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"Nelson Mandela betrayed blacks in South Africa"

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Ripclawe

Banned
Say his murdering ex wife winnie. Why the fuck is this monster being honored here in America over "Bloody Sunday?" The original interview is at the first link, daily mail with a recap.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...on-mandela-betrayed-us-says-ex-wife-winnie.do

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...-President-betraying-blacks-South-Africa.html

Nelson Mandela has been accused by his former wife of betraying South Africa's black population.

In a savage attack, Winnie Mandela said he had done nothing for the poor and should not have accepted the Nobel peace prize with the man who jailed him, FW de Klerk.

The 73-year-old said her ex-husband had become a 'corporate foundation' who was 'wheeled out' only to raise money for the ANC party he once led.

She said Archbishop Desmond Tutu was a cretin and claimed the sacrifices of Steve Biko and others in the fight against apartheid were being overlooked.

The comments were made in an interview yesterday with Nadira Naipaul, the wife of novelist V S Naipaul.

Mrs Mandela became notorious in 1991 when she was jailed for six years for the kidnap of Stompie Moeketsi - a sentence later cut to a fine.

Stompie, 14, had been murdered three years earlier by members of Mrs Mandela's bodyguard, the Mandela United Football Club.

She also caused outrage by endorsing the punishment of apartheid collaborators with ' necklacing' - putting burning tyres around their necks.


Yesterday she said: 'This name Mandela is an albatross around the necks of my family.

'You all must realise that Mandela was not the only man who suffered. There were many others, hundreds who languished in prison and died.

'Mandela did go to prison and he went in there as a young revolutionary but look what came out.

'Mandela let us down. He agreed to a bad deal for the blacks. Economically we are still on the outside. The economy is very much "white".


'I cannot forgive him for going to receive the Nobel with his jailer de Klerk. Hand in hand they went. Do you think de Klerk released him from the goodness of his heart?

'He had to. The times dictated it, the world had changed.'

The Mandelas, who divorced in 1996, were married for 38 years - although together for only five.

Mrs Mandela criticised her country's Truth and Reconciliation Committee - which she appeared before in 1997 and which implicated her in gross violations of human rights.

She said: 'What good does the truth do? How does it help to anyone to know where and how their loved ones are killed or buried?

'That Bishop Tutu who turned it all into a religious circus came here. He had a cheek to tell me to appear.

'I told him that he and his other like-minded cretins were only sitting there because of our struggle and me. Look what they make him do. The great Mandela. He has no control or say any more.

'They put that huge statue of him right in the middle of the most affluent white area of Johannesburg. Not here [in Soweto] where we spilled our blood.

'Mandela is now like a corporate foundation. He is wheeled out globally to collect the money.'

She said her daughters, Zenani, 51, and Zindzi, 50, had to struggle through red tape to speak to their 91-year-old father, who led South Africa from 1994 to 1999.

Again..


In the late Eighties, Winnie's thuggish bodyguards, the Mandela United Football Club, terrorised Soweto. Club "captain" was Jerry Richardson, who died in prison last year while serving life for the murder of Stompie Moeketsi, a 14-year-old who was kidnapped with three other boys and beaten in the home where we would soon sit, sipping coffee. Winnie was sentenced to six years for kidnap, which was reduced to a fine on appeal.

Members of the gang would later testify to South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission that Winnie had ordered the torture, murder and kidnap of her own people, and even participated directly.

Don't give me any ridiculous story that it was the sign of the times, this is an evil person.
 
Winnie Mandela is absolute scum, someone should have offed her years ago.
Pretty much the worst decision Nelson Mandela ever made in his life was marrying Winnie, even he probably realizes that.
 
ElectricBlue187 said:
Rosa Parks didn't do nothin but sit her black ass down
I got in so much trouble for saying this in my urban highschool during history. I put it in more of a jerry seinfeld way though.
 
1. Highlight bad things that person did.
2. Highlight statements made by the same person, that you agree with.
3. ???
4. Profit!
 
"Nelson Mandela spent twenty seven years in a South African prison, got beaten and tortured every day for twenty seven years, and did it with no fucking problem. Made to do hard labor in hundred degrees South African heat for twenty seven years and did it with no problem. He got outta jail after twenty seven years of torture, spent 6 months with his wife and say I can't take this shit no more!"
--Chris Rock
 
adamsappel said:
"Nelson Mandela spent twenty seven years in a South African prison, got beaten and tortured every day for twenty seven years, and did it with no fucking problem. Made to do hard labor in hundred degrees South African heat for twenty seven years and did it with no problem. He got outta jail after twenty seven years of torture, spent 6 months with his wife and say I can't take this shit no more!"
--Chris Rock
:lol :lol :lol
 
OpinionatedCyborg said:

I'll respond just to keep my streak going.

In all seriousness, she's a complete lunatic, and Desmond Tutu is awesome and should get some more love.
 
I thought this was going to be a hyperbolic criticism of Mandela for supporting Zuma in the most recent election, but this...this is beyond ridiculously crazy.
 
GrotesqueBeauty said:
Moral of the story: Even Nelson Mandela has a crazy ex.
Given the things he was involved in, I don't think it should be that surprising that he was associated with some crazy people. He wasn't your run-of-the-mill protester when he was arrested.
 
xbhaskarx said:
Winnie Mandela is absolute scum, someone should have offed her years ago.
Pretty much the worst decision Nelson Mandela ever made in his life was marrying Winnie, even he probably realizes that.

I don't even understand how someone like this can exist. It's like she wanted to completely tear apart a nation singlehandedly because she felt like it. It's like I'm just waiting for her to start laughing and say "JUST KIDDING."
 
harSon said:
I'll respond just to keep my streak going.

In all seriousness, she's a complete lunatic, and Desmond Tutu is awesome and should get some more love.

Ok I'll start by saying he did well for his country with the "spiritual" healing of South Africa for letting amiable talks go one between the blacks and whites. T&R committee was needed and but when you look at it objectively it exonerates a lot of the whites in the administration that looked on as apartheid went on. This was necessary in order to skip the violence that would have carried on. Many of the whites ran from the country (but came back for the T&R committee) and left it in the hands of a popular black activist, Mandela. I tend to side with the crowd that thinks the T&R commission makes for a great read and example of restorative justice in poli sci class and was necessary but there was very little amount of real jail time or reprimanding of the whites in the administration by developed nations. Which I think is terrible. But Tutu is cooky, passionate, and deserves what he got.

Mandela on the other hand I really don't know about. My South African family has people on both sides on the importance of his duty in ending apartheid and his jailing. I mean, the guy was a political prisoner and was able to get his law degree while in prison while blacks were dying/being abused on the outside. I don't begrudge him that, but people blow his "torture" way out of proportion. I'm sure he was, but none more so than any other important political prisoner. He helped organize the center of the political movement but as a president he largely failed the country economically and mostly ignored the AIDS epidemic. He is a great guy for enduring the political imprisonment and keeping a peace movement going forward but the cynic in me thinks at the end of the day, he is the white man's feel good story.

Sorry that ending up so long. :D
 
He wouldn't be the only black leader that has abandon blacks in Africa, at least even her will admit anything he may have done (or not done) pales in comparison to some of their atrocities.
 
LQX said:
He wouldn't be the only black leader that has abandon blacks in Africa, at least even her will admit anything he may have done (or not done) pales in comparison to some of their atrocities.
It's odd how you get more incoherent when you talk about black people.
 
Jackson50 said:
I thought this was going to be a hyperbolic criticism of Mandela for supporting Zuma

Right on. Yeah fine, Puzzloop came first, but how many people even knew about that game back wh... oh shit wait...
 
i_am_ben said:
I agree with her statements.
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Dresden said:
It's odd how you get more incoherent when you talk about black people.
It' odd how you would come to that conclusion. And read up on Africa if you think what I said is wrong and you will see I am not.
 
exarkun said:
Mandela on the other hand I really don't know about. My South African family has people on both sides on the importance of his duty in ending apartheid and his jailing. I mean, the guy was a political prisoner and was able to get his law degree while in prison while blacks were dying/being abused on the outside. I don't begrudge him that, but people blow his "torture" way out of proportion. I'm sure he was, but none more so than any other important political prisoner. He helped organize the center of the political movement but as a president he largely failed the country economically and mostly ignored the AIDS epidemic. He is a great guy for enduring the political imprisonment and keeping a peace movement going forward but the cynic in me thinks at the end of the day, he is the white man's feel good story.

He didn't get his law degree in jail; he was a lawyer before he joined the ANC. He wasn't tortured; outside of hard labour and the like primarily in the first half of his imprisonment. He didn't fail the country economically - it was and is quite sound, actually, but wealth disparity is a huge problem (as is poverty, both relative and absolute) and most social welfare programs have been inefficient, when applied at all. Also, it was Mbeki who flew in the face of scientific consensus and understanding of AIDS and refused to believe its link with HIV and its potential for wide-scale damage as a STD, which directly led to the epidemic that tore South Africa apart through much of the last decade.

I think Mandela's biggest failure was supporting Mbeki as his successor. Mbeki was clever, but he wasn't the visionary that was needed. No, he was the safe option and it showed. Mbeki failed to utilize a sound economic base and properly tackle crime and poverty. He was much too conservative on these fronts, for all his socialist pandering. And his performance on AIDS was, again, woeful in the extreme. In the end, his policy decisions led to the deaths of millions.

And now they have Zuma... (Mandela's support there is probably his second largest failure.)
 
Tim the Wiz said:
He didn't get his law degree in jail; he was a lawyer before he joined the ANC. He wasn't tortured; outside of hard labour and the like primarily in the first half of his imprisonment. He didn't fail the country economically - it was and is quite sound, actually, but wealth disparity is a huge problem (as is poverty, both relative and absolute) and most social welfare programs have been inefficient, when applied at all. Also, it was Mbeki who flew in the face of scientific consensus and understanding of AIDS and refused to believe its link with HIV and its potential for wide-scale damage as a STD, which directly led to the epidemic that tore South Africa apart through much of the last decade.

I think Mandela's biggest failure was supporting Mbeki as his successor. Mbeki was clever, but he wasn't the visionary that was needed. No, he was the safe option and it showed. Mbeki failed to utilize a sound economic base and properly tackle crime and poverty. He was much too conservative on these fronts, for all his socialist pandering. And his performance on AIDS was, again, woeful in the extreme. In the end, his policy decisions led to the deaths of millions.

And now they have Zuma... (Mandela's support there is probably his second largest failure.)

Where there is disparity, there is usually a lack of economic resources to those who are struggling. Social programs failing and the poor staying poor (most of those the biggest supporters of Mandela) are to me economic failures. Or at the very least, government oversight. And what is SA's sound economic base? Where are the opportunities for the uneducated, whether they are black or white?

Yeah he was a lawyer before prison (and I think provided counsel to poor blacks) but he didn't get the degree until during imprisonment. http://africanhistory.about.com/od/mandelanelson/a/bio_mandela.htm
So it seems he failed the degree exam but qualified to practice, with getting an LLB (I guess SA or British equivalent of a JD) while in prison.

I don't want to argue semantics (the previous paragraph : p), but I don't like his presidency for the most part. I understand that he was a transitionary president and had to lead a basically new country out of a darker past, but I wish there was more done. The state of blacks in SA is largely related to the points you brought up: social programs failing and a large in gap in economic equality. And I think it started with Mandela but was heavily exacerbated by Mbeki (in agreement with your assessment). Zuma from his history makes me cringe and SA will probably still be in for a rough ride with him. Doesn't he have like 30 children or something like that?
 
harSon said:
You can't say something so loaded without at least backing it up :P

Firstly, obviously I think she's an awful person. :lol

However I agree with her that Mandela just gets wheeled out for events so people can faun over him. The deification of him, deflects legitimate criticism of his relationship with his party (full of fuck wits) and his failures as a president (black SA's still remain shockingly disadvantaged with no hope in site. Well except for the tiny black majority who got propelled into the ecnomic elite through relationships).

She is also correct in saying that the negotiated end of Apartheid did represent a failure of Black SAs to get a good deal. The system was on the precipice of crashing. It simply could not have continued. The negotiated agreement in regards to amnesty (which ultimately took the toothless form of the TRC) robbed victims of justice.


Then there's Tutu. He's a nice guy but Mrs Mandela is 100% correct in saying Tutu turned the TRC into a religious event. Many people found Tutu's views on forgiving perpetrators as patronising.
 
Mandela could of changed things economically but he like other leaders didnt wanna upset the west.

Are black people really better off today then before Mandela?

Oh, they have the right to vote now so no big problem hey. Guess ticking a box every 4 years really does make a big difference in your life.. :)
 
kobashi100 said:
Mandela could of changed things economically but he like other leaders didnt wanna upset the west.

Are black people really better off today then before Mandela?

Oh, they have the right to vote now so no big problem hey. Guess ticking a box every 4 years really does make a big difference in your life.. :)

Not everyone, but a lot are. I said it in the previous thread as well but unemployment during the transitionary time from Apartheid to the ANC was a hair over 50% (the overwhelming majority of which were black), while it now rests somewhere closer to 20%. Each year, there is significant growth to the Black middle class, something that was nonexistent prior to 1994. Many South Africans are still subject to horrifically nasty situations, but it's only been 15 years since the end of apartheid. It's no easy task accommodating historically disenfranchised ethnic groups, lacking in education and training, within a country that was designed to hold ~5-6 million people. I'd agree that the ANC hasn't done as well as it could have, but failure is much to strong of a word.

I'm not really sure what people expected from Mandela in 4 year period. Yes, he appeased to the white minority, but mass white flight in the early stages of the new South Africa would have most likely resulted in certain doom. While unpopular to the masses, it was a necessary move. And Mandela is deserving of blame for the lack of action against AIDS awareness as well, ANC as a whole has been absolute shit in that regard.

I personally think South Africa's biggest failure is basically falling victim to a one party system, it's honestly a pseudo dictatorship.
 
unconcerned said:

what is wrong with me agreeing with her? Does the fact that she is heavily involved in killings mean that her opinions are automatically wrong?

Winnie Mandela says nothing in that article that many other people (including academics) haven't already said.
 
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