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NBA Playoffs 2019-2020

Men_in_Boxes

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Facts: Jordan went to the Finals 6 times. 6 of his fingers have rings.

Fuck off, dickhead.
Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Satch Sanders, KC Jones, Tom Heinson, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey, and Robert Horry all say...

"Only six?"

Oh that's right, no talent evaluator from the high school ranks through the pro ranks assesses talent based on number of team championships players accumulate.

Try evolving your argument past the one kids in elementary schools use.
 
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slugbahr

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Jan 4, 2019
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The edge of a circle
Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Satch Sanders, KC Jones, Tom Heinson, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey, and Robert Horry all say...

"Only six?"

Oh that's right, no talent evaluator from the high school ranks through the pro ranks assesses talent based on number of team championships players accumulate.

Try evolving your argument past the one kids in elementary schools use.
Fact: They played on different teams, in different eras, against different opponents.

Fuck off, dickhead - that's my response to your gif. You want to give me the finger, I'll tell you to fuck off.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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Fact: They played on different teams, in different eras, against different opponents.

Fuck off, dickhead - that's my response to your gif. You want to give me the finger, I'll tell you to fuck off.
Which is why no college scout or pro scout, anywhere on planet Earth, in any team sport, uses team championships to assess player talent.

 
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Men_in_Boxes

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Which is why your "fact" concerning their teams records means jack shit.
Fuck off.
I would argue that showing a players impact to their teams, throughout their career, is somewhat telling to how talented they are.

I would also argue that no rationally minded person would bring up rings to assess a players talent.
 
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Hinedorf

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No. You just regurgitated the same bullshit fanboy crap that I already responded to.
I think this is all great fun and this is a debate that will never end which makes it all the more enjoyable. For the most part everybody taking jabs at you are doing it with statistical facts and you're more or less retracting into hurt-feelings-fanboyism over Jordan.

We're still talking about Michael Jordan the unquestioned best player of his era, the king of NBA commercialism and the man most directly responsible for the expansion of the game as it is today. I have an even greater appreciation for Jordan after The Last Dance not that there wasn't anything new I learned.

There's no dispute how great Jordan is, there's clearly a dispute how great LeBron is. You want to trash LeBron please do so but take the emotion and sentiment out of it.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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We're still talking about Michael Jordan the unquestioned best player of his era...
Ah shit, here we go again.

I actually think Hakeem Olajuwon is better than MJ due to the following reasons...

- He had greater impact on his team in terms of winning percentage when off/on their respective rosters.

- He has a positive winning percentage against Jordans Bulls throughout his career despite playing with inferior teammates.

- Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to lead his team to a title with zero NBA all stars and zero NBA HoF teammates.

- Olajuwons impact on team defense dwarfed Jordans impact on team defense. Jordans impact on offense did not dwarf Olajuwons impact on offense (though he was better on that end of the court).

- Olajuwon had no kryptonite. Jordan struggled his entire career against quality teams with imposing front courts. The early Jazz, Rockets, and Spurs (all Western Conference teams) routinely trounced Jordan his entire career. He was always lucky enough to avoid those teams in the postseason.

I still have Jordan as a top 5 all time player though.
 
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Mod of War

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Jordan got drafted at age 21. It took him 4 years as a pro to turn the Bulls into a +.500 team.

LeBron got drafted at age 18. It took him 2 years as a pro to turn the Cavs into a +.500 team.

Facts: Jordan went to the Finals 6 times. 6 of his fingers have rings.

Fuck off, dickhead.
Bring the petty insults down a level.
 

EruditeHobo

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First of all winning matters, but it's not all that matters. The Bill Russell/Robert Horry arguments are hugely dumb, we are talking about modern complete basketball players, GOAT candidates. Not some old bastard trudging through weak competition when there was no actual free agency, or role players hitting a handful of shots in key moments. We're talking about leaders here, in a modern, athletic, more challenging league. Russell and Wilt, and Horry, they aren't close in these terms.

If LeBron had a career like Jordan, aka if he didn't leave the team who drafted him through his prime... he literally might not have a SINGLE ring. Not because he's not an all-timer, but because he's ALWAYS needed to leave in order to join somewhere/someone else in order to enable him to win something. You can bring up the Pippen contract, which is a nice advantage no doubt... but the bottom line is, MJ was in that situation and DID IT. And I'm sorry... actually DOING IT matters. People arguing for players that HAVEN'T DONE IT always want that to matter less. It doesn't though.

Jordan didn't leave. He stuck with an asshole owner who he hated in a specific system because it was important for him to win there. And he did. 6 in 8 years. LeBron... I mean, quote all the stats you want, and once again I'll remind you I think he's incredible and his stats are outrageous, but he simply did not do in totality what Jordan did.

Would he have? I don't know, it's POSSIBLE. But what would the Heat have looked like if Jordan went there? This what if game goes both ways. What if LeBron had Pippen... well, what if Jordan had modern weak defenses and Wade and Bosh and Riley and their supporting cast? What if Jordan joined up with Anthony Davis instead of retiring or whatever? How many Finals would Jordan take the Cavs to in a weak-ass East apart from basically 1 uninjured Celtics? Would Jordan be able to squeak by Dwight Howard's mighty Magic with the unstoppable superstar combo of Turkoglu & Rashard Lewis?? Or maybe at least do the unthinkable and force it to 6 games.

If this debate were Kobe v. LeBron, at least then these arguments would make logical sense. But when the ultimate measure is winning (which it is) combined with performance/numbers, I don't find much of this very compelling as someone that closely watched both players through their primes.

Lastly... 5 Jordans vs 5 LeBrons, whatever you think would happen here is not really relevant since we're talking about things much more based in reality. 5 ADs could beat 5 Shaqs or 5 Kareems or 5 Hakeems too. So what?

5 Jordans could easily find a way against 5 LeBrons by 80s/90s rules anyways. By today's rules, sure, 5 LeBrons are an insane challenge when the league has gone so much away from what Jordan does/did so well and favors the all-rounder more athletic nature of what LeBron does.

And I totally respect your right to be wrong
Likewise, good sir.
 
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paolo11

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Ah shit, here we go again.

I actually think Hakeem Olajuwon is better than MJ due to the following reasons...

- He had greater impact on his team in terms of winning percentage when off/on their respective rosters.

- He has a positive winning percentage against Jordans Bulls throughout his career despite playing with inferior teammates.

- Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to lead his team to a title with zero NBA all stars and zero NBA HoF teammates.

- Olajuwons impact on team defense dwarfed Jordans impact on team defense. Jordans impact on offense did not dwarf Olajuwons impact on offense (though he was better on that end of the court).

- Olajuwon had no kryptonite. Jordan struggled his entire career against quality teams with imposing front courts. The early Jazz, Rockets, and Spurs (all Western Conference teams) routinely trounced Jordan his entire career. He was always lucky enough to avoid those teams in the postseason.

I still have Jordan as a top 5 all time player though.
Hakeem is awesome and I would argue he could be the best center but all of your reasons against MJ are laughable.
 

Hinedorf

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First of all winning matters, but it's not all that matters. The Bill Russell/Robert Horry arguments are hugely dumb, we are talking about modern complete basketball players, GOAT candidates. Not some old bastard trudging through weak competition when there was no actual free agency, or role players hitting a handful of shots in key moments. We're talking about leaders here, in a modern, athletic, more challenging league. Russell and Wilt, and Horry, they aren't close in these terms.

If LeBron had a career like Jordan, aka if he didn't leave the team who drafted him through his prime... he literally might not have a SINGLE ring. Not because he's not an all-timer, but because he's ALWAYS needed to leave in order to join somewhere/someone else in order to enable him to win something. You can bring up the Pippen contract, which is a nice advantage no doubt... but the bottom line is, MJ was in that situation and DID IT. And I'm sorry... actually DOING IT matters. People arguing for players that HAVEN'T DONE IT always want that to matter less. It doesn't though.

Jordan didn't leave. He stuck with an asshole owner who he hated in a specific system because it was important for him to win there. And he did. 6 in 8 years. LeBron... I mean, quote all the stats you want, and once again I'll remind you I think he's incredible and his stats are outrageous, but he simply did not do in totality what Jordan did.

Would he have? I don't know, it's POSSIBLE. But what would the Heat have looked like if Jordan went there? This what if game goes both ways. What if LeBron had Pippen... well, what if Jordan had modern weak defenses and Wade and Bosh and Riley and their supporting cast? What if Jordan joined up with Anthony Davis instead of retiring or whatever? How many Finals would Jordan take the Cavs to in a weak-ass East apart from basically 1 uninjured Celtics? Would Jordan be able to squeak by Dwight Howard's mighty Magic with the unstoppable superstar combo of Turkoglu & Rashard Lewis?? Or maybe at least do the unthinkable and force it to 6 games.

If this debate were Kobe v. LeBron, at least then these arguments would make logical sense. But when the ultimate measure is winning (which it is) combined with performance/numbers, I don't find much of this very compelling as someone that closely watched both players through their primes.

Lastly... 5 Jordans vs 5 LeBrons, whatever you think would happen here is not really relevant since we're talking about things much more based in reality. 5 ADs could beat 5 Shaqs or 5 Kareems or 5 Hakeems too. So what?

5 Jordans could easily find a way against 5 LeBrons by 80s/90s rules anyways. By today's rules, sure, 5 LeBrons are an insane challenge when the league has gone so much away from what Jordan does/did so well and favors the all-rounder more athletic nature of what LeBron does.



Likewise, good sir.

Damn good argument!
 
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Cutty Flam

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This Celtics vs Heat series is going to be interesting. I think Boston stands a little sturdier in this matchup. They’ve been through more trails as a team past three years and should have more fuel to drive them past the Heat

But at the same time, Jimmy Butler doesn’t seem like he will budge, Dragic is a veteran who wont back down an inch as well. Bam is tough, highly skilled and agile as fuck for his size. Then you have all these three point shooters who have no fear of hoisting one up

I think it’ll come down to defensive intensity, and sort of like for the Raptors, dependent on one player of the teams that underperforms. I think this is the series that will end up shaping Tatum and Brown win or lose. Those two have a ton of fight in them
 

Dthomp

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This Celtics vs Heat series is going to be interesting. I think Boston stands a little sturdier in this matchup. They’ve been through more trails as a team past three years and should have more fuel to drive them past the Heat

But at the same time, Jimmy Butler doesn’t seem like he will budge, Dragic is a veteran who wont back down an inch as well. Bam is tough, highly skilled and agile as fuck for his size. Then you have all these three point shooters who have no fear of hoisting one up

I think it’ll come down to defensive intensity, and sort of like for the Raptors, dependent on one player of the teams that underperforms. I think this is the series that will end up shaping Tatum and Brown win or lose. Those two have a ton of fight in them
Kemba gonna prove his talents this series and carry the Cs to the finals! I just hope that they don't rush Gordon back, if he's ready great, insert him into the 2nd or 3rd unit since I haven't been a fan of our bench all season. Celtic fans love to cheer the lesser talents on the team and talk them up, but our bench can be beyond awful on any given night. All my hopes are we can land a legit center in the offseason. Theis is nice, but he's not the answer, and we need better then Wannamaker off the bench at a position I think there are plenty better options out there. Maybe Gordon reworks his game since he played Point forward this season and takes on the ball handling roll as I'd rather it in his hands then either Brad or Smart if it isn't in Kembas in a playmaking sequence.
 
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Hinedorf

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Kemba gonna prove his talents this series and carry the Cs to the finals! I just hope that they don't rush Gordon back, if he's ready great, insert him into the 2nd or 3rd unit since I haven't been a fan of our bench all season. Celtic fans love to cheer the lesser talents on the team and talk them up, but our bench can be beyond awful on any given night. All my hopes are we can land a legit center in the offseason. Theis is nice, but he's not the answer, and we need better then Wannamaker off the bench at a position I think there are plenty better options out there. Maybe Gordon reworks his game since he played Point forward this season and takes on the ball handling roll as I'd rather it in his hands then either Brad or Smart if it isn't in Kembas in a playmaking sequence.
It's not just one big that's going to make a difference. Tatum is still too skinny and the rest of the roster is B's and C's. If you don't have two A's you got nothing. Gordon continues to look like a mistake and the question of this series is Kemba an A,B, or C. Against the Raptors he was a C-.

Need to put a trade package together for a legit A. Give up the whole roster minus Tatum for Giannis similar to what the Lakers did for AD. That's just my opinion on what I think Boston needs, I hope you continue to fail downwards for decades to come :messenger_heart:
 
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EruditeHobo

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When the Celtics are flying around on d and hitting threes and Tatum is doing his number 1 option thing, they are pretty damn good. I just wonder if they can do it over the course of a full series against the remaining teams.

Doing pretty well against the Heat right now, but it's likely going to be another kind of opponent in the finals.
 
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Lionel Richie

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What a play by Bam to FUCKING STEAL THAT GAME. Stevens needs to sort out the late game execution, it can't be all iso. Why is Kemba going one on one on fucking Jae Crowder of all people? I'm not too mad because I think Boston played well overall, we'll see if they do even better in the rest of the series.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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Remove the 3 point line.

Nuggets are playing a shooting game at the fair (and losing) because they can't sink wide open 3s. It feels so cheap.
 
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Hinedorf

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Tyler Herro has no fear out there. 20 year old rookie playing like a veteran, better than most at that
Agree balls on that kid like he's done it a thousand times. That's the impressive thing about the shooting of the Heat, not a single shooter looks hesitant when going for it, the second it hits their fingers whoever is there jacks it up no question. The whole teams shooting confidence is scary right now.
 

Hinedorf

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9 and half minutes left in the game Kawhi w/14pts and Paul/10pts. Is it fair to say the Raptors team carried Kawhi more than Kawhi carried the Raptors much in the same sense in Kawhi's first championship run he was a 10pts a game role player with the Spurs.

Playoff P and Confusing Kawhi
 
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Cutty Flam

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Hope them workers at the bubble are preparing Doc and Clippers’ tackle boxes, polish off the fishing poles boys
 
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Hinedorf

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Good thing they rested Kawhi so many games in the regular season so he'd be ready for when it counts. As somebody who put money on the Clippers I'm extremely disappointed in them but I also feel like this is the self fulfilling prophecy of my life for having mocked the Clippers an entire lifetime and then suddenly believe they're anything other than choke job losers.

I'm not mad, it's a cross between shocked and disappointed. Losing a bet is one thing, watching a supremely better team with a 3-1 lead drop curl up like a ball just wow.

Heard it this morning including tonight I believe this is the THIRD TIME Doc Rivers has lost a series up 3-1
 
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EruditeHobo

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Sign all the free agents you want... Clippers are still the Clippers. Absolutely delicious. Look at Ballmer with his fucking Clips mask on hahahaha!

Kudos to Denver, who will probably win the title if they keep playing like this.
 
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