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[brain_stew]

It more of his attitude rather than what he has done, i can’t remember what he said exactly but he wasn’t overly complimentary of the wii,

I don't see the problem with him calling a spade a spade. The Wii was a God awful piece of hardware and such a half arsed effort, surely even the biggest Nintendo zealots can finally accept that these days?

 

[brain_stew]

How so? Not questioning you, just wondering.

Its basically a barebones port of the shitty PS2 iteration of UE2. Miles behind UE2.5x

 

[Wazzim]

133Mhz GPU vs. 166 MHZ of the 6 year old PSP...yeah.
Vram could be a problem later on because of the 3D effects but it sounds fine overall.

 

[lostinblue]

Again, you can easily say "Not making the Wii do <x>, <y>, or <z> was a stupid decision" but the reality of the situation is that everyone suffers the consequences of their action and all successful businesses realign themselves after failures. If Epic feels like they've missed money on the Wii, they'll likely change their philosophy. If Nintendo feels like they've missed money on the Wii, they'll likely change their philosophy.

I think you misunderstood me to a point. it's their attitude. Like you pointed out Crytek didn't go anywhere near the Wii and it's fine, because they never were childish about it, and we could point out iD Software and John Carmack, John Carmack actually wanted to but was unable to... it's fine, they were open about it as long as there was money to do there; Epic wasn't and incidentally they were the only ones actually selling their middleware for it, except it was a laughable unprofessional shitty port for a leading platform, which they actually tried to pass as "enough" for it. In short... they were taking the piss.

iD and Crytek not being able to properly support it... didn't (and their engine's are supported by their games, not by their clients; it's only natural, as smaller companies which they are and even for Epic not to be able to support every platform with games, but EPIC's engines are scalable enough to support multiple systems and they should providing their clients want it; and by clients I mean developers; there was demand for proper a Wii build of Unreal Engine <insert engine>, certainly more than for the iPhone); Epic though had the obligation to, obligation to their clients to be a serious company, not a capricious one.

Of course it's also highly possible to just do your own thing. Crytek is successfully doing their own thing right now. They're not supporting Nintendo platforms. They're not going to. I'd gamble that it's more likely for Crytek to get an iPhone team than a 3DS team. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Let bygones be bygones, really.

You might be gambling wrong. I remember hearing the Crytek's Cevat Yerli saying they actually had Wii development kits and did throughfully testing with them; they're open with what they support even if they're quite a bit tech driven.

I don't think they have a mobile gaming division or immediate plans for it though, but that's a problem that affects the whole western industry, not taking the mobile games seriously. And iOS might seem like the gold rush now, but when they don't get the money they want out of it and the market is saturated they'll go back to what they were doing before. The problem is that they don't think about mobile market in the long range, it's secondary.

I think customers should buy platforms for the games they have, not buy platforms for "potential" and then complain when games don't show up. Any customer who is saying "Boy, I wish <game x> or <genre y> or <company z> was on <platform a>." is really saying "Boy, I like <company z> / <game x> / <genre y>, so why did I buy <platform a>?" as far as I'm concerned.

Epic was still way unprofessional with the way they dealt with it, as they had to do damage control themselves. All of it avoidable if they were professional and considering the Wii is a games console, the more platforms on their belt, a game engine developer the merrier; as more consumers also are.

From a business point of view, I really don't understand why people feel it's so important that all companies participate on either a) every single platform simultaneously, or b) <x> platform specifically. I think companies should forge their own development philosophies and paths, make the games they want to make, and be rewarded for success or punished by failure... and then learn from successes or failures and adapt or modify their philosophies to meet emerging technologies. I'm sure that certain companies leave money on the table--Nintendo doesn't have a tanning salon chain and I'm CERTAIN those are profitable, Nintendo doesn't develop for mobile phones or browser games and thus limits their software revenue in order to promote their hardware, Dragon Quest goes to the biggest hardware install base, Halfbrick make $1-5 games instead of full price ones, Gameloft's entire business model is just to copy successful franchises and stick them on mobile phones--everyone picks a specialty.

Because they're not stricly a games developer but mainly a middleware developer now, and they actually had their turd port available for it, without proper support and well... being a crap build, which ensues a crappy service if you ask me.

Criterion's Renderware wasn't being sold by the time Wii launched and they developed ZERO games for it (but they still give support to any developer that purchased their licence before aquisition by EA), yet their software support to Sega and Midway on the Wii was way better than what Epic ever did for their unreal engine 2.5 shitty build.

As I pointed out in every prior post on the subject, when two people butt heads because of philosophical differences, I don't understand looking at one person and say "How stubborn it is that he doesn't change his mind" and not realize that the same thing invariably applies to the other person. If what you mean to say is that you think Nintendo's decisions are financially correct and Epic's financially incorrect, history will either vindicate you or not and I suspect if you are vindicated Epic would change their tune. In the mean time, I don't see what's wrong with peaceful coexistence.

Thing is, you can't be stubborn when you're a business, and when their stubborness is due to petty reasons all the more reason.

Epic's modus operandi is amateur, flawed and a lot of developers only deal with it because they have to, until they get fed up and show them the finger. The way it never worked on PS3 nuked Square-Enix's The Last Remnant but it also nuked all future projects with it within the company; the whole Silicon Knights soap opera (not saying Epic was in the wrong, but the SK accusations were probably half there) and a bunch of developers switching to their tech or going elsewhere says a lot. They are market leader due to their timing and some well thought out choices (like the licencing and student stance) but they simply have no market vision outside of that, they allow a douche like Mark Rein to use their name a little too much and they're simply unprofessional towards their clients to whom they're offering a service, paid at that.

I don't see the problem with him calling a spade a spade. The Wii was a God awful piece of hardware and such a half arsed effort, surely even the biggest Nintendo zealots can finally accept that these days?

Truth to be told... It's not a bad system even if it's a high-spec variant of the gamecube. The gamecube was awesome and if anything we should be shocked to see that developers often do a worse job on it than they did on the GC.

The dithering should have been fixed though.

 

[XPE]

I don't see the problem with him calling a spade a spade. The Wii was a God awful piece of hardware and such a half arsed effort, surely even the biggest Nintendo zealots can finally accept that these days?

Like i said there is nothing wrong with him disliking the wii, you can’t please everyone and if he believes that it can’t support his software then fine say that and be done, but using unprofessional language suggest something else is wrong, I’m not the biggest fan of halo but i don’t go out my way to insult it or go into halo threads and post negative comments, it doesn’t interest me so i leave it alone.

Now there nothing to suggest that he was a big Nintendo fan or that somehow the wii weak specs has cause him a lot of trouble and screwed up his business plan, so why go out your way to use negative language and call it a piece of shit.

 

[gofreak]

All SGX series 5 cores are fully DX9 compliant and several offer full DX 10.1 compliance as well. They're a more "modern" and feature rich design than both Xenos and RSX.

This may have been the tipping point. The availability of a technical context in which to port, as much as the allure of the market.

It's probably something worth bearing in mind for those thinking Epic would 'have to' put UE3 on 3DS now that they're putting it on iPhone. iPhone's hardware probably ticks all the boxes to receive support. Whether 3DS does might depend how sticky they are about certain things (like post-DX9 style programmability etc.).

 

[brain_stew]

...a feature which 3DS notably lacks,)

Um, no, it doesn't.

Its not a full blown ES 2.O or DX9 compliant device sure, but it has full vertex shading hardware as well as the colour combiner hardware of the Xbox and GCN/Wii. If you class the Xbox as "programmable shader hardware" then you have to class the 3DS as the same. This is without taking into account all the nice fixed function proprietary Maestro extensions, which can emulate the vast majority of effects that you'd use an ES 2.0 device for anyway.

The PICA200 can do anything the NV2A could ever do, and more.

 

[Father_Brain]

Um, no, it doesn't.

Its not a full blown ES 2.O or DX9 compliant device sure, but it has full vertex shading hardware as well as the colour combiner hardware of the Xbox and GCN/Wii. If you class the Xbox as "programmable shader hardware" then you have to class the 3DS as the same. This is without taking into account all the nice fixed function proprietary Maestro extensions, which can emulate the vast majority of effects that you'd use an ES 2.0 device for anyway.

The PICA200 can do anything the NV2A could ever do, and more.

I meant pixel shaders only. What exactly does a vertex shader do, in brief?

 

[Pimpbaa]

133Mhz GPU vs. 166 MHZ of the 6 year old PSP...yeah.

Why are you comparing the Mhz rating of completely different GPUs?

 

[brain_stew]

This may have been the tipping point. The availability of a technical context in which to port, as much as the allure of the market.

It's probably something worth bearing in mind for those thinking Epic would 'have to' put UE3 on 3DS now that they're putting it on iPhone. iPhone's hardware probably ticks all the boxes to receive support. Whether 3DS does might depend how sticky they are about certain things (like post-DX9 style programmability etc.).

Well as has been discussed several times already, there's nothing in the Epic Citadel demo that hasn't already been done on the 3DS. Sure, Epic will have to use the fixed function hardware in place of their own shader code for certain effects but the end result is the same.

Of course, I personally feel the idea of using fixed function hardware instead of Epic's own shader code will be enough to kill any interest from Mark Rein. He's just about the biggest proponent of general purpose hardware in the entire industry, has an unhealthy fetish for software rendering and produced the last great software renderer on the PC. Read any of his publically available presentations and you'll understand what I mean.

 

[brain_stew]

I meant pixel shaders only. What exactly does a vertex shader do, in brief?

Again, it still has "pixel shading hardware" in the same way as the Xbox and GCN did (its probably even more advanced but I haven't really looked into that enough) its just not as advanced as the pixel/fragment shaders of an ES 2.0 or SM3.0 device.

I'll leave the explanation of vertex shaders to someone more qualified than me but be aware that the lack of vertex shaders in the Wii was pretty much the primary reason why the system couldn't efficiently use normal maps with correct per pixel lighting.

 

[szaromir]

Of course, I personally feel the idea of using fixed function hardware instead of Epic's own shader code will be enough to kill any interest from Mark Rein. He's just about the biggest proponent of general purpose hardware in the entire industry, has an unhealthy fetish for software rendering and produced the last great software renderer on the PC. Read any of his publically available presentations and you'll understand what I mean.

You're confusing Mark Rein with Tim Sweeney
Besides, if Epic won't provide middleware, then surely someone else might? Ports from HD consoles wouldn't be possible anyway. Some middleware to allow 3DS/iDevices/PSP2 multiplatform development would be cool, I think.

 

[swerve]

If there is any exciting news to come out of next Wednesday, we're going to get a Nikkei leak over the weekend.

Neo, where are you?

 

[Wazzim]

Why are you comparing the Mhz rating of completely different GPUs?

Trolling :lol

Nah but it really are fine specs for a nintendo handheld.

 

[Gravijah]

Trolling :lol

Nah but it really are fine specs for a nintendo handheld.

They're fine specs for any handheld, from what I've seen.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

If there is any exciting news to come out of next Wednesday, we're going to get a Nikkei leak over the weekend.

Neo, where are you?

I doubt it.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Of course, I personally feel the idea of using fixed function hardware instead of Epic's own shader code will be enough to kill any interest from Mark Rein. He's just about the biggest proponent of general purpose hardware in the entire industry, has an unhealthy fetish for software rendering and produced the last great software renderer on the PC. Read any of his publically available presentations and you'll understand what I mean.

Perhaps he could go that route then
Might even be able to use the GPU for deferred shading of the software rendered output.

 

[brain_stew]

Like i said there is nothing wrong with him disliking the wii, you can’t please everyone and if he believes that it can’t support his software then fine say that and be done, but using unprofessional language suggest something else is wrong, I’m not the biggest fan of halo but i don’t go out my way to insult it or go into halo threads and post negative comments, it doesn’t interest me so i leave it alone.

Now there nothing to suggest that he was a big Nintendo fan or that somehow the wii weak specs has cause him a lot of trouble and screwed up his business plan, so why go out your way to use negative language and call it a piece of shit.

Oh please, quit getting your panties twisted in a bunch. The Wii hardware deserves all the shit it gets (and more), there's just no way for a guy like Mark Rein to describe what Nintendo delivered with anything less than vitriolic language. He'd simply be lying if he said anything less.

With the Wii Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC. If achieving BC is all you feel goes into a good console design then you may not feel the same but personally I feel that there's quite a few other important criteria.

Perhaps he could go that route then t.

The 3DS doesn't even have a dedicated SIMD unit, it'd absolutely suck at software rendering. You might be able to get something like the original UE up and running by going that route, but that'd be about the best you could do.

 

[Gravijah]

Oh please, quit getting your panties twisted in a bunch. The Wii hardware deserves all the shit it gets (and more), there's just no way for a guy like Mark Rein to describe what Nintendo delivered with anything less than vitriolic language. He'd simply be lying if he said anything less.

With the Wii Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC. If achieving BC is all you feel goes into a good console design then you may not feel the same but personally I feel that there's quite a few other important criteria.

PSH MR B_S THE CONSUMER HAS SPOKEN AND THEY WANTS MORE WIIS


;p

 

[gofreak]

Well as has been discussed several times already, there's nothing in the Epic Citadel demo that hasn't already been done on the 3DS. Sure, Epic will have to use the fixed function hardware in place of their own shader code for certain effects but the end result is the same.

Of course, I personally feel the idea of using fixed function hardware instead of Epic's own shader code will be enough to kill any interest from Mark Rein. He's just about the biggest proponent of general purpose hardware in the entire industry, has an unhealthy fetish for software rendering and produced the last great software renderer on the PC. Read any of his publically available presentations and you'll understand what I mean.

I think you mean Tim Sweeney, but yes, this is why I wonder. He made such a big deal (rightly though, IMO) and the generality of the programming model in a post DX9 world and how UE3 was made for this. I think he's concerned with process as much as potential end result, so if 3DS doesn't fit his engine's typical process, it might be too much of a compromise for him. We shall see, as I said earlier, it's very hard to predict.

 

[brain_stew]

PSH MR B_S THE CONSUMER HAS SPOKEN AND THEY WANTS MORE WIIS


;p

People didn't buy the Wii because of its internal hardware design. The system's downturn wouldn't have been quicker and sharper than absolutely any other successful console in history if that was the case.

 

[Boney]

They're fine specs for any handheld, from what I've seen.

Yeah... I really don't know what some of you want/expect.

People didn't buy the Wii because of its internal hardware design. The system's downturn wouldn't have been quicker and sharper than absolutely any other successful console in history if that was the case.

I don't think hardware is the main reason, rather, it was software. Of course, one is the correlation of the other.

 

[Vinci]

You're asking companies who thrives on the ideal of the "blockbusters" model to make humble profits with handheld games. The chances of this happening are slim imo.

It's going to be the small & mid-sized companies (or the "non-AAA budget" as I call them) side of the western gaming industry who will produce the content we desire on the system.

I'm aware of what model they operate under - I'm simply expressing the opinion that the ideal option isn't to paint yourself into either corner. Do both.

 

[XPE]

With the Wii Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC. If achieving BC is all you feel goes into a good console design then you may not feel the same but personally I feel that there's quite a few other important criteria.

BC ? Backward compatibility?

 

[Gravijah]

BC ? Backward compatibility?

Yes.

 

[Ezduo]

How much are 3DS games going to cost to buy?

 

[brain_stew]

I think you mean Tim Sweeney, but yes, this is why I wonder. He made such a big deal (rightly though, IMO) and the generality of the programming model in a post DX9 world and how UE3 was made for this. I think he's concerned with process as much as potential end result, so if 3DS doesn't fit his engine's typical process, it might be too much of a compromise for him. We shall see, as I said earlier, it's very hard to predict.

Personally I feel its absolutely horrifically short-sighted vision in a world where performance per watt is rapidly becoming the only performance metric that matters. Maybe after the utter mess the Larrabee project ended up in (heck, you can add Fermi to that pile of shame as well) it will convince a few to change their minds but I remain sceptical. Dedicated hardware will always have a place in a world where performance per watt matters.

Oh, and yeah, I may have been getting him and Tim Sweeney confused but I think they've both expressed similar sentiments and hold the same general view when it comes to the debate over how much general programmability a GPU design needs. The 3DS hardware design definitely does not mesh well with that approach and vision.

 

[Gravijah]

How much are 3DS games going to cost to buy?

A good guess is 35-40 dollars.

 

[XPE]

Then i seriously doubt that Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC.

what’s more likely to have happened because of the extremely poor sales of the gamecube Nintendo had less money to put into R&D and less money to put into hardware, so in order to make money off the hardware they stuck to low specs

 

[brain_stew]

Truth to be told... It's not a bad system even if it's a high-spec variant of the gamecube. The gamecube was awesome and if anything we should be shocked to see that developers often do a worse job on it than they did on the GC.

The dithering should have been fixed though.

I'm sorry but I feel it was an absolutely a disaster of design and vision for a 2006 home console. My issue isn't even that Nintendo targeted SD resolutions (I think that was the right choice believe it or not) but I don't see why we couldn't have gotten something like a X1300/X1400 with 128/256MB of GDDR3. That would have been so much better suited to the current home console development environment and wouldn't have meant compromising all that much on form factor or power consumption either. They could have still made a profit on hardware like that, maybe they'd have to drop BC but, the GCN's software library wasn't exactly a particularly strong selling point.

 

[WillyFive]

Then i seriously doubt that Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC.

what’s more likely to have happened because of the extremely poor sales of the gamecube Nintendo had less money to put into R&D and less money to put into hardware, so in order to make money off the hardware they stuck to low specs

I thought it was very well known that Nintendo was in a better financial status than their competitors during the Gamecube, since even with then, they still got profits from every unit.

 

[Easy_D]

Then i seriously doubt that Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC.

what’s more likely to have happened because of the extremely poor sales of the gamecube Nintendo had less money to put into R&D and less money to put into hardware, so in order to make money off the hardware they stuck to low specs

What's even more likely is that they were unsure about the success of both the DS and the Wii. Both systems brought something new to the table, the DS had its funky design with 2 screens and a touch screen, Wii had motion controls.

Using lower end hardware would secure a much lower loss if either system had failed.

At least that's what I tell myself at night when I shake my fist in anger at the graphical capabilities of the Wii.

 

[brain_stew]

Then i seriously doubt that Nintendo sacrificed absolutely everything for BC.

They absolutely did. If they adopted a more modern hardware they could have delivered much better performance while sticking to an equally strict cost/power/size budget as they did with the Wii, oh and 90% of the library wouldn't have been subjected to 16 bit rendering either. Third parties could support the Wii using the exact same technology that they were using in their PS3/360/PC projects, they'd just have to target SD resolutions and cut down the texture resolution. That's a lot easier than having to pretty much create a brand new game from the ground up if they wanted to support the Wii which is the scenario we got.

 

[Gravijah]

They absolutely did. If they adopted a more modern hardware they could have delivered much better performance while sticking to an equally strict cost/power/size budget as they did with the Wii, oh and 90% of the library wouldn't have been subjected to 16 bit rendering either.

I'm not entirely sure it was for BC with a relative failure of a system. Though the reason in my head isn't much better, if you catch my drift.

Spoiler

Cheaper hardware, more profits. Laziness, to be honest.

 

[Ezduo]

what’s more likely to have happened because of the extremely poor sales of the gamecube Nintendo had less money to put into R&D and less money to put into hardware, so in order to make money off the hardware they stuck to low specs

Doesn't Nintendo have like a couple billion in a bank somewhere? I'm pretty sure they're notorious money hordes, I doubt the Wii's hardware was for a lack of money.

 

[Graphics Horse]

The 3DS doesn't even have a dedicated SIMD unit, it'd absolutely suck at software rendering. You might be able to get something like the original UE up and running by going that route, but that'd be about the best you could do.

That's one thing the PSP has over the 3DS then.
Yeah I meant something pretty simple, like UE without any lights

 

[brain_stew]

I'm not entirely sure it was for BC with a relative failure of a system. Though the reason in my head isn't much better, if you catch my drift.

Spoiler

Cheaper hardware, more profits. Laziness, to be honest.

It is about BC (and maybe "laziness") though because they could have produced a box that wasn't so antiquated and still received massive profits on each unit sold. It would have just meant ditching BC but if that's the price to pay for a huge increase in third party support and a massive increase in the quality/graphics of first party output, then so be it. The GCN's library didn't exactly represnat Nintendo's finest hour and I doubt many Wii consumers ever made use of the system's BC anyway.

 

[ElFly]

I don't think the Wii design was as much about BC, as it was about keeping the exact same software and assets development from the last generation into the current one. The effect may be the same, though.

 

[brain_stew]

That's one thing the PSP has over the 3DS then.
Yeah I meant something pretty simple, like UE without any lights

Indeed it is. Though once you consider the 3DS has some pretty nice vertex shader hardware, the vast majority of usage cases for the PSP's bulky SIMD unit are taken care of anyway.

I don't think the Wii design was as much about BC, as it was about keeping the exact same software and assets development from the last generation into the current one. The effect may be the same, though.

I guess there's that as well, though why there was any desire for that, I honestly do not know. The fact that developers are now quickly and cheaply adding nice technology and effects to their 3DS games should prove beyond doubt what a short sighted approach that was. Including nice shadows and lighting in your games isn't going to increase your development budget by anything more than a negligible amount.

 

[XPE]

They absolutely did. If they adopted a more modern hardware they could have delivered much better performance while sticking to an equally strict cost/power/size budget as they did with the Wii, oh and 90% of the libary wouldn't have been subjected to 16 bit rendering either.

Let get this out the way i agree with you that nintendo could have done so much better with their hardware for the wii but like you said the gamecube library is nothing to be proud about, so why make a console that sacrificed absolutely everything to play this stuff.

The reason for the crappy specs has got to be Nintendo fear of failure, not knowing if the new control system was going to work and if it went tits up they wouldn’t lose a lot of money.

 

[E-phonk]

I don't think the Wii design was as much about BC, as it was about keeping the exact same software and assets development from the last generation into the current one. The effect may be the same, though.

Yeah, I think one of the things they took in account was the time it would take for all their intern teams to develop software for it, since they knew 3rd party support would be thin. Looking at the last year of the gamecube should remind you how terrible the situation was at that point.

 

[Man God]

It is about BC (and maybe "laziness") though because they could have produced a box that wasn't so antiquated and still received massive profits on each unit sold. It would have just meant ditching BC but if that's the price to pay for a huge increase in third party support and a massive increase in the quality/graphics of first party output, then so be it. The GCN's library didn't exactly represnat Nintendo's finest hour and I doubt many Wii consumers ever made use of the system's BC anyway.

The GCN library is fantastic.

Honestly, I can't blame them for reusing the GCN. It was a underrated system, struck down before its time. The savings they generated are nothing to sneeze at, especially considering it is going to be one of the best selling pieces of home hardware ever and one that always sold for a profit.

Game sales don't lie either; its also one of the best movers of software ever.

 

[Cow Mengde]

The reason for the crappy specs has got to be Nintendo fear of failure, not knowing if the new control system was going to work and if it went tits up they wouldn’t lose a lot of money.

This.

 

[Lonely1]

Lets stop talking about the Wii (yes, Is my most played console this gen, but this thread is about the future!).

 

[brain_stew]

The GCN library is fantastic.
.

Lets not be silly now, it absolutely has the least impressive library of any successful Nintendo console, I honestly didn't realise this was up for debate? I enjoyed plenty of games on my Cube, sure, but to pretend it represents anything more than Nintendo's historical creative low point, is incredibly naive. It didn't even have a decent Mario game ffs! :lol

 

[wwm0nkey]

Hey guys Nintendo actually emailed me back, apparently there WILL be 3DS info for NA/EU on the 29th but they can not comment on what it will be.

 

[Gravijah]

Lets not be silly now, it absolutely has the least impressive library of any successful Nintendo console, I honestly didn't realise this was up for debate? I enjoyed plenty of games on my Cube, sure, but to pretend it represents anything more than Nintendo's historic creative low point, is incredibly naive. It didn't even have a decent Mario game ffs! :lol

Ehh, I'd say N64 and GC are neck and neck.

 

[Father_Brain]

This.

Yeah, I think a desire to save money on R&D was probably a bigger factor than BC - especially since NCL had likely spent plenty designing the controller.

Hey guys Nintendo actually emailed me back, apparently there WILL be 3DS info for NA/EU on the 29th but they can not comment on what it will be.

Do us the courtesy of copy and pasting, if you could be so kind.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Lets not be silly now, it absolutely has the least impressive library of any successful Nintendo console, I honestly didn't realise this was up for debate? I enjoyed plenty of games on my Cube, sure, but to pretend it represents anything more than Nintendo's historic creative low point, is incredibly naive. It didn't even have a decent Mario game ffs! :lol

The GCN library is still fantastic.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

God I just want to see more of Paper Mario.

I'm playing through the first as we speak.