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New details on the PS5's cooling system: Fan curve can be adjusted per-game via firmware, M.2 slot is actively cooled, SSD size details

Aug 11, 2016
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geordiemp

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Case 1

Fan curve is adjusted by console update, spins faster when system gets hotter

Case 2

Fan curve is adjusted by game

Both cases, if a game comes that uses lots of AVX 256 and code that generates more heat like furmax for GPUs....gets hotter, both systems will increase fan speed and can adjust curves whenever they want.

End.
 
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-Arcadia-

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Not surprised that the expansion SSD is cooled. I didn’t think they’d just leave it up to heatsinks, which would confuse casuals, or maybe not even fit.

The details about the liquid metal are really cool. I’m always surprised by how much time and engineering go into these things, that on the entertainment side, we just expect, or think is cool. In this case, it sounds like a really interesting challenge, making sure it didn’t eat it’s way out of its containment, shorting the whole board and ruining the product.
 

prinz_valium

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Did you even read the post? The liquid metal end up saving money. They were able to use a smaller and quieter fan because liquid metal dumps the heat out faster than thermal paste. It isn't about getting the maxium cooling; it is about getting the targeted cooling at the right budget.

Yes. Especially if you consider the size of the Heatsink.
A bigger Heatsink would mean an even bigger Ps5. So costs for everything else would go up.

It was necessary to keep the price somewhat in check
 
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CobraXT

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Red Ring of Death 2 incoming.

nah it wont fail in the first year "guarantee period" and i am sure sony tested the hell out of this
cooling system because any rrd like failure will cost them billions .. but i could see this having
ps3 fat yellow light situation which the system will fail but it takes 4-5 years
 
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John Wick

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So, the PS5 might ship quiet and that might last half a year but even if you get a “quiet unit” and win some fan lottery like the PS4 Pro there’s still no guarantee that your machine will be quiet for certain games... so Sony might have learned nothing from the complaining of the PS4 Pro owners... that’s about right for Sony.

We shall wait and see, but this really cemented the PS5 as a “wait for the slim/revision” until they possibly get this sorted.

The 8mm m2 restriction probably won’t effect many cases it will impact a few M2 drives already on the market, let’s hope they did extensive testing of that expansion slot with ssd under heavy load. This design might become an issue later in the console’s life if the slimmer drives fall out of fashion with the PC crowd.The heat question had an interesting response, they seem confident in their solution.

Something that NOBODY is talking about but I’m hoping there is a solution for, is what happens if the SOLDERED SSD drive dies on either the PS5 or XBOX SERIES S/X,I’m really hoping the case is that it will fail to your expansion ssd and install the OS automatically there in case of fault. Nobody should be without their $500 machine for this reason.

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position, and you can make your machine box shaped if you want, they didn’t do themselves any favours with design saving space with this thing at all if it’s going to be huge why not go with a safe traditional design? This fits with nobodies current designs, unless they have a crystal ball and vulvic design is going to be the new norm. Big ugly boxes work for computers and have for eons. AVRs are massive complicated boxes that are fugly and perform complex tasks today and are filled with heat dissipating designs, surely they could have went with that, at least it would look normal next to one. They’re the girl that just got her tongue pierced complaining about her tongue infection.
WTF? Doesn't make any sense. It's like he didn't read the article at all
 

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
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Did you even read the post? The liquid metal end up saving money. They were able to use a smaller and quieter fan because liquid metal dumps the heat out faster than thermal paste. It isn't about getting the maxium cooling; it is about getting the targeted cooling at the right budget.
I doubt the liquid metal, the additional traditional TIM, and that yuge heatsink are cheap for Sony.
So i guess saving money here can be said as managing extra costs. Not too sure why PS5 needed that extra cooling expenses over PS4, as if the design has left much to be desired?🤷‍♀️

As Richard from DF said, Sony is using the old brute force design philosophy.
 
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acm2000

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when i read the title i got worried thinking devs/publishers would be able to alter the fan speed, no one should trust activision with that kind of power.
 

turtlepowa

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Tech noob here. Does it mean they can be set to full speed when really demanding games are released? Would like to know how loud max. speed is.
 
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Three

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Case 1

Fan curve is adjusted by console update, spins faster when system gets hotter

Case 2

Fan curve is adjusted by game

Both cases, if a game comes that uses lots of AVX 256 and code that generates more heat like furmax for GPUs....gets hotter, both systems will increase fan speed and can adjust curves whenever they want.

End.
Seems kind of bizarre. Why not just have fan curves based on temp? I think this is a lost in translation issue in the article. Games set the APU profile, low or high clocks and that in turn changes the fan profile and lowers noise.
 
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Nickolaidas

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DISCLAIMER: I am a hardcore ps5 fan who has a long history with his really loud ps4 pro and wish to express my concern with the ps5's cooling and fan noise. I don't give a flying fuck about xsx right now.

So the console can be very quiet at launch and when Sony sees the need to change the fan profile due to more demanding games in the future, we can get our beloved jet engine back?
Just half kidding.
With the danger of being accused of being a FUD spreader, that's EXACTLY how I read it.

Who can guarantee that the reason Godfall ran so quietly in that youtuber playtest wasn't because the fans were programmed by a pre-release firmware to run very quiet (to the point it wouldn't be healthy for that console in the long term)?

Who can guarantee that the machine's longevity won't be sacrificed in order to give us the illusion of a quiet console for some months?

This cooling solution was supposed to be a very safe well thought out patent, and in many ways it was, but those 'we'll see how it goes' estimates for future ps5 AAA games worries me.
 
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longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
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DISCLAIMER: I am a hardcore ps5 fan who has a long history with his really loud ps4 pro and wish to express my concern with the ps5's cooling and fan noise. I don't give a flying fuck about xsx right now.


With the danger of being accused of being a FUD spreader, that's EXACTLY how I read it.

Who can guarantee that the reason Godfall ran so quietly in that youtuber playtest wasn't because the fans were programmed by a pre-release firmware to run very quiet (to the point it wouldn't be healthy for that console in the long term)?

Who can guarantee that the machine's longevity won't be sacrificed in order to give us the illusion of a quiet console for some months?

This cooling solution was supposed to be a very safe well thought out patent, and in many ways it was, but those 'we'll see how it goes' estimates for future ps5 AAA games worries me.

It will be down to PS5 rated tdp.

Those who dabbled with PC DIY, will know that you need 1.5kg heavy heatsink with 3x120mm fans to quietly cool those 300w gpu beasts, and that's barely to maintain game clocks at 70c at 38dba, on average, just off my head. And that's with extra couple of case fans pulling and pushing air to the gpu.

Basically physics of sorts. Nature of the beast.

You will need to move to water cooling if you don't want heavy heatsinks and multiple fans on your gpu.
 
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Whitecrow

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Seems kind of bizarre. Why not just have fan curves based on temp? I think this is a lost in translation issue in the article. Games set the APU profile, low or high clocks and that in turn changes the fan profile and lowers noise.
The PS5 approach is different. PS5 wants to adjust fans and clocks depending on workload to ensure the same performance on all consoles without taking into account the enviroment the console is in, aka, the console not downclocking because high ambient temperature. I think.
 
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Three

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The PS5 approach is different. PS5 wants to adjust fans and clocks depending on workload to ensure the same performance on all consoles without taking into account the enviroment the console is in, aka, the console not downclocking because high ambient temperature. I think.
exactly so how would games set the fan profile? Wouldn't the APU profile be set then the fan adjusts to its generated heat?
 
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I doubt the liquid metal, the additional traditional TIM, and that yuge heatsink are cheap for Sony.
So i guess saving money here can be said as managing extra costs. Not too sure why PS5 needed that extra cooling expenses over PS4, as if the design has left much to be desired?🤷‍♀️

As Richard from DF said, Sony is using the old brute force design philosophy.
You saw the V shape dev kits right?
The bigger and more powerful the fans, the more noisy they are. So Sony decided they want more quiet fans, which means money had to be spent elsewhere to dump more heat. And the square cube law means that cooling is harder the more powerful the hardware, this is nor a flaw but the nature of physics. I don't know why you think it is unusual that PS5 need better cooling than PS4; that was always how hardware advancement worked.
 
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cormack12

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DISCLAIMER: I am a hardcore ps5 fan who has a long history with his really loud ps4 pro and wish to express my concern with the ps5's cooling and fan noise. I don't give a flying fuck about xsx right now.

Crazy we have to give disclaimers in these threads to have legit convo's but whatever right?

I thought the point of controlling the power draw meant the thermal limits were always in scope of the cooling solution? Like the cooling solution is always running at max which is quiet unless it's needed to spin slower due to the lack of activity on the chips?

Otori: Various games will be released in the future, and data on the APU's behavior in each game will be collected. We have a plan to optimize the fan control based on this data.

 The PS5's thermal design, including the speed of the air-cooled fans, is said to have a generous margin of safety. If a game is under heavy load for a long period of time, they can increase the fan speed to enhance cooling performance, even at the expense of quietness.

This sounds like it's very much dependent on time under load? Now I don't think this will be issue for years, and it's obviously looking far ahead in the lifecycle I'm guessing. It's more a show of technical capability
 

captainraincoat

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Ok the expansion slot is sounding a little better...now just give us the confirmed list sony.....does my pc get an upgrade to a 980pro or will the ps5 get it
 
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You saw the V shape dev kits right?
The bigger and more powerful the fans, the more noisy they are. So Sony decided they want more quiet fans, which means money had to be spent elsewhere to dump more heat. And the square cube law means that cooling is harder the more powerful the hardware, this is nor a flaw but the nature of physics. I don't know why you think it is unusual that PS5 need better cooling than PS4; that was always how hardware advancement worked.
What? Bigger fan means less noise in practice. You don't have to spin it as fast as smaller fans, plus noise frequency is lower on bigger fans, which is less distracting.
 

Papacheeks

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Seems kind of bizarre. Why not just have fan curves based on temp? I think this is a lost in translation issue in the article. Games set the APU profile, low or high clocks and that in turn changes the fan profile and lowers noise.

Different titles use different engines which react differently in terms of how hard they make the system work. Hence why some games are louder than others on PS4/PRO when you hear the fan.
 

Whitecrow

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exactly so how would games set the fan profile? Wouldn't the APU profile be set then the fan adjusts to its generated heat?
Profiles seems to be set by the system, not by the game itself, and by collecting data, the ps5 may set the profiles for each game in a more optimal way.
This is at least my take on this.
 
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What? Bigger fan means less noise in practice. You don't have to spin it as fast as smaller fans, plus noise frequency is lower on bigger fans, which is less distracting.
No, you don't get it. Sony is aiming for a certain cooling target. And when using regular thermal paste they were forced to use huge fans to reach that target and form the V shape dev kits we saw last year. But seriously, i am not sure what is so controversial about it. PS5 has more sophisticated cooling than PS4, is that suppose to be a negative now? i mean they went though the trouble of coating the damn heatsink in SILVER, because copper wasn't good enough.
 
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Ar¢tos

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Ok the expansion slot is sounding a little better...now just give us the confirmed list sony.....does my pc get an upgrade to a 980pro or will the ps5 get it
Why would you want to get a SSD expansion at launch?
Whatever free space the console has available should last you some good months and when you really need the SSD expansion the list will be bigger and the SSD's will be cheaper.
 

evanft

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So, the PS5 might ship quiet and that might last half a year but even if you get a “quiet unit” and win some fan lottery like the PS4 Pro there’s still no guarantee that your machine will be quiet for certain games... so Sony might have learned nothing from the complaining of the PS4 Pro owners... that’s about right for Sony.

We shall wait and see, but this really cemented the PS5 as a “wait for the slim/revision” until they possibly get this sorted.

The 8mm m2 restriction probably won’t effect many cases it will impact a few M2 drives already on the market, let’s hope they did extensive testing of that expansion slot with ssd under heavy load. This design might become an issue later in the console’s life if the slimmer drives fall out of fashion with the PC crowd.The heat question had an interesting response, they seem confident in their solution.

Something that NOBODY is talking about but I’m hoping there is a solution for, is what happens if the SOLDERED SSD drive dies on either the PS5 or XBOX SERIES S/X,I’m really hoping the case is that it will fail to your expansion ssd and install the OS automatically there in case of fault. Nobody should be without their $500 machine for this reason.

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position, and you can make your machine box shaped if you want, they didn’t do themselves any favours with design saving space with this thing at all if it’s going to be huge why not go with a safe traditional design? This fits with nobodies current designs, unless they have a crystal ball and vulvic design is going to be the new norm. Big ugly boxes work for computers and have for eons. AVRs are massive complicated boxes that are fugly and perform complex tasks today and are filled with heat dissipating designs, surely they could have went with that, at least it would look normal next to one. They’re the girl that just got her tongue pierced complaining about her tongue infection.

This thing has been rushed as fuck. I'm so glad I'm not early adopting :messenger_grinning_smiling:


I'm not drunk enough to deal with posts like this.
 
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Lysandros

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I doubt the liquid metal, the additional traditional TIM, and that yuge heatsink are cheap for Sony.
So i guess saving money here can be said as managing extra costs. Not too sure why PS5 needed that extra cooling expenses over PS4, as if the design has left much to be desired?🤷‍♀️

As Richard from DF said, Sony is using the old brute force design philosophy.
Sure, PS5's cooling solution wich uses techniques such as double intake centrifugal fan, APU cooled in both sides using liquid metal (fist time for a consumer electronic product) via a new patented technique, elaborate heatsink design with silver plated base must look very 'old' and 'brute force', especially to Richard's eyes.
 

mansoor1980

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Did you even read the post? The liquid metal end up saving money. They were able to use a smaller and quieter fan because liquid metal dumps the heat out faster than thermal paste. It isn't about getting the maxium cooling; it is about getting the targeted cooling at the right budget.
how much wud they end up saving with this?
 

Panajev2001a

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fan profile "per game"? That sounds awfully stupid..

get ready for take off!

You can take measure to sightly change the fan speed (Sony has likely checked the noise level with fans spinning at highest and lowest speed given all the “noise” generated on the Internet about this issue) pre-emptively before the thermal sensors activate and may further boost it based on environment conditions.

This could be something that help boost clock to stay to their top configuration for even longer and might make sense why it is per title.
 

Panajev2001a

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Sure, PS5's cooling solution wich uses techniques such as double intake centrifugal fan, APU cooled in both sides using liquid metal (fist time for a consumer electronic product) via a new patented technique, elaborate heatsink design with silver plated base must look very 'old' and 'brute force', especially to Richard's eyes.

Given the video over PS5’s UI I can now see who must have written the content of the article really ;). At the end when John was expressing how excited he was about a fresh next gen UI Leadbetter was looking super bored and ended with a “well, ok we need to end the video here though”. That man... for him having to praise Sony seems to induce stomach cramps...
 
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cormack12

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This could be something that help boost clock to stay to their top configuration for even longer and might make sense why it is per title.

Could it be related to component age? If we're not going to see it for a few years does liqud metal lose any efficiency and he mentions the fan blades are more resistant to warping etc
 

FlyyGOD

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So, the PS5 might ship quiet and that might last half a year but even if you get a “quiet unit” and win some fan lottery like the PS4 Pro there’s still no guarantee that your machine will be quiet for certain games... so Sony might have learned nothing from the complaining of the PS4 Pro owners... that’s about right for Sony.

We shall wait and see, but this really cemented the PS5 as a “wait for the slim/revision” until they possibly get this sorted.

The 8mm m2 restriction probably won’t effect many cases it will impact a few M2 drives already on the market, let’s hope they did extensive testing of that expansion slot with ssd under heavy load. This design might become an issue later in the console’s life if the slimmer drives fall out of fashion with the PC crowd.The heat question had an interesting response, they seem confident in their solution.

Something that NOBODY is talking about but I’m hoping there is a solution for, is what happens if the SOLDERED SSD drive dies on either the PS5 or XBOX SERIES S/X,I’m really hoping the case is that it will fail to your expansion ssd and install the OS automatically there in case of fault. Nobody should be without their $500 machine for this reason.

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position, and you can make your machine box shaped if you want, they didn’t do themselves any favours with design saving space with this thing at all if it’s going to be huge why not go with a safe traditional design? This fits with nobodies current designs, unless they have a crystal ball and vulvic design is going to be the new norm. Big ugly boxes work for computers and have for eons. AVRs are massive complicated boxes that are fugly and perform complex tasks today and are filled with heat dissipating designs, surely they could have went with that, at least it would look normal next to one. They’re the girl that just got her tongue pierced complaining about her tongue infection.
Series X/S ssd isn't soldered to the motherboard like the PS5 is. Looks like Series X/S ssd can be replaced easily if need be.
 

Panajev2001a

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Could it be related to component age? If we're not going to see it for a few years does liqud metal lose any efficiency and he mentions the fan blades are more resistant to warping etc

That could also apply for the system profile rather than the per games one, or just taken care by the temperature sensors, but it gives them one more lever to tackle these issues post launch sure.
 
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geordiemp

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Seems kind of bizarre. Why not just have fan curves based on temp? I think this is a lost in translation issue in the article. Games set the APU profile, low or high clocks and that in turn changes the fan profile and lowers noise.

The fan curve uses temp, a different curve will have a different RPM associated with temp. Same for all consoles.

Same as XSX and ps4 and Xb1, only difference is the curve firmware change is on a game basis rather than system update, the benefit is you can have very low to non existent fan on say watching a blu ray.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Series X/S ssd isn't soldered to the motherboard like the PS5 is. Looks like Series X/S ssd can be replaced easily if need be.

I suspect not to void the warranty or even to get the new SSD recognised (if you can find a compatible model online) you will need to send it back to MS... which you will be able to do with PS5 too, sending it to Sony I mean.

They should have the tools to refurbish it and send it back to you.
 

FrankWza

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Series X/S ssd isn't soldered to the motherboard like the PS5 is. Looks like Series X/S ssd can be replaced easily if need be.
I suspect not to void the warranty or even to get the new SSD recognised (if you can find a compatible model online) you will need to send it back to MS... which you will be able to do with PS5 too, sending it to Sony I mean.

They should have the tools to refurbish it and send it back to you.

did Sony have a choice here? How would we replace this drive? There would be people swapping in an SSD that’s too slow and the system wouldn’t even function properly if it starts up at all. I think the revisions will come without being soldered once there are faster drives out there. And I would not want to have to spend that money anyway, it would be close to the cost of the console for a while. It had to be done this way.
 
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Panajev2001a

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did Sony have a choice here? How would we replace this drive? There would be people swapping in an SSD that’s too slow and the system wouldn’t even function properly if it starts up at all. I think the revisions will come without being soldered once there are faster drives out there. And I would not want to have to spend that money anyway, it would be close to the cost of the console for a while. It had to be done this way.

I was saying this is going to be a similar issue for both as the SSD not being soldered will mostly help MS to service the system at a lower cost when needed.
 
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