their own foot.
I love how they just keep fumbling, and won't just bow out gracefully. They keep trying to save face by posting something neutral, fair or even positive, but they always end up in Bittersville by the end of the article and what was supposed to be positive turns into a whiny rant. Just stop talking, guys!

This video is Metanet. Over and over and over and over.
 
One thing hasn't been answered on this yet... will the royalty thing affect their profit from N+ or just their profits on future XBLA stuff? I really can't see it being the former, but they're so angry that I can't help feeling it is.
 

kmfdmpig

Member
Psychotext said:
One thing hasn't been answered on this yet... will the royalty thing affect their profit from N+ or just their profits on future XBLA stuff? I really can't see it being the former, but they're so angry that I can't help feeling it is.

Will they have future projects on XBLA? I am sure Microsoft is not thrilled with them airing so much dirty laundry publicly. On the one hand I'm sure that the vast majority of XBLA users have no idea what the N+ developers have said, but on the other I'm not sure that Microsoft would find much benefit dealing with a bunch of unprofessional ingrates. To be honest I'm not sure any company in their right mind would deal with them. They are about as unprofessional as I've ever seen any company be in any industry. The fact that there are essentially 314 posts, most of which talk about how rude and unprofessional they are, is a very telling sign. If I were MS I would probably think that the aggravation was not worth it and wish them luck with future partners, who are likely to be $hit on and ripped apart as well.
 

xblarcade

Member
Psychotext said:
One thing hasn't been answered on this yet... will the royalty thing affect their profit from N+ or just their profits on future XBLA stuff? I really can't see it being the former, but they're so angry that I can't help feeling it is.

I'm pretty sure it's not for N+ but for their future titles. First off if the contract was signed, then MS wouldn't be able to change it. Secondly when he was bitching about it, he seemed to be referring to having to change their business model going forward.
 

Slavik81

Member
Brashnir said:
If NSMB, Halo1 and 2, and SSHD are crap...
Did they say that? Man, I like these guys more and more every day.
Each one of those are critically praised through the roof but are disappointingly only maybe a single standard deviation above average (as compared to other major releases). Certainly not crap, but there's a nice middle-ground there somewhere.

That said, the post by Polari disturbs me. Defending a generalization like that with a series of systematic dismissal like that is a bad idea. It sets you up to defend individual data points in a general trend. Unless it's an outlying point, it's pointless trouble.
 

xblarcade

Member
Slavik81 said:
Each one of those are critically praised through the roof but are disappointingly only maybe a single standard deviation above average (as compared to other major releases). Certainly not crap, but there's a nice middle-ground there somewhere.

Don't take this as me knocking N+, but where do you see it in that scale?
 
xblarcade said:
I'm pretty sure it's not for N+ but for their future titles. First off if the contract was signed, then MS wouldn't be able to change it. Secondly when he was bitching about it, he seemed to be referring to having to change their business model going forward.
Yeah, that was my impression of it. Still, they probably made more on N+ than they expected to make on their first two titles anyway. :lol
 

Slavik81

Member
xblarcade said:
Don't take this as me knocking N+, but where do you see it in that scale?
About on par with Stardust, and a few notches down from the other three there.
(Which is pretty damn good)

It's hard to compare big-budget games to smaller games because often the quality of the core gameplay can be the same but the difference is that the big-budget game delivers more variety and a number of things (such as cinematic presentation) that the small game can't.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
Shard said:
Another thing that is grinding my gears is their bitching about games that are available elsewhere being on the XBLA. I am sorry Metanet but not everybody bought the Gamecube version of Alien Hominid HD and it is kind of nice to have a place where the game is readily available.


especially when their game is available elsewhere
 

Skilotonn

xbot xbot xbot xbot xbot
I read this thread when it first showed up and figured that it wasn't worth it to even bother posting in it because I mean, these N+ devs came off as nothing more than arrogant dicks - there was nothing for me to say when I read that these people said that "every. single. game on XBLA was shit" aside from their own game - it doesn't get anymore prickish than that...

I can understand their "rage" in light of the restrictions and royalties etc. - if they had left it at that, there wouldn't be any hate towards these guys, but no, these devs that I've never even heard of till the day N+ showed up and I played the demo at taking a dump on the entire XBLA library, where no one can disagree that XBLA has its share of excellent games...

Clicked on the thread again to find out why the hell people are still bumping this thread, and I see their "reviews" of all the games (why did they even bother, honestly) which in a nutshell is a whole lot of "this game is great BUT we don't have Gold so it sucks ass" with a dash of "this game is already out elsewhere" (nevermind the fact that it's entirely possible that people never even heard of the originals, much less played them, or the substantial improvements of online multiplayer/co-op, leaderboards, HD resolutions, Achievements, content, etc.) and that their office internet sucks, so the game sucks too...

Jackasses.

Hey guys, I heard N was on PC first - why should anybody buy N+ then? Why would you guys even develop it going by your golden morals? Oh, because its your game - the only diamond in the sea of crap called XBLA, right?

Draft said:
:lol

Holy shit OK so maybe these guys are crazy.

Now you realise this? How the hell can every single game in a platform's catalog be perfect? Forget that, looking at their "reviews", these people are hating on the games for the most nonsensical reasons period...

Way to make a little cash and then take a dump on any and everything to do with what got you that success to begin with...
 

Gowans

Member
I really love the fact the N+ guys are out there saying this stuff, its there opinion like mine is to disagree with most of it as a platform I love XBLA.
 

haowan

Member
hmm, well I agree with their estimation of most of those retro titles.

they have taken that stuff down though as far as I know.

wasn't swos a remake rather than a port?
 

avatar299

Banned
sneaky77 said:
And they are acting like unprofessional pricks... so they should be called on it
Yes they are. It's called trolling. People have gotten so upset over a little exaggerated comment over a service, and completely ignored their complaints. I don't blame them for pissing so many people off If it's this damn easy.

And last I checked their game developers. Not ambassadors.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Sean said:


80% of their reviews go like this:

- I hear multiplayer is awesome but I've only got a silver account!
- Does the world need another *insert genre here*?
- 'We fucking hate PopCap games kick them off the service, rawr!!'
Pretty much. That list was pathetic. Really sad to see developers stooping like this.

(And Heavy Weapon rawks.)
 

Kuroyume

Banned
avatar299 said:
Yes they are. It's called trolling. People have gotten so upset over a little exaggerated comment over a service, and completely ignored their complaints. I don't blame them for pissing so many people off If it's this damn easy.

And last I checked their game developers. Not ambassadors.

What are rambling about now? You're so incoherent.
 

aku:jiki

Member
Gowans007 said:
I really love the fact the N+ guys are out there saying this stuff, its there opinion like mine is to disagree with most of it as a platform I love XBLA.
The thing is that opinions aren't this kind of holy sanctuary that nobody can touch. Opinions can be wrong, and opinions can be bullshit. We're just calling them out on throwing shit in every direction without even seeing what they're throwing at.

I mean, shit, they bitched at XBLA for not having Wipeout! How are we supposed to respect that?

avatar299 said:
People have gotten so upset over a little exaggerated comment over a service, and completely ignored their complaints.
That's their own damn fault, though. They should've shut up with their ignorant "opinions" if they wanted to deliver a message. And the thing isn't just "a little exaggerated comment." The original interview was littered with bullshit statements, then they followed it up with even more bull, and then even more.

And if you don't understand why a minor company trolling the corporate sphere is utterly retarded, that's your problem.

avatar299 said:
And last I checked their game developers. Not ambassadors.
Last I checked, capitalism requires everybody involved to have a few ambassadors on staff. Ever hear of this little thing called "PR"?
 

sneaky77

Member
avatar299 said:
Yes they are. It's called trolling. People have gotten so upset over a little exaggerated comment over a service, and completely ignored their complaints. I don't blame them for pissing so many people off If it's this damn easy.

And last I checked their game developers. Not ambassadors.


I don't think that pissing people off in a forum really matters to them... is the fact that they are showing their ass to other developers and publishers that should probably matter to them unless their goal is to stop making money, because before xbla N was available for free wasn't it?
 

haowan

Member
I think people are concentrating on the details while not looking at the overall gist of what they're saying: it wouldn't matter if there were all these crappy games on there if it were easier for users to see at a glance what people thought was great, and if there were many more games than there currently are.

I've said it before, XBLA needs an easily-accessible portal (ideally with a matching web portal accessible from any browser) with social functionality or at least some charts. Microsoft also need to start greenlighting masses of content instead of turning down content that is similar to what's on the service already.

That's the message, not "why isn't there any Wipeout on XBLA". Which by the way just means "Why isn't there any high speed racing game on XBLA".
 

aku:jiki

Member
haowan said:
I think people are concentrating on the details while not looking at the overall gist of what they're saying: it wouldn't matter if there were all these crappy games on there if it were easier for users to see at a glance what people thought was great, and if there were many more games than there currently are.
While I do agree with what you're saying, that isn't the message at all. If you read all they've said so far, the message is clearly that they're pissed off that their indie favorites and buddies aren't on there. All that bitching about PopCap has absolutely nothing to do with the ease of use of the system. How "every shooter but Ikaruga sucks" has nothing to do with proper marketing. There is no higher purpose or message than plain old bitching here.

haowan said:
That's the message, not "why isn't there any Wipeout on XBLA". Which by the way just means "Why isn't there any high speed racing game on XBLA".
I assumed somebody would say that, but no, that's not it. Throughout the entire "review list," he constantly calls out specific titles by name. Not as examples of a genre, but specific games. He does it several dozen times throughout the post. I am to assume that he broke that consistency completely at random, with no indication, with Wipeout? No, not really.
 

haowan

Member
That's what I'm saying though - he's got carried away trying to prove that his original assertion that XBLA sucks is correct, when really it doesn't matter at all what he's said about those games. The point is, there's a lot of crap content on there that, even if you don't think it's crap, is preventing further content that might be better from getting on to the service.
 
haowan said:
That's what I'm saying though - he's got carried away trying to prove that his original assertion that XBLA sucks is correct, when really it doesn't matter at all what he's said about those games. The point is, there's a lot of crap content on there that, even if you don't think it's crap, is preventing further content that might be better from getting on to the service.
But does it matter if I think it's crap or not? If it's selling then who am I to judge? I specifically like XBLA because there's such a massive range of games on there that you pretty much hate gaming if you can't find something worth playing.

As for stopping other games getting on the service... I can't believe that, simply because there have been a number of weeks where we've got no new releases.
 

aku:jiki

Member
haowan said:
The point is, there's a lot of crap content on there that, even if you don't think it's crap, is preventing further content that might be better from getting on to the service.
Ah, yes, that I will agree has been one of the points, and it's correct. Mad Tracks blocking other racing games is wrong. The "only on wednesdays!" schedule is broken. Certification sucks and takes too long.

The way Metanet has gone about saying this, however, has been wrong in every single way possible. Plus, it's not like these are shocking revelations that we need to ignore the bullshit to pay attention to. There's just not enough gold to find in the pile of shit Metanet has left here, and all we're left with are shitty hands.
 

haowan

Member
Psychotext said:
But does it matter if I think it's crap or not? If it's selling then who am I to judge? I specifically like XBLA because there's such a massive range of games on there that you pretty much hate gaming if you can't find something worth playing.

As for stopping other games getting on the service... I can't believe that, simply because there have been a number of weeks where we've got no new releases.

If it's selling then that's fine - like I said, what Metanet think about the games has nothing to do with their overall point, which is that Microsoft are saying that if a genre is 'saturated', they can't greenlight the game for an XBLA window. That's something that a ton of devs have said. Microsoft are definitely doing it.

aku:jiki said:
Ah, yes, that I will agree has been one of the points, and it's correct. Mad Tracks blocking other racing games is wrong. The "only on wednesdays!" schedule is broken. Certification sucks and takes too long.

The way Metanet has gone about saying this, however, has been wrong in every single way possible. Plus, it's not like these are shocking revelations that we need to ignore the bullshit to pay attention to. There's just not enough gold to find in the pile of shit Metanet has left here, and all we're left with are shitty hands.

Yes, I agree that they've said it badly. They've taken down a lot of the offending stuff I think?
 

jarrod

Banned
aku:jiki said:
Did he really just call a game based on fantasy bugs generic compared to bog-standard fantasy game Fire Emblem? Somebody needs a dictionary.
I agree with your sentiment, but being fair he was more comparing the presentation and visual approach of the games rather than the scenario concepts. Fire Emblem (or Advance Wars really) may have a more generic setting than BoB, but doesn't mean they necessairily look more generic.

This is one point I'd agree with them on actually, Intelligent Systems probably has the freshest visual design and aesthetic really for these sorts of turn based gridded strategy titles. BoB is sort of...ugly in comparison, it reminds a bit visually of mid 90s early 32bit stuff actually (though obviously more technically competent)... sort of like a 3DO game in HD or something, if that makes sense.
 
The issue with the statement......And subsequent retraction....... (if you want something close to a legitimate, analyized look at what MN said, and their quick re-statement).....



Xbox Live Arcade sales, at a whole, are very good, and for many instances, lucrative. However, Median Gross Revenues for the platform have not increased since the inception. First Month revenues continue to hover around $350,000 per title, for the first month. This is despite the fact there are over 11,000,000 XBL members, that can purchase the titles.

Compare this to the hard copy, retailer sales, and you see that retail sales are always going up for average Gross Revenue for games for a semi-decent clip: RSV2 will make more than #1, 2007 titles did better than 06 titles, on average, ect.

So then you have to look at why this is the case: It's the retro POS titles that Namco, Midway, and other developers have plunged onto the market, mainly in the 2nd and 3rd quarters last year. Many of these $5 titles sold poorly. However, these titles, no matter how bad they are, compete with top-tier titles in terms of "shelf space" (as SOTN has the same placing as Missle Defense), and can cause consumer confusion with navigating the UI for XBLA.

This is where MetaNet, and others seem to have an issue with the system - major, top-tier titles do very well, but can get "clogged' in terms of sales, because they are competing with the said, crap games.


However, since that comment, they've realized their game is the 2nd best selling game of the year, just behind Rez HD (by about 20,000 units, despite coming out 2-3 weeks later), and is trending to be a mega-blockbuster on the service.

MetaNet knows that if they lambaste XBLA and MS, they will change little, and put their next mega-seller, Braid, into a very bad spot. What if MS decides to "require" a little extra certification for a game that's destined to make MN millions of dollars over the long term?

MetaNet, like other developers, is just very worried to see some good titles like Sensible World of Soccer, Undertow, and Commanders: Attack of the Genos tank compared to cheaper, crappier titles, and wonder the reason, as it seems to be that the UI allows for too much clogging of space.
 

avatar299

Banned
aku:jiki said:
That's their own damn fault, though. They should've shut up with their ignorant "opinions" if they wanted to deliver a message. And the thing isn't just "a little exaggerated comment." The original interview was littered with bullshit statements, then they followed it up with even more bull, and then even more.
Yeah they said it in a bad way, but everyone understood what they were saying. You just purposely ignored it and focused on something easy to attack.

People like you are the reason why others have to rush to PR to say anything.

aku:jiki said:
And if you don't understand why a minor company trolling the corporate sphere is utterly retarded, that's your problem.
:lol :lol Talk about needing PR. Nice to know developers under XBLA should follow the company line


aku:jiki said:
Last I checked, capitalism requires everybody involved to have a few ambassadors on staff. Ever hear of this little thing called "PR"?
Last I checked, capitalism doesn't need PR. PR exists becuase everyone is either an idiot, a pussy, or likes being a martyr.

"Oh no, I must defend Undertow's honor." Jesus Christ
 

Haeleos

Member
What's the benefit of not allowing games of the same type on XBLA!? I'm not going to buy Mad Tracks but I might buy a better racing game. Therefore, you don't get my money. And this would avoid all these shitty no game Wednesdays.
 

Slavik81

Member
aku:jiki said:
While I do agree with what you're saying, that isn't the message at all. If you read all they've said so far, the message is clearly that they're pissed off that their indie favorites and buddies aren't on there. All that bitching about PopCap has absolutely nothing to do with the ease of use of the system. How "every shooter but Ikaruga sucks" has nothing to do with proper marketing. There is no higher purpose or message than plain old bitching here.
To be fair, the majority of shooters released on XBL do suck. Years later, we have a million uninspired cash ins on the success of Geometry Wars (which, while fun, is derivative enough already).

Did we even have a good scrolling shooter before Omega Five? That took years! We're getting a bit of an influx with Res and Triggerhearts Excellica and I'm really, really, really looking forward to Ikaruga, but the library for that sort of thing is TINY!!

Until very recently, XBL has really lacked good shooters and regardless of whether the specifics of their reviews and their lists and their justifications... The general message was right.

I assumed somebody would say that, but no, that's not it. Throughout the entire "review list," he constantly calls out specific titles by name. Not as examples of a genre, but specific games. He does it several dozen times throughout the post. I am to assume that he broke that consistency completely at random, with no indication, with Wipeout? No, not really.
Yeah, their reviews are not a good idea. At all.
If you say 'there are 5 games worth buying' and there's some good variety in the service, nearly everyone will have maybe 3-8 games that are worth buying to them. They won't necessarily be the same games for everyone, either. People can agree with you even if they don't agree with your specific tastes and circumstances.

Dragging yourself into the specifics is a good way to get destroyed by the legions of people who agree with you generally, but disagree with you specifically. A bad move.
 
Mr Killemgood said:
A whole lot of sensible stuff

This guy knows what he's talking about.

The N+ guys got carried away bashing XBLA titles, but a lot of their original post was pretty spot on. If you've dealt at all with XBLA from the developer standpoint (especially trying to publish independently), it's a bit of a nightmare. We were looking at a 6 month delay minimum from the time we'd certify to our game's release if we published on XBLA because the pipeline is so clogged with retro ports and the like. There's a lot of gems on the service, I'd never agree that "all the games are shit" but there's also a lot of crap on there and no real way to filter out the good from the bad since everything is just lumped together.

The important thing with XBLA is that the current setup just doesn't justify itself financially for a lot of teams, and I think what the N+ guys rightfully question (if a bit un-tactfully) is whether or not the abundance of low-quality titles on the service hurts sales of the truly good ones that have been mentioned time and again in this very thread. Look at Mr. Killemgood's numbers - there's 11 million XBLA accounts but a blockbuster selling title like Geometry Wars has sold in the range of ~600,000 units (depending on who you listen to). Most titles unless they're retro ports or UNO seem to sell in the 100,000-300,000 range. The gross profits seem okay but once you take out Microsoft's cut, the publisher's cut, and any other factors there's really not a whole lot there for the developer. Contrast that to how much you pull down going full retail (where you've got a much bigger audience for whatever reason) and you can do "okay" on sales and make more in the end. Something to think about when you wonder why a game isn't an XBLA or PSN title - I know a lot of developers that would love to churn out high quality, small titles on those services but it just doesn't make sense financially, at least not yet, and the royalties increase on XBLA certainly didn't help things.
 
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