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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises

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Dec 19, 2016
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I know plenty of people. My family came to the US two generations back. My dad moved us around the country job-hopping. Plenty of areas in the country are doing great, and we absolutely should be helping people move out of distressed ones, but the idea that it's NAFTA/Bill Clinton/etc. at fault here is ridiculous.

Rural areas are losing ground because of globalization, automation, and information technology. They were always less competitive (economically) than urban ones, but the technological revolution of the past 4 decades has made that ratio very lopsided. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II, Obama. None of them could stop this from happening. Many of these places have been bleeding population for 7+ decades.

Rural Areas arent the problem.

Its the midclass people who are College EDUCATED who knowingly voted for a white supremacist over a white woman.
 

kamspy

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If you make $50k a year you probably weren't affected by Obamacare at all

Just because I can afford the substantial increase in premiums doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

I was also more than happy to forgo the unlimited maximum payout in exchange for rock bottom premiums, non existent deductibles and pocket change copays.
 

Azure Dream

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Boy, I sure am glad Hillary tore open this old wound for her book at a time when non-shitty people need to unify to resist against the scum that has seized power.
 
Dec 19, 2016
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It's almost like, *gasp* SHOCK AND HORROR, *PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR VIEWS*.

The fuck are we asking for as leftists if not for that?

For moderates to stop concern trolling & enabling republicans into every bloody level of government.

I hate the fact that Debbie got the position she did, she's one detestable person
 

Surface of Me

I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
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The deep south.
Considering the racial makeup of Southern Democrats, this is more than just a little racist.

Also stupid as hell cobsidering Texas did get above 40% democrat this past election. Lol.

Anyways, fuck off hilary. Maybe you shoulda campaigned more and blamed others less.
 

pigeon

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Just because I can afford the substantial increase in premiums doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

Those increases in premiums weren't due to Obamacare.

I was also more than happy to forgo the unlimited maximum payout in exchange for rock bottom premiums, non existent deductibles and pocket change copays.

Yeah, you're basically blaming Obamacare for a bunch of shitty stuff your employer did to you.
 

AmayaPapaya

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It's a result of what system was setup in the 12th amendment, watch the other link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo if you don't get why such a setup results in 2 parties.

The 12th setup the electoral college, and the 12th results in 2 parties due to the rules.



?

This is a thread about Clinton's book, so US political terms and definitions should be assumed I thought?

Your missing my point. You can't say one side is essentially the same as the other, with the way parties work in the US. Progressives, which are a separate party in other countries, are the same party in the US because that's how it has to work.
 

kitsunelaine

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For moderates to stop concern trolling & enabling republicans into every bloody level of government.

I hate the fact that Debbie got the position she did, she's one detestable person

So people who think that others can change their views are moderates?

Jesus fuck, I wish I had the supernatural ability to baselessly discern the political views of the people I'm debating with that you seem to.
 

Matt

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So now the best you got is a semantics argument?
Actually I kinda think your use of "the DNC" points to the use of that particular buggyman in arguments. At least that's what motivated my post.

But ok, it was just a typo. Your argument was still poor, because the Democratic Party is clearly the major party doing the most for and fighting for minorities in this nation.

Is it enough? Fuck no, it probably never could be.
 

Nipo

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Just because I can afford the substantial increase in premiums doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

I was also more than happy to forgo the unlimited maximum payout in exchange for rock bottom premiums, non existent deductibles and pocket change copays.

At that point why have insurance? If it isn't going to cover the $2-8 million it costs if you get cancer you might as well self insure.
 

Shauni

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Boy, I sure am glad Hillary tore open this old wound for her book at a time when non-shitty people need to unify to resist against the scum that has seized power.

Tore open lol. This shit has been going on non-stop since the fucking primaries. It never ended.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
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Your missing my point. You can't say one side is essentially the same as the other, with the way parties work in the US. Progressives, which are a separate party in other countries, are the same party in the US because that's how it has to work.

Yeah, which is ultimately why my major issue with Sanders, was (is?) is attacks on the Democratic Party. Attacking Clinton during the primary is part of the process, especially when you eventually support the canidate you lose too.
 
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Those increases in premiums weren't due to Obamacare.



Yeah, you're basically blaming Obamacare for a bunch of shitty stuff your employer did to you.
If FEMA lets you die in a hurricane because it's underfunded and understaffed and only staffed by incompetents, your death wasn't due to FEMA since they didn't make the hurricane but they also let it just happen to you and through political action could have saved you!
 

MIMIC

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Bernie caused "lasting damage?" I thought it was those "30 years of GOP smear(TM)."

Hillary was damaged goods going into this election. That Iraq vote? The gay marriage flip flop? Yeah...that's all you, Hillary. Blaming this on Bernie is pathetic.
 

kamspy

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I mean, no one really likes taxes (real or effective) but you can't really operate a decent social-democracy without at least having them on those who can afford to pay, man.

I understand that. I think we can/should find a way to adopt EU style healthcare. From my perspective though, the ACA didn't help. The people I knew who were on state insurance (Caresource in Ohio) remained on state insurance. I guess it helped a sliver of people in the income bracket directly above that? Preexisting conditions, maybe. I don't remember people with preexisting condition dying in the street before the ACA though.

I still vote only for my own well being, and everyone on this forum should do the same.

At that point why have insurance? If it isn't going to cover the $2-8 million it costs if you get cancer you might as well self insure.

I don't carry insurance now. I plan on buying it if I get horribly sick thanks to the preexisting conditions loop hole!

Those increases in premiums weren't due to Obamacare.



Yeah, you're basically blaming Obamacare for a bunch of shitty stuff your employer did to you.

Obamacare did away with capped plans. Of course these new plans are going to cost more. How couldn't they?
 

Matt

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Bernie caused "lasting damage?" I thought it was those "30 years of GOP smear(TM)."

Hillary was damaged goods going into this election. That Iraq vote? The gay marriage flip flop? Yeah...that's all you, Hillary. Blaming this on Bernie is pathetic.
They all caused damage.
 

RoninChaos

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What bugs me the most about all of this, a chunk of the Bernie bros voted for Trump. If you were really about the kind of change you wanted to see, why did you vote for the guy who is the antithesis of everything Bernie was? How the fuck do you defend that? How do you defend the fact that you bought into the same super villain narrative the right trotted out in regards to Hilary? If anything, that makes them WORSE than the people on the right who voted for them because the Bernie Bros were supposed to know better and they fucked up anyway.
 

legacyzero

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Man, some people really thinking the entire book is only a few pages long.
I'd raise two points on this: if she beat him so easily, she would have needed any pages at all.

2) blaming him for her GE loss after she did such a "great job" against him = "I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that stupid Bernie!"
 

pigeon

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If FEMA lets you die in a hurricane because it's underfunded and understaffed and only staffed by incompetents, your death wasn't due to FEMA since they didn't make the hurricane but they also let it just happen to you and through political action could have saved you!

It can be simultaneously true that a better bill than ACA would help more people in better ways AND that random negative healthcare things that happened to you were not directly caused by the ACA!

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't pass a better bill, I am arguing against a pretty specific dumb idea here!
 
Dec 19, 2016
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So people who think that others can change their views are moderates?

Jesus fuck, I wish I had the supernatural ability to discern the political views of the people I'm debating with that you seem to.

Listen here, I'm not about to argue with you if you cant read.


This is for you




Stop jumping to conclusions .

Hillary LOVES to pander to the Bill Maher part of the democratic base. It's what she does best while getting "liberal" legislation passed. But the way she contextualized her campaign in relation to Bernie's was all wrong. She only continued to err in the General election.


Russia loves playing both sides against the middle. So quit this shit now. This is their fault.
 

Hierophant

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What bugs me the most about all of this, a chunk of the Bernie bros voted for Trump. If you were really about the kind of change you wanted to see, why did you vote for the guy who is the antithesis of everything Bernie was? How the fuck do you defend that? How do you defend the fact that you bought into the same super villain narrative the right trotted out in regards to Hilary? If anything, that makes them WORSE than the people on the right who voted for them because the Bernie Bros were supposed to know better and they fucked up anyway.

those guys are just dipshits and certainly do not represent any sizeable portion of actual bernie sanders supporters.
 

Fenderputty

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but what's the point of "winning" if all it does is take us right back to the status quo that gave us trump in the first place?

the party needs to do better than "we're not republicans"

The most liberal presidential platform ever = "we're not republicans" to Berniecrats.

I hate the far left
 

legacyzero

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What bugs me the most about all of this, a chunk of the Bernie bros voted for Trump. If you were really about the kind of change you wanted to see, why did you vote for the guy who is the antithesis of everything Bernie was? How the fuck do you defend that? How do you defend the fact that you bought into the same super villain narrative the right trotted out in regards to Hilary? If anything, that makes them WORSE than the people on the right who voted for them because the Bernie Bros were supposed to know better and they fucked up anyway.
Anti establishment and populist voters. But you gotta remember, a good chunk of those folks were republican anyway.

Even now, a surprising amount of republican voters support things like Single Payer now. More supporters than detractors
 
Dec 19, 2016
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What bugs me the most about all of this, a chunk of the Bernie bros voted for Trump. If you were really about the kind of change you wanted to see, why did you vote for the guy who is the antithesis of everything Bernie was? How the fuck do you defend that? How do you defend the fact that you bought into the same super villain narrative the right trotted out in regards to Hilary? If anything, that makes them WORSE than the people on the right who voted for them because the Bernie Bros were supposed to know better and they fucked up anyway.

Stop falling for Russian propoganda.

bernie bros dont exist.

Any of those 10% were independents who dont give a crap. They were never progressives to begin with

PUMA's pissed me the hell off in 2008 and they went and voted for McCain. I mean who does that kind of crap? 20% is ridiculous, the 10% shows how much more polarized politics in 2016 were compared to the past
 

Josh7289

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People respond to inspiring candidates. Clinton may have been practical but practicality doesn't win elections.
 
Jul 25, 2015
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It can be simultaneously true that a better bill than ACA would help more people in better ways AND that random negative healthcare things that happened to you were not directly caused by the ACA!

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't pass a better bill, I am arguing against a pretty specific dumb idea here!
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what the person you were responding to said. The US healthcare system fucks over everyone who doesn't profit from it, and by not changing that, the ACA also did nothing (well, for the people it left entirely untouched I mean, obviously newly insured people are better off) while people got fucked over by the entire healthcare industry.

so if someone was excited for Obama because he was going to make healthcare cheaper, being disappointed by him failing to do so seems reasonable. It didn't really directly fuck over anyone (well, except medical device manufacturers) so obviously it didn't directly hurt really anyone, but I understood what he was saying as "I voted for Obama to get cheaper healthcare and didn't get cheaper healthcare" which seems like a reasonable statement
 

Ottaro

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I'd raise two points on this: if she beat him so easily, she would have needed any pages at all.

2) blaming him for her GE loss after she did such a "great job" against him = "I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that stupid Bernie!"

But the book is about all of the factors that contributed to her loss. People are acting like she is laying her loss entirely at Bernie's feet.

It's not justified to spend 'a few pages' out of 512 pages talking about what impact her primary opponent might have had?
 

AmayaPapaya

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Yeah, which is ultimately why my major issue with Sanders, was (is?) is attacks on the Democratic Party. Attacking Clinton during the primary is part of the process, especially when you eventually support the canidate you lose too.

I'm confused. He never really attacked them. I remember very well he went out of his way not to launch attacks at them, and would often say it's the system that make politicscorrupt, and we have to tackle that for real change. He never viciously pointed a finger at the whole party, in particular.

In the general election, he worked incredibly hard to get people to vote for Hillary, and it shows with just how large a portion of his base actually went out and voted for her.
 
Dec 19, 2016
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Oh boy oh boy, you're getting SERIOUS now.



Uh huh. Tell me more about how I'm a Russian shill for not accepting Bernie as my lord and saviour.

My god, are you thick? You jump to conclusions faster than a Hasting from Pretty Little Liars lmao!!

Just stop you're literally cutting off your nose to spite your face now and its borderline RIDICULOUS

The most liberal presidential platform ever = "we're not republicans" to Berniecrats.

I hate the far left

We're not republicans is what the DNC has been selling since Obama actually ran with an ACTUAL campaign message. Which you know is suddenly " ONCE IN A BLUE MOON POLITICIAN"

Your hate is misplaced.

Clinton always had messaging problems.
 

Matt

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They did, by that's campaigning. Everyone gets a little muddy during the process. Her book should have been about her crappy charisma and being unable to overcome it
Her book can be about whatever she wants, and talking about Bernie for a few pages is perfectly reasonable.
 

Shauni

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May 31, 2011
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I'd raise two points on this: if she beat him so easily, she would have needed any pages at all.

2) blaming him for her GE loss after she did such a "great job" against him = "I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that stupid Bernie!"

She beat him by over 3 million votes, she did beat him easily. And if you'd actually read the first page and seen other passages she doesn't feel she did that great a job against him because she deliberately held back dissecting his arguments because of calls from her campaign and Obama not to cause a split in the party (which Bernie didn't give a shit about).

Anyone who thinks it didn't contribute to her lose is delusional
 

RoninChaos

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Stop falling for Russian prooganda.

bernie bros dont exist.

Any of those 10% were independents who dont give a crap. They were never progressives to begin with
C'mon son, are you serious? Bernie Bros fucking exist, man. I ran into them all the time during the campaign. I had to deal with the bullshit spoken by idiots I know talking about "the lesser of two evils" and how if they didn't vote for her and voted third party or trump that the democrats would understand their grievances and pull to the left. Which is insane because if anything the democrars are feeling like they have to lean more right to get voters they lost rather than left because people thought protest votes would get the message through, but all that got through was Donald fucking Trump.
 

kitsunelaine

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My god, are you thick? You jump to conclusions faster than a Hasting from Pretty Little Liars lmao!!

Just stop you're literally cutting off your nose to spite your face now and its borderline RIDICULOUS

Tell me more about jumping to conclusions. Mr. "You're a moderate for thinking that people can change their beliefs based on reasoned arguments".

Also literally doesn't mean what you think it means. My nose is perfectly fine, thanks.
 

MIMIC

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They all caused damage.

Yes....it's called a campaign. If Hillary (or anyone, for that matter) was under the impression that her opponent wouldn't say damaging things about her then....yikes. (or maybe she actually believed that she deserved to win)

But my point still stands: Hillary came into this election as damaged goods. Like throwing a rock through the window of a broke down, abandoned home.

The rock didn't make you look bad.
 
Dec 19, 2016
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If the Democrats actually had politicians who work as hard as Obama does we would not be in this mess right now.

I guarantee you that.

Stop bitching about the Electoral College and the cheating the RNC does. Play the game to win.

Stop falling for Russian Propaganda that only exits online mkay

Tell me more about jumping to conclusions. Mr. "You're a moderate for thinking that people can change their beliefs based on reasoned arguments".

Also literally doesn't mean what you think it means. My nose is perfectly fine, thanks.

Feel free to put words in my mouth but I quoted your post. People can read.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you keep it up I'm going to seriously start questioning your motives here.
 

Fenderputty

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if that was the most liberal platform ever, no wonder a vast swathe of america didn't give enough of a shit to show up to the polls

I would post a nice study about racial animus being the largest motivator in anti federal spending sentiment, but I'm positive it would be a waste on you. It was posted anyway so it seems my assumption may be correct already
 

slit

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I understand that. I think we can/should find a way to adopt EU style healthcare. From my perspective though, the ACA didn't help. The people I knew who were on state insurance (Caresource in Ohio) remained on state insurance. I guess it helped a sliver of people in the income bracket directly above that? Preexisting conditions, maybe. I don't remember people with preexisting condition dying in the street before the ACA though.

Yeah they don't die in the street, they die in their home or in the hospital after being admitted once it's too late. Just because it's not in your face doesn't mean it isn't there. What a dumb thing to say.
 
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