Neil deGrasse Tyson sexual misconduct allegations...

Dec 18, 2010
7,778
467
580
51
washington d.c.
An accusation is not evidence.
It actually is in terms of legality, but it is rarely enough by itself to convict anyone in the absence of physical evidence. Accusations fall under the umbrella of eyewitness testimony, but it isn’t evidence until an actual police report is filed. But even without a police report there’s enough weight to this accusation for the companies involved to begin their own investigation.

These women I don’t think are looking to go to court or seek out jail time and have their story under scrutiny. It’s enough to convict someone now in the court of public opinion, and they get paid from settlements from the companies involved.
 
Last edited:
Apr 25, 2009
5,014
4,321
700
Australia
It actually is in terms of legality, but it is rarely enough by itself to convict anyone in the absence of physical evidence. Accusations fall under the umbrella of eyewitness testimony, but it isn’t evidence until an actual police report is filed. But even without a police report there’s enough weight to this accusation for the companies involved to begin their own investigation.

These women I don’t think are looking to go to court or seek out jail time and have their story under scrutiny. It’s enough to convict someone now in the court of public opinion, and they get paid from settlements from the companies involved.
Doesn't an eyewitness testimony have to be from someone other than the accuser? Where's @phisheep when you need him?

This isn't a dig at you specifically, but I'm getting really tired of the term "court of public opinion" getting thrown around like it should have any weight.
 
Dec 18, 2010
7,778
467
580
51
washington d.c.
Doesn't an eyewitness testimony have to be from someone other than the accuser? Where's @phisheep when you need him?

This isn't a dig at you specifically, but I'm getting really tired of the term "court of public opinion" getting thrown around like it should have any weight.
Court of public opinion does have weight though, arguably more than the legal ramifications of his actions. If your reputation is damaged by sexual assault allegations you’re not going to get hired by anyone, particularly someone who’s a public figure and represents companies.
 
Apr 25, 2009
5,014
4,321
700
Australia
Court of public opinion does have weight though, arguably more than the legal ramifications of his actions. If your reputation is damaged by sexual assault allegations you’re not going to get hired by anyone, particularly someone who’s a public figure and represents companies.
But that doesn’t make it right. Civilised society is founded on overcoming base human urges, and giving credence to the “court of public opinion” falls under that in my view. In fact, the Western legal system is designed to limit how much influence public opinion can have. We should be aware that it exists but not accept it as any kind of authority.
 
Dec 18, 2010
7,778
467
580
51
washington d.c.
But that doesn’t make it right. Civilised society is founded on overcoming base human urges, and giving credence to the “court of public opinion” falls under that in my view. In fact, the Western legal system is designed to limit how much influence public opinion can have. We should be aware that it exists but not accept it as any kind of authority.
I’m not saying it’s right, it just is. Human nature.
 
Feb 1, 2017
3,555
1,101
355
...kept a list of what he deemed "overweight actresses" on his phone..
How misogynist of him. Curiously publicly mocking Weinsteins body or Trump's penis shape is quite acceptable.

If a women is attracted to a guy, without the guy knowing, she is much more likely to accept more a flirtatious or aggressive introduction than she would be from someone she is not attracted to...
Heck, large portion of US couples met at work, how on earth were they supposed to do that, without, oh dear...

There is a need for new ways for humans to get into relationships.

. Non-Chads are encourage to "never give up" and "shoot for the stars".
"Never give up" would be appropriate if we would see repeated moves. By nowadays standards a single move is enough.

I"ll remain quite plainly neutral until its investigated by the authorities
It is not investigated by the authorities. And I'm pretty sure any prosecutor getting this case, if it gets so far, will be quite upset.
 
Last edited:
Likes: matt404au
Feb 1, 2017
3,555
1,101
355
...once you see that its multiple women...
When things happen against celebrities, after getting into news, that concept doesn't work well:
Driver Who Picked Up Woman Accusing Ronaldo Of Rape Speaks Out

..they have no real reason to lie...
Having no real reason is not a reason not to:
Jury orders blogger to pay $8.4 million to ex-Army colonel she accused of rape
Cops: White teen who accused 3 black men of kidnap, rape, confesses to hoax


ps

Dayum, what a user name!

Numbers don't matter.
They do, but so does context/when/how/why/who.
 
Last edited:
Likes: matt404au
Jul 26, 2018
119
117
190
This story bums me out. Like with Louis CK. People I admired and looked up to.

I believe in not guilty until proven innocent, but the Watson story sort of made me lose faith. At a certain point, the anecdotal stories just paint a grim picture. I guess it's possible that NDT is abusing his power by cheating and seducing women, and not a rapist. Him being a sexual harasser doesn't automatically mean that he is guilty of the most serious accusation, but as I said - It just paints a grim picture when you look at it together. Most people who put two and two together are not gonna spare a lot of effort to consider other possibilities.



Black Science Man, you have failed us.
 
Jan 25, 2018
1,854
2,075
255
29
Southeastern USA
This story bums me out. Like with Louis CK. People I admired and looked up to.

I believe in not guilty until proven innocent, but the Watson story sort of made me lose faith. At a certain point, the anecdotal stories just paint a grim picture. I guess it's possible that NDT is abusing his power by cheating and seducing women, and not a rapist. Him being a sexual harasser doesn't automatically mean that he is guilty of the most serious accusation, but as I said - It just paints a grim picture when you look at it together. Most people who put two and two together are not gonna spare a lot of effort to consider other possibilities.



Black Science Man, you have failed us.
He is at most guilty of trying to put the moves on a lady.

Which.... isn't really a problem? (maybe for him and his wife, but not the outside world) He didn't take it any farther than giving her an "Indian handshake" (as in they touched hands) and he let her go, he did what he was supposed to do.

As I said before, being made to feel a little uncomfortable does not instantly mean you were harassed.

The rape accusation is so out of nowhere that it seems highly unlikely.
 
Last edited:
Feb 19, 2014
7,351
504
320
Man. Being a famous dude is just a minefield these days, isn't it?

Presumption of innocence must flow both ways.

If it is illogical to presume the accused are guilty of rape without evidence, then it is also illogical to presume the accuser is guilty of making false allegations without evidence.
This is dumb. He doesn't have to prove she's lying since he's not the accuser. She has to prove he's lying. That's fundamental. If I say you're a goddamn idiot then it's not on you to prove you aren't: it's on me to prove you are, and until I do any rational person would save judgement.

And if I can't, then boy: I must be a vindictive liar and a real shithead...or just crazy.
 
Dec 22, 2010
1,862
212
525
Man. Being a famous dude is just a minefield these days, isn't it?



This is dumb. He doesn't have to prove she's lying since he's not the accuser. She has to prove he's lying. That's fundamental. If I say you're a goddamn idiot then it's not on you to prove you aren't: it's on me to prove you are, and until I do any rational person would save judgement.

And if I can't, then boy: I must be a vindictive liar and a real shithead...or just crazy.
"She must be lying" without any evidence to support that claim is not a logical position to hold. People during the metoo movement have constantly talked about the need for evidence based accusations, which they should. Assuming women are being manipulative and deceitful as a default stance until proven otherwise is just as bad.
 
Jan 25, 2018
1,854
2,075
255
29
Southeastern USA
Rape and sexual assault is simply a hard to prove crime, especially years after the fact.

It's some tricky business, but we simply can't have a society where innocent until proven guilty dies.

For starters, people have got to start reporting on incidents immediately, no more waiting until years or even decades after the fact.
 
Likes: Teletraan1
Feb 19, 2014
7,351
504
320
"She must be lying" without any evidence to support that claim is not a logical position to hold. People during the metoo movement have constantly talked about the need for evidence based accusations, which they should. Assuming women are being manipulative and deceitful as a default stance until proven otherwise is just as bad.
Without evidence to support a claim it is, in fact, completely logical to believe that the claim is either fabricated or a gross misunderstanding.

Let's run through the full list of possibilities here if he's innocent. She could be manipulative, deceitful, greedy, stupid, crazy, having a psychological episode or any or all of the above. Maybe she was raised in a monastery and they taught her English wrong as a joke. Maybe a parasitic organism inside her head is controlling her. Maybe she's desperate for the money or the fame or the attention. Maybe she gets bonus points for ruining nerd careers.

Step 1 should be proving the accusation, and then the world can take stock of what the hell her problem is...or bury Mr Tyson.
 
Likes: matt404au
Dec 22, 2010
1,862
212
525
Without evidence to support a claim it is, in fact, completely logical to believe that the claim is either fabricated or a gross misunderstanding.

Let's run through the full list of possibilities here if he's innocent. She could be manipulative, deceitful, greedy, stupid, crazy, having a psychological episode or any or all of the above. Maybe she was raised in a monastery and they taught her English wrong as a joke. Maybe a parasitic organism inside her head is controlling her. Maybe she's desperate for the money or the fame or the attention. Maybe she gets bonus points for ruining nerd careers.

Step 1 should be proving the accusation, and then the world can take stock of what the hell her problem is...or bury Mr Tyson.
"She must be lying" is a claim.
 
Jul 1, 2009
16,942
389
735
Greensboro, NC
The view that women aren't capable of lying has got to be the most absurd thing that has emerged from this hysterical movement.
Everyone lies. Accusations should get investigated, but going 100 mph to "fuck this asshole, die, retire" and ruining careers or reputations with nothing proven first is stupid.
 
Likes: Breakage
Dec 3, 2013
15,416
7,444
555
The view that women aren't capable of lying has got to be the most absurd thing that has emerged from this hysterical movement.
Everyone lies. Accusations should get investigated, but going 100 mph to "fuck this asshole, die, retire" and ruining careers or reputations with nothing proven first is stupid.
1692-1693 weeps at the lack of history taught or known in today's propaganda fueled rhetoric.
 
Last edited:
Oct 21, 2018
526
251
180
Rape and sexual assault is simply a hard to prove crime, especially years after the fact.

It's some tricky business, but we simply can't have a society where innocent until proven guilty dies.

For starters, people have got to start reporting on incidents immediately, no more waiting until years or even decades after the fact.
It’s almost as if women only started feeling comfortable talking about the powerful men that have harassed them after we partially left a generations long culture of attacking and demonizing women that accuse someone of rape.

A culture that refuses to fucking die.
 
Sep 4, 2018
1,021
928
225
im not a fan of him calling her crazy and pointing out her crystals or whatever to the public to drive that narrative. NAGL. to me this is textbook abusive behavior, and could even be him trying to retroactively justify any guilt he feels.

"she crazy" is like the oldest trick in the book. i would have more respect for him if he kept his mouth shut and was "i treat these accusations seriously"

dude has huge blind spots. when he is convinced he is right, he shuts down the rational part of his brain. i can easily see him convincing himself he was all good when in fact he did some heinous shit.
 
May 17, 2012
4,957
670
445
Canada
I used to see multiple allegations as where there is smoke there is fire. In a post Kavanaugh world I am going to have to hold judgment until all the facts are out. With how that played out you could change the phrase to where there is smoke there are liars. Admittedly that was a different situation. Activists aren't whipping people into a frenzy over Pluto being declassified a planet like they were with Kavanaugh over a fear he was going to end abortions prompting a number of false accusations with the sole purpose of destroying the nomination. There doesn't seem to be any other clear motivation here.
It will be interesting to see if anything comes from this. It is clear to me that the weaponization of #metoo coupled with rape/sexual assault being one of the most falsely reported crimes is having the opposite effect of the original intent of the movement. Which is a real shame as it started with good intentions. The messaging has been wrong most of the time. Believe all women is a terrible ideology. It should have been listen, investigate, respect.
 
Feb 19, 2014
7,351
504
320
Neutrality is the logical position, not taking a side. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Look, if any of the allegations get proven you can hand me a shovel and I'll dig a grave for his career right alongside you while wearing The Hat of Shame(tm). My investment here lies in the principle of the matter, not the man.

We live in a pretty fucked up society.
 
Oct 21, 2018
526
251
180
Look, if any of the allegations get proven you can hand me a shovel and I'll dig a grave for his career right alongside you while wearing The Hat of Shame(tm). My investment here lies in the principle of the matter, not the man.

We live in a pretty fucked up society.
Yeah, a thread with men making jokes about how hysterical and ugly they think one of the accusers is is pretty fucked.

But historically familiar.
 
Likes: whiskeystrike

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Jun 1, 2009
7,183
70
830
Doesn't an eyewitness testimony have to be from someone other than the accuser? Where's @phisheep when you need him?
You called?

No, In the eyes of the law the (putative) victim or the accuser (who may not necessarily be the same person) is a witness like any other. They have no special status in court, their evidence bears no special weight, and there are no special rules of evidence that apply to them - well, not many anyway.

This is often a source of some bemusement for those who call loudly for the victim's say in what happens in court (and it is a real pest to those of us who accompany victims to court, only to be surrounded by the accused's family in the waiting room). But on the whole it is a sensible rule in the interests of justice.
 
Feb 21, 2018
1,910
1,155
270
To me it seems like NDT just needs to focus on his wife and family and learn that the work enviroment is not a club to pick up mistresses. Taking away the rape allegation (which is the most serious charge and requires receipts) all the guy did was try to seduce some women, and when they rejected him he respectfully moved on. None of these women have said he actually assaulted them or used his position for quid pro quo or ruined their careers.

Also he may have a drinking problem and he should look into that. The latest accuser said he got drunk and made an ass of himself and propositioned her.

So NDT needs to control his drinking to not get shit faced, and worry about his wife and family over trying to get laid at work.
 
Jul 26, 2018
119
117
190
He is at most guilty of trying to put the moves on a lady.

Which.... isn't really a problem? (maybe for him and his wife, but not the outside world) He didn't take it any farther than giving her an "Indian handshake" (as in they touched hands) and he let her go, he did what he was supposed to do.

As I said before, being made to feel a little uncomfortable does not instantly mean you were harassed.

The rape accusation is so out of nowhere that it seems highly unlikely.
I agree that discomfort does not equal sexual harassment, but in the case of Watson. I mean damn. She was basically let go because she was not putting out. That is a misuse of power. As a powerful man, he tried to seduce an assistant. Is that rape? No, but it is sexual harassment and misuse of his power and position. Nobody should be prayed upon by their boss. IMO this is way beyond just discomfort.


I don't think that the case of the Watson and the woman with the arm deserves that NDTs career is ruined. This has already been a massive embarrassment for him. The truly serious accusation is the first womans rape allocation. Which is both the most difficult to prove and also the most questionable due to the nature of the he-said-she-said exchange as well as the decades that have happened since. Some people here are questioning her mental state since she embraced new age crystals and holistic spiritual teachings. I don't think this should discredit her accusation. Truth or not, it deserves to be taken seriously. We don't pass judgment on people until they have been proven guilty, but we certainly also shouldn't brush away peoples accusations because they are weird or strange.

Many testimonials from key witnesses and victims have been wrongly remembered. It is a well-documented fact as we find more and more people who got falsely incarcerated or put on death row due to wrongly-remembered key testimonials. And many of these people who remember things wrongly, or saw things that didn't happen, didn't know. To them it was real. But our brains play tricks on us like that. There was nothing mentally wrong with many of these people.

The innocence project features hundreds of cases of people put behind bars for incorrect DNA and/or witness testimonials from both accusers and secondary witnesses: https://www.innocenceproject.org/cases/ It is pretty alarming stuff and shows how complicated our justice system is. It's why I disagree with people who will always believe the accuser out of principle instead of realizing the complexity of the situation.
 
Likes: whiskeystrike
Apr 25, 2009
5,014
4,321
700
Australia
You called?

No, In the eyes of the law the (putative) victim or the accuser (who may not necessarily be the same person) is a witness like any other. They have no special status in court, their evidence bears no special weight, and there are no special rules of evidence that apply to them - well, not many anyway.

This is often a source of some bemusement for those who call loudly for the victim's say in what happens in court (and it is a real pest to those of us who accompany victims to court, only to be surrounded by the accused's family in the waiting room). But on the whole it is a sensible rule in the interests of justice.
Cheers mate, appreciate the insight.

@Dude Abides this is how you do it.
 
Sep 4, 2018
1,021
928
225
his career is not ruined. it could not be ruined. not in a man's world. even if more evidence comes out, it won't kill his career, he will continue to be able to make a living off giving talks, writing books, being in movies, TV shows, etc. people will cry and scream that he's being chased out of town. look at Louis C.K., he waited less than a year and is playing to packed audiences. people don't care.

academia is an industry that protects it's own like any other. he'll get hit hardest in his entertainment gigs. perhaps he will miss out on some lucrative opportunities, be the sacrificial cow for a few companies looking for easy PR. at this point i feel like when big companies hire people w sketchy pasts, it is a sort of insurance, they can trot out as an excuse to fire the person, making the company look like the good guys. it sucks but when you are playing that game, that's the game you're playing.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2018
619
373
215
Speaking of deGrasse, have you guys watched his old series on Netflix? I only got through a few episodes. Great shows, but oddly executed.

They are informative and fun as always, since deGrasse has a good way of explaining things in a fun way, but the production values are bottom of the barrel. And since it seems a lot of his chat is done in one continuous shot, he does his best explaining things, but sometimes he has to pause and think about what to say next, which is kind of funny.
 
Last edited: