• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

New Smash 4 Ruleset Bans Duck Hunt and Lylat stages, has DL= BF in stage striking

So this new rule set for competitive Smash 4 just came out around an hour ago with some major changes and as you can imagine just by reading the title, it's had a rather divisive response. Bear in mind this is not set in stone just yet.

Here's the ruleset with the explanations for the changes here

There's quite a bit of changes to the ruleset such as formally allowing coaching or 30 second timeouts and removing Dave's Stupid Rule (a rule that prevented players from picking the same stage they won on), but the one that has received the most scrutiny is the new stagelist. Duck Hunt (A counterpick) and Lylat (a starter) have been banned while in turn Town and City (also a starter) has turned into a counterpick. Dreamland under this new rule meanwhile, would be treated as the same in stage striking despite having several key differences that makes DL stand out from BF (wind, blast zones being smaller, placement of the three tri-platforms being different from BF, and the "pineapple"). In other words, we've basically gone from having 7 legal stages to just 4, less than Melee's 6.

Me personally, I think this new ruleset as it stands now is garbage. It's bad enough that players have even less stage options to choose from but now Dream Land is treated the same as Battlefield despite the clear differences between the two. On top of all that, the new stagelist only serves to help top tiers like Diddy and Shiek, since they lose their worst stages and are more likely to force opponents onto their best stages like Smashville while nerfing characters such as Corrin, Charizard, and Shulk who either liked the now banned stages or are more likely to go to stages that hurt them.

Edit: Update on the stagelist.
 

hupla

Member
Legit thought the dunk hunt dog had been banned when I first read the thread title and did a double take
 

Berordn

Member
DL = BF is a big what to me. Duck Hunt I can at least kind of understand.

What's the justification for Town & City being a counterpick now?
 

ChrisD

Member
You know you dun goofed when Melee has more variety.
And by you I mean whatever group comes up with the rules.
 

Mistle

Member
whenever I watched a smash 4 tourney I was always happy that the community had it in them to allow duck hunt :/

oh and the dreamland thing sucks too.
 
DSR makes for more strategy in sets.

DL = BF is the biggest laugh I've had since Sakurai making Omega stages a thing thinking that's what the competitive scene wanted.

The tree makes it really easy to camp and get some stupidly early kills

Hence stage bans and DSR.
 
Fuck yes!!! As a competitive Little Mac and Pac Man Smash 4 player. These are buffs in my eyes! Wooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shout out to Macnation!
 
Legit thought the dunk hunt dog had been banned when I first read the thread title and did a double take

Didn't have space in the title to make it clear it was the stage not the character. Sorry.

DL = BF is a big what to me. Duck Hunt I can at least kind of understand.

What's the justification for Town & City being a counterpick now?

Basically with Lylat being banned the stagelist needed to move another neutral stage to counterpick status in order to give players a equal amount of bans, and rulemakers decided that T&C was the least neutral of the 4. Personally I disagree since I think it's more neutral than FD but I have bigger complaints with the banning of Lylat and Duck Hunt.
 

Smasher89

Member
I miss the old days, where stuff got banned for being super fundamentally broken (like circlecamping on hyrule) in melee, but times change and I do like that more people are able to access competition. Smash 4 is hard enough with the ragemechanic, so in that I could see it played on omega only for that reason alone, there is sooo much stuff to learn with % in that game concidering the high ammount of characters.

Still believe Quads is the strenght of the game, to bad I've seen less then 10 streams with it, and I'm awake night europe time so I have oppoturnity to watch a ton of american streams :/
The moment when a 4 vs 1 man combo 0 to death starts to be regular, that would be a fun day to watch smash 4!
 

FlynnCL

Unconfirmed Member
My issue with this is that they've pre-emptively banned Lylat Cruise despite a lack of any notable tournament issues (as far as I'm aware) in the entirely of Smash 4's tournament life. Despite me loving Town & City and hoping it stays forever, I've seen significantly more tournament sets ending badly because of the platform that drifts into the blastzone - but that's fine to me.

I know of the issues with Lylat's ledges, but they've yet to prove themselves to have a large, consistent negative impact on any tournament set. Isn't this just fixing a problem that doesn't yet exist?

Duck Hunt was not good and its ban is a lot more understandable considering the stage had a consistent, abusable problem with plenty of data to back it up.
 
D

Deleted member 465307

Unconfirmed Member
What inspires the creation of new rulesets? Is it the meta changing, balance patches, etc.? And how often are new rulesets typically created?

I don't really follow competitive Smash so I don't have any specific comments on these changes, but the fact that these changes appear to be drastic intrigues me.
 
This is as bad as people suggesting to ban Bayonetta. Banning Duck Hunt and Lylat is basically not understanding the concept of a counterpick
 

Crayolan

Member
The reasons for counting Dream Land the same as Battlefield and now being a counterpick seem flimsy. The biggest problem is people SDing due to wind but that's something that's fully in the player's control. Considering other stages are being banned for the tiniest of details this seems silly.

About Duck Hunt, what does being 2D change? The explanation post didn't explain this.
 

jackal27

Banned
Smash 4 has shit stages in general, but especially for competitive play. At this point I'd go for modded stages yeesh.
 

Smasher89

Member
This is as bad as people suggesting to ban Bayonetta. Banning Duck Hunt and Lylat is basically not understanding the concept of a counterpick

We are far from the path that was about using a smart counterpick, now its more about the character choice and just learning the in and outs of a single character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daoLcPGxeyA
A video from the time that Ness had one thing going for him in melee (generally the stage got banned against ness anyway if the opponent knew about it).
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
I don't agree with these bans, Lylat's jank makes recovering more interesting and Duck Hunt isn't the only stage that you can camp on.
 

jackal27

Banned
Meanwhile my Project M build has Dreamland with Pictochat aesthetics. It's not that hard Sakurai (speaking as someone who has made stages). Just port some more old ones over at this point. Holding out for a Switch port.
 
The reasons for counting Dream Land the same as Battlefield and now being a counterpick seem flimsy. The biggest problem is people SDing due to wind but that's something that's fully in the player's control. Considering other stages are being banned for the tiniest of details this seems silly.

About Duck Hunt, what does being 2D change? The explanation post didn't explain this.


2D changes the way certain hitboxes interact, I can't remember the specifics, but it affects Charizards.. fair? It affects his sweetspot hitting. I don't quite remember.

Here's some examples, apparently, not sure if they're still accurate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d3ETnP45go

also, oddly enough, it seems more like choosing flat stages... balance some things out (but really, those are things that should be patched)
 

dan2026

Member
It makes so sense to me why they try in vain to balance Smash Bros when by its very nature its an unbalanced game.
 

jackal27

Banned
It makes so sense to me why they try in vain to balance Smash Bros when by its very nature its an unbalanced game.
I mean you people say this, buuuuuuut we're still playing it competitively and doing just fine so????? Also, I seem to hear the argument "Why not just have fun?" but this literally IS what's fun to us. It's just nice to have options.

Like why try to play MvC competitively then?

Those stages don't all have the same layout, boundaries, etc. I believe. But yeah I don't completely get it either.
 

BitStyle

Unconfirmed Member
Legit thought the dunk hunt dog had been banned when I first read the thread title and did a double take
Same, I was about to say...
As a duck-hunt player, the character certainly isn't ban worthy by any measure.

The stage I can see why though
 
Top Bottom