-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
New details on the PS5's cooling system: Fan curve can be adjusted per-game via firmware, M.2 slot is actively cooled, SSD size details
- Thread starter LordOfChaos
- Start date
NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
I'm not making assumptions, I'm asking questions. You claimed the XSX cooling solution was more expensive to produce, I was asking how you came to that conclusion. I get that Sony claims that their solution is cheaper, but without knowing what MS pays for their solution it is speculative to conclude one will be sold at profit and one sold at a loss. Especially when they consoles are a sum of all parts.
FrankWza
Member
it Is really shaping up to be with every bit of news that been getting released over the last few weeks. Should be fun going through all the features launch weekend.
This is like people calling these systems plastic boxes or toys. Like downplaying the man hours that goes into each component, engineering, manufacturing etc. come on. They had issues with noise last gen and we’re heading into a 4K gen. They want to make sure the system is cool and quiet.
Knightime_X
Member
Epic!
So it works just like every gpu ever made.
Sony and their R&D... what will they think of next?
So it works just like every gpu ever made.
Sony and their R&D... what will they think of next?
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
Knightime_X
Member
The part where the gpu fan runs harder as necessary the more power that is being produced to keep it cool.
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
How much of the new details were "fans spinning faster produce more airflow"? Afaik, no GPU makes a custom fan profile per game, they're purely temperature based.
Last edited:
Knightime_X
Member
Doesn't have to it's an automatic function.
To me, it sounds like devs don't trust sony's hardware to work as intended, so they feel the need to intervene to ensure everything works the way it's supposed to.
What if some noob indie dev underpowers the fan?
Will the system overheat due to a poor profile or will the system override said profile?
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
...Where do you see dev involvement?
I don't think you understand what's going on here, read the OP again
You also said it worked like every GPU ever before, and didn't answer this
Soo, none?
Last edited:
Knightime_X
Member
You're just looking for something extremely specific that fits in the general purpose of what it's suppose to do anyways.
IE keep the system cool.
Doesn't matter if the fan can do a backflip or a dragon punch as long as it cools it's doing it's one and only job.
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
So none of your shifting claims then.
You went
1) It works like every GPU ever, none of them have per game fan control
2) This is about fans spinning faster when under a heavier load...It's not
3) Devs are involved? They aren't, Sony collects the data and updates the firmware. No dev can set a too low fan profile and roast the system.
4) "It's all just cooling anyways"
Sorry, but you clearly didn't understand what the OP was about in the first few posts and then fell back on it's all just cooling.
Last edited:
TLZ
Banned
Of course. That doesn't mean I make it worse as well. Even if it's impossible, but in that tiniest, 0.00001% chance it will leak at some point in its lifetime, I'm keeping it on its side and not taking the chance.
Knightime_X
Member
What more are you expecting from a profile that simply adjusts how hard the fan blows?
Either MOAR air or less.
It's not magic.
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
And in what way are devs involved, in your understanding?
Last edited:
Knightime_X
Member
Why does any of the fan's function need to be adjusted on a per game basis?
Why can't they just work like they do on anything else?
LordOfChaos
Member
You ever hear the saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Anticipating a coming game load can make for a smoother transition and quieter average by priming the system before a coming load.
So you're not going to answer my question then? Where are game developers in this loop in your understanding of it? You gave the example of some indie dev setting a fan profile too low and roasting the system, I don't think you understood what this is about.
Last edited:
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
We have no clue if the PS5 is actually going to adjust fans per game..
Y'all are arguing about shit that might never happen lol
edit: Where did you get your thread title from anyways? That isn't said in the interview.. he just says they'll be analyzing data, not adjusting fans per game
Last edited:
Knightime_X
Member
You we asking about every gpu ever.
Not like this because it does something far better by working automatically so it doesn't even need it.
And the fact that devs even need to do this is rather concerning.
MasterCornholio
Member
I'm confused it appears that it's Sony that will do this not developers.
Sounds like Sony will be collecting data on the thermals and will optimized the fan based off them. Kind of like there might be parts in the game that won't require the fans as much and they can make them quieter. Like a cutscene for example.
Knightime_X
Member
As long as nothing can possibly fail and the system doesn't overheat then I don't care how its done.
But it just seems funny sony has to reinvent the wheel for some reason.
It's not like ps5 has an RTX 3090 or anything.
But it just seems funny sony has to reinvent the wheel for some reason.
It's not like ps5 has an RTX 3090 or anything.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
I wonder if you can opt out from Sony data collection of your console? If more people do this, less of your personal data is sent to them, which would give them less situations and scenarios to work on fan curves. But it should be automatically opted out by default (if it is an option to begin with)
MasterCornholio
Member
Knightime_X
Member
But will ms need to update the firmware to prevent it from blowing up like ps5 will?No different than Microsoft coming up with that form factor and airflow system.
(Joking)
MasterCornholio
Member
Well they should. Overtime dust accumulates, thermal paste dries out and the bearings get worn. It's normal that years down the line the fan will have to spin harder due to the increase in thermals. If the system doesn't do that it will shorten the life of the console.
LordOfChaos
Member
They don't, which tells me you still don't understand the situation. Developers have nothing to do with this.
Automatic fan adjustment based on temperature or power is fine and dandy. But when you have a fleet of full systems you control, you can go a step beyond that by knowing where high demand spots in games are going to be, and rather than, say, going from 2000 RPM to 4000 in a hard spot, maybe you start pre-priming the system by running it at 3000RPM minutes before a really tough spot, which keeps it cool enough to get through a trouble spot without getting louder, just for example.
You're not confused. Mr Knight is.
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
That's what it sounds like translated. What's not in debate is this is the same as all GPUs (which, wat). We'll see what it actually means, but it's a difference from plain old temperature based fan control.
PS5 will use downloadable updates to control game-by-game fan speed
Plus more on the system's massive chassis, liquid gallium thermal solution.
arstechnica.com
MasterCornholio
Member
You explained it perfectly. The PS5 will adjust fan speeds automatically without developer input. However collecting data on thermals will allow Sony to predict when the fans need to kick in. This in turn allows the cooling to be more efficient because it kicks in right before the thermals increase. That's why it's done on a pet game basis because not all games produce the same thermals in the same type of situation. No idea how anyone can turn an obvious benefit into something to be concerned about.
EliTheIceMan
Member
Very cool
西川善司の3DGE：PS5の作り方、教えます。メカ設計担当者に聞いたこだわりの内部設計
2020年10月7日，SIEが公開した「PlayStation 5」の公式分解動画は大きな反響をもたらした。この中では，液体金属を採用した熱伝導材料など，初めて公開となるトピックがいくつかあった。今回は分解動画に登場したPS5のメカ設計を担当する鳳 康宏氏へのインタビューをもとに，より詳細な解説を行いたい。www.4gamer.net
There's a lot in there so I recommend just using Google Translate, but some translated highlights:
Ale it is detailed, some M.2 SSDs are equipped with heatsinks. Is there any caveat when such SSDs are installed in expansion slots? Mr. Kaoru: The heat sink has a physical design that can be stored as long as it is less than 8 mm in height from the board surface.
The expansion slot has a metal cover, but it is better to avoid contact with it as much as possible.
If a tall SSD with a heat sink is installed, it may interfere with the metal
cover. Chassis and screw holes to assemble the metal cover may be damaged because it is made of plastic. Therefore, as an expansion SSD, it would be better to avoid products with extremely tall heat sinks.
In addition, M.2 SSDs corresponding to PCIe connections are well known that heat generation at high loads is a major problem. Some PC motherboards have heat sinks for M.2 SSDs, but what kind of devices does the PS5 use? Mr. Liu: Two exhaust holes are provided for the expansion SSD slot.
Since the expansion slot is located near the intake fan, it is structured to absorb heat at negative pressure from the exhaust hole.
.....
Otori: We have wanted to use liquid metal for a long time. However, since liquid metal is conductive, if it leaks to the board side, it will cause a short circuit. Above all, liquid metal is highly corrosive to aluminum, which is used for components such as heat sinks. When handling such materials, measures are required for manufacturing facilities. We spent more than two years preparing for these problems.
Although the composition of the liquid metal and the manufacturer of the joint venture were not disclosed, it is said that a common gallium-based alloy is used for the liquid metal-based TIM. However, in the interview, he emphasized that it was a proprietary product custom made by SIE.
In the disassembled video of TIM, you can see a sponge-like component around the APU part. This prevents the liquid metal from leaking out to the board side.
Liquid metal TIM also exists for PC CPUs and is used among CPU overclockers, for example. However, as Otori says, there are problems with conductivity and corrosion. There is even a warning to use copper-based heat sinks in TIM for PCs.
Why did you spend more than two years to use such a difficult material?
Otori: The main reason is cost. In thermal design, you have to put the cost close to the heat source. As a general thermal design metaphor, let's say you spend 10 yen for a TIM and 1,000 yen for a heat sink in the cooling structure of a certain system. If you change to a 100 yen TIM, you can get the same cooling effect with a 500 yen heat sink. In other words, you can reduce the total cost.
Even after overcoming the difficulties in handling and manufacturing, liquid metal was finally used in PS5 to achieve a great effect.
The main heat sink that cools the APU is connected to the board through the A-side shield plate made of galvanized steel plate (SPCC: Steel Plate Cold Commercial). The APU portion of the A-side shielding plate has a square hole in it so that the block part of the heat sink will directly contact with the APU.
Otori: The heat sink is made of aluminum, but the block in contact with the APU is made of copper. However, can you see that this block is plated in silver? This is to prevent corrosion from liquid metal.
As mentioned earlier, gallium-based liquid metals are highly corrosive to aluminum, but copper is said to be able to withstand that. However, according to the tests conducted by the PS5 development team, even copper is not completely resistant to the gallium-based metal used in this project, TIM, so they are also taking measures to protect it with plating.
Cooling the back of the board was more difficult than the surface
The B-side, which is the back side of the machine, has many highlights as well, and the B-side is dotted with reasonably large heat sources such as GDDR6 memory, DC/DC power circuits, and flash memory chips.
How are these parts of the device being treated for heat?
Otori: Actually, we are more concerned with the cooling of the B-side of the device than the A-side. Looking back, it may have been easier to deal with side A because we could foresee the high heat source in advance (laughs). In fact, the B-side has as much heat as a PS4's APU, so we had to cover the B-side. That's why the shield board covering the B-side can be used as a heat sink.
According to Otori, the B-side of the board is not made of galvanized steel, as the A-side is, but of aluminum, which has excellent thermal conductivity and heat dissipation.
The outer side of the aluminum shield board has a small three-dimensional heat-dissipating fin, and the inner side where it makes contact with the B-side has a heat pipe, making it look like a shield board as well as a heat-dissipating plate. This heat pipe is connected to the heat sink mainly for the purpose of heat transfer from the DC/DC power supply circuit. The wind from the cooling fan flows through the shield board and wipes away the heat.
By the way, if you look closely at the inside of the shield board, you can see that the ground surface is coated with gray material. What is this?
Otori: It's TIM. It's applied to the shield board, the DC/DC power supply circuitry, the GDDR6 memory, the SSD flash memory and the part where the heat source is installed. It's used to transfer heat from the heat source to the shield board.
The TIM applied to the shield looks like a round rubber sheet, but it is in liquid form during the manufacturing process. It hardens over time and eventually takes on a rubber-like texture, according to the company. The chips, which are the heat source of the chips, are expected to have a certain amount of variation in height, but this TIM can absorb that variation because it is in liquid form when it is applied.
The fan is made of fiberglass polybutylene terephthalate. The advantage of this material is that it is strong and the shape deformation due to heat is small. The number of feathers is calculated from the balance between the required positive pressure and air volume. Even in a fairly harsh environment, the main body is designed with plenty of room to prevent it from failing.
A thick fan is adopted, and the wind is sent to both A side and B side.
The size of the fan is 120 mm in diameter and 45 mm in thickness, and it is quite large and thick as an electric fan implemented in a game console. This is to achieve a high level of calm by slowly turning the big fan.
...
Otori: Various games will be released in the future, and data on the APU's behavior in each game will be collected. We have a plan to optimize the fan control based on this data.
The PS5's thermal design, including the speed of the air-cooled fans, is said to have a generous margin of safety. If a game is under heavy load for a long period of time, they can increase the fan speed to enhance cooling performance, even at the expense of quietness.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
That's what it sounds like translated. What's not in debate is this is the same as all GPUs (which, wat). We'll see what it actually means, but it's a difference from plain old temperature based fan control.
PS5 will use downloadable updates to control game-by-game fan speed
Plus more on the system's massive chassis, liquid gallium thermal solution.
He didn't say that though. Ars inventing the same non-statement really doesn't change that.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
I wasn't trying to imply it was a bad thing, just that it's the reality of the situation. If we're talking software-wise then you have to designate what you mean by that. Games? Vast majority of 3P games on console are also on PC, including a lot of PC-only games that don't make it to consoles. APIs? Well that depends. With MS sure the APIs will be pretty similar between console and PC. Sony less so, but they are still leveraging PC architecture and designs and their APIs still have to conform with that, particularly in terms of being relatively compatible to allow for easy porting for 3P devs and even their own 1P games to PC platforms.
Functionality really depends; the only thing consoles aren't good at really is productivity and business work. But if we're just talking pure entertainment with games and multimedia, they're pretty much the same and PCs provide more freedom on that front. You can use a PC to play games on, too, so they have similar purposes WRT how modern day consoles are much more PC-like than they've ever been before.
IIRC though with PS3 and PS4 a lot of that tinkering was to the will of the end-user, and sometimes you'd get hardware config adjustments with firmware updates (including features added or removed). But the way Sony phrased this makes it sound like they will be continuously try monitoring and gathering data on cooling settings for end-users on a per-game basis and regularly requesting that data be sent through over to them.
Maybe it will be optional for end-users but it could also be that it happens in the background, but that would require an active connection and also has other implications in regards to privacy.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I mean that there are still many differences. You can't swap out hardware components. There are thousands of applications you can run on windows/macOS/Linux that you can't run on consoles. You're using consoles as mainly an entertainment center for games and A/V content. PCs have a much wider breadth of use cases than entertainment. Nobody does "work" on a console like they would do "work" on a PC. There's still a long way to go before they're "practically PCs".
It just sounds that way. You're making this judgement off of a google translate article. We have no reason to believe it will be that way.
FrankWza
Member
agreed. Another great idea. They know they don’t always have the answers, especially heading into a new gen with a lot of new tech. From their controller to their cooling and pushing 4 k and tempest. Why not have a contingency plan? Must be that arrogance I’m always hearing about but never see.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Xbox gamers still carry the psychological scars from the RROD these cooling systems will prevent that from happening again
Mobilemofo
Member
Smartphones are for doing stuff you can do on your PC. Can flip most apps to the TV and use a keyboard to get shit done. And just with a Huawei. Samsung's Dex is really good now. Consoles are media centers for the most part nowadays, tho my primary use of consoles will and has always been about gaming. Dedicated hardware, for a set price and years of entertainment. Thank you very much..
ShadowWolf712
Member
Hot damn, the block in the PS5 is more solvent than most world currencies.
-dances out of thread-
ColonialRaptor
Member
This makes me wonder if there will be some sort of dynamic res scaling implemented by the api’s running the game’s that will kick in if the console is running too hot to try and give it a break.
It will be very interesting to see if people like digital foundry would test this. I mean if the fan can be variably set then this makes me really wonder.
It will be very interesting to see if people like digital foundry would test this. I mean if the fan can be variably set then this makes me really wonder.
LordOfChaos
Member
I don't think so. Unlike PC turbo boost, the power sharing here is meant to be perfectly consistent run to run, regardless of environment, no variability with temperature. It's either operating fully, or it'll warn you it's too hot to play.
ColonialRaptor
Member
Personally I’d prefer the console to drop pixels than tell me it’s too hot to play... not that it’s going to be a problem for me personally but these consoles have to run in the world where some people live in 45 degree ambient heat without air conditioners. Thus they really need to build in a ~20 degree headroom right? And even then that would be potentially running it right up to the red line so potentially even more?
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
I think 5 °C to 35 °C is a pretty standard operating temperature range given for most consoles overall. If you're in a 45 degree room, do you really want another 350W heat source as well, lol.
I don't think dropping some pixels would appreciably change the temperature. Console's whole reason for existence is a predictable operation too, isn't it.
LordOfChaos
Member
Cooling performance said to be the same vertical or horizontal within margin of error. PS4's and other consoles have usually stayed cooler horizontal, so I'm curious how true this will ring.
MasterCornholio
Member
Cooling performance said to be the same vertical or horizontal within margin of error. PS4's and other consoles have usually stayed cooler horizontal, so I'm curious how true this will ring.
Because of the way heat rises. Really curious to see how it's going to be almost the same horizontally.
All I can think of is that the cooling system is so efficient that it doesn't give the heat time to build up like it does in a more traditional design.
All I can think of is that the blower forces air downwards and the fins of the heatsink direct the air to the exhaust.
Last edited:
LordOfChaos
Member
Because of the way heat rises. Really curious to see how it's going to be almost the same horizontally.
All I can think of is that the cooling system is so efficient that it doesn't give the heat time to build up like it does in a more traditional design.
All I can think of is that the blower forces air downwards and the fins of the heatsink direct the air to the exhaust.
Yeah, like he says many people make assumptions because of the chimney effect, but especially with such a high airflow centrifugal fan that's relegated to margin of error differences. We're also used to talking about PCs, but those have a lot of dead air in most designs, this can design all that away.
Last edited:
MasterCornholio
Member
Bingo that's what makes consoles alot different than PCs. Both systems have a very custom cooling system that you really can't find in your average PC.
LordOfChaos
Member
The title doesn't say games can adjust fan curves, but I can see how you could read it that way. As the quoted article explains, Sony will collect field data from how the PS5 behaves per-game, and can make specific fan tuning profiles in response.
This is a step up from a purely temperature based system in that it can predict coming loads would be one possibility. Say a really high heat producing area is coming up, rather than ramp from 2000 to 4000 rpm in response to temperature, it starts pre-cooling the system more at 3000 rpm and makes it through that trouble spot more quietly, for instance.
FrankWza
Member
Cooling performance said to be the same vertical or horizontal within margin of error. PS4's and other consoles have usually stayed cooler horizontal, so I'm curious how true this will ring.
this is awesome. I thought this would be the case, with both systems actually, that they were built to stand vertically. I don’t want to go horizontally because I would have the system in too tightof an area. I’m going to assume with the size of the system most people are going to have an easier time standing it vertically so good news.