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Negative reviews on Paradox Interactive games because of price increases
- Thread starter TheVoidDragon
- Start date
The price hike itself happened a while ago, it's just exploding now because paradox just released two new DLCs for both HoI4 and EU4 a few days ago, neither of which contains a great deal of content. Anger against their business practises has been boiling under the surface for a long time within the paradox community, and there's grumbling about it frequently.
I see, I hope this situation actually changes Paradox' practices.
EUIV's dlc alone costs 300 with no discounts, Absolutely insane.
Okay, looking over the actual data on this, the price increases seem to be focussed on currencies which have lost value versus the Euro in the past few years (with Paradox obviously accounting in Euros). As an example, the Ruble has lost approximately 32% of its value to the Euro since EU4 launched. As far as I can tell, it has been selling at the same 699 Ruble price from launch until today's price increase. Even after the price increase, it's still at an almost 50% discount compared to people buying in Euros.
Looking at their main games, this seems to be a recurring theme; prices have gone up alongside exchange rates, but are still heavily discounted outside the Eurozone. In fact, checking EU4, HoI4, Stellaris, CKII, Cities: Skylines, Pillars of Eternity, and a variety of DLC, I haven't found a single situation where Paradox are charging any other region more than they charge in the Eurozone, and the countries with the biggest price increases still seem to have the largest savings versus Euros. While I understand it's annoying, I can't muster up all that much sympathy when you're still able to buy these games for a lot less than I'd have to pay.
Basically this is just inflation. If you don't like it, give out to your government and central bank. It'll do a lot more good than complaining about video game prices on the internet.
EU4 has 11 expansions and CKII has 13, the rest are cosmetic or music additions. For games that have been out almost 4 years and over 5 years respectively it's not completely crazy, although it would be nice if they bundled up some of the older DLC to make things simpler for new buyers.
I think you severely underestimate the amount that gets added to Paradox games over time (which is easy to do, given how long many of their games have been out and how many patches they've had over that time). You can actually go back and play the 1.0 versions of EU4 and CKII using Steam's betas feature, and you'd be amazed at how much basic functionality is missing from them that we take for granted playing on current versions.
Games probably should just be sold at sale price all year round, but that's not the pricing paradigm that the PC industry has settled on, which is to have a higher base price combined with regular sales. As the majority of people buy older PC games on sale I think it's entirely appropriate to talk about sale prices, as that's what most buyers will actually be paying.
Some worthwhile features are gated behind DLC, but that's pretty much inevitable, as otherwise nobody would actually buy the DLC. Even if you completely ignore the DLC, though, the amount of support that Paradox gives its games is well beyond any comparable developer. As I mentioned to Crab above, you can play the 1.0 versions of their games on Steam, and if you compare them to the DLC-disabled latest builds you'd be amazed at how much has changed. The only similar level of support over such a long term I can think of is games like Minecraft and Terraria, which have a larger audience than most Paradox games by an order of magnitude or two.
Looking at their main games, this seems to be a recurring theme; prices have gone up alongside exchange rates, but are still heavily discounted outside the Eurozone. In fact, checking EU4, HoI4, Stellaris, CKII, Cities: Skylines, Pillars of Eternity, and a variety of DLC, I haven't found a single situation where Paradox are charging any other region more than they charge in the Eurozone, and the countries with the biggest price increases still seem to have the largest savings versus Euros. While I understand it's annoying, I can't muster up all that much sympathy when you're still able to buy these games for a lot less than I'd have to pay.
Basically this is just inflation. If you don't like it, give out to your government and central bank. It'll do a lot more good than complaining about video game prices on the internet.
EU4 has 11 expansions and CKII has 13, the rest are cosmetic or music additions. For games that have been out almost 4 years and over 5 years respectively it's not completely crazy, although it would be nice if they bundled up some of the older DLC to make things simpler for new buyers.
I think you severely underestimate the amount that gets added to Paradox games over time (which is easy to do, given how long many of their games have been out and how many patches they've had over that time). You can actually go back and play the 1.0 versions of EU4 and CKII using Steam's betas feature, and you'd be amazed at how much basic functionality is missing from them that we take for granted playing on current versions.
Games probably should just be sold at sale price all year round, but that's not the pricing paradigm that the PC industry has settled on, which is to have a higher base price combined with regular sales. As the majority of people buy older PC games on sale I think it's entirely appropriate to talk about sale prices, as that's what most buyers will actually be paying.
Some worthwhile features are gated behind DLC, but that's pretty much inevitable, as otherwise nobody would actually buy the DLC. Even if you completely ignore the DLC, though, the amount of support that Paradox gives its games is well beyond any comparable developer. As I mentioned to Crab above, you can play the 1.0 versions of their games on Steam, and if you compare them to the DLC-disabled latest builds you'd be amazed at how much has changed. The only similar level of support over such a long term I can think of is games like Minecraft and Terraria, which have a larger audience than most Paradox games by an order of magnitude or two.
You really want to compare game prices with brazil and say "you can't muster sympathy because we pay a lot less than you", bud?
Pretty substantial here in Canada. Up around 31%. Won't consider PoE at its new price for a long time.
So they essentially doubled the price in some regions. Did the purchasing power double for people in those countries?
Terrible statement.
"It is not the poor company's fault, it's your government. Stop being a conscious consumer, bother your politicians, blame yourself."
Vinter
Member
I only explained why they charged for the dlc's. I did not justify them raising the prices on dlc and base game. Like I have said in other posts, I totally understand that people are pissed about the price increase. Especially when it ends up a lot more expensive in some countries.
Or Paradox can get bent. Enjoy getting $0 instead of $10 or whatever they charged in roubles.
Phrozenflame500
Member
...You understand how cost of living and purchasing power works right?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This is true of CK2. It is much less so for EU4. There are 3 DLC packs which actually matter for EU4 - Art of War, Common Sense, and The Cossacks (and even The Cossacks is only really worth it for what it has enabled for the modding scene). If you have these 3 DLC packs, the difference between that and having all other DLC packs is negligible. I've tested this recently myself. Accordingly, I would quite fairly recommend those three DLCs to a new consumer. The others? They're a waste of your money. And that's a significant amount of money, because that includes:
Wealth of Nations
Conquest of Paradise
Res Publica
El Dorado
Mare Nostrum (the clear worst rip-off)
Rights of Man
Mandate of Heaven
The Third Rome
all of which are trivial in what they actually add. I barely notice their absence.
spindoctor
Member
Your opinion on this situation is now completely worthless.
michaelius
Banned
Yeah but in this case Apple takes the blame for developers since decision is global. Also when everything goes up in price then status quo is maintained against competing products.
Edit: I'd like to apologise for this and the previous post, I was being unnecessarily personal and insensitive. Although I live in a country with high average wages, it also has very high living expenses, and as I'm only working part-time (after a period of unemployment) I'm perhaps being over-sensitive to my own difficulties and not properly considering others. Once again I apologise, and I'll recuse myself from this thread.
Red Arremer
Member
Both Crab and I have played Paradox games very often (and I am a stream moderator for one of the designers on EU4 as well). I'm well aware of how much content Paradox adds to their games in their patches, and I've played the EU series since its first installment.
The thing is though, that a lot of the gated DLC eventually becomes the base for new mechanics. So some of the DLC is absolutely required if you don't want to play the game on an older patch (and expecting newcomers to the game to play on an outdated version seems iffy to me).
Province development, again, has become so massively intertwined with how the game works that EU4 in its current state is about as close to being unplayable without Common Sense as it gets. Not being able to develop your land gives you massive disadvantages to playing the game on a current patch in how it works.
Of course DLC has to be made worthwhile, but the problem is that some of the DLC is, if not outright required, at the very least the game is heavily gimped without it. Sure, you can play just fine without having a Prussian monarchy or leader traits, but playing without, for instance, estates or vassal interaction, mechanics that are exceedingly important to play the game, just damages the enjoyment you can get out of the game.
Furthermore, let's be frank here, compared to the base price, the DLC and what they offer inspected on their own just are completely out of whack.
Half the price of the base game for a DLC that contains a few religious mechanics, a few additional diplomatic options and additional modifiers on rulers? Because Rights of Man does cost 20€ compared to EU4's base price of 40€.
A lot of Paradox' customer base begrudgingly accepted the inflated pricing of their DLCs -because- Paradox was supporting their game extremely well. Very few people thought the prices were fair, but we gave Paradox the benefit of the doubt because they are, overall, a very good publisher/dev who are willing to listen to their fans and very much in touch with them.
And that's only touching on actual content DLCs. The Plantoid DLC for Stellaris costs a whopping 8€ for what is essentially a little bit of art and a few ship models.
This simply doesn't make sense. The price hike simply is going to scare away potential customers. And the losses they're making out of this are very likely going to outweigh the gains. I can't see people who were reluctant to purchase Paradox titles based on the suffocating amounts of DLC are going to do it now.
Oh, you're just trolling. Should have told me from the start.
To be fair to Thraktor, he actually put up a valid argument, while you've been hostile to him from the start. Constructive criticism towards the points are best; don't attack the poster.
I can understand Paradox's justifications for upping the prices, but I think they went a tad overboard for "price adjustments". That aside, they need to rework their business strategy regarding DLCs. Perhaps make the base game and a few of the first DLCs free?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I did terrible things to earn my tag.
The day it happened steamdb showed they've increased the prices of their games in most regions. Not as much price adjustment as preparing for the incoming sale and tricking people. I guess doing it a few days before was too suspicious.
If it was really price adjustment they wouldn't have dramatically increased the price in Russia and Brazil. Hell, they've even increased the price here in Canada.
Pure greed.
If it was really price adjustment they wouldn't have dramatically increased the price in Russia and Brazil. Hell, they've even increased the price here in Canada.
Pure greed.
The game almost doubled its price during a political and economic turmoil and Paradox justified it with "eh, your purchasing power increased... somehow"
Please enlighten me about his valid argument that Paradox is right for "increasing the game just a bit" and how that is actually okay because he used to pay more than russians
The post was only directed to him because he made sure to make it about himself with his last statement.
EDIT: He edited his post and apologized, no need to pursue this argument any further.
I mean, they've hiked the prices pretty much everywhere right before the Steam sale. Seems like a decent justification to be irritated. Can spin it all they want but they know fully well the Steam sale is next week and will no doubt be part of it - certainly can't say they weren't aware of it.
Red Arremer
Member
RodrigoDorta
Member
Bethesda even reduced their base prices last week in Brazil. I for instance havent bought stelaris because it was too expensive for me.
I honestly dont know anyone here that has more money now than 2 or 3 years ago.
StereoVsn
Member
No, that's bulshit. They are increasing prices on games that are quite old. In addition as described a few times above, those free patches actually screw the game up for you if you don't have appropriate DLCs.
It is not normal for a publisher to hike up prices for old games and DLC, its Paradox trying to rip off their customer base. I was already tired of constant DLC bullshit despite really likening EUIV and CK2. I also unfortunately bought unfinished Stellaris and I refuse to pay for DLC to finish that game.
Personally as a very long time Paradox customer who has been playing their games since EU2, this move made me less likely to purchase their games or content in the future, period. And this move doesn't really affect me all that much since I am in US. But between these shitty policies and their DLC shenanigans Paradox is now on my low list for Steam 75% sales or not buying their stuff at all. Meh.
TheVoidDragon
Member
They release their games in a pretty unfinished state and even acknowledge that things aren't as good as they should be at launch. I don't think doing that and 'fixing' their games with overpriced DLC and "It'll do for now, i suppose" updates is the right approach.
general consensus on EU4 is that you need at least 3 DLC packs to get the proper game experience ($95 total, or currently $36 on sale)
also base game content actually getting REMOVED by patch if you don't own the new DLC is pretty much the opposite of doing things right. correct me if im wrong, i'm only going by what i researched when i was considering a purchase recently
ronaldthump
Member
I dont see why they don't deseerve the negative reviews: old games should have prices going down - not up just because. It's greed disguised as business practices and this is anti-consumer.
They deserve eveything that's happening with the reviews.
They deserve eveything that's happening with the reviews.
Because I have too much time on my hands I made a table:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FN_lahpNpd0fyTbzaEdwf-S9eETfuqxpC6uiLn6na_g/edit?usp=sharing
It shows the price increase for Europa Universalis IV Extreme Edition and the exchange rates weighted for purchasing power.
It's a bit rough but the end result is the price change "in real terms" in USD.
Japan's purchasing power has decreased and it still saw a price hike, so that puts paid to that excuse.
Russia, Mexico, South Africa, South America in general all got shafted.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FN_lahpNpd0fyTbzaEdwf-S9eETfuqxpC6uiLn6na_g/edit?usp=sharing
It shows the price increase for Europa Universalis IV Extreme Edition and the exchange rates weighted for purchasing power.
It's a bit rough but the end result is the price change "in real terms" in USD.
Japan's purchasing power has decreased and it still saw a price hike, so that puts paid to that excuse.
Russia, Mexico, South Africa, South America in general all got shafted.
Stiler
Member
That is not how the market works...
When have you seen a new game go UP in retail price when it's like 5 years older? Games , like most massed produced goods, go down in value the older they get.
Would you expect games on gog.com, etc to sell for above their retail price when they were newly released???
TheVoidDragon
Member
I didn't realize that the increase in some places was quite that significant, it's nearly doubled in price in India and Russia.
mindatlarge
Member
Damn, Pillars of Eternity is getting hammered. Poor Obsidian.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/291650/Pillars_of_Eternity/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/291650/Pillars_of_Eternity/
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Wow, that is really lame.
Not like being a stream moderator for a person that eventually joined Paradox and adds moderators based on their skill at beating certain games means anything.
Published by Paradox.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
That was obvious before my post. Still lame af.
Mob mentality at it's finest. Attack everything paradox without regard.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I assume this decision was at least partially influenced by their ipo. They're definitely not hurting for cash in general.
Red Arremer
Member
He does feature streams of upcoming expansions, and generally streams a lot of EU4 (not as much as he used to, but still). I've been there since very early in his streaming career and have been actively participating in his stream chat, which is full of EU4 players and often talks about the game's mechanics.
The poster I quoted was implying that I don't have any idea how EU4 looked like in its early iterations, or that I don't know what's going into Paradox's patches, when in fact I do, as I have played the game since very early on, its predecessors, and have watched the streams of a skilled player and designer on the game.
But obviously it's not that important, which is why I put it in parenthesis.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Although we highly recommend getting art of war and common sense, the 1.0 game was worth purchasing, and patches have made it much better. They added features for free with every update, they didn't remove them. I recall there was one edge case where some minor functionality was hindered after an update because they changed the way it worked, but that was the exception not the rule.
spindoctor
Member
Yeah, hopefully a few people will look at that chart to understand the effect of this price increase. It sometimes feels like people shrug off the issue because price increases are an inevitability in life.
If for example you live in the USA, how would you feel if your regular $60 game suddenly started costing $120? I doubt many people would happily accept it. That's what has happened here, except it's in countries with different currencies.
Meh, I don't mind it. But I also disagree with this post (not CDPR though, love them):
I know, I have a 2-year-sub badge after all. Just wanted to point out that being a moderator for him is nothing special and doesn't mean too much. That you are knowledgeable and not unknown should be clear to regular EU4 viewers on Twitch.
And that Thraktor has chosen the wrong people to argue with was pretty clear early on, in my opinion at least.
Red Arremer
Member
Fair enough, and yeah, I tacked on an edit to my response to you, but again, I put it in parenthesis because I thought it was worth a mention albeit not as important, hence the parenthesis.
superdeluxe
Member
Have had my eye on CKII and EUIV for years, but never pulled the trigger. Always thought I'll get them down the road sometime during a sale, but guess not anymore :-(
Just wait for a 60-80% sale where you can get base game and DLC package
Red Arremer
Member
The DLCs generally only go on a 50% sale, unless they're really old I think.
In many ways enforcing price parity based on purchasing power is sensible.
Knowing you can buy a product for the same value regardless of country is useful to a lot of problem.
The biggest flaw is ghat countries rise and fall at different rates. If they were updating prices monthly it would aggravate customers. But they waited a few years and that's acceptable.
I find it strange how they are getting poor reviews from people who got it before the price increase.
There has to be more to it because most people let alone gamers are not empathic and altruistic.
Knowing you can buy a product for the same value regardless of country is useful to a lot of problem.
The biggest flaw is ghat countries rise and fall at different rates. If they were updating prices monthly it would aggravate customers. But they waited a few years and that's acceptable.
I find it strange how they are getting poor reviews from people who got it before the price increase.
There has to be more to it because most people let alone gamers are not empathic and altruistic.
StereoVsn
Member
That's correct and with the increased prices, the overall cost goes up. Plus, really, there are a lot of DLCs and most of them give you very few benefits considering $20 reatail cost. Like look at "Mandate of Heaven", it's $28 retail for DLC and the unit graphics for a few benefits. It shouldnt be more then $10-12 altogether, yet here we are.
Edit: I just think its amusing that they are jacking up prices on old games. I just can't see the long term benefits since they appear to be pissing off their playerbase. I am sure they think they have it worked out from overall financial point of view but I can't help but think that this is going to backfire, badly. Hell, it already is backfiring since Steam reviews in "Red" levels basically stop majority of people from buying or seriously making them think about it.
Edit: Oh yeah, PoE, Tyranny, and HoI4 did go up in price. Now PoE has Mostly Negative reviews and Tyranny is down to mixed, CK2 and EU4 are "Mostly Negative" and HoI4 is down to Mixed. Paradox are insane if they think this shit will fly. It would have made sense to start with new games (as Bethesda learned with Skyrim paid mods debacle).
Edit 2: I was thinking of buying Tyranny and HoI4 in the summer Steam sales along with some EUIV, CK2 and Stellaris DLCs. That's a nope now, there is 0 chance I am going to support Paradox. I am regretting supporting PoE2 through FIG now.