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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises

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pigeon

Banned
Feb 14, 2011
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This is exactly on-point.

Of course, one lesson I learned from last year is that you SHOULD offer magic abs.

Policy details and feasibility don't really matter in campaign.

I actually think Barro's critique here is on point: the entire point of the six-minute abs bit is that you can't have seven-minute abs!

If you're already promising something that is impossible, it's very easy for you to get owned by somebody promising something even better and even more impossible. What are you going to do, call their promise unrealistic? Your promise is also unrealistic!

This is a much better critique of the Republican Party, because this is basically exactly what Trump did to win their primary. Once you abandon any semblance of reasonable policy, you are very vulnerable to a total lunatic coming in and taking over, because you've lost your foremost defense against impossible promises.

This would be unintentionally revealing about Hillary's perspective on what she'd be able to accomplish after getting elected with a GOP Congress, but I tend to think Josh is right that Hillary just didn't understand the movie.

Can somebody answer me why Sanders was the only real contender against Clinton? Why weren't more Dems interested in trying to be the new POTUS?

Because they thought Hillary would be a great president and wanted her to win.

Is there really someone who wants Hillary's take on why she got completely owned by Trump?

I'm interested in reading it. Probably not in discussing it on GAF!
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
Mar 25, 2008
10,533
1
0
Welp glad Americans buy into bullshit. I have some magic beans for everyone who wants some.

Regardless of what you think, Americans love populist-lite shit like this. If you want to win an election you have to promise an administration with a strong ideal behind it. Hope/Change, MAGA, etc.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Can we cut it with the click-bait headlines? There's no need to CAPITALIZE apparently random WORDS to create a sense of EMPHASIS; we can be given more intellectual credit than that.

'Clinton claims that Sanders' policies were unlikely to be implemented' would have been a fine title.
 

Lowmelody

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Oct 31, 2013
1,964
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This is amazing and on point. This was such a surreal part of my life, watching madness light everything on fire.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Apr 4, 2007
15,579
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Nope, she's 100% fucking right.

And I'm glad she's saying it... Not that it absolves her of responsibility by any means, but the character assassinations were completely uncalled for.

Character assassination from Bernie? Are you saying that any critique or debate, or difference in opinion, against candidate Clinton's proposed policies were not allowed? That's the whole point of a primary. This attitude from Clinton supporters during the primaries where Bernie and his supporters just need to fall in line or get out of the way never helped your cause.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Jul 25, 2011
9,067
5
0
Welp glad Americans buy into bullshit. I have some magic beans for everyone who wants some.

Hey, I voted for Obama twice, but that 2008 campaign was magic beans. It was based more on hope and promise and potential after eight years of Bush than anything else.

Sometimes you have sell voters on what they want to buy, not on what you want them to buy.
 

iammeiam

Member
Dec 28, 2006
10,664
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Is there really someone who wants Hillary's take on why she got completely owned by Trump?

Yes? There's value in understanding what was going on from her side, how she and her people perceive it, and how they're likely to want to see things go forward for good or ill. I know the hot new thing is wishing the woman who narrowly missed being the first female president (more votes, but 'owned' by the electoral college) would drop off the face of the earth and never be heard from again, but the more we find out about the 2016 election, the more batshit it gets.

The Bernie dynamic, the Trump dynamic, the Russia thing, it all went horribly horribly wrong, and understanding the mindset and advice of the people who ultimately failed to successfully stop Trump is only going to be useful go forward. The Bernie stuff is largely remarkable in that it's surprisingly candid given how controlled Clinton has traditionally been, but I'd be surprised if it was a particularly big focus in the book overall. The rivalry and desire to relitigate the primaries will make it a focal point, but understanding how the Clinton campaign tried and failed to handle the Bernie situation is interesting and I'm curious to know if they'd have approached it differently with the benefit of hindsight.

At the very least, any insider perspective to the ultimate disaster the Clinton campaign ended up being will be fascinating; that it comes from somebody who was clearly holding back a lot just make it potentially more exciting.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Sep 5, 2004
66,964
8
1,590
Arakeen
This is kind of where I am. Bernie had an impact on her campaign but I don't think he had as big of an impact as she likes to believe he had. Hillary ultimately lost because of mistakes she made.

Hillary lost for an array of reasons, but she lost in narrow enough margins in many states that everything from Jill Stein to Russian fraud may have cost her the election. Dismissing Bernie's effect is mathematically silly. It had an effect. Minor effects were all that was required.

Now it's a sticky part of Democracy - remember Nader in Florida? Who are we to tell someone they shouldn't run? That they should sacrifice for the greater good? But then you look at the damage this Fanta colored monster has done JUST TODAY and think, hmm in a tight two party system pragmatism might be essential.

This isn't Bernie's "fault" but it's apparent he had a significant effect.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Apr 24, 2008
29,643
1
1,040
Even so, she still lost the election due to some questionable campaign strategies. Attacking Bernie isn't going to change that, but it might sell some books.

Well we definitely wouldn't want to have a full understanding of the reasons for why she lost, especially if they might impugn Bernie.
 

Shadowhelper

Banned
May 2, 2016
1,221
49
370
Damn she's a great writer

Imposed tough new rules on Wallstreet under Obama, LMAO. This is exactly why Bernie and she are not the same. Bernie would never agree this happened, because it didn't.

She keeps on insisting Bernie and she are the same, because she had similar campaign promises and policies, but its about her record and her lack of credibility to progressive like Bernie.
 

Soulscribe

Member
Mar 21, 2010
9,093
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600
Austin, TX
She's right, and I'm glad she's telling it like it is. There were many reasons for her loss, but I do believe that his impact was the biggest catalyst. He convinced a huge block of people that she was a shady crook, and didn't do much to convince people otherwise after the fact. Trump just had to take what he started and keep it rolling.
 
Dec 11, 2012
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are there no valid left wing critiques of clinton? are we not allowed to voice them for fear of republicans?

Never said that, what I said is people on the left bought into the decades long effort to trash her imagine. You repeat a lie and it becomes the truth to people. Even left leaning friends of mine who grew up in a republican household repeated the same shit their parents were saying, even when they agree with literally nothing. It's not a coincidence, it's people being idiots and literally falling for right wing propaganda.
 

Gunblade47

Neo Member
Nov 27, 2014
257
1
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Fuck the democratic system! Am I doing it right?

I was hoping against hope for actual lessons on how not to run a campaign but alas.

Let's also not forget she would've won in an actual democracy.
 

Wilsongt

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Jul 17, 2007
26,341
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Incoming primary relitigation thread and bitching about how terrible Hillary is.

*grabs popcorn*
 

DarkKyo

Member
Apr 4, 2007
15,579
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By the way it's fantastic this came out today. While we should be focusing our energy on Trump's DACA action we're once again fighting this same stupid fucking battle with each other.
 

8byte

Banned
May 12, 2012
3,053
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Odd to say that Bernie did lasting damage to progressives, while profiting off of ideas and statements that will ultimately do additional damage to progressives.
 

Boke1879

Member
Apr 25, 2013
22,005
1
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Illinois
I don't think she's wrong, but you know what this topic is going to do for people who can't let 2016 go.

That said. I'm over it. We have a man in the WH that's doing all sort of vile shit. If some of you want to keep slinging mud at each other or ""punish" dems or whatever side in 2018 keep expelling that energy.
 

FrontalMonk

Banned
Jun 7, 2011
5,510
0
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What Hillary still doesn't seem to get is that America wasn't in the mood for navel-gazing policy wonkery. They wanted the dream. Bernie and Trump were selling dreams. Hillary was selling realism and constraints.

This is absolutely true. Any time someone asked me why I wanted to (and did) vote for Clinton, I always said the same two things: She's a terrible campaigner, but she'll make a great president, and Bernie has some great dreams, but Hillary will actually get shit done.

She's garbage at trying to connect with voters, but when it comes to actually digging in and doing the fucking job, she's the one you want in there.
 

Skiptastic

Member
Jan 17, 2007
14,868
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1,205
Democrat blames everyone but themselves for their failure. News at 11.

Maybe Sanders was overly optimistic, but at least he actually tried. She seems content to mostly just let things stay as they are, because "republicans will block it so why try?"
I haven't read this book yet, but I'm pretty sure it's not a single chapter book on Bernie Sanders and Hillary's thoughts about him.

There are plenty of chapters for her to write about how her campaign messed up. This is just one part of the book.
 

Drewton

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Jun 23, 2014
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430
She's not wrong. But it's also a little arrogant and I can't blame Bernie either for putting up a fight when he was polling higher than Clintom against Trump.
 

GrooveCommand

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Nov 21, 2013
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Can't believe that she has the gall to blame Bernie for her failures. She won the primary because she had the help of super delegates. She was a highly unfavorable candidate who shouldn't have run in the first place. If this is how she feels she is deeply out of touch with reality.
 

pigeon

Banned
Feb 14, 2011
19,361
1
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Can we cut it with the click-bait headlines? There's no need to CAPITALIZE apparently random WORDS to create a sense of EMPHASIS; we can be given more intellectual credit than that.

Consider the source
 

Version 3.0

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Jun 18, 2005
12,706
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48
Las Vegas
You know what would be great? If Democrats learned from this. It looks like there may be quite a few Democratic candidates running for president in 2020. The absolute last thing we need is for any of their supporters to decide it's their candidate "or bust".
 

Agnostic

but believes in Chael
Aug 15, 2007
5,047
0
0
Chicago
Well, at least she was smart enough to get the book out now before election season and hopefully she will disappear as the midterms gets closer.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
Aug 25, 2014
5,768
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It must be awkward to relate to the Republican argument against everybody Democratic proposal

Thank you.

It nauseating seeing all the "no lies detected" stuff.

Shit looks like Paul Ryan ghostwrote it.
 

aeolist

Banned
Oct 31, 2006
17,538
0
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Never said that, what I said is people on the left bought into the decades long effort to trash her imagine. You repeat a lie and it becomes the truth to people. Even left leaning friends of mine who grew up in a republican household repeated the same shit their parents were saying, even when they agree with literally nothing. It's not a coincidence, it's people being idiots and literally falling for right wing propaganda.
i never saw a leftist claim that she had vince foster murdered or deliberately caused benghazi.

i did see plenty of perfectly valid points about her work at the state department and policy positions she staked out.

the idea that everyone who dislikes her bought into republican propaganda is a strawman. respond to what people are actually saying.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
Jun 13, 2014
7,261
7,845
800
USA
I wanted to create this thread with the title "SAVAGE: Hillary Clinton DESTROYS Bernie Sanders forever in upcoming book" but my better judgment cautioned against it.

I liked this part from OP linked article though:

CNN said:
In her forthcoming book, Clinton noted that the Vermont independent "isn't a Democrat."

"That's not a smear, that's what he says," she wrote. "He didn't get into the race to make sure a Democrat won the White House, he got in to disrupt the Democratic Party."

After outlining how she disagrees with Sanders' view of the Democratic Party, Clinton concludes, "I am proud to be a Democrat and I wish Bernie were, too."
 

TyrantII

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Oct 26, 2013
6,918
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Can somebody answer me why Sanders was the only real contender against Clinton? Why weren't more Dems interested in trying to be the new POTUS?

Because the uphill climbs was steep. A presidential campaign starts 3-4 years before the votes get cast in the primaries and Clinton was a direct line of success of the Obama white house policy and direction.

Even Bernie got in at first just to raise some issues, but caught fire and got momentum that did make him a force to get his issues on the platform.

But as said above, he still lost Super Tuesday and really had zero chance to win the primary once those votes we're in. The rest of that time he stayed in after wasn't well used to advance his policy issues IMO, but it's hard to turn from campaigning to back room dealing and putting on the party Band-Aids.

Bernie is still having issues with it, even with Trump in office. At a time when there couldn't be clearer difference between Democrats and this GOP.
 

Maxim726X

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Jan 16, 2010
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715
Character assassination from Bernie? Are you saying that any critique or debate, or difference in opinion, against candidate Clinton's proposed policies were not allowed? That's the whole point of a primary. This attitude from Clinton supporters during the primaries where Bernie and his supporters just need to fall in line or get out of the way never helped your cause.

But they really weren't critiques or debates. Just from the OP alone:

Bernie:'You've been bought and sold by corporate lapdogs!'
Hillary: 'Show ONE instance where you believe this has affected my voting'
Bernie: '...'

That is the very definition of character assassination. You would expect that from Repubs, but there's no measured policy debate here for two Democratic opponents to be arguing.
 

Father_Brain

Banned
Jun 7, 2004
22,707
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35
New York, NY
If Khaleesi is deluded enough to think that "Clinton reignites 2016 primary debate with attacks on Sanders in new memoir" headlines will play well with anyone outside the same ~10% of the party that already hates Bernie and has for two years now, she's welcome to do as much damage to her own brand as she likes.

Anyway, dismissing policies that are actually popular, easily comprehended by the layman, and not means-tested to hell and back as "ponies" is pretty much everything wrong with her faction of the party.
 

DarkKyo

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Apr 4, 2007
15,579
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She's not wrong. But it's also a little arrogant and I can't blame Bernie either for putting up a fight when he was polling higher than Clintom against Trump.

Can't believe that she has the gall to blame Bernie for her failures. She won the primary because she had the help of super delegates. She was a highly unfavorable candidate who shouldn't have run in the first place. If this is how she feels she is deeply out of touch with reality.
Well said @ both of these.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Apr 24, 2008
29,643
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She's not wrong. But it's also a little arrogant and I can't blame Bernie either for putting up a fight when he was polling higher than Clintom against Trump.

Polling higher? They took a bunch of polls in different states and he lost by a ton. It was called the primary.
 

daveo42

Banned
Dec 28, 2012
29,361
1
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Well we definitely wouldn't want to have a full understanding of the reasons for why she lost, especially if they might impugn Bernie.

I couldn't give two shits about Bernie. It doesn't change the fact that she lost the election. Maybe actually campaigning in some states might have helped her as opposed to automatically putting them in the W column? She underestimated the Bernie Bros, underestimated Trump and his deplorables, and underestimated the idea of "common sense" of the American people.

She underestimated and it lost her the election. If she wants to attack Bernie for losing? Fine, but it amounts to a hill of beans at this point.
 

NYR

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Nov 29, 2006
12,614
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I'm a strong believer in the horseshoe theory. Bernie's ideas were just as unrealistic as Trump's, even though they were better and for the greater good.
 

Neoweee

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Oct 8, 2014
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415
You know what would be great? If Democrats learned from this. It looks like there may be quite a few Democratic candidates running for president in 2020. The absolute last thing we need is for any of their supporters to decide it's their candidate "or bust".

There's a good chance they're just fucked. They are reducing the # of super delegates, which, in a crowded field, increases the odds of multiple candidates strolling into the primary in the 20s, 30s, and 40s of delegate percents, leading to a contested convention.

Hillary didn't win because of super delegates. She won before she got almost 4 million more votes. But Sanders' supporters blaming everything in existence is going to lead the DNC to come up with some bad, drastic changes to minor problems, leading to a weaker nominating process.
 

Mael

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Oct 23, 2009
23,428
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France
Can't believe that she has the gall to blame Bernie for her failures. She won the primary because she had the help of super delegates. She was a highly unfavorable candidate who shouldn't have run in the first place. If this is how she feels she is deeply out of touch with reality.

Speaking about that, how's life in Earth-3?
 
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