[Netherlands Terrorist Attack] 3 dead, at least 20 injured, police suspects Turkish man, 37.

May 15, 2018
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Integration does work. You just got to hope the founding country gets the good one.
people have to stop with "if it works here it works anywhere". it hasnt worked so far. because you can pick and choose when it does and ignore when it goes wrong. thats some bullshit that i cant ignore is that all cultures get along. they dont and there are clashes. clearly with the violence and disagreement in terms of politics. so some side has to change right? either one side does or the other. i hope you choose the correct side
 

triplestation

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In the end your family, loved ones and country is going to be affected by change whether you like it or not. Like I said above, IMO, the change we're facing is a two-way general path and I think the best outcome for all parts is to be as tolerant and inclusive of different cultures and ways to see the world as possible with all the sacrifices for both sides that that implies including renouncing some aspects of your culture and embracing some other from other cultures. The other option is basically to condemn future generations, including your children, to a full on cultural war that will probably be perpetuated until either one side genocides the other (at which point the winning side will have to face the consequences of committing genocide) or the attrition of battle is such that your precious culture will end up being a soulless sorry imitation of its former self.

That's how I see it if I want to be realistic.
I like you.
 

crowbrow

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They shit up their own country...now that it's wrecked they get to come wreck my country too? No thanks.
"They".... That "They" includes the west and our governments.

Here is one of the events that triggered the snowball of many of the conflicts in the ME we see today.

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/19/politics/cia-iran-1953-coup/index.html

The west and the Soviet Union using the ME region as the site of a proxy-war for the cold-war. Democracy wasn't respected there, puppet governments were installed and overthrown as if countries were just pieces of a chess board. This all spiraled into more radicalization of groups who hated the west for intervening in their countries.

Imagine a foreign power helping overthrow a president in the USA and installing not only a puppet but a dictatorship along with it. Would you blame the US citizens alone for that? I bet you wouldn't...
 
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JordanN

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Who wants to stay in a war torn country ? They need to migrate to safer countries and start new lives
Japan was hit by TWO atomic bombs.
Germany was destroyed by two world wars.
London was pelted by bombs by the German Airforce.
Russians/East Europeans were being slaughtered by both Communists and Nazis by the MILLIONS.
The U.S fought a devastating war on its own soil to retake the Confederacy.

But the Middle East has one war and it's,

"OMG OPEN YOUR BORDERS EUROPE. DON'T BE RACIST. THESE PEOPLE CANNOT LIVE HERE ANYMORE. EVEN THOUGH ISRAEL IS NEXT DOOR AND IS DOING FINE. BUT THEY RATHER GO STRAIGHT TO EUROPE INSTEAD."
 
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JordanN

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Imagine a foreign power helping overthrow a president in the USA and installing not only a puppet but a dictatorship along with it. Would you blame the US citizens alone for that? I bet you wouldn't...
You don't think Americans wont fight back?

What is 1776? America was founded to oppose tyranny. There's no way they'll let it happen again without a damn war happening.

And the Middle East was not the only region affected by Cold War. Assassinations and new governments literally happened everywhere.
Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, South Korea, Ethiopia just to name a few that had regime change.

But the Cold War is long over. The Middle East shouldn't be the West's problem and I'm all for less interventionism there.
 
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crowbrow

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Japan was hit by TWO atomic bombs.
Germany was destroyed by two world wars.
London was pelted by bombs by the German Airforce.
Russians/East Europeans were being slaughtered by both Communists and Nazis by the MILLIONS.
The U.S fought a devastating war on its own soil to retake the Confederacy.

But the Middle East has one war and it's,

"OMG OPEN YOUR BORDERS EUROPE. DON'T BE RACIST. THESE PEOPLE CANNOT LIVE HERE ANYMORE. EVEN THOUGH ISRAEL IS NEXT DOOR AND IS DOING FINE. BUT THEY RATHER GO STRAIGHT TO EUROPE INSTEAD."
A war that has been going constantly for half a century... All those examples happened also in very different contexts. Also are you suggesting that there were no migrations of citizens from those countries during those wars?

Just an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_escaping_from_German-occupied_Europe 163000 alone the first year Hitler came to power migrated.
 

crowbrow

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You don't think Americans wont fight back?

What is 1776? America was founded to oppose tyranny. There's no way they'll let it happen again without a damn war happening.

And the Middle East was not the only region affected by Cold War. Assassinations and new governments literally happened everywhere.
Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, South Korea, Ethiopia just to name a few that had regime change.

But the Cold War is long over. The Middle East shouldn't be the West's problem and I'm all for less interventionism there.
And what do you think the revolution of 1979 was? They basically overthrew US puppet but by then these groups were radicalized and the conflicts have been going on since then. The west with much more technology, has supported many other interventions. So it's not like after 1979 everything went quiet. It has been a constant fighting of foreign power interventions from 1959 to the present.
 

JordanN

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A war that has been going constantly for half a century... All those examples happened also in very different contexts. Also are you suggesting that there were no migrations of citizens from those countries during those wars?

Just an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_escaping_from_German-occupied_Europe 163000 alone the first year Hitler came to power migrated.
There were resistance movements. Europeans may have been moving, but once all those countries were liberated, how many still decided to flee Europe?



And what do you think the revolution of 1979 was? They basically overthrew US puppet but by then these groups were radicalized and the conflicts have been going on since then. The west with much more technology, has supported many other interventions. So it's not like after 1979 everything went quiet.
That's not my problem. If anything, that makes the immigration situation worse. What If I don't want Europe to become radicalized either?


crowbrow said:
It has been a constant fighting of foreign power interventions from 1959 to the present.
War has existed since mankind began. When two world wars didn't force all Europeans to leave the continent, the Middle East has no excuse to flee theirs.

If these people hate foreign intervention so much why aren't they going after the governments? What does the average European citizen have to do with the Middle East?
 
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MisterFalcon

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"They".... That "They" includes the west and our governments.

Here is one of the events that triggered the snowball of many of the conflicts in the ME we see today.

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/19/politics/cia-iran-1953-coup/index.html
Ah, the 1953 creation of radical islam by the CIA. Before that day there was only peace and harmony across the Middle East. Ignore the 1400 years of Shia-Sunni strife, if a bad thing was not caused by The West it did not happen.
 

crowbrow

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Ah, the 1953 creation of radical islam by the CIA. Before that day there was only peace and harmony across the Middle East. Ignore the 1400 years of Shia-Sunni strife, if a bad thing was not caused by The West it did not happen.
The US didn't create the radicalization but the increased radicalization of the groups and their numbers of supporters have increased with every foreign intervention. Before 1959 a leader was democratically elected and he was quiet secular.
 

crowbrow

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There were resistance movements. Europeans may have been moving, but once all those countries were liberated, how many still decided to flee Europe?
Yeah and have you seen the state of the countries most of the refugees come from? War is still going on daily. Look at Siria for example.




That's not my problem. If anything, that makes the immigration situation worse. What If I don't want Europe to become radicalized either?
Then educating the refugees and accepting them and not discriminating them works to make them feel welcomed. If they feel pushed away they are easier victims of radicalization.



War has existed since mankind began. When two world wars didn't force all Europeans to leave the continent, the Middle East has no excuse to flee theirs.
And not all muslims are fleeing the ME, only a minority. Just like with Europe then.

If these people hate foreign intervention so much why aren't they going after the governments? What does the average European citizen have to do with the Middle East?
Are you saying that ME citizens should go against the US government? With what? With camels? And when they do that then they are terrorists anyways like with 9/11. The European and US citizens have voted in power the people that have supported interventions in the ME. That's their responsibility and now they are reaping what they sow basically. Remember how US citizens supported Bush against Iraq when he was clearly using fake evidence and they voted him for office again? So basically the western citizens were giving their oks for the intervention of their governments.

I'm not saying people or governments in the ME are not also responsible but to pretend the west is innocent here is absurd when you look into history books.
 

Cucked SoyBoy

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"They".... That "They" includes the west and our governments.

So if Bush and Obama ruined their countries, go prosecute them and demand recompense. It wasn't the average American's fault. We don't deserve to have our countries ruined because of something they did.
 

JordanN

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Yeah and have you seen the state of the countries most of the refugees come from? War is still going on daily. Look at Siria for example.
Actually, I have.
You can look on youtube "Baghdad Christmas 2016" or any modern year. Believe it or not, the entire middle east isn't actually rubble. They do have cities. But if they all flee from it, then yeah, you will be left with just rocks in its places.

crowbrow said:
Then educating the refugees and accepting them and not discriminating them works to make them feel welcomed. If they feel pushed away they are easier victims of radicalization.
Why is this our responsibility? Once again, why do we have to babysit the Middle East and teach them the errors of their ways?
These people aren't even kids. Some (or even most) are fighting age Men. Be a man and stick up for your country.

If Europe or the West ever fell, do you think they're going to put their lives at risk and defend me? I don't think so.

crowbrow said:
And not all muslims are fleeing the ME, only a minority. Just like with Europe then.
If these same wars are going to go on forever, then immigration will follow it. I don't want Europe to be a source of endless migration from the Middle East. It needs to be stopped or at least prevented from taking over our countries.

crowbrow said:
Are you saying that ME citizens should go against the US government? With what? With camels? And when they do that then they are terrorists anyways like with 9/11.
When 3 out of 4 targets are civilian infrastructure, then you've earned that name. Their primary weapons were also hijacked planes, i.e passengers who also had nothing to do with the Middle East.

crowbrow said:
The European and US citizens have voted in power the people that have supported interventions in the ME. That's their responsibility and now they are reaping what they sow basically. Remember how US citizens supported Bush against Iraq when he was clearly using fake evidence and they voted him for office again? So basically the western citizens were giving their oks for the intervention of their governments.
By collectively punishing the people who didn't support the invasions or Bush?
Once again, I don't want our governments to be responsible for the Middle East. That doesn't give a pass for Islam to freely migrate to the West and take over our countries demographically.
 
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crowbrow

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So if Bush and Obama ruined their countries, go prosecute them and demand recompense. It wasn't the average American's fault. We don't deserve to have our countries ruined because of something they did.
Lol prosecute them how? People have accused Bush of war crimes only to be quickly dismissed by the same "justice" organizations countries like the US control or the US simply decides that they are too good for being a part of the International Criminal Court whose purpose is too prosecute war crimes. So no one can do shit basically.

And like I mentioned before, the US citizens supported Bush overwhelmingly when he was showing fake WMD "evidence" on the tv to justify the war in Iraq even when the rest of the world was calling for that evidence to be fake. So there is a quota of responsibility from the citizens from western countries. I'm not saying people in the west deserve their countries to be destroyed but then again the ME citizens didn't either and nobody cared for them back then... now you can't blame them for seeking refuge elsewhere when their countries are a mess because of what foreign governments and their own governments did.
 

JordanN

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And like I mentioned before, the US citizens supported Bush overwhelmingly when he was showing fake WMD "evidence" on the tv to justify the war in Iraq even when the rest of the world was calling for that evidence to be fake. So there is a quota of responsibility from the citizens from western countries. I'm not saying people in the west deserve their countries to be destroyed but then again the ME citizens didn't either and nobody cared for them back then... now you can't blame them for seeking refuge elsewhere when their countries are a mess because of what foreign governments and their own governments did.
They're seeking refuge in Western countries which is a terrible response to what should actually be a temporary or short-term solution.

When are they planning to go back? What if they never do? There's no way the West wants to be stuck with them for time eternity.
 
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crowbrow

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Actually, I have.
You can look on youtube "Baghdad Christmas 2015" or any modern year. Believe it or not, the entire middle east isn't actually rubble. They do have cities. But if they all flee from it, then yeah, you will be left with just rocks in its places.
Yeah there's still war though. Not all parts of Germany were destroyed during the war and yet people fled.


Why is this our responsibility? Once again, why do we have to babysit the Middle East and teach them the errors of their ways?
These people aren't even kids. Some (or even most) are fighting age Men. Be a man and stick up for your country.
It's everyone responsibility. Western governments helped create this mess so they need to own up to their part of the responsibility of the mess they helped create.

If Europe or the West ever fell, do you think they're going to put their lives at risk and defend me? I don't think so.
They could welcome you, who knows? There are many good people in the ME. Maybe that will happen to Europe at one point so the chances of being treated humanely increase if you gave that treatement before.


If these same wars are going to go on forever, then immigration will follow it. I don't want Europe to be a source of endless migration from the Middle East. It needs to be stopped or at least prevented from taking over our countries.
Yeah well immigration from conflict areas have been going on since humanity exists. It is not a new phenomenon and all cultures have experience it. So it is going to happen whether you like it or not specially if foreign governments keep using the region for proxy wars. So you have two options: 1) accept people and try to act as humanely as possible and work on solving the issues in parallel or 2) ignore the migrants, close the door and watch them die by thousands or millions in front of your borders. Now as a western with western values and humanity, I can't accept the second option. I can't speak for others though, but if we choose the second option then I guess we lose the right to call ourselves "civilized" or "moral leaders". And that is losing quiet a bit of power in international relationships.


When 3 out of 4 targets are civilian infrastructure, then you've earned that name. Their primary weapons were also hijacked planes, i.e passengers who also had nothing to do with the Middle East.
Yeah I agree the name terrorists fits them quiet well. But then I also find what western governments do in those countries to be basically the same but in the form of state terrorism.

By collectively punishing the people who didn't support the invasions or Bush?
Once again, I don't want our governments to be responsible for the Middle East. That doesn't give a pass for Islam to free migrate to the West and take over our countries demographically.
Well most of the people migrating from the ME also have no responsibility on what their governments did or of foreign governments manipulating their own governments and yet they are being condemned to war, death and misery. So the world is not fair but we could maybe make it a bit fairer by treating others like humans.
 

crowbrow

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They're seeking refuge in Western countries which is a terrible response to what should actually be a temporary or short-term solution.

When are they planning to go back? What if they never do? There's no way the West wants to be stuck with them for time eternity.
Maybe they won't be back ever... but then again that's the nature of migrations I guess...
 

Cucked SoyBoy

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So this mass migration is a punishment for our sins? OK...so why does the Left say it will help our countries, make us more "vibrant" and such?
 

crowbrow

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So this mass migration is a punishment for our sins? OK...so why does the Left say it will help our countries, make us more "vibrant" and such?
It could help, if done correctly but it will probably take time and some sacrifices so it wont be easy. If done incorrectly it will probably be a mess and treating refugees like criminals is the incorrect path IMO.
 

danielberg

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Fact of the matter is that you have to be mentally damaged as a lefty to promote large scale import of one of the most conservative ideologies on the planet just as your birth rate falls below replacement level.
It is really something else when western conservatives have to explain this in detail to liberals again and again that this is a stupid idea and basically tell them they are fucking idiots.
Because news flash it wont be conservatives or the next generation of conservatives that will have the biggest issues adapting, it will be the soft brained leftists that promoted this nonsense from the beginning.
Gay rights, religious freedom, separation of politics and religion, minority rights, democracy, Feminism and womens rights?
You think these things will be stable as populations shift around over the next two generations and politicians have to appease it?
 
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JordanN

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It's everyone responsibility. Western governments helped create this mess so they need to own up to their part of the responsibility of the mess they helped create.
I don't need to owe up by sacrificing our demographics. Once again, put the politicians responsible on trial. I would 100% support an international wide effort to imprison people for war crimes. But that's as far as responsibility go.

I would even be fine sending international aid or setting up charities meant to help people in foreign countries.

But transforming Europe permanently into another Middle East zone is not an option.

crowbrow said:
They could welcome you, who knows? There are many good people in the ME. Maybe that will happen to Europe at one point so the chances of being treated humanely increase if you gave that treatement before.
I was talking about the refugees. If Europe came under turmoil, what evidence exists they would defend it as opposed to jumping ship like they did with their last country?

And, if Europeans were to move to the Middle East, do you not see the same problems would rise again? You bring people over from a different culture, you're going to get conflict. Atheists for example, would never be treated humanly in Middle Eastern countries. They would be murdered via Islamic laws.


crowbrow said:
Yeah well immigration from conflict areas have been going on since humanity exists. It is not a new phenomenon and all cultures have experience it.
Borders exist to stop groups of people from just walking into other countries. Once again, why do you think Japan is so tight on immigration? They take in asylum seekers, but they do not grant them permanent residence status in mass.

If the Middle East is going to be fighting forever, Europe cannot keep taking in so many people and not knowing what to do with them.

crowbrow said:
So you have two options: 1) accept people and try to act as humanely as possible and work on solving the issues in parallel or 2) ignore the migrants, close the door and watch them die by thousands or millions in front of your borders. Now as a western with western values and humanity, I can't accept the second option. I can't speak for others though, but if we choose the second option then I guess we lose the right to call ourselves "civilized" or "moral leaders". And that is losing quiet a bit of power in international relationships.
3rd option. Don't run to Europe. Stay back and fight for your country.


crowbrow said:
Well most of the people migrating from the ME also have no responsibility on what their governments did or of foreign governments manipulating their own governments and yet they are being condemned to war, death and misery. So the world is not fair but we could maybe make it a bit fairer by treating others like humans.
That does not give them the right to permanently settle in Europe and the West.
The world isn't fair but respect for borders and demographics still come first.
 
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Cucked SoyBoy

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Africa and the middle east are crappy places to live. If the entire populations of Africa and the middle east move to Europe, then Europe will become a crappy place to live. Simple.
 

JordanN

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Africa and the middle east are crappy places to live. If the entire populations of Africa and the middle east move to Europe, then Europe will become a crappy place to live. Simple.
The continents themselves are fine. It's when you elect governments that are obviously corrupt do they become terrible places to live.

Most people probably don't know Zimbabwe use to be a 1st world paradise. It was only after the Rhodesians were forced out and Mugabe came to power did the nation turn into another failed state.

Israel is also proof the Middle East could be 1st world if they tried. You just need a population that believes in working together and innovating, as opposed to corrupt governments and non-stop fighting.
 
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Tesseract

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all wars are crimes, and the presidency is a cloak of immense power and protection
 

pramod

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Wasn't like 90% of the "refugees" flooding Europe just men looking for better jobs? I think it's inaccurate to say that all these refugees are just trying to escape death or war. If they just don't want to get killed why not just immigrate to Egypt or any of the dozen or so closer Arab countries?

Also if European countries didn't offer free welfare how many would be coming?
 
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Wasn't like 90% of the "refugees" flooding Europe just men looking for better jobs? I think it's inaccurate to say that all these refugees are just trying to escape death or war. If they just don't want to get killed why not just immigrate to Egypt or any of the dozen or so closer Arab countries?

Also if European countries didn't offer free welfare how many would be coming?
Because many of those fellow Middle Eastern countries don't want them. Some kind of brotherhood huh? Saudi Arabia, Qatar and those rich nations turn them away too. As usual, let the stereotypical "Western White People" clean up the mess, act as global police, and global charities. One big piggy bank.

But you are right, there's better opportunities for the in Europe since the policies are more lax, and they probably want to try a freer lifestyle.

So even though it's farther away (and a dangerous boat ride over for anyone taking a journey over water), refugees would rather get their asses to places like Italy and Germany, while skipping UAE places, and even skipping over Turkey which is right there. I don't know what Turkey's refugee policy is, but it's not like refugees took the short trip and tried to make a home in Turkey. Most seemed to risk traveling triple the distance all the way to Germany.
 
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Cybrwzrd

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That's a very romanticized view of colonialism and completely ignores the raping and pillage of entire cultures and lands the western powers have done on foreign territories throughout history. If you are going to base your view of the world on such a distorted view of reality then nothing of much use for a rational conversation can come from there I'm afraid.
I kind of look at colonialism as the tax less developed areas paid to be advanced. Had the Europeans not colonized the world, most of it would still be centuries behind us. It isn’t as if Europe wasn’t a warring shithole for a good majority of the 1000’s.

Yes, people suffered; so what?

Europe tried to enlighten the world, and advancing more primitive cultures hundreds of years technologically and philosophically is going to take a toll on the native populace.