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[Kilrogg]

Lets not be silly now, it absolutely has the least impressive library of any successful Nintendo console, I honestly didn't realise this was up for debate? I enjoyed plenty of games on my Cube, sure, but to pretend it represents anything more than Nintendo's historical creative low point, is incredibly naive. It didn't even have a decent Mario game ffs! :lol

No, you don't understand! It's the last system before Nintendo sold out to teh casualz. It's got a better library than the Wii... Maybe even the DS!

 

[Lonely1]

The GCN library is still fantastic.

But was it worth sacrificing Wii future proof-ness?
Anyway, I believe that Nintendo needs to expand their Western wings to more than mere marketing operations.

 

[Ezduo]

Lets not be silly now, it absolutely has the least impressive library of any successful Nintendo console, I honestly didn't realise this was up for debate? I enjoyed plenty of games on my Cube, sure, but to pretend it represents anything more than Nintendo's historical creative low point, is incredibly naive. It didn't even have a decent Mario game ffs! :lol

Maybe (even though I enjoyed Sunshine) but I don't consider that for lack of creativity when almost every major franchise they brought out that gen had significant gameplay changes from earlier iterations.

 

[brain_stew]

Ehh, I'd say N64 and GC are neck and neck.

As games that I'd want to play in 2010, yeah I probably agree (in fact I think I'd probably put the Cube on top) but in terms of creative output and quality in comparison to their contemporaries there's just no comparison.

 

[blu]

That's one thing the PSP has over the 3DS then.

Hate to be that guy, but: we *don't know* what the 3DS has ourside of the rumored specs. Heck, we don't know what these ARM11s are either - they could just as well be SIMD-equipped.

Yeah I meant something pretty simple, like UE without any lights

Lights are your last issue with software renderers. Texturing and shading ops are much more taxing and fit for a streaming, massively-multithreaded vector-based unit with dedicated data paths (AKA a GPU).

 

[wwm0nkey]

Do us the courtesy of copy and pasting, if you could be so kind.

Keep in mind I made sure they knew I was talking about a NA/EU announcement

Thank you for writing. There will be an announcement on September 29th, 2010 regarding the Nintendo 3DS, however, we have no details regarding what that announcement will be.



Be sure to frequent our official website, www.nintendo.com, for all the latest Nintendo news and information.





Sincerely,


Shane O'Neil
Nintendo of America Inc.

 

[GDGF]

You're confusing Mark Rein with Tim Sweeney
Besides, if Epic won't provide middleware, then surely someone else might? Ports from HD consoles wouldn't be possible anyway. Some middleware to allow 3DS/iDevices/PSP2 multiplatform development would be cool, I think.

Just wanted to point out that one of the premier 3DS launch window titles is a port from HD consoles - Super Street Fighter 4. It even uses the same development engine.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Hate to be that guy, but: we *don't know* what the 3DS has ourside of the rumored specs. Heck, we don't know what these ARM11s are either - they could just as well be SIMD-equipped.

Yup, very true. Sounds like ARM11 has SIMD by default but maybe not suitable for anything other than DSP

Lights are your last issue with software renderers. Texturing and shading ops are much more taxing and fit for a streaming, massively-multithreaded vector-based unit with dedicated data paths (AKA a GPU).

Heh, wasn't an entirely serious suggestion, just trying to find an angle for Epic to get interested By lights I meant at a pixel shading level.

Just wanted to point out that one of the premier 3DS launch window titles is a port from HD consoles - Super Street Fighter 4. It even uses the same development engine.

Hey if you scaled down the graphics enough I reckon you could get a game like that running on the SNES

 

[brain_stew]

OK, this is now the most intriguing post I've seen on GAF in a bit. You're telling me that basically, the Wii has 1/2 the equation where it (theoretically) can do the Unreal (and by extension, some other HD engine's) effects, but it loses out entirely because prominent devs didn't want to deal with TEV's fixed functions for shaders? Or is there more to the situation that just this?

And just out of my own personal interest, what would have been/is the better compromise between keeping one or the other as a focus of the design for Wii's GPU? (Also, just to clear something up, this post of mine sounds like a lot of regurgitating info, but I can barely understand bits and pieces of these discussions and would love to step my knowledge up on this all. So for now, make it simple, please. :lol)

I'm talking about the 3DS.

 

[brain_stew]

Hate to be that guy, but: we *don't know* what the 3DS has ourside of the rumored specs. Heck, we don't know what these ARM11s are either - they could just as well be SIMD-equipped.

Heh, you make a fair point, though I can't say I'm all that optimistic.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

I think people are forgetting the Wii's initial situation. Nintendo had no idea how well the system would take off. They had no idea how well consumers would respond to the Wii. So Nintendo most likely preferred to create a system that had very low R & D in technical hardware as well as having the hardware very cheap to produce so they had a very high profit margin. The Wii is an overclocked Gamecube, a piece of hardware retailing for $99, yet the Wii launched for $250. It was pretty clear from the get go that Nintendo was trying to be as risk aversive with the Wii as much as possible. I'm sure if they even had so much as the slightest clue of how the Wii would play out they would have went with hardware that wasn't so incredibly so quarter-assed

Spoiler

half-assed would required too much effort

. I'm sure backwards compatibility was on their mind but looking at Nintendo's history, backwards compatibility doesn't seem to be that much of a dire requirement.

This is why the DS wasn't cutting edge at the time (even by mobile standards) yet the 3DS is very well designed. I much imagine Wii 2 to follow suite.

Also, a but off-topic but how does Apple manage to merely strip a $800 device and sell it for less than half the price and still make a pretty penny. It can't be just the battery.

 

[Father_Brain]

Just wanted to point out that one of the premier 3DS launch window titles is a port from HD consoles - Super Street Fighter 4. It even uses the same development engine.

I was under the impression that the console versions used a custom engine, not MT Framework. Anyway, SSFIV is not exactly a technically ambitious game - downporting it to less powerful hardware requires literally no changes to anything but the graphics.

 

[Gravijah]

I was under the impression that the console versions used a custom engine, not MT Framework. Anyway, SSFIV is not exactly a technically ambitious game - downporting it to less powerful hardware requires literally no changes to anything but the graphics.

SFIV isn't MT framework, IIRC.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

I'm sorry but I feel it was an absolutely a disaster of design and vision for a 2006 home console. My issue isn't even that Nintendo targeted SD resolutions (I think that was the right choice believe it or not) but I don't see why we couldn't have gotten something like a X1300/X1400 with 128/256MB of GDDR3. That would have been so much better suited to the current home console development environment and wouldn't have meant compromising all that much on form factor or power consumption either. They could have still made a profit on hardware like that, maybe they'd have to drop BC but, the GCN's software library wasn't exactly a particularly strong selling point.

I suspect that part of their reasoning was that they could move a lot of their Gamecube projects over without a whole lot of fuss.

I think that almost every decision they made on the Wii comes from a single point - they were coming into the generation with close to zero third party support, and little expectation of the situation improving. They needed something that they could support entirely on their own if push came to shove.

A beefed up Gamecube met that requirement exceedingly well.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

As games that I'd want to play in 2010, yeah I probably agree (in fact I think I'd probably put the Cube on top) but in terms of creative output and quality in comparison to their contemporaries there's just no comparison.

The Nintendo 64 featured a much more exclusive batch of software, spawning ground breaking first-party titles and a ton of sleeper third party titles that were exclusive.

The GameCube took a big hit in the first-party department (imo), and while it has some big Japanese licensee games, the brunt of the licensee software is not-exclusive and much is shovelware.

 

[sinxtanx]

we have no details regarding what that announcement will be

It would be hilarious if this actually was true
"We haven't got shit yet" :lol

 

[brain_stew]

SFIV isn't MT framework, IIRC.

The 3DS iteration certainly is.

 

[plagiarize]

The 3DS iteration certainly is.

it is. the home console versions are not. just clearing that up.

 

[Vinci]

I suspect that part of their reasoning was that they could move a lot of their Gamecube projects over without a whole lot of fuss.

I think that almost every decision they made on the Wii comes from a single point - they were coming into the generation with close to zero third party support, and little expectation of the situation improving. They needed something that they could support entirely on their own if push came to shove.

A beefed up Gamecube met that requirement exceedingly well.

Basically. People like to look back and ask, "Why didn't Nintendo do this?" or "Why didn't they do that?" But the truth is, they were in bunch of shit when this generation started - at least on the console side of things. All things considered, I cannot imagine things working out considerably better for them with the Wii than they have. I mean, sure, I can fantasize about how something could or might have happened - but realistically, it's phenomenal where they are now relative to where this console generation began. Any mistakes they made, I hope they learn from them - and take what they've learned for this future generation and next.

 

[Gravijah]

The 3DS iteration certainly is.

Good thing I covered my ass and said "SFIV" instead of "SSFIV"!

 

[plagiarize]

I suspect that part of their reasoning was that they could move a lot of their Gamecube projects over without a whole lot of fuss.

I think that almost every decision they made on the Wii comes from a single point - they were coming into the generation with close to zero third party support, and little expectation of the situation improving. They needed something that they could support entirely on their own if push came to shove.

A beefed up Gamecube met that requirement exceedingly well.

the other thing is that they wanted to minimise developers risks in making games for the system.

by the nature of it being SD that decreased the project costs. basing it closely on gamecube architecture also decreased initial project costs for anyone that had coded on the gamecube.

the wii was an unproven gamble. the more expensive it had been to make a game for it then the less third party devs that would have considered it.

i firmly believe that was a big part of the decision. it also kept r+d costs for the hardware down, which makes sense given that the r+d costs for the wiimote must have been pretty expensive.

 

[sinxtanx]

it is. the home console versions are not. just clearing that up.

WUT

oh shit that is awesome, how did I miss that?

 

[GDGF]

it is. the home console versions are not. just clearing that up.

That's right. I keep forgetting that the home versions were custom. The new MvC uses MT I believe though.

It'd be nice if we got a version of that too

 

[antonz]

WUT

oh shit that is awesome, how did I miss that?

Its a big reason why Capcom is coming out so strong graphically right away. They were able to port MT to a 3DS engine.

Companies that have really good scalable HD engines will be so very lucky with the 3DS while Nintendo plays catch up.

 

[brain_stew]

Also, a but off-topic but how does Apple manage to merely strip a $800 device and sell it for less than half the price and still make a pretty penny. It can't be just the battery.

Damn near every aspect of the iPod touch is using cheaper components. From the screen, to the glass, the housing and the camera and much else besides, they're all cheaper components. There's no HSDPA modem included either of course.

 

[Instro]

*email*

Well thats promising, I kind of assumed that we would get NA info in some way or another but good to know that it is confirmed.

 

[Father_Brain]

Basically. People like to look back and ask, "Why didn't Nintendo do this?" or "Why didn't they do that?" But the truth is, they were in bunch of shit when this generation started - at least on the console side of things. All things considered, I cannot imagine things working out considerably better for them with the Wii than they have. I mean, sure, I can fantasize about how something could or might have happened - but realistically, it's phenomenal where they are now relative to where this console generation began. Any mistakes they made, I hope they learn from them - and take what they've learned for this future generation and next.

Their biggest mistake with Wii, by far, was their "if you sell it, they will come" approach to (not) dealing with third parties. That's hopefully not one that they'll repeat with Wii's successor.

 

[szaromir]

I wonder if SC Chaos Theory 3DS will match the glorious Xbox version. I'm itching to replay the game, but I suppose I could wait for the handheld version. Seeing these levels pop out of the screen would be really cool

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I guess there's that as well, though why there was any desire for that, I honestly do not know. The fact that developers are now quickly and cheaply adding nice technology and effects to their 3DS games should prove beyond doubt what a short sighted approach that was. Including nice shadows and lighting in your games isn't going to increase your development budget by anything more than a negligible amount.

Do you think things like that, and this more modern GPU in the 3DS point to a change of mind over at Nintendo? IE basically do you think their Wii successor is going to follow a similar path the 3DS is?

 

[brain_stew]

I wonder if SC Chaos Theory 3DS will match the glorious Xbox version. I'm itching to replay the game, but I suppose I could wait for the handheld version. Seeing these levels pop out of the screen would be really cool

There's no reason it can't but the initial screenshots look to be based off the crappy PS2/GCN iteration so we'll have to wait and see. If they base it off the Xbox/PC version then it could be a fantastic launch title.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Basically. People like to look back and ask, "Why didn't Nintendo do this?" or "Why didn't they do that?" But the truth is, they were in bunch of shit when this generation started - at least on the console side of things. All things considered, I cannot imagine things working out considerably better for them with the Wii than they have. I mean, sure, I can fantasize about how something could or might have happened - but realistically, it's phenomenal where they are now relative to where this console generation began. Any mistakes they made, I hope they learn from them - and take what they've learned for this future generation and next.

Coming into the next generation they'll be in a completely different position. I think the promise of 3rd party support will affect the design of their next console.

 

[blu]

Yup, very true. Sounds like ARM11 has SIMD by default but maybe not suitable for anything other than DSP.

No, I did not mean the DSP ops in the v6 architecture. There are other true SIMD implementations in the ARM world besides NEON (though that one is by far the most advanced).

 

[Vinci]

Coming into the next generation they'll be in a completely different position. I think the promise of 3rd party support will affect the design of their next console.

Well yeah, it damn well better. They've proven they can exist and succeed without support, but they would've made far more money if 3rd parties had actively been supporting the console.

 

[sinxtanx]

Hmm, 3DS portable of the Forever indeed.

Speaking of forever...

TIME IS SLOWING DOWN

 

[brain_stew]

the other thing is that they wanted to minimise developers risks in making games for the system.

by the nature of it being SD that decreased the project costs. basing it closely on gamecube architecture also decreased initial project costs for anyone that had coded on the gamecube.
.

The problem with that though, is that outside of Nintendo, Capcom and Factor 5, hardly anyone had a GCN engine worth a damn. Most GCN (and Wii) games just used ported PS2 technology and suffered as a result.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Well yeah, it damn well better. They've proven they can exist and succeed without support, but they would've made far more money if 3rd parties had actively been supporting the console.

Heh. Sorry about that. Hadn't meant to state the obvious.

Spoiler

People tend to disagree with me a lot when I state the obvious. Usually I put them on ignore after they state that there's no reason for 3rd parties to support Nintendo's next console.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Damn near every aspect of the iPod touch is using cheaper components. From the screen, to the glass, the housing and the camera and much else besides, they're all cheaper components. There's no HSDPA modem included either of course.

I thought that the higher end iPod Touch models use the same CPU as the iPhone's CPU, which I imagine is the most expensive piece of hardware. But I admit it makes sense. My 2008 iPod Touch certainly doesn't feel cheap

 

[Vinci]

Heh. Sorry about that. Hadn't meant to state the obvious.

Spoiler

People tend to disagree with me a lot when I state the obvious. Usually I put them on ignore after they state that there's no reason for 3rd parties to support Nintendo's next console.

If they can make money on it, 3rd parties should support anything and everything that they can. This generation has been hard on most of them.

 

[Vic]

I'm aware of what model they operate under - I'm simply expressing the opinion that the ideal option isn't to paint yourself into either corner. Do both.

If only they were that smart

 

[Boney]

I like my Gamecube..

 

[brain_stew]

Do you think things like that, and this more modern GPU in the 3DS point to a change of mind over at Nintendo? IE basically do you think their Wii successor is going to follow a similar path the 3DS is?

Pretty much, GPUs that are more feature rich and performant than Xenos/RSX are plentiful and available cheaply these days and most developers are incredibly familiar with them. As of next year, integrated graphics will surpass console technology and there's no reason for Nintendo to go with something below integrated graphics.

 

[brain_stew]

I thought that the higher end iPod Touch models use the same CPU as the iPhone's CPU, which I imagine is the most expensive piece of hardware. But I admit it makes sense. My 2008 iPod Touch certainly doesn't feel cheap

All idevices use a cortexA8 (clocked at different speeds of course) but no, that is far from the most expensive component, that's almost certainly the high resolution screen. The iPod has less RAM than the iPhone 4 as well, btw.

 

[ShinNL]

The problem with that though, is that outside of Nintendo, Capcom and Factor 5, hardly anyone had a GCN engine worth a damn. Most GCN (and Wii) games just used ported PS2 technology and suffered as a result.

I don't know what Soul Calibur 2 is built on but that game looked gorgeous on all 3 systems at the time. Even had improvements on "better" systems. It could've been an exclusive for any system and people would believe it. The average effort really dropped big time with Wii.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I don't know what Soul Calibur 2 is built on but that game looked gorgeous on all 3 systems at the time. Even had improvements on "better" systems. It could've been an exclusive for any system and people would believe it. The average effort really dropped big time with Wii.

Wasn't SC2 announced as GC exclusive first?.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

All idevices use a cortexA8 (clocked at different speeds of course) but no, that is far from the most expensive component, that's almost certainly the high resolution screen. The iPod has less RAM than the iPhone 4 as well, btw.

Hmm I see. Thanks brain_stew. You really are the guru of computer hardware.

 

[Man God]

Wasn't SC2 announced as GC exclusive first?.

No.

I still say it looks best on the GCN though, 720 XBOX mode be damned.

 

[apana]

Ehh, I'd say N64 and GC are neck and neck.

Nope the GC is nintendo's lowest point creatively, my friend owned one and while I loved metroid prime, a lot of the other stuff was just meh. Who's idea was it to give Mario a water pack?:lol

 

[Gravijah]

Nope the GC is nintendo's lowest point creatively, my friend owned one and while I loved metroid prime, a lot of the other stuff was just meh. Who's idea was it to give Mario a water pack?:lol

We're in serious opinion territory here.

 

[WillyFive]

Nope the GC is nintendo's lowest point creatively, my friend owned one and while I loved metroid prime, a lot of the other stuff was just meh. Who's idea was it to give Mario a water pack?:lol

Giving Mario a water pack is pretty creative though. It's not something you simply think off.

 

[AceBandage]

Nope the GC is nintendo's lowest point creatively, my friend owned one and while I loved metroid prime, a lot of the other stuff was just meh. Who's idea was it to give Mario a water pack?:lol

The water pack wasn't really what ruined SMS, though.
It was the samey levels and the bleh story.

Also, I want a Battalion Wars for the 3DS.
4 player online.