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[Tschumi]

Yeah well, obviously i agree~

 

[joe_zazen]

I honestly think its simpler than that; My thought is that while you can switch characters, sympathies, big-bads, and all round world-view within the fiction, you simply cannot violate the core "mission" premise of the gameplay. That singular purpose cannot be violated because its the through-line for the player, the thing that connects them to everything else.

The hero can in fact be revealed to be the villain, nobility can be revealed to be folly, the enemy you've been chasing may prove to be a decoy or a phantom, etc. But what you can't do, without losing a chunk of the audience at least, is set up a powerful, motivating, goal and then simply abandon it mid-way through the overall narrative arc.

You can work around this by segmenting the story into self-contained acts, where you get a beginning, middle and end, and then the story resets, pivoting to a new perspective that builds on and/or subverts understanding of what was accomplished this far (both Nier games do this, and it works very well). It even possible to add a third-act which extends and builds upon the composite world-view established previously like Nier Automata does.

The key seems to be having clear points of demarcation (route A, route B, etc.) and ensuring that each part stands on its own as being its own particular thing. You fold this into a singular long arc like TLOU2 does, and the overall effect is like removing the punctuation from a paragraph or run-on sentence. Meaning gets lost.

To be specific, if it were me directing TLOU2 I'd break the game into 3 serially unlocked chapters.

Chapter 1 would be Ellie's story, I'd trim out the introductory scenes establishing Abby and the WLF and simply let things play out as they do with the exception that it'd end with Ellie killing Abby in theater. Roll credits, let the player feel the futility of their triumph.

Chapter 2 would reinstate the cut Abby segments from Chapter 1, to deepen an understanding of her character arc (showing her initially where Ellie ends up, consumed by vengeance), and let things play out exactly as they do in the game as it stands. Abby spares Ellie, roll credits and let the player process this new turn of events.

Chapter 3, again simply let this play out as before. I'd intercut the establishing scenes of both Ellie and Abby if possible because the idea at this point is that both characters, while compromised, have their reasons for doing what they've done.

The big change though would be having a choice in the final face-off as to whether to spare or kill Abby at the beach. It wouldn't matter if this was faked so as to preserve a singular canonical finish(i.e. if Ellie kills Abby, she sits there and bleeds out herself also), just something to enshrine the point of the story.

i would have bought that game. Good analysis.

 

[diffusionx]

I just finished Uncharted 4, and it was exactly the same game as Uncharted 2 and 3. It looked great, but it was the same game (and no, the range rover sections aren't enough), and mostly got a pass whereas Gears 4 was raked over the coals for the same thing. And the Tomb Raiders games showed how this style of title can iterate, especially the 2nd one.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I just finished Uncharted 4, and what how did it iterate over Uncharted 2 or 3? It looked great, but it was the same game, and mostly got a pass whereas Gears 4 was raked over the coals for the same thing. And the Tomb Raiders games showed how this style of title can iterate, especially the 2nd one.

Play it on a real difficulty where you're forced to actually use the entire combat arenas and the tools at your disposal, there's clearly more to it than the other entries if you do this. Gears 4 and 5 get shit because they're still these clunky, slow-moving, boring shooters where you sit behind cover and occasionally peak out and shoot.

 

[diffusionx]

Play it on a real difficulty where you're forced to actually use the entire combat arenas and the tools at your disposal, there's clearly more to it than the other entries if you do this. Gears 4 and 5 get shit because they're still these clunky, slow-moving, boring shooters where you sit behind cover and occasionally peak out and shoot.

I don't know, I think you can say the same about the older titles. Besides, playing through it once was enough of a slog, thanks. The game just sucks.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Playing through it once was enough of a slog, thanks. The game just sucks.

Show me a Gears game where you can get high level play like this...

 

[diffusionx]

Show me a Gears game where you can get high level play like this...

I'm not comparing Gears to Uncharted. I am saying the 4th games in both entries didn't do much if anything to evolve past the older titles, one got a pass because they are media darlings and can make pretty cinemas and the other got raked over the coals for it.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I'm not comparing Gears to Uncharted. I am saying the 4th games in both entries didn't do much if anything to evolve past the older titles, one got a pass because they are media darlings and can make pretty cinemas and the other got raked over the coals for it.

Uncharted 4 has bigger arenas with more verticality and options to take advantage of that verticality than past entries. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong.

 

[diffusionx]

Uncharted 4 has bigger arenas with more verticality and options to take advantage of that verticality than past entries. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong.

Those sections in the ruins with the tedious vine swinging? Yawn. It really didn't add anything interesting or fresh to the game.

You're not going to change my mind on this.

 

[bender]

Show me a Gears game where you can get high level play like this...

I'm not fan of Gears and I don't doubt the skill involved in high level Uncharted play, but I turned that video off after three minutes as most of his was just Nate running around the combat arena.

 

[Fake]

This thread is pretty fucking toxic, and it’s not from the TLOU2 fans.

Good for you. Now fuck off

Lol.

 

[sainraja]

I'm not comparing Gears to Uncharted. I am saying the 4th games in both entries didn't do much if anything to evolve past the older titles, one got a pass because they are media darlings and can make pretty cinemas and the other got raked over the coals for it.

Those sections in the ruins with the tedious vine swinging? Yawn. It really didn't add anything interesting or fresh to the game.

You're not going to change my mind on this.

I'm not fan of Gears and I don't doubt the skill involved in high level Uncharted play, but I turned that video off after three minutes as most of his was just Nate running around the combat arena.

I would really like to know the types of games you guys actually consider to be fun.

------------

In reference to the video.....

I can't take criticisms like "all you have to do is press up to make your character go up a wall" that seriously; ok, so, how would you rather do it? Most games we play consist of PRESSING buttons, moving your stick up, down, left, right. What are you all expecting?

 

[sainraja]

All ND games are based on Uncharted 1´s design... that is based on (Tomb Raider + Gears of War)´s design!

This is the lamest of all criticisms that you can use against Uncharted. I mean, come on. How long has gaming existed? Those series you mention also weren't the first third-person adventure/shooter games and certainly won't be the last. Naughty Dog also worked on Crash/Jak & Daxter, both were also third-person and one series did have a little bit of shooting.

Your statement is similar to me saying: All Gears of War games are based on Gears 1's design... that is based on (Kill Switch + Resident Evil 4)'s design!

It's just stupid.

 

[bender]

I would really like to know the types of games you guys actually consider to be fun.

Rocket League (22,622 games played and counting), Animal Crossing and Nioh 2 are probably my most played games this year. Most disappointing game this year: Spelunky 2 (I need to spend more time with it but the visuals are garish). Old shit I played for the first time this year that I'm enjoying: Mario 64, Star Wars Episode 1 Racer

Is that enough for a psych profile?

I wasn't even really commenting on the quality of U4 but the video you posted was boring as all get out.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Those sections in the ruins with the tedious vine swinging? Yawn. It really didn't add anything interesting or fresh to the game.

You're not going to change my mind on this.

I mean if you're going to go about it in this way sure, I'm talking about how it changed the combat segments, not the added platforming in between. You don't bring anything interesting or fresh to the discussion of the game... try changing my mind on that. If you actually care why one game is praised more than another then listen, because Gears 4 bored the shit out of me but UC 4 was amazing.

I'm not fan of Gears and I don't doubt the skill involved in high level Uncharted play, but I turned that video off after three minutes as most of his was just Nate running around the combat arena.

Part of the point, though, in an Uncharted game even at the hardest difficulty the time spent sitting behind cover is minimal.

 

[bender]

I mean if you're going to go about it in this way sure, I'm talking about how it changed the combat segments, not the added platforming in between. You don't bring anything interesting or fresh to the discussion of the game... try changing my mind on that. If you actually care why one game is praised more than another then listen, because Gears 4 bored the shit out of me but UC 4 was amazing.



Part of the point, though, in an Uncharted game even at the hardest difficulty the time spent sitting behind cover is minimal.

Can't really speak to it, I haven't played Uncharted on crushing (?) since U2 but high level play isn't typically indicative of how most players succeed at higher difficulty levels.

 

[diffusionx]

I mean if you're going to go about it in this way sure, I'm talking about how it changed the combat segments, not the added platforming in between. You don't bring anything interesting or fresh to the discussion of the game... try changing my mind on that. If you actually care why one game is praised more than another then listen, because Gears 4 bored the shit out of me but UC 4 was amazing.

It didn't change the combat segments though. It didn't make the combat more interesting or feel newer. The game played the same even if it had a few sections with multi-story ruins instead of one story ruins. That's my point. Uncharted always had a slippery combat feel where you're supposed to move around a lot, going back to the first title.

Again, I'm not shilling for Gears 4. I thought that game was lame as well.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It didn't change the combat segments though. It didn't make the combat more interesting or feel newer. The game played the same even if it had a few sections with multi-story ruins instead of one story ruins. That's my point.

Again, I'm not shilling for Gears 4. I thought that game was lame as well.

I mean I'm sad that you played it the same way as before despite all the new tools it offered. It's not a compelling argument, though.

 

[longdi]

Show me a Gears game where you can get high level play like this...

I cant watch finish this. Too draggy with the incompetent AI stormtrooping Drake.

Isnt this what COD has been doing? The blockbustery shootouts, at least COD is more snappy to progress the stage, in part FPS has less platformy designs dragging time.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I cant watch finish this. Too draggy with the incompetent AI stormtrooping Drake.

Isnt this what COD has been doing? The blockbustery shootouts, at least COD is more snappy to progress the stage, in part FPS has less platformy designs dragging time.

Uncharted 4 has combat arenas, that's not CoD design. You can choose to approach it like the guy I linked or like this guy...

 

[lock2k]

All ND games are based on Uncharted 1´s design... that is based on (Tomb Raider + Gears of War)´s design!

And Gears was heavily influenced by Resident Evil 4 (also a very divisive game). Funny cycle.

 

[longdi]

Uncharted 4 has combat arenas, that's not CoD design. You can choose to approach it like the guy I linked or like this guy...

Thats the thing. The levels and AI seem to be designed for that blockbustery movie result, feels scripty and less involved.
This video still has Drake plopping from a pre-set point to another while looking nice throwing soldiers off the cliff, it looks draggy and pre-determined.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Thats the thing. The levels and AI seem to be designed for that blockbustery movie result, feels scripty and less involved.
This video still has Drake plopping from a pre-set point to another while looking nice throwing soldiers off the cliff, it looks draggy and pre-determined.

Yeah, it has great animations but it's clearly a relatively open environment, moreso than past entries. They want it to look like a movie, like it's scripted at all times, the idea is to make the cinematic moments happen all the time even if you don't play particularly well, as opposed to just the scripted sections.

 

[longdi]

Yeah, it has great animations but it's clearly a relatively open environment, moreso than past entries. They want it to look like a movie, like it's scripted at all times, the idea is to make the cinematic moments happen all the time even if you don't play particularly well, as opposed to just the scripted sections.

Thats how some of us agree with OP title.
Imo lets hope future ND and Sony other blockbusters move away from these 'cinematic moments' design next gen. They need a major refresh to keep players invested, else all their investments may not see the returns like this gen have.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Thats how some of us agree with OP title.
Imo lets hope future ND and Sony other blockbusters move away from these 'cinematic moments' design next gen. They need a major refresh to keep players invested, else all their investments may not see the returns like this gen have.

The problem with Nakey Jake and anyone agreeing with him is they just have opinions and they aren't right about what form of game design is better or more "up to date" than another. I don't think they need anything to retain player investment, I think their success earns them the right to make games how they want to.

 

[Kerotan]

I for one dont think we’ve had nearly enough threads about how butch women are completely unrealistic in a post apocalyptic world full of people with mushrooms growing out of their heads.

Can somebody please pull their finger out?

Actually buff women are exactly the type who would survive. Amanda Nunes, Chris Cyborg or Holly Holm in one category. Paris Hilton, Melania Trump and Kate Moss in the other. Who do you think Survives?

 

[Kerotan]

Thats how some of us agree with OP title.
Imo lets hope future ND and Sony other blockbusters move away from these 'cinematic moments' design next gen. They need a major refresh to keep players invested, else all their investments may not see the returns like this gen have.

First party Sony selling better then ever. The people want what they are getting.

 

[longdi]

First party Sony selling better then ever. The people want what they are getting.

Still a drop in the bucket of TAM.
Dont get me wrong, Sony catering to what their fans want is fine.
Except tastes may need a refresh, old gamers may go, new ones come.
Yet it seems Jimbo sitting on his laurels.

 

[CrysisFreak]

I think the newer Naughty Dog games (U4 and TLOU2) are fantastic and most of the hate is jealousy.
They have great level design, great responsiveness while having the best animations, great encounter design with tons of possibilities emerging every time.
They're great.
Now the previous ones are, in my opinion, more restrained and primitive. They have their own charm.
The newest ones are such a thrill.
LMAO at the Gears of War comparisons. Bullshit. TLOU2 feels completely different from the first one in terms of gameplay. Gears is really sticking to what it's doing good. A legitimate strategy.

 

[Warablo]

None of the Uncharted games had fun combat to me. It had some nice animations though.

 

[engstra]

I like NakeyJakey and he brings up some fair points however he does even say that narrative driven games aren't really his thing. For me, Naughty Dog games just click and Last of Us 2 was no exception. I love walking around in the world they have built and don't think many (if any) have made me feel some of the emotions this game gave me. That being said I still have some issues with parts of the story and some of the gameplay mechanics such as the semi-open world and rope that are introduced to never return again. Still a 10/10 though

 

[GustavoLT]

This is the lamest of all criticisms that you can use against Uncharted. I mean, come on. How long has gaming existed? Those series you mention also weren't the first third-person adventure/shooter games and certainly won't be the last. Naughty Dog also worked on Crash/Jak & Daxter, both were also third-person and one series did have a little bit of shooting.

Your statement is similar to me saying: All Gears of War games are based on Gears 1's design... that is based on (Kill Switch + Resident Evil 4)'s design!

It's just stupid.

I'm not saying that in a bad way... Uncharted / Tomb Raider / Gears / RE4... they're all great games that share similar gameplay mechanics! "cover/shoot/explore"

 

[Shmunter]

Whatever they are doing, I’m itching to go on another nd adventure

 

[mr.dilya]

Show me a Gears game where you can get high level play like this...

That's high level play?

 

[Kerotan]

Still a drop in the bucket of TAM.
Dont get me wrong, Sony catering to what their fans want is fine.
Except tastes may need a refresh, old gamers may go, new ones come.
Yet it seems Jimbo sitting on his laurels.

Nah fam, the younger generations love the uncharted formula and gameplay. It's not just us oldies.

 

[GametimeUK]

I mean I wish I could ask these guys for more insight about their opinions on things. Random questions pop in my head all the time when watching these things. He says he hates forced walking sections yet praises MGS3 for a forced walking section (The Sorrow). Yes, I'm aware The Sorrow is quite special and unique, but his point was they "did it with fucking gameplay". The actual gameplay amounts to nothing more than a walking section...

although as I'm writing this I've come to the realisation that your gameplay prior to this sets up the scene to work the way it does.

 

[Woggleman]

I have nothing against him but like another poster said he does not like story driven games so that right there is bias on his part. It would be like me reviewing a turn based RPG. I don't like that kind of gameplay so I would not be a good judge of it. It could be the best turned based RPG ever made and I would still prefer a mediocre shooter. That is not meant as a knock but every has their biases. It would be like somebody who dislikes rap music reviewing a Wu Tang album or somebody who dislikes heavy metal reviewing Iron Maiden.

 

[LaughingStock]

First time watching his videos. He's good.

 

[Digity]

First time watching his videos. He's good.

Check out his RDR2 video.

 

[LaughingStock]

Check out his RDR2 video.

I did. He's spot on about RDR2.

 

[Digity]

I did. He's spot on about RDR2.

Hundo p.

 

[Fox Mulder]

It’s hard to get five minutes in the video with him sitting on an exercise ball.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

That's high level play?

Feel free to record yourself beating it on Crushing without a HUD, please.

 

[mr.dilya]

Feel free to record yourself beating it on Crushing without a HUD, please.

I beat all the uncharteds on crushing, I used the HUD but it looked a hell of a lot better than that I can assure you lol.

 

[sainraja]

Rocket League (22,622 games played and counting), Animal Crossing and Nioh 2 are probably my most played games this year. Most disappointing game this year: Spelunky 2 (I need to spend more time with it but the visuals are garish). Old shit I played for the first time this year that I'm enjoying: Mario 64, Star Wars Episode 1 Racer

Is that enough for a psych profile?

I wasn't even really commenting on the quality of U4 but the video you posted was boring as all get out.

I was just trying to understand the type of games you actually do like.....and also because of the reason you cited which was pretty much a slight against Uncharted (running around the combat area, completely dismissing the reason for why....look you don't have to like the game, but using that as a way to justify your dislike, doesn't make sense to me; it is a dismissive statement similar to me saying you are running around in the combat area in Nioh, dismissing the sword fights or like you the gunplay.)

Many of the criticisms being used against Uncharted in this thread can be put against any other game in existence. Most games we play involve us pressing BUTTONS or moving STICKS. Linear games that rely on story have existed before Uncharted e.g. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. Uncharted just took that a little further, refined that formula a little more. They incorporated or blended in some platforming into the game for navigational purposes which is a lot more interesting then just having to move or shoot your way forward.

It didn't change the combat segments though. It didn't make the combat more interesting or feel newer. The game played the same even if it had a few sections with multi-story ruins instead of one story ruins. That's my point. Uncharted always had a slippery combat feel where you're supposed to move around a lot, going back to the first title.

Again, I'm not shilling for Gears 4. I thought that game was lame as well.

How or what type of changes would you like to see incorporated in Uncharted from a combat perspective that would change it up for you?

I'm not saying that in a bad way... Uncharted / Tomb Raider / Gears / RE4... they're all great games that share similar gameplay mechanics! "cover/shoot/explore"

I wasn't saying you were being negative but usually when people bring that kind of thing up in reference to Uncharted it's not really a complement. There are so many games now that are influenced from one another. It's just silly to keep pointing that out.

 

[KRYPT83]

Completely disagree besides the story being atrocious TLOU2 and a absolute master piece, semi open world with a linear path forward with good chunks of combat bowls/areas along with set pieces. ND have become the crown jewel in level design

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I beat all the uncharteds on crushing, I used the HUD but it looked a hell of a lot better than that I can assure you lol.

He has a faster time... beat this part in a faster time and we'll talk lol...