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New York judge rules Trump must turn over tax returns for hush money investigation

Kittehkraken

Member
Jan 14, 2017
882
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The reason you see it this way is simply because of the way the issues are framed. For example, "Donald Trump considers pulling out of Syria" turns into "Trump is Putin's puppet." The former lays the groundwork for a civil discussion, the latter for a battle royale with flamethrowers as the weapon of choice.

There's a lot to criticize about Trump and his presidency, but I seldom get the chance to do it because I'm pointing out why Dem/media attack #39,471 isn't the hysteria-inducing event it's made out to be.
 
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Hotspurr

Member
Jan 27, 2018
610
762
380
The reason you see it this way is simply because of the way the issues are framed. For example, "Donald Trump considers pulling out of Syria" turns into "Trump is Putin's puppet." The former lays the groundwork for a civil discussion, the latter for a battle royale with flamethrowers as the weapon of choice.

There's a lot to criticize about Trump and his presidency, but I seldom get the chance to do it because I'm pointing out why Dem/media attack #39,471 isn't the hysteria-inducing event it's made out to be.
Really? I think people take the Russia thing and say "oh Russia was a nothing burger so everything from here on out must also be". I've seen Trump defended on here for:

- having a slimey lawyer like Cohen
- having a constant staff turnover
- running around sleeping with pornstars
- having children die at the border due to his policies
- saying there were "good people on both sides" when a young woman died in a clash between Antifa and neo Nazis
- tax cuts not paying for themselves
- encouraging a crowd chanting "send her back"
- using a marker to chart out hurricane paths
- literally asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden
- not releasing his taxes which has been done by every president for many decades
- scamming many people with "Trump University"
- cozying up to Putin and Kim
- blatantly spreading false information about how nuclear tensions with NK have eased
- ruining relationships with European nations
- saying climate change is a hoax created by China, and signalling to the world that it's not important by pulling out of Paris
- acting like an imbicile on Twitter
- growing the deficit by nearly a trillion this year alone

Yeah, all of this is just "dem hysteria!!". On paper he's a garbage president and a garbage human being. But I can see how more simple minded folks would fall for his hand waving, lip pouting, and very perfect rhetoric. He has tremendous tweets, really the bestest, no tweets are better. This has been the greatest tweeting presidency the world has ever seen, with the greatest, most tremendous flock of sheep screeching "orange man good". It's not surprise he basically thinks he's the second coming of Jesus. The weak minded always need something to worship.
 

betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
625
638
335
Really? I think people take the Russia thing and say "oh Russia was a nothing burger so everything from here on out must also be". I've seen Trump defended on here for:

- having a slimey lawyer like Cohen
- having a constant staff turnover
- running around sleeping with pornstars
- having children die at the border due to his policies
- saying there were "good people on both sides" when a young woman died in a clash between Antifa and neo Nazis
- tax cuts not paying for themselves
- encouraging a crowd chanting "send her back"
- using a marker to chart out hurricane paths
- literally asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden
- not releasing his taxes which has been done by every president for many decades
- scamming many people with "Trump University"
- cozying up to Putin and Kim
- blatantly spreading false information about how nuclear tensions with NK have eased
- ruining relationships with European nations
- saying climate change is a hoax created by China, and signalling to the world that it's not important by pulling out of Paris
- acting like an imbicile on Twitter
- growing the deficit by nearly a trillion this year alone

Yeah, all of this is just "dem hysteria!!". On paper he's a garbage president and a garbage human being. But I can see how more simple minded folks would fall for his hand waving, lip pouting, and very perfect rhetoric. He has tremendous tweets, really the bestest, no tweets are better. This has been the greatest tweeting presidency the world has ever seen, with the greatest, most tremendous flock of sheep screeching "orange man good". It's not surprise he basically thinks he's the second coming of Jesus. The weak minded always need something to worship.
See, the thing is, you can really argue about some points. But most points just show an overwhelming bias and from my own experience i would bet that you are really convinced, that you're objective and your view is the only layer of reality that exists. You can really say what you want about leftists, that most are emotional, immune to critical thinking or absolutey not able to process facts based on logic. These things may only be true for 90 percent of these people. But as sure as day follows night, you guys are so damn predictable, that sometimes i wonder if in 2020 the Democrats reveal that in reality they're an oldschool 4chan trolling squad.
 
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Hotspurr

Member
Jan 27, 2018
610
762
380
See, the thing is, you can really argue about some points. But most points just show an overwhelming bias and from my own experience i would bet that you are really convinced, that you're objective and your view is the only layer of reality that exists. You can really say what you want about leftists, that most are emotional, immune to critical thinking or absolutey not able to process facts based on logic. These things may only be true for 90 percent of these people. But as sure as day follows night, you guys are so damn predictable, that sometimes i wonder if in 2020 the Democrats reveal that in reality they're an oldschool 4chan trolling squad.
By all means, point out my subjectivity and try painting the points I've listed in a good light. I'd love to see how "most" of what I wrote is very biased. Who knows, you may even change my mind ;)

As for "leftists", what exactly does that mean? Are you just conveniently trying to put people in a box and then dismiss them based on some made up shared characteristics that may or may not apply? That's one way to debate, I suppose. You really know nothing about me, save for the fact that I've effectively triggered you compelling you to defend your hero.
 
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betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
625
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By all means, point out my subjectivity and try painting the points I've listed in a good light. I'd love to see how "most" of what I wrote is very biased. Who knows, you may even change my mind ;)
If you want to put or see people in a bad light, there are infinite possibilities to do so. That's true for absolutely everybody.

But it's not about putting all the points you've listed in a good light. It is about facts, that prove that Trump is indeed a bad president who mainly brings pain and suffering to the people while at the same time doing nothing good.

Furthermore, and way more important, it is extremely important to put things into context. Almost all of your points lack context and are not negative for Trump, if put into the right context based on reality. I do not blame you for not doing this. You're probably just another guy who derives his own opinion mainly from other opinions and here already lies the problem. Opinions are not facts and therefore they're rarely logical nor objective. Of course that is not only true for the left, but also for the right and whatever is in-between these two artifical labels. In short, politically you probably live in an echo chamber. I encourage you to take a step back and widen your horizon of sources, which you use to form your own opinion. I'm not saying that you should only read/watch right-wing (or left-wing) media, but to use both accompanied by your own critical thinking.

Don't worry if you will do this. You will still be a leftist, but you will be accompanied by common sense and a world view, that is just so much closer the what our world actually really looks like.



As for "leftists", what exactly does that mean? Are you just conveniently trying to put people in a box and then dismiss them based on some made up shared characteristics that may or may not apply? That's one way to debate, I suppose. You really know nothing about me, save for the fact that I've effectively triggered you compelling you to defend your hero.
I don't care about Trump. I really do not. I can accept other views and opinions, as long as they're somehow have a firm grasp on reality. You're right of course, i don't know if you are a leftist or not. But the list you have provided highly indicates that...so either that or you're a complete moron in general.
 
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Hotspurr

Member
Jan 27, 2018
610
762
380
If you want to put or see people in a bad light, there are infinite possibilities to do so. That's true for absolutely everybody.

But it's not about putting all the points you've listed in a good light. It is about facts, that prove that Trump is indeed a bad president who mainly brings pain and suffering to the people while at the same time doing nothing good.

Furthermore, and way more important, it is extremely important to put things into context. Almost all of your points lack context and are not negative for Trump, if put into the right context based on reality. I do not blame you for not doing this. You're probably just another guy who derives his own opinion mainly from other opinions and here already lies the problem. Opinions are not facts and therefore they're rarely logical nor objective. Of course that is not only true for the left, but also for the right and whatever is in-between these two artifical labels. In short, politically you probably live in an echo chamber. I encourage you to take a step back and widen your horizon of sources, which you use to form your own opinion. I'm not saying that you should only read/watch right-wing (or left-wing) media, but to use both accompanied by your own critical thinking.

Don't worry if you will do this. You will still be a leftist, but you will be accompanied by common sense and a world view, that is just so much closer the what our world actually really looks like.





I don't care about Trump. I really do not. I can accept other views and opinions, as long as they're somehow have a firm grasp on reality. You're right of course, i don't know if you are a leftist or not. But the list you have provided highly indicates that...so either that or you're a complete moron in general.
You've literally just repeated yourself, mostly attacking my character, and have not offered any points of debate. Cowardly behavior won't compel people to agree with you.
 

betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
625
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You've literally just repeated yourself, mostly attacking my character, and have not offered any points of debate. Cowardly behavior won't compel people to agree with you.
Being a moron is not a character feat.

Besides that i've already given you plenty of reasons why most of your points are nonsense. Summary: it is called context.
 

Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,076
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Really? I think people take the Russia thing and say "oh Russia was a nothing burger so everything from here on out must also be". I've seen Trump defended on here for:

- having a slimey lawyer like Cohen Yeah, agreed
- having a constant staff turnover True, though to be expected
- running around sleeping with pornstars True, not good
- having children die at the border due to his policies False. People die everyday, everywhere. Making an illegal, unsafe journey can make it worse.
- saying there were "good people on both sides" when a young woman died in a clash between Antifa and neo Nazis False. The transcript is available online. He was specifically not talking about any violent groups in regards to "both people". Intentionally misquoted in media stories.
- tax cuts not paying for themselves True/False. I lean toward them never paying themselves off. Depends on POV.
- encouraging a crowd chanting "send her back"
- using a marker to chart out hurricane paths
- literally asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden True/False. Asking a country to continue corruption investigation is fine, no matter the target. At worst could be considered basic oppo research. Much, much, MUCH worse is done daily in other political campaigns. Blown way out of proportion.
- not releasing his taxes which has been done by every president for many decades True, though not a legal requirement. A completely different President would naturally do things differently.
- scamming many people with "Trump University"
- cozying up to Putin and Kim False. Trump admin has been hard on Russia. Trump personally gives out platitudes to try and improve relations with adversaries he wants to influence.
- blatantly spreading false information about how nuclear tensions with NK have eased
- ruining relationships with European nations True/False. The NATO alliance/global order is 30 years out of date. Ruining relationships with allies who act as anchors is a good thing. We don't need to have our grubby paws all over the world where our interests do not lie.
- saying climate change is a hoax created by China, and signalling to the world that it's not important by pulling out of Paris True. However, the US is still leading the world in emissions reductions. Almost all countries who signed on to the PCA have either nowhere near met the goals, or just signed on to next to nothing that they planned on doing anyway
- acting like an imbicile on Twitter True, not something I like
- growing the deficit by nearly a trillion this year alone True. Deficits are going to be remaining high until the boomers die off (sorry boomers).

Yeah, all of this is just "dem hysteria!!". On paper he's a garbage president and a garbage human being. But I can see how more simple minded folks would fall for his hand waving, lip pouting, and very perfect rhetoric. He has tremendous tweets, really the bestest, no tweets are better. This has been the greatest tweeting presidency the world has ever seen, with the greatest, most tremendous flock of sheep screeching "orange man good". It's not surprise he basically thinks he's the second coming of Jesus. The weak minded always need something to worship.
I added comments to things on your list I agree/disagree with, if you feel like responding. I'll leave stuff I either don't care about or am ignorant of blank.

I'd like for people here on the forum to get to a place where we can at least somewhat shove partisanship to the side and just talk to each other. Just say what we believe in and discuss it. We don't need to constantly be after each other in every political topic.
 
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Hotspurr

Member
Jan 27, 2018
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I added comments to things on your list I agree/disagree with, if you feel like responding. I'll leave stuff I either don't care about or am ignorant of blank.

I'd like for people here on the forum to get to a place where we can at least somewhat shove partisanship to the side and just talk to each other. Just say what we believe in and discuss it. We don't need to constantly be after each other in every political topic.
I'll address the red bits.

As for the border deaths, there are two aspects. There is data on total deaths in detention, and from 2010-2015 there has been a downward trend, or at least relatively flat. In 2017 there is a rather large spike coinciding with when the administration started implementing their policy. So while I understand that deaths in detention have happened before, I clearly see a link between his policies and what happened. The per capita rates were at around 2.5 or below for the last 10 years, and jumped to 3.7 in 2017. Granted they fell back to normal levels in 2018 likely when the administration had to backpedal a bit.

Second, and perhaps more severe, is the zero tolerance policy on border crossings. There are people who are legitimately seeking asylum and who need to make the trek. But now in order to seek asylum legally they must cross at designated areas, which leads to a harsher journey and more likely to die from heat stress. So to me this is direct evidence of Trump policies resulting in pain and suffering.

As for the charlotsville incident, I can buy from the full quote that he indeed only referred to the non-neo Nazi or Antifa crowd. The problem is that there were plenty of people who were perfectly fine taking sides in what transpired as things heated up, even if it meant siding with Antifa or the neo Nazis. The fact that he chose to defend people rather than admonish both sides for letting things get out of hand is idiotic. I could never imagine another president who understood the complexity of the situation choosing to say something so foolish.

Finally, with Russia. Russia has already been getting hammered by the US previously. If Russia is bad, and the US is hammering it, then there is no way that Putin is such an idiot that he will accept any platitudes. Trump is sending a bad message to the rest of the world by saying good things about him. The US needs to take a firm stance on this and not flip flop by alternating praise and sanctions. It doesn't make sense.
 

Solomeena

Member
Jan 8, 2018
1,182
1,582
395
People white knighting for Trump is basically why I come to the politics section. Anytime you see any criticism there is a line of sworn defenders screaming "orange man good!!" at the top of their lungs. It's both pathetic and amusing. Kind of reminds me how some men will become self proclaimed feminists and run around defending women's rights by uttering nonesense like the gender gap, or the idiots that scream that gender is a social construct when dealing with all sorts of trans related social issues.

I wish the gaming section was this exciting. :(
And people like you who cry yourself to sleep every night because Trump is our legally elected President and all you care about is trying to frame Trump for anything illegal so you can impeach him so your precious SJW's don't throw a temper tantrum for another 4 years when he wins another election. You have Trump Derangement Syndrome and because why? For reasons.....see how easy it is to flip your bullshit back onto you?


Really? I think people take the Russia thing and say "oh Russia was a nothing burger so everything from here on out must also be". I've seen Trump defended on here for:

- having a slimey lawyer like Cohen
- having a constant staff turnover
- running around sleeping with pornstars
- having children die at the border due to his policies
- saying there were "good people on both sides" when a young woman died in a clash between Antifa and neo Nazis
- tax cuts not paying for themselves
- encouraging a crowd chanting "send her back"
- using a marker to chart out hurricane paths
- literally asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden
- not releasing his taxes which has been done by every president for many decades
- scamming many people with "Trump University"
- cozying up to Putin and Kim
- blatantly spreading false information about how nuclear tensions with NK have eased
- ruining relationships with European nations
- saying climate change is a hoax created by China, and signalling to the world that it's not important by pulling out of Paris
- acting like an imbicile on Twitter
- growing the deficit by nearly a trillion this year alone

Yeah, all of this is just "dem hysteria!!". On paper he's a garbage president and a garbage human being. But I can see how more simple minded folks would fall for his hand waving, lip pouting, and very perfect rhetoric. He has tremendous tweets, really the bestest, no tweets are better. This has been the greatest tweeting presidency the world has ever seen, with the greatest, most tremendous flock of sheep screeching "orange man good". It's not surprise he basically thinks he's the second coming of Jesus. The weak minded always need something to worship.
Yeah, you are ignorant as fuck with this statement right here. You are not interested in a dialogue at all. You are just here to stir up shit and push your little SJW agenda.
 
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Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,076
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I'll address the red bits.

As for the border deaths, there are two aspects. There is data on total deaths in detention, and from 2010-2015 there has been a downward trend, or at least relatively flat. In 2017 there is a rather large spike coinciding with when the administration started implementing their policy. So while I understand that deaths in detention have happened before, I clearly see a link between his policies and what happened. The per capita rates were at around 2.5 or below for the last 10 years, and jumped to 3.7 in 2017. Granted they fell back to normal levels in 2018 likely when the administration had to backpedal a bit.

Second, and perhaps more severe, is the zero tolerance policy on border crossings. There are people who are legitimately seeking asylum and who need to make the trek. But now in order to seek asylum legally they must cross at designated areas, which leads to a harsher journey and more likely to die from heat stress. So to me this is direct evidence of Trump policies resulting in pain and suffering.

As for the charlotsville incident, I can buy from the full quote that he indeed only referred to the non-neo Nazi or Antifa crowd. The problem is that there were plenty of people who were perfectly fine taking sides in what transpired as things heated up, even if it meant siding with Antifa or the neo Nazis. The fact that he chose to defend people rather than admonish both sides for letting things get out of hand is idiotic. I could never imagine another president who understood the complexity of the situation choosing to say something so foolish.

Finally, with Russia. Russia has already been getting hammered by the US previously. If Russia is bad, and the US is hammering it, then there is no way that Putin is such an idiot that he will accept any platitudes. Trump is sending a bad message to the rest of the world by saying good things about him. The US needs to take a firm stance on this and not flip flop by alternating praise and sanctions. It doesn't make sense.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I can respect your opinion, though we seem to disagree on a few issues.

On border deaths/issues:
There is a lot of hyperbole surrounding the issue, but I would say a change of 2.3, 2.8, 3.7, 2.3 (2015, 2016, 2017, 2018) per 100,000 is not a significant issue. The rate of deaths in detention was much higher in general in the early 2000's, as well. As a side issue, I'd argue that being an immigrant in detention is safer than being a regular person living in the US, as the general death rate per 100,000 (same measure) is at 3.85.

Zero tolerance/port of entry is, in my opinion, a legitimate response to an exploitation of a loophole. Allowing people free entry at any point across an enormous border, and a verbal, unverifiable claim of asylum being available to anyone, coupled with the ability to easily disappear into the interior of the country leads to de facto open borders. Forcing genuine asylum seekers to come via a port of entry eliminates that, and allow enforcement agents to more easily target smuggling and human trafficking operations, as legitimate asylum seekers will not be mixing with the smugglers and human traffickers along the open borders. This should remain relatively neutral regarding normal (ha) illegal crossings, as I assume people will still be opting to risk dying crossing the desert, getting killed by coyotes, dying while smuggling drugs, etc.

On Charlottesville:
I really don't have an issue with what he said, at all. However, I'm really not a fan in general of Presidents addressing hot-button but ultimately pointless issues, like the event in question. Frankly it wasn't a national issue at all. I hate when Trump has to trot out and give some platitude about Charlottesville, or some shooting...I hated when Obama felt the need to talk about how Trayvon could have been his son, or butted in because his friend got sassy with a cop (the dumb beer thing), I hated when Bush Jr. had to go up and give a vague speech about faith every time something happened. We're a country of 350+ million people. A couple people dying, or someone saying something mean just isn't national news that the President needs to respond to. I'm not trying to be glib, but I think we expect things out of our modern Presidents that they really have no business doing in the first place.

On Russia/foreign policy:
With Russia in particular, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain by staying at least somewhat amicable with them. They are already in a losing position in geopolitical terms. Their decline is already hard set in, and there is no stopping that. They have an enormous border to defend on multiple sides, and a population that is set to shrink ENORMOUSLY within the next generation. Their ability for force projection is literally shrinking by the day. The Cold War is long over, and they are no longer the most dire threat. They do remain a threat, and are currently antagonistic toward the US in general. Remaining opposed to their strategic goals (we are), while not expressing constant hatred for them (what is to gain?) is the way to go. We need to keep at least some small door open for diplomacy with them, as their empire crumbles in the coming generation. There is going to be a LOT of armaments that are going to leak out into the world otherwise, much worse than when the SSR's all fell. So, in my opinion the way to go is to remain in opposition, but not antagonistic.

In regards to broader foreign policy, I would like to see our military presence lessen overseas. Most of our gameplan and infrastructure is just leftovers from the Cold War, and doesn't make sense for the current reality.
 
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Joe T.

Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Really? I think people take the Russia thing and say "oh Russia was a nothing burger so everything from here on out must also be". I've seen Trump defended on here for:

- having a slimey lawyer like Cohen
- having a constant staff turnover
- running around sleeping with pornstars
- having children die at the border due to his policies
- saying there were "good people on both sides" when a young woman died in a clash between Antifa and neo Nazis
- tax cuts not paying for themselves
- encouraging a crowd chanting "send her back"
- using a marker to chart out hurricane paths
- literally asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden
- not releasing his taxes which has been done by every president for many decades
- scamming many people with "Trump University"
- cozying up to Putin and Kim
- blatantly spreading false information about how nuclear tensions with NK have eased
- ruining relationships with European nations
- saying climate change is a hoax created by China, and signalling to the world that it's not important by pulling out of Paris
- acting like an imbicile on Twitter
- growing the deficit by nearly a trillion this year alone

Yeah, all of this is just "dem hysteria!!". On paper he's a garbage president and a garbage human being. But I can see how more simple minded folks would fall for his hand waving, lip pouting, and very perfect rhetoric. He has tremendous tweets, really the bestest, no tweets are better. This has been the greatest tweeting presidency the world has ever seen, with the greatest, most tremendous flock of sheep screeching "orange man good". It's not surprise he basically thinks he's the second coming of Jesus. The weak minded always need something to worship.
Food for thought: If a rural voter with only a high school diploma and a Harvard graduate with a master's degree are given the same misleading news story, but only the Harvard graduate falls victim to it is he/she the smarter of the two?

Life isn't as simple as we often make it sound. If you want to understand, truly understand, Trump's appeal you'll make the effort to discuss him and the issues with his supporters rather than dismissing them all as simple/weak-minded people that aren't worth your time.

The Russia "thing" was always worth covering, just not in the tabloid-like, heavily partisan manner it was done.

I had two massive problems with the Russian collusion investigation and only one of them is being adequately addressed: the flimsy foundation of evidence used to get it off the ground and the manner by which it was collected. The other that was largely ignored by the media was the "meat" of the election interference, the fake/bot accounts and ads used over social media. There was some good coverage of this by at least a few online sources, but it got brushed aside and buried with everything else that was being reported at the time.

There's plenty of evidence to suggest there's still a large segment of the population that doesn't understand how the Russians interfered with the 2016 election and how they can prevent themselves from falling victim to it again. Had the media spent more time talking about that interference then something like the Covington story wouldn't have conned so many people. That edited video was spread by an account that should have given everyone reason for pause just by virtue of how often it was posting and how much of its content was inflammatory, later revealed to be a fake using another person's photo.

Teaching people to exercise a healthy dose of skepticism and to scrutinize their sources of information is an invaluable lesson, better to hammer that point home than "Don Jr. might be going to jail next week/next year/someday?" Then again, media sources misleading/lying to their audiences practically every day can't be expected to deliver that message or they'd have to change the way they report the news. The stupider and more gullible we are, the less work they have to do.

As for the list of issues you've seen defended, that goes back to framing. "Why do they defend it?" should be the question you ask yourself and that often comes down to the way you're presenting the issue. "Cohen's a slimey lawyer" is something most people can probably agree with, for example, including his supporters, but you start off on the wrong foot if you say "Trump's stupid for hiring Cohen."

And yeah, there has been an absurd amount of hysteria regarding Trump's presidency that I wish I could say was reserved to MSNBC. The women's march, the "Muslim ban" protests at airports, the Kavanaugh insanity painting him as a gang rapist that would be responsible for repealing Roe v Wade... I used to love seeing the anti-Trump crowd use the line "You're on the wrong side of history" because I know some of them will eventually look back and realize that madness had more to do with polarization and irresponsible, partisan reporting than the hard facts. Or maybe I'm wrong and Trump will become a dictator that gets millions of Americans killed in a new civil war like someone at Reset told me a while back. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
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Food for thought: If a rural voter with only a high school diploma and a Harvard graduate with a master's degree are given the same misleading news story, but only the Harvard graduate falls victim to it is he/she the smarter of the two?
For years I have felt that arrogance and hubris are devaluing higher educations for countless people. Every single story about safe spaces, cancelled speakers, trigger warnings, have collectively made this very obvious. Educating the participation trophy generation is less a profession, and more of a racket these days. Countless young adults graduate with six figure debt, but almost no marketable skills (for jobs that let them pay the debt without living in poverty) beyond winning twitter virtue points, for whatever that is worth. Yet they still love to regurgitate the spoon fed indoctrination they pledged a lifetime of monthly payments to. Why? In my opinion, arrogance and hubris is the answer.
 

betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
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Food for thought: If a rural voter with only a high school diploma and a Harvard graduate with a master's degree are given the same misleading news story, but only the Harvard graduate falls victim to it is he/she the smarter of the two?
Great question and in it's core it shows a great perceptual flaw in today's society. Social and emotional intelligence have nothing do to with "common" intelligence, aka the ability to apply knowledge and skills. That's also a reason for why you can have Havard or whatever graduates in high positions (enterprises, politics, you name it) who are still dumb as fuck when it comes to situations, that require empathy and a high social and emotional intelligence.
 
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Hotspurr

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Jan 27, 2018
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Food for thought: If a rural voter with only a high school diploma and a Harvard graduate with a master's degree are given the same misleading news story, but only the Harvard graduate falls victim to it is he/she the smarter of the two?

Life isn't as simple as we often make it sound. If you want to understand, truly understand, Trump's appeal you'll make the effort to discuss him and the issues with his supporters rather than dismissing them all as simple/weak-minded people that aren't worth your time.

The Russia "thing" was always worth covering, just not in the tabloid-like, heavily partisan manner it was done.

I had two massive problems with the Russian collusion investigation and only one of them is being adequately addressed: the flimsy foundation of evidence used to get it off the ground and the manner by which it was collected. The other that was largely ignored by the media was the "meat" of the election interference, the fake/bot accounts and ads used over social media. There was some good coverage of this by at least a few online sources, but it got brushed aside and buried with everything else that was being reported at the time.

There's plenty of evidence to suggest there's still a large segment of the population that doesn't understand how the Russians interfered with the 2016 election and how they can prevent themselves from falling victim to it again. Had the media spent more time talking about that interference then something like the Covington story wouldn't have conned so many people. That edited video was spread by an account that should have given everyone reason for pause just by virtue of how often it was posting and how much of its content was inflammatory, later revealed to be a fake using another person's photo.

Teaching people to exercise a healthy dose of skepticism and to scrutinize their sources of information is an invaluable lesson, better to hammer that point home than "Don Jr. might be going to jail next week/next year/someday?" Then again, media sources misleading/lying to their audiences practically every day can't be expected to deliver that message or they'd have to change the way they report the news. The stupider and more gullible we are, the less work they have to do.

As for the list of issues you've seen defended, that goes back to framing. "Why do they defend it?" should be the question you ask yourself and that often comes down to the way you're presenting the issue. "Cohen's a slimey lawyer" is something most people can probably agree with, for example, including his supporters, but you start off on the wrong foot if you say "Trump's stupid for hiring Cohen."

And yeah, there has been an absurd amount of hysteria regarding Trump's presidency that I wish I could say was reserved to MSNBC. The women's march, the "Muslim ban" protests at airports, the Kavanaugh insanity painting him as a gang rapist that would be responsible for repealing Roe v Wade... I used to love seeing the anti-Trump crowd use the line "You're on the wrong side of history" because I know some of them will eventually look back and realize that madness had more to do with polarization and irresponsible, partisan reporting than the hard facts. Or maybe I'm wrong and Trump will become a dictator that gets millions of Americans killed in a new civil war like someone at Reset told me a while back. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I understand Trump supporters perfectly well. I also have friends who voted Trump who were originally Bernie supporters. Even Yang acknowledges that Trump pointed out the right problems and won basically because states that lost many manufacturing jobs voted for him. I could clearly see Trump winning in 2016 given how slimey Clinton was and the 24/7 media hysteria about every little thing he did. Don't forget that many Democrats absolutely hated Hillary, another big reason for his win (yet somehow she still got 3 million more votes).
However, it seems people just got into the habit of defending him no matter what he does, even when he does dangerous and destructive things, and this is where I say people have become weak minded. The points I've listed are predominantly factual and not based on some media spin.

A perfect example is the sharpie incident. It's not really a big deal, but think about what he did. He became petty about getting things wrong, and then falsified a hurricane map and broadcast it to prove he was right. You'd think even his supporters would raise an eyebrow, but no, plenty of people where right there willing to somehow justify his actions. It's just as pathetic as Democrats going after Kavanaugh for a 36 year old groping story.


Great question and in it's core it shows a great perceptual flaw in today's society. Social and emotional intelligence have nothing do to with "common" intelligence, aka the ability to apply knowledge and skills. That's also a reason for why you can have Havard or whatever graduates in high positions (enterprises, politics, you name it) who are still dumb as fuck when it comes to situations, that require empathy and a high social and emotional intelligence.
I wouldn't say it has "nothing" to do with it. Often the more educated someone is the better their critical thinking skills are, and those do translate to improved emotional intelligence. If you were to put a bet on who had better EQ, would you choose the uneducated highschool dropout or the PhD in medicine? Sometimes the problem with being more educated is it makes you more arrogant. It often happens on a subconscious level, so the more self aware you are the better chances of you catching yourself before believing in silly things.
 

matt404au

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By all means, point out my subjectivity and try painting the points I've listed in a good light. I'd love to see how "most" of what I wrote is very biased. Who knows, you may even change my mind ;)

As for "leftists", what exactly does that mean? Are you just conveniently trying to put people in a box and then dismiss them based on some made up shared characteristics that may or may not apply? That's one way to debate, I suppose. You really know nothing about me, save for the fact that I've effectively triggered you compelling you to defend your hero.
Reminder that Hotspurr is an agitator flip flopping to whichever perspective gives him the most attention.

 

betrayal

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I wouldn't say it has "nothing" to do with it. Often the more educated someone is the better their critical thinking skills are, and those do translate to improved emotional intelligence. If you were to put a bet on who had better EQ, would you choose the uneducated highschool dropout or the PhD in medicine? Sometimes the problem with being more educated is it makes you more arrogant. It often happens on a subconscious level, so the more self aware you are the better chances of you catching yourself before believing in silly things.
I agree. I just wanted to point out, that you can be well educated but still lack emotional itelligence. That goes both ways of course.

I really can't answer your question if i would pick the uneducated highschool dropout or the PhD in medicine, because i don't agree that improved critical thinking translates well to improved emotional itelligence.
 
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