NeoGAF FrontPage Discussion: It's all about the Entitlements

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
12,793
917
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#1
Not so much time after Sony, IBM and Toshiba have given the public more than enough details of CELL and its finalized first implementation, the CELL Broadband Engine, it seems as if the hunt for patents at the USPTO's web-site has lost its charm for many of us video-game fans and usually this is when something slips through the cracks. Much of the attention, back when CELL was still relatively a mystery for many, was around CELL or around a possible new GPU and thus it was mostly Hardware-focused. The patent that takes the spotlight with this editorial is not something Sony has dropped from the sky, but a continuation of earlier work and thus earlier patents.
Someone like Chatani Masayuki (Chief Technical Officer, Sony Computer Corporation Inc.), gives us with this patent, a quite realistic and achievable way of changing the game industry and the used game sales market.


READ IT HERE
 
Jun 7, 2004
77,909
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#7
I'm not sure I fully understood that. Is it basically saying Sony is working on making game software something like the Windows discs? They check to see if that unique copy has been played on another system by "phoning home"?
 
Jun 5, 2004
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#9
GhaleonEB said:
I'm not sure I fully understood that. Is it basically saying Sony is working on making game software something like the Windows discs? They check to see if that unique copy has been played on another system by "phoning home"?
Pretty much.


Dear Sony,

Whatever I do with my game that I have purchased is NONE OF YOUR ****ING BUSINESS.

Sincerely,

~Dragona

PS: You better can this idea, chumps.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#11
Basically, if Sony implements this, it will murder the used games market, the rental market, and heck, even letting a friend borrow a game.

I personally don't believe they'll implement this, but if they do, it explains how they plan on providing free online.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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#13
I went through it very quickly, but doesn't this whole system fall apart if a portion of users do not have their PS3's connected to the Internet? I don't think Sony expects a better adoption rate than what MS has, which is about 60%. How would the original owner get "paid" and how would the new owner "unlock" the game?
 
Oct 19, 2005
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#14
White Man said:
Basically, if Sony implements this, it will murder the used games market, the rental market, and heck, even letting a friend borrow a game.

I personally don't believe they'll implement this, but if they do, it explains how they plan on providing free online.
I agree. :)
 
Jun 11, 2006
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#15
GhaleonEB said:
I'm not sure I fully understood that. Is it basically saying Sony is working on making game software something like the Windows discs? They check to see if that unique copy has been played on another system by "phoning home"?
If Sony implements this, it will be great for Nintendo and MS. I've been enjoying watching Sony's train wreck so far, so I say go for it Sony.
 
Sep 20, 2005
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#18
If this ever comes to pass, I will start up a crazed gun-nut militia in the woods.

Who is with me?

At any rate, you could expect this one to be challeneged in court.

I could imagine Phoenix Wright in our corner!
 

Scrow

Still Tagged Accordingly
Jun 6, 2004
16,583
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Australia
#19
Dragona Akehi said:
Dear Sony,

Whatever I do with my game that I have purchased is NONE OF YOUR ****ING BUSINESS.

Sincerely,

~Dragona

PS: You better can this idea, chumps.
except you buy their hardware and software under their conditions.

you may own the game, but you can't do as you please with it. you're not forced to buy their products, but when you do you're buying it under their terms. it is quite literally "their business", in more ways than one.

sucks i know.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Apr 26, 2006
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www.squackle.com
#20
ok, let me see if i understand this.


I buy a game.

I play it for 4 months, and the game is registered to Sony's/publisher's servers as the game belonging to me. I get Entitlements for buying the game or whatever.

I sell it off to gamestop. Next guy buys the game, pops it in, and the game checks the server to check the game disc ID and see what other systems its been played on. Let's say this guy had entitlements, as well, but he would be "double paying" by having to give up some of his entitlements to me/Sony/publisher or all? Which would discourage it because who wants to pay for the same thing twice, just buy the new game?

and what happens if its a really really old game you wanted, is there a period of time which there'll be this "tarriff" tax on putting in used games in your system?
 
Jun 5, 2004
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#21
Scrow said:
except you buy their hardware and software under their conditions.

you may own the game, but you can't do as you please with it. you're not forced to buy their products, but when you do you're buying it under their terms. it is quite literally "their business", in more ways than one.

sucks i know.
That's for ****ing sure.

However, consider this: what if they tried something as insane as this with books or other items? Everyone would cry foul. But after what the MPAA or RIAA has pulled on consumers, no one thinks that consumers have any right when it comes to digital (or even physical) code.

****. THAT. SHIT.

(On a more serious, less paranoid note: I don't think Sony would actually do this.)
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Jun 8, 2004
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#24
The way I understand this, the system simply rewards you for selling and giving your games. If that's all it is, I think that's fine.

I just can't see this being some kind of prohibitive DRM, "unlocking system" or anything like that, as no one can expect game console to mandatory be connected to Internet. That's just not going to happen with PS3. Seems more like something optional/good will on the side of buyer, if he wants you to get some points out of his game purchase from you.
 
Oct 24, 2005
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#25
davepoobond said:
ok, let me see if i understand this.


I buy a game.

I play it for 4 months, and the game is registered to Sony's/publisher's servers as the game belonging to me. I get Entitlements for buying the game or whatever.

I sell it off to gamestop. Next guy buys the game, pops it in, and the game checks the server to check the game disc ID and see what other systems its been played on. Let's say this guy had entitlements, as well, but he would be "double paying" by having to give up some of his entitlements to me/Sony/publisher or all? Which would discourage it because who wants to pay for the same thing twice, just buy the new game?

and what happens if its a really really old game you wanted, is there a period of time which there'll be this "tarriff" tax on putting in used games in your system?
No... the only way you could sell it to GameStop is if GameStop puts the disc in a system belonging to them, then pays Sony's used game fee, of which you would get a percentage (spendable only toward Sony products) determined by Sony. This is the same process you would use selling the game to a friend.

I'm thinking this also means if I want to let my friend borrow a game, he may have to pay a rental fee. Or for that matter, if some rich guy owns two PS3's he may have to pay a fee to play a game on his second system.
 
Jun 5, 2004
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#26
Marconelly said:
The way I understand this, the system simply rewards you for selling and giving your games. If that's all it is, I think that's fine.
The person you're giving it to has to pay "entitlement fees".

If I want to give someone a game, that is MY perogative. Sony can keep their ****ing nose out of my goddamned business.

It's not about piracy or any other shit so much as right to privacy, right to own and right to do whatever the **** I please with something I have purchased.

Digital rights? We don't have any goddamned rights according to people who would implement this.
 

Scrow

Still Tagged Accordingly
Jun 6, 2004
16,583
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Australia
#27
Dragona Akehi said:
That's for ****ing sure.

However, consider this: what if they tried something as insane as this with books or other items? Everyone would cry foul. But after what the MPAA or RIAA has pulled on consumers, no one thinks that consumers have any right when it comes to digital (or even physical) code.

****. THAT. SHIT.

(On a more serious, less paranoid note: I don't think Sony would actually do this.)
yes, well that's kinda the point. as companies screw over customers more and more eventually the customers will boycott their products whether through conscious action or attrition. the company then responds to the decline in customer support by removing that which started the negative reaction.

while customers might feel powerless and at the mercy of the industry and the companies that dominate it, ultimately it is we who control the emergence of these sorts of trends.

don't like this patent from sony? fed up with macro/micro-transactions? bored of gimmicks and waggle wands? then send a message with your buying power (or absence of).
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Apr 26, 2006
44,541
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California
www.squackle.com
#28
BooJoh said:
No... the only way you could sell it to GameStop is if GameStop puts the disc in a system belonging to them, then pays Sony's used game fee, of which you would get a percentage (spendable only toward Sony products) determined by Sony. This is the same process you would use selling the game to a friend.

I'm thinking this also means if I want to let my friend borrow a game, he may have to pay a rental fee. Or for that matter, if some rich guy owns two PS3's he may have to pay a fee to play a game on his second system.
but it could actually discourage the exchange or the amount of money that is traditionally being done in the 2nd hand market currently, instead shifting weight to these Sony points because they're "worth" something as well?
 
Jun 5, 2004
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#29
Scrow said:
yes, well that's kinda the point. as companies screw over customers more and more eventually the customers will boycott their products whether through conscious action or attrition. the company then responds to the decline in customer support by removing that which started the negative reaction.

while customers might feel powerless and at the mercy of the industry and the companies that dominate it, ultimately it is we who control the emergence of these sorts of trends.

don't like this patent from sony? fed up with macro/micro-transactions? bored of gimmicks and waggle wands? then send a message with your buying power.
If only "Buying Power" actually meant something. If it's anything like the last 15 years of digital rights fiasco, consumers will just take it like it was meant to be. With a few dissenting voices that get drowned out by cries of "BUT WE CAN'T LET PIRACY WIN".
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Apr 26, 2006
44,541
157
1,275
California
www.squackle.com
#30
Scrow said:
yes, well that's kinda the point. as companies screw over customers more and more eventually the customers will boycott their products whether through conscious action or attrition. the company then responds to the decline in customer support by removing that which started the negative reaction.

while customers might feel powerless and at the mercy of the industry and the companies that dominate it, ultimately it is we who control the emergence of these sorts of trends.

don't like this patent from sony? fed up with macro/micro-transactions? bored of gimmicks and waggle wands? then send a message with your buying power.
i recently learned this, but despite what we might think, we as the consumer cannot "vote" with "buying power" (money). Companies will make the products they want and sell it how they want, regardless. The same thing happens with film.
 
Oct 24, 2005
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#32
davepoobond said:
but it could actually discourage the exchange or the amount of money that is traditionally being done in the 2nd hand market currently, instead shifting weight to these Sony points because they're "worth" something as well?
The idea is this:

1) You buy a game. Sony makes money.

2) You sell a game to GameStop right now, and they give you some money, spendable at GameStop, or if you choose, cash. You make money.

3) GameStop sells that game to somebody else. GameStop makes money.

Sony essentially is replacing step 2 and 3 here with one nice little condensed step.

2b) You sell a game to a friend. Your friend does not pay you in cash. He puts the game in his system, and the system checks for authorization. If you have authorized the sale, your friend pays a used game price (to Sony) of which you recieve a percentage in entitlement points (spendable only to Sony). Sony makes money x 2.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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#33
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but my interpretation might be a bit different than what some of the above posts are saying:

1. You buy the game for full price, put it in your system, and are registered as the original owner of the disc, with full rights to the software on it.

2. After you play the game for few months, you become tired of it.

3. You give the disc to a friend. He puts it in his system, and it plays as a "demo" game (limited in features, levels, character abilities, etc.).

4. He decides he likes the game so much, he wants to pay for the rights to play the "full" game. Instead of paying you (the original owner) directly, he instead pays a fee through Sony's online service. This fee might be reduced a bit compared to the current retail price (comparable to buying a used game through a retailer).

5. Sony collects this fee, divides it up, and awards a portion to you, another portion to the original publisher or developer of the game, and perhaps keeps a bit for themselves as well.

Am I getting this? If so, then this isn't entirely bad, as it solves one complaint that publishers and developers have had for years: that they don't make any profit from used game sales. I don't see it "killing" the used game business, but rather "transferring" it by cutting out the middleman (the brick-and-mortar retailers that currently sell used games).

Or maybe I've got this all wrong?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
May 30, 2004
41,303
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#34
Scrow: Three words...

First Sale Doctrine. :p

Am I getting this? If so, then this isn't entirely bad, as it solves one complaint that publishers and developers have had for years: that they don't make any profit from used game sales.
That is not a problem that they should have the liberty of "fixing", thank you.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Apr 26, 2006
44,541
157
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California
www.squackle.com
#35
BooJoh said:
The idea is this:

1) You buy a game. Sony makes money.

2) You sell a game to GameStop right now, and they give you some money, spendable at GameStop, or if you choose, cash. You make money.

3) GameStop sells that game to somebody else. GameStop makes money.

Sony essentially is replacing step 2 and 3 here with one nice little condensed step.

2b) You sell a game to a friend. Your friend does not pay you in cash. He puts the game in his system, and the system checks for authorization. If you have authorized the sale, your friend pays a used game price (to Sony) of which you recieve a percentage in entitlement points (spendable only to Sony). Sony makes money x 2.

ahhh okay. hmm.. i don't know what to think of it really.

if you buy a game through gamestop, though, you'd still have to give up more sony points though, right?
 
Jun 9, 2004
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4
1,460
Seattle, WA
#36
BooJoh said:
2b) You sell a game to a friend. Your friend does not pay you in cash. He puts the game in his system, and the system checks for authorization. If you have authorized the sale, your friend pays a used game price (to Sony) of which you recieve a percentage in entitlement points (spendable only to Sony). Sony makes money x 2.
What if I can't find a reta. . .er, I mean friend dumb enough to pay me for Saga Frontier 6?
 

X26

Banned
Mar 12, 2006
17,263
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Canada
#39
Is EB/GameStop's constant preching of used > new backfiring?

Anyways sounds terrible, and if nothing else we won't be seeing this for the PS3
 

Monk

Banned
Jun 19, 2004
4,688
0
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#41
If this ever comes to pass, i am buying any of my games at their release date.

I look forward to decent prices when i try and sell my games to used games stores. Oh and if this is only for the ps3, you will find it very hard for me to get a ps3 at all.
 
Oct 24, 2005
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#43
davepoobond said:
ahhh okay. hmm.. i don't know what to think of it really.

if you buy a game through gamestop, though, you'd still have to give up more sony points though, right?
I think this is the idea. Retailers like GameStop would no longer serve as an effective used game market for these products. Essentially what Sony appears to be aspiring toward is FULL control over the used game market. Rather than eliminate it, they want to force it into their own hands so that used games profit the industry the same way new games do. By paying the seller in points, this also keeps any money you make selling games in the form of Sony points, which will eventually go back to Sony as well.

In the grand scheme of things, Sony and the publishers will be the only ones making money off the used game market with this system.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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#45
This didn't slip through any cracks, I remember there being a huge amount of bickering here about Sony doing this. I think it generally concluded with everyone agreeing that any publisher wants something like this but would be insane to institute it.
 
Oct 24, 2005
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#46
Razoric said:
i never buy used games, rarely rent, never sell the games i have, and have a steady connection to the internet... does this effect me? :p
No.

As long as they implement a method for free transfer of ownership if your console breaks.
 
Jun 6, 2004
33,448
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USA
blog.gattsu25.com
#47
Dragona Akehi said:
I cannot honestly believe people are spinning this.
You're looking at this the wrong way. This is great news, I'm tired of the second hand market cannibalizing sales and causing some very talented developers to close up shop.

If this involves some form of DRM then that's even better, as you're assured that every copy of a game is unique and specific to you. I know I'm getting sick and tired of the poor condition of used (and EB's definition of "new") games

































ugh...this is ****ing bullshit...Sony can suck my taint if they end up using this
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Apr 26, 2006
44,541
157
1,275
California
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#48
BooJoh said:
I think this is the idea. Retailers like GameStop would no longer serve as an effective used game market for these products. Essentially what Sony appears to be aspiring toward is FULL control over the used game market. Rather than eliminate it, they want to force it into their own hands so that used games profit the industry the same way new games do. By paying the seller in points, this also keeps any money you make selling games in the form of Sony points, which will eventually go back to Sony as well.

In the grand scheme of things, Sony and the publishers will be the only ones making money off the used game market with this system.

seems like, in effect, they'll make each individual their own used game store. they'll want to shop out the games as "rentals" or pass along games to friends so they can get sony points rather than lose them, and kill gamestop/eb's powerful second hand market. this is actually quite a marvelous business strategy/idea.
 
Feb 10, 2005
27,194
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Edinburgh, Scotland
twitter.com
#49
When you buy a new game and play it, it gets registrated to you.

You sell it to new owner(he gives you cash, or nothing, that's your deal) but he has to pay a small fee to Sony to be able to play the game(that fee gets distributed three ways, a bit to you, a bit to game publisher/developer and a bit to Sony).

And so forth the chain goes.

But how do you do this offline? I didn't understand that part.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
Jun 6, 2004
37,145
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#50
davepoobond said:
seems like, in effect, they'll make each individual their own used game store. they'll want to shop out the games as "rentals" or pass along games to friends so they can get sony points rather than lose them, and kill gamestop/eb's powerful second hand market. this is actually quite a marvelous business strategy/idea.
i'm sure some countries thought communism was good too