• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Next-Gen PS5 & Next Xbox |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Next Gen Consoles Power Level


  • Total voters
    216
Jul 29, 2013
1,298
1,380
675
Oregon, US
Ok you just said its not about big or small but well designed and aesthetically pleasing, so it doesn't matter big or small
This is turning into Perry Mason now.:goog_geek: The original comment I made...
For me the important thing is being compact, quiet, and power efficient. Then stuff like the ultra fast loading times, Zen 2 CPU that kicks ass, and well-designed controllers.

Hopefully most games will provide the option of performance and HQ visual modes. Some people are fine with 4K/30fps, but others would want maybe 4kCB/60fps or 1440p/60fps with slightly lower settings.
I even covered high quality visual and high performance modes. Don't try to spin me, I'm too heavy.
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
This is turning into Perry Mason now.:goog_geek: The original comment I made...
Alright i just wanted to get it clear, you confused me a little with that last comment about well designed/engineered which is not exclusive to small designs
I even covered high quality visual and high performance modes
btw there is no high quality or performance with gonzalo performance
The only viable option for AAA is 1440p/30 fps to push next gen graphics
 
Jul 29, 2013
1,298
1,380
675
Oregon, US
btw there is no high quality or performance with gonzalo performance
The only viable option for AAA is 1440p/30 fps to push next gen graphics
That's relative to your expectations. While we're certain to see improvements to visual fidelity and realism, areas that have a lot of opportunity for growth are world density and dynamism/physics.

The age of the type of generational leap we saw with SNES to N64, or PS1 to PS2 is gone. Games like DOOM Eternal, Metro Exodus, and Cyberpunk will be considered "last-gen", but probably not to far off what to expect from "next-gen". Especially running on something like a 2070S up to a 2080ti. Again, both "last-gen" cards by the time next gen consoles roll around and we have Ampere on the market.

Visuals will be fine in the hands of ND or GG, but even still you notice how Sony is really hyping their SSD tech and not banging on GPU firepower?
 

xool

Member
May 29, 2018
814
705
335
For a 4k target is terrible
For 1440p its not bad
Sony could just add more ROPs and TMUs, like they did this gen I think.

Polygon (setup/transformation) count ability remains the same, but raw pixel output is increased
 

Bani

Member
Oct 3, 2018
77
27
180
Every day I play on my Xbox X, I'm still amazed at how they got it to be so quiet, yet so packed. They went from the massive OG Xbox, to the 360 and its heat issues, to the massive Xbone, and finally this. Took them 18 years, but they finally cracked it. Hopefully Xbox 2 continues this and won't disappoint.
What you talking about,just first series xbox 360 has heat issue,all others xbox is silent like blu sky
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Mar 31, 2014
9,113
1,165
710
What you talking about,just first series xbox 360 has heat issue,all others xbox is silent like blu sky
Ya no, 360 motherboards were:


Xenon
Zephyr
Falcon
Opus
Jasper
Trinity/Corona


Only with Jasper did RRoD get to "acceptable" and it was still rather loud, just not a wind turbine. Trinity/the Slim is where it got quiet.

The XBO was also quiet, but they only said it was large
 
  • Like
Reactions: SonGoku and TLZ

Bani

Member
Oct 3, 2018
77
27
180
Ya no, 360 motherboards were:


Xenon
Zephyr
Falcon
Opus
Jasper
Trinity/Corona


Only with Jasper did RRoD get to "acceptable" and it was still rather loud, just not a wind turbine. Trinity/the Slim is where it got quiet.

The XBO was also quiet, but they only said it was large
Please do not say so, I had all the Xbox 360 console and only the first was with the problem all the others were within the limits of normal, especially the last version, and for the noise again is the same
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Mar 31, 2014
9,113
1,165
710
Please do not say so, I had all the Xbox 360 console and only the first was with the problem all the others were within the limits of normal, especially the last version, and for the noise again is the same
Why did you have 7 360s if they all worked?

Anyways, everyone had their anecdotes but the statistics don't lie, the RRoD only got down to standard electronics failure rates by Jasper, and Jasper was still noticeably loud, just much improved from the wind turbine first generations. I'd have to do some advanced googling to find the failure rates by motherboard revision but I remember it clearly.
 

Racer43

Member
Jun 14, 2018
325
252
285
I think well designed hardware of any type has a certain visual appeal to it inherently. This is even true about things like cars, military weaponry, or even food. If food looks like shit and smells like shit, despite tasting delicious then we have a problem. That would be akin to Xbox 360 at launch. I like the X1X design regardless of whether that means higher price on the console.

Kind of shocking that I'm getting the treatment for not wanting a big, loud, power hungry console. I'm not thirsty for maximum performance at any cost. Sorry.

It's all a moot point anyway, imo. I believe Sony and MS have the very same goals in mind. That's why Gonzalo and OQA leaks make sense to me over kaiju rumors.
Except its not like that at all. The equivalent to what youre suggesting, is actually a good looking snappy UI, or good graphics to wet your appetite for gameplay. What you are saying makes no sense logically. Does your beautifully designed console makes you wanna play Mario or Uncharted?? Like, "that box is so damn beautiful and whisper quiet, it so makes me wanna play a platformer"?

The problem is not that you want a beautiful well designed box on your tv rack. We all want that. The surreal thing is that you would choose that over what is the point of the device.
 

Chronos24

Member
Nov 29, 2012
496
16
395
U.S.A
Hmm...do you sit with the console right beside you in a tiny apartment? If so, I could see it as some sort of a problem. If not, im a little mind blown. Well, we are all different :)
I do not live in a small space and my console sits about 6 feet away in an open back stand with a door in front of it. But, it can not be denied that these consoles were loud period. I understand people wear headsets and headphones and do not hear their console that's fine. Some of us have families and need to be able to hear everything else too. YouTube loud PS4 consoles and that'll be a big reminder just how loud they were and that's what I dealt with (until the 1200 model) then the pro came out and loud again but not as bad as og PS4.
 

Racer43

Member
Jun 14, 2018
325
252
285
I do not live in a small space and my console sits about 6 feet away in an open back stand with a door in front of it. But, it can not be denied that these consoles were loud period. I understand people wear headsets and headphones and do not hear their console that's fine. Some of us have families and need to be able to hear everything else too. YouTube loud PS4 consoles and that'll be a big reminder just how loud they were and that's what I dealt with (until the 1200 model) then the pro came out and loud again but not as bad as og PS4.
I have a PS4 Pro jet, so I know that can be irritating. I have placed it so it doesnt bother me. Took me five minutes and a longer cable. Would I like a quieter console. Yeah. Would I rather have an underpowered console for the next 7 years because I cant be bothered to come up with a solution to that small problem? Hell no.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LSWilson

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
3,999
633
695
Sony could just add more ROPs and TMUs, like they did this gen I think.

Polygon (setup/transformation) count ability remains the same, but raw pixel output is increased
You need more shading power to jump from 1440p to 4K...

Adding more ROPs isn't a silver bullet (PS4 Pro 64 vs XB1X 32 ROPs).
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: SonGoku

FrostyJ93

Member
Jun 19, 2019
111
155
395
USA
While games will obviously look better I think raytracing aside improving visual fidelity wont be as much of a priority next gen. Seems like framerate and load time reduction are going to be the main priorities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CrustyBritches

Racer43

Member
Jun 14, 2018
325
252
285
Not at the expense of the entire purpose of the console, thats whats dont make any sense to me. Its like participating in a race for fastest time, choosing the slowest car because it looks good, is quiet, with low fuel consumption. Well, some does that also I suppose :)
 
Last edited:
Jul 29, 2013
1,298
1,380
675
Oregon, US
Not at the expense of the entire purpose of the console, thats whats dont make any sense to me.
Let it go, man. My design philosophy/speculation for a console doesn't come "at the expense of the entire purpose of the console" like your straw man argument suggests.

Your PS4 Pro is an example of what not to do. I'm not putting my console in the closet or around the corner with a long hdmi cable. :messenger_grinning_squinting:
 

Chronos24

Member
Nov 29, 2012
496
16
395
U.S.A
I have a PS4 Pro jet, so I know that can be irritating. I have placed it so it doesnt bother me. Took me five minutes and a longer cable. Would I like a quieter console. Yeah. Would I rather have an underpowered console for the next 7 years because I cant be bothered to come up with a solution to that small problem? Hell no.
Can't we have a quiet console that's also powerful???
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Mar 31, 2014
9,113
1,165
710
Most bill of materials I can find don't even bother listing the heatsink, this one lumps it into "Mechanicals" along with plastics, the enclosure, other metal mechanicals, and totals those all including cooling to 19 dollars.


Where did the idea that more cooling would be exorbitantly expensive come from? It really doesn't need to be anything exotic, look at the tiny footprint the heatsink in the PS4 actually took, it just needs to be larger and with an updated fan to up the TDP.
 

KingT731

Member
Jan 9, 2018
81
49
260
Most bill of materials I can find don't even bother listing the heatsink, this one lumps it into "Mechanicals" along with plastics, the enclosure, other metal mechanicals, and totals those all including cooling to 19 dollars.

Where did the idea that more cooling would be exorbitantly expensive come from? It really doesn't need to be anything exotic, look at the tiny footprint the heatsink in the PS4 actually took, it just needs to be larger and with an updated fan to up the TDP.
I probably should state that I meant "expensive by comparison."
 

Racer43

Member
Jun 14, 2018
325
252
285
Let it go, man. My design philosophy/speculation for a console doesn't come "at the expense of the entire purpose of the console" like your straw man argument suggests.

Your PS4 Pro is an example of what not to do. I'm not putting my console in the closet or around the corner with a long hdmi cable. :messenger_grinning_squinting:
Strawman arguments lol.

My design philosophy/speculation for a console doesn't come "at the expense of the entire purpose of the console"
Its EXACTLY what youre saying here. Your exact words:

For me the important thing is being compact, quiet, and power efficient. Then stuff like the ultra fast loading times, Zen 2 CPU that kicks ass, and well-designed controllers.
The experience is not suppose to be the box. Its suppose to be what you see on screen and what comes out of your loudspeakers :D
 
Last edited:

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
That's relative to your expectations.
lol its not just me, the market expects a next gen console with a clear cut distinction in graphics, Cerny said as much on the wired interview
They can't just sell a 4k PS4, they already done that with the Pro
The age of the type of generational leap we saw with SNES to N64, or PS1 to PS2 is gone. Games like DOOM Eternal, Metro Exodus, and Cyberpunk will be considered "last-gen", but probably not to far off what to expect from "next-gen".
Funny how the sprite->3D and PS1->PS2 is always brought up on these discussions, the same was said at the start of this gen: That next gen consoles would just run prettier version of ps360 games, the equivalent of "pc high settings" they said and oh boy they where wrong. PS3->PS4 games are a night and day difference

All those games you listed will look the same on base PS4 and $3000 PC with the exception of a few extra effects, textures and resolution of course.

but even still you notice how Sony is really hyping their SSD tech and not banging on GPU firepower?
I said this before, even if we get a 14.2TF Kaiju the jump in GPU is minuscule compared to the jump from the latency ridden slow as molasses laptop HDDs. Its easily a 100x jump, why would they not hype that up? That doesn't mean they will bottleneck the system with an under powered 1440p GPU.

Also noticed how they keep hammering on increased rendering speed thanks to SSD? It needs a powerful GPU to keep up with it
Sony could just add more ROPs and TMUs, like they did this gen I think.

Polygon (setup/transformation) count ability remains the same, but raw pixel output is increased
TMUs are inside each DCU/CU and ROPs where increased to make up for bandwith. ROPs are part of the frontend btw, if they beef up the frontend it would be trivial to add more CUs
 
Last edited:

pawel86ck

Member
Jan 27, 2018
595
540
310
  • monolithic die ~22.4mm by ~14.1mm
  • 16 Samsung K4ZAF325BM-HC18 in clamshell configuration
  • memory vrm seems like overkill with multiple Fairchild/ON Semiconductor FDMF3170 power stages controlled by an MP2888 from MPS
  • 3 Samsung K4AAG085WB-MCRC, 2 of those close to the NAND acting as DRAM cache (unusual 2GB DRAM per 1 TB NAND)
  • 4 NAND packages soldered to the PCB which are TH58LJT2T24BAEG from Toshiba
  • PS5016-E16 from Phison
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
  • monolithic die ~22.4mm by ~14.1mm
  • 16 Samsung K4ZAF325BM-HC18 in clamshell configuration
  • memory vrm seems like overkill with multiple Fairchild/ON Semiconductor FDMF3170 power stages controlled by an MP2888 from MPS
  • 3 Samsung K4AAG085WB-MCRC, 2 of those close to the NAND acting as DRAM cache (unusual 2GB DRAM per 1 TB NAND)
  • 4 NAND packages soldered to the PCB which are TH58LJT2T24BAEG from Toshiba
  • PS5016-E16 from Phison
Yeah this was posted on may
edit: going to youtubers for leaks, its not really a good idea. They are bottom of the barrel feeders that regurgitate info from forums and Reddit.
 
Last edited:
Jul 29, 2013
1,298
1,380
675
Oregon, US
All those games you listed will look the same on base PS4 and $3000 PC with the exception of a few extra effects, textures and resolution of course.


You're still talking about your expectations. I'm ok with Scarlett's 4x CPU and 2x GPU, or PS5 rumors(Gonzalo, OQA). For the first few years, I don't expect next-gen games to look much better than what PC will be doing over the next year. We can revisit Metro Exodus, DOOM Eternal, and Cyberpunk console vs PC comparison in the future. Just playing the waiting game now.
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
You're still talking about your expectations.
Its a next gen console, people expect a next gen leap, even Cerny mentioned it before
PS4 Metro Exodus already out is not that far from PC, last DOOM game looks on par on PS4 as well, those type of games wont sell PS5s

But you'll see, thankfully for you its a win win ;)
I don't expect next-gen games to look much better than what PC
So PS4 visuals then? :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
Last edited:

~Fake

Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,819
2,618
555
Rio de Janeiro


You're still talking about your expectations. I'm ok with Scarlett's 4x CPU and 2x GPU, or PS5 rumors(Gonzalo, OQA). For the first few years, I don't expect next-gen games to look much better than what PC will be doing over the next year. We can revisit Metro Exodus, DOOM Eternal, and Cyberpunk console vs PC comparison in the future. Just playing the waiting game now.
To be honest, every next gen start its not necessary mean 'next gen' games. Most of the early games from next gen or will be multi-plat or cross-over with previous generation.
Devs always need more time to understand the machine, they can't extract 'Last of Us' for PS3 or Forza for 'Xbox 360' in early years for example. I mean, give 3 years or more for some 'Horizon Zero Dawn' equivalent.
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
To be honest, every next gen start its not necessary mean 'next gen' games. Most of the early games from next gen or will be multi-plat or cross-over with previous generation.
Devs always need more time to understand the machine, they can't extract 'Last of Us' for PS3 or Forza for 'Xbox 360' in early years for example. I mean, give 3 years or more for some 'Horizon Zero Dawn' equivalent.
Even early next gen games like killzone, knack (not joking) and second son looked a clear step above anything on PS3
Ryse and The Order where impressive early games
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GermanZepp

~Fake

Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,819
2,618
555
Rio de Janeiro
Even early next gen games like killzone, knack (not joking) and second son looked a clear step above anything on PS3
Killzone is a techshow no doubt, but that horrible framerate and dynamic res don't say much about 'pushing to limits'.
My best example of all will always be Horizon Zero Dawn because its an open world game, with is a very demanding type of game and both Killzone and Horizon share the same engine, but just one of them is native 1080p at fixed 30 frames per second. Thats where the perfomance was extract.
 
Last edited:

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
but that horrible framerate and dynamic res don't say much about 'pushing to limits'.
Don't misunderstand me, i didn't say killzone pushed the limits or that it was the best next gen had to offer. I said even a launch game like killzone was a clear step above on anything PS3

Framerate and resolution was locked in the main game, MP went with dynamic rez to push an unlocked ~40-50ps
 
  • Like
Reactions: KingT731

~Fake

Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,819
2,618
555
Rio de Janeiro
Don't misunderstand me, i didn't say killzone pushed the limits or that it was the best next gen had to offer. I said even a launch game like killzone was a clear step above on anything PS3

Framerate and resolution was locked in the main game, MP went with dynamic rez to push an unlocked ~40-50ps
Fair enough, but still the game plays horrible if you add that terrible input lag.
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
We're still not getting to heart of the matter, which is that you believe hardware must be a certain way because of your own expectations.
Its decades of conditioning the average joe to expect generational leaps with new consoles, PS4 was no exception and certainly not PS5 either.
Even Mark Cerny mentioned this, you know.. the PS5 Architect
Even with Navi 10 next-gen games can be sexy.
At 1440p sure
 

sonomamashine

Member
Jun 29, 2019
484
229
255
All those games you listed will look the same on base PS4 and $3000 PC with the exception of a few extra effects, textures and resolution of course.
Its a next gen console, people expect a next gen leap, even Cerny mentioned it before
PS4 Metro Exodus already out is not that far from PC
Pc's are leapfrogging anyway (console ports), (guessing) maybe AMD is planning on releasing Rx 5800xt (56CU's) Rx 5800 (52CU's), lite version (rx 5800) for next gen with (RT) ?

* 52CU @ 1800Mhz = 12 Tf
* 56CU @ 1800Mhz = 12.9 Tf

(console clocks)
* 52CU @ 1550Mhz = 10.3 Tf
* 56CU @ 1550Mhz = 11.1 Tf

navi 10Lite was a test chip (available at the time)
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,814
3,596
560
Pc's are leapfrogging anyway (console ports), (guessing) maybe AMD is planning on releasing Rx 5800xt (56CU's) Rx 5800 (52CU's), lite version (rx 5800) for next gen with (RT) ?
If you mean hw thats correct, RTX2080 will be midrange by the time consoles launch
Graphically PC games don't look drastically better, last gen the gap was much more apparent and yet still next gen games turned out to be a step above any last gen PC games

On 7nm DUV 10TF is a reasonable expectation although i think they can break 11TF with 56CU @ 1550Mhz-1600Mhz = 11.1 TF-11.4TF
On 7nm EUV 12-13TF is a pretty safe conservative expectation
 
Last edited:

joe_zazen

Member
May 2, 2017
1,398
984
355
  • monolithic die ~22.4mm by ~14.1mm
  • 16 Samsung K4ZAF325BM-HC18 in clamshell configuration
  • memory vrm seems like overkill with multiple Fairchild/ON Semiconductor FDMF3170 power stages controlled by an MP2888 from MPS
  • 3 Samsung K4AAG085WB-MCRC, 2 of those close to the NAND acting as DRAM cache (unusual 2GB DRAM per 1 TB NAND)
  • 4 NAND packages soldered to the PCB which are TH58LJT2T24BAEG from Toshiba
  • PS5016-E16 from Phison
Was this debunked? & Could the memory vrm overkill be related to ssd pcie gddr6 stuff? I have read that pcie nvme drives have power and heat issues and often times get throttled because of it.
 

Bani

Member
Oct 3, 2018
77
27
180
Why did you have 7 360s if they all worked?

Anyways, everyone had their anecdotes but the statistics don't lie, the RRoD only got down to standard electronics failure rates by Jasper, and Jasper was still noticeably loud, just much improved from the wind turbine first generations. I'd have to do some advanced googling to find the failure rates by motherboard revision but I remember it clearly.
I'm not telling you you're lying but you're not telling the truth, why I had 4 Xbox 360, the answer is because I hacked some of them, only the last one was without hack, so now you are happy
 

xool

Member
May 29, 2018
814
705
335
Was this debunked? & Could the memory vrm overkill be related to ssd pcie gddr6 stuff? I have read that pcie nvme drives have power and heat issues and often times get throttled because of it.
not as far as I know - how would it be debunked anyway - unless someone posted an actual image of a dev-kit board that was different. I don't think anyone found any obvious errors in the claims.

afaik NVMe throttling is due to overheating. Without knowing how the individual FDMF3170 s are connected to what I'd be guessing. [edit - there's 3 different kinds of memory in there - I'd expect each type to have its own power controller at a minimum - maybe that's why there seems to be more power ICs than usual..]

[edit2] I dunno if they checked to see if the PowerIC's were actually connected to memory or to the APU .. it's possible that the APU has multiple power inputs, especially if they are separately controlling clocks/power on GPU/individual CPU cores .. (but see below)

[edit3] - maybe the "overkill" phrase is just a poorly formed opinion - the MP2888 is a ten phase controller - so needs 10 mosfets .. it might look like a lot, but it's could be just a normal set up
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: joe_zazen