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[Fake]

Sigh... I don't even quote you anymore.
Just google it about software emulation.
If PS4 games will run similar or better on PS5 its up to Sony.
If Sony will use BC software emulation of native idk. Software emulation is very hard, but games running by this can get better perfomance/resolution without the dev patch. Unless you have a crystal ball or you're insider, otherwise all of us are just speculating.

 

[Negotiator]

PS5 will emulate PS4 games

If Sony will use BC software emulation of native idk.

Unless you have a crystal ball or you're insider, otherwise all of us are just speculating.

I rest my case.

 

[Fake]

I rest my case.

Thank God. You always right.

 

[Negotiator]

Both Jaguar and Zen uarch share the same ISA (x86-64).

Both GCN 1.1 and RDNA uarch share the same ISA (GCN).

These are facts, not speculation.

That's why there's no need for emulation in next-gen consoles. Emulation is costly vs native execution, therefore it only makes sense when you change ISAs (VLIW -> GCN, PowerPC -> x86-64).

If anything, PS4 Pro and XB1X were experimental consoles to try this concept for the first time in the console space. Test bed for next-gen R&D/BC if you will.

 

[llien]

IO included shared with CPU

Well, how big would that be then? Given that current 14nm IO die is bigger than 8 core

IO included shared with CPU
My conservative estimate is 60CU Total - 56 enabled at 1600MHz = 11.46TF

Spoiler

75mm for CPU
62.7mm2 for 384 bit bus (24GB)
69.99mm2 for front end SEs (ROPs, cache, etc.)
IO 20.72mm2
10.85mm2 GPU CC (CP, ACEs etc.)
146.7 mm2 30WGPs with RT (60CUs)
Total:

N7P: 385.96mm2
N6 328.066mm2
N7+: 320.3468mm2

I do not follow the split up on GPU bits, given that GPU and CPU access memory independently, where does any sort of saving come from?

20% density increase as well

Well, you reduced chip size in case of EUV process accordingly, so that is counted in. already.

I don't understand why this matters for consoles with monolithic APU chips. Care to explain?

They're going to use one lithography (most likely 7nm EUV judging by 2 GHz) for the entire chip, not 2 or 3 separate nodes.

I/O die will be incorporated in the same APU die and we know that 7nm offers 3.3x density improvement vs 12-14nm.

If what AMD states is true, 14nm for IO chiplet makes more sense (easier to dissipate heat etc). They explicitly did NOT want higher density.

 

[Fake]

Both Jaguar and Zen uarch share the same ISA (x86-64).

Both GCN 1.1 and RDNA uarch share the same ISA (GCN).

These are facts, not speculation.

That's why there's no need for emulation in next-gen consoles. Emulation is costly vs native execution, therefore it only makes sense when you change ISAs (VLIW -> GCN, PowerPC -> x86-64).

If anything, PS4 Pro and XB1X were experimental consoles to try this concept for the first time in the console space. Test bed for next-gen R&D/BC if you will.

Agree, software emulation is very costly but if people dream about ps4 games runing better on PS5 just by magic, well they gonna be dissapointed. Of course, Sony can always surprise us.

 

[llien]

Come on guys, that "beyond3d" leak with 2Ghz is mentioning 2020 Q1-Q2 release date, which, beyond being highly unlikely, also means 7nm DUV.
Now, if at 2Ghz, 40CU GPU is at around 230 watts, one ends up with 300-ish watts for GPU alone (that is, not even counting in loses on power supply efficiency), not going to happen.

 

[Fake]

Are AMD desktop gpus have some features to energy effecient? They could be used on PS5 as well?

 

[Negotiator]

If what AMD states is true, 14nm for IO chiplet makes more sense (easier to dissipate heat etc). They explicitly did NOT want higher density.

That's PR bullshit and you know it. They've been touting "7nm 1st!" bragging rights ever since Radeon VII was released.

AMD still has some wafer contracts on GF (12-14nm) and they had to honor them somehow. Also, manufacturing small 7nm chiplets helps them to increase yields on a cutting-edge process. That's the (business) truth.

What's your take on it? Are next-gen consoles going to use a chiplet structure (CPU chiplet + I/O die + Navi GPU die)?

 

[devilNprada]

Found the source which has larger uncompressed images.

Sony PlayStation 5 of PS5 Development Kit? | LetsGoDigital

Sony patent zorgt voor veel rumoer; is het de langverwachte PS5 of de Development Kit? LetsGoDigital brengt 3D renders om het apparaat in beeld te brengen.

nl.letsgodigital.org

Absolutely no way Sony has those play buttons on the face. I can buy the box design, but at least make it somewhat believable.

 

[llien]

Are AMD desktop gpus have some features to energy effecient?

Well, they quite are, but there also is that Intel company, pushing its 14nm CPUs to very high clocks and hence consuming nearly twice as much for a little more performance, which makes AMD look much better.
Note that Intel still has an edge in mobile world (14nm vs 12nm) although a small one.

Its BC. If will be or not native is still not confirmed, but as I said, only via emulation the game can be patched without company interference.

Why does game even need patching?
I'd expect PS games to use Sony's APIs. So, "here are my triangles", "here are my textures" etc.
Those same triangles can be rendered on newer hardware with no patching.

Going from stronger to weaker HW is problematic (stuff wouldn't fit into memory etc) but other way round can be smooth and automatic.
The way normal PC games work across gazillion of configurations, just via using DirectX or Vulkan.

That's PR bullshit and you know it. They've been touting "7nm 1st!" bragging rights ever since Radeon VII was released.

Well, I admit, it could be, although it doesn't sound like total nonsense. (it's also likely cheaper that way)

What's your take on it? Are next-gen consoles going to use a chiplet structure (CPU chiplet + I/O die + Navi GPU die)?

In CPU world it is a no brainer (turning 30-40% yields into 90%), but with consoles, given that lion's share of the die is GPU and can't be split, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.

 

[Cenkolino85]

These consoles will cost 599,- and they are going to be true beasts. I love it how many people on Forums do like to Low-Ball each other to sound more credible.

This is going to happen
8 Core Zen 2 3.2 Ghz
24 GB GDDR6
13 Tflop GPU with 56 CUs and RT Cores
250 GB Ultra Fast Nextgeb SSD with huge Cache and 2 TB HDD
(Any game will completely loaded inside that fast SSD and will acces the RAM directly)

599,-
And you will love it.
8 Tflop GPUs....

 

[Negotiator]

In CPU world it is a no brainer (turning 30-40% yields into 90%), but with consoles, given that lion's share of the die is GPU and can't be split, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.

So do you agree that they're going to use a monolithic APU die at 7nm?

In that case, I/O die size is not an issue thanks to 7nm's 3.3x scaling benefits. Basically it's going to be 3 times smaller compared to 12-14nm.

 

[Cenkolino85]

The SSD will basically function as a pre-buffer for the Ram. Its moronic to think they would simply use a 1 TB SSD and call it a day. Nextgen games will easily exceed the 200 GB threshold. Its simply not feasable to do it any other way. Maybe the ultra fast SSD will only be like 128 GB but thats more than enough. Since the data is stored in the HDD which feeds the SSD when neccesary.

 

[Fake]

Well, they quite are, but there also is that Intel company, pushing its 14nm CPUs to very high clocks and hence consuming nearly twice as much for a little more performance, which makes AMD look much better.
Note that Intel still has an edge in mobile world (14nm vs 12nm) although a small one.


Why does game even need patching?
I'd expect PS games to use Sony's APIs. So, "here are my triangles", "here are my textures" etc.
Those same triangles can be rendered on newer hardware with no patching.

Going from stronger to weaker HW is problematic (stuff wouldn't fit into memory etc) but other way round can be smooth and automatic.
The way normal PC games work across gazillion of configurations, just via using DirectX or Vulkan.

Dunno, maybe to take advance of PS5 specs just like PRO?
Its speculation by my part, but I can't deny the quality of BC from Xbox One X. Its quite amazing in fact. But I 'OK' just by PS5 run PS4, but I just expect some sort of improve. Crossgen games don't even need, but PS4 already had a huge catalogue.

 

[llien]

In that case, I/O die size is not an issue thanks to 7nm's 3.3x scaling benefits

That is fine, but CPU die size in calculation should be increased accordingly.

PS
Oh, and RT stuff too. For 2xxx it is at around 10% I was told.

 

[llien]

Dunno, maybe to take advance of PS5 specs just like PRO?

That is quite an effort and goes beyond simple BC.

 

[sonomamashine]

These consoles will cost 599,- and they are going to be true beasts. I love it how many people on Forums do like to Low-Ball each other to sound more credible.

This is going to happen
8 Core Zen 2 3.2 Ghz
24 GB GDDR6
13 Tflop GPU with 56 CUs and RT Cores
250 GB Ultra Fast Nextgeb SSD with huge Cache and 2 TB HDD
(Any game will completely loaded inside that fast SSD and will acces the RAM directly)

599,-
And you will love it.
8 Tflop GPUs....

word, insider check

 

[Cenkolino85]

You'll see. Low-Ballers probably tight on that 399 Crew... Forget it. Wont happen. Thank lord. 599 and you'll love it.

The 399 Shit Show called base Ps4 was so anemic that it needed a currentgen refresh that sucked equally. Wont happen again. X1X saved the day. And I am a PS guy.

 

[Negotiator]

Suggesting they're going to use a 128-256GB SSD (good luck providing 4GB/s with that) instead of a 1TB PCIe 4.0 SSD is also low-balling, since Cerny has already promised instant loading times with the Spiderman PS5 demo.

And let's not forget that using a small SSD as a storage cache is going to decrease its lifespan dramatically (QLC cells are not very durable).

 

[pawel86ck]

Guys, if next gen consoles will be so fast then how current PC's will fare?

I have sold my last PC build (8700K and 1080ti) and I would like to buy a new PC now (3700X or i9 9900K + RTX 2070S) but I fear next year when PS5 will launch this PC build will strugge to run multiplatform games made with PS5 in mind. 9900K is 8 core 16 threads CPU, it should be enough to match framerate on consoles, but if PS5 game will be made with 30fps in mind, then obviously even 9900K will not be fast enough to offer 60fps. What's more 2070S will be probably outclassed with PS5 GPU and especially when it comes to VRAM (2070S has only 8GB, PS5 will probably use well over 10 GB VRAM).

It really looks to me like investing into new PC right now isnt the wisest decision but currently I have very old PC from 2012 (3570K + 680 GTX) that barely runs new games. Whats worse I have also sold my current gen consoles (xbox x and PS4P although I still have my all games). Well I can buy PS4P and xbox x again but one year frow now PS5 and xbox scarlett should be already out, so buying current gen consoles now is probably also not the best decision. I just dont know what to buy in order to play new games

 

[DeepEnigma]

Suggesting they're going to use a 128-256GB SSD (good luck providing 4GB/s with that) instead of a 1TB PCIe 4.0 SSD is also low-balling, since Cerny has already promised instant loading times with the Spiderman PS5 demo.

And let's not forget that using a small SSD as a storage cache is going to decrease its lifespan dramatically (QLC cells are not very durable).

I don’t believe it will even have a mechanical drive. That would be a bottleneck with what they are trying to do here.

 

[Negotiator]

Guys, if next gen consoles will be so fast then how current PC's will fare?

I have sold my last PC build (8700K and 1080ti) and I would like to buy a new PC now (3700X or i9 9900K + RTX 2070S) but I fear next year when PS5 will launch this PC build will strugge to run multiplatform games made with PS5 in mind. 9900K is 8 core 16 threads CPU, it should be enough to match framerate on consoles, but if PS5 game will be made with 30fps in mind, then obviously even 9900K will not be fast enough to offer 60fps. What's more 2070S will be probably outclassed with PS5 GPU and especially when it comes to VRAM (2070S has only 8GB, PS5 will probably use well over 10 GB VRAM).

It really looks to me like investing into new PC right now isnt the wisest decision but currently I have very old PC from 2012 (3570K + 680 GTX) that barely runs new games. Whats worse I have also sold my current gen consoles (xbox x and PS4P although I still have my all games). Well I can buy PS4P and xbox x again but one year frow now PS5 and xbox scarlett should be already out, so buying current gen consoles now is probably also not the best decision. I just dont know what to buy in order ti play new games

Yeah, buying a PC 1 year before next-gen consoles are released is always risky.

I'm also worried about Intel's upcoming series (Comet Lake) not supporting PCIe 4.0, since that will be the I/O baseline for next-gen games.

AMD was able to offer PCIe 4.0 with X570, but that's a power-hungry chipset at 14nm, hence the need for active cooling.

It's probably best to keep your money for now. There are also rumors that BTC will rebound next year and we may have yet another mining craze pushing up the GPU prices.

 

[FranXico]

For your consideration, gentlemen...
Magnetic RAM technology

 

[TeamGhobad]

These consoles will cost 599,- and they are going to be true beasts. I love it how many people on Forums do like to Low-Ball each other to sound more credible.

This is going to happen
8 Core Zen 2 3.2 Ghz
24 GB GDDR6
13 Tflop GPU with 56 CUs and RT Cores
250 GB Ultra Fast Nextgeb SSD with huge Cache and 2 TB HDD
(Any game will completely loaded inside that fast SSD and will acces the RAM directly)

599,-
And you will love it.
8 Tflop GPUs....

i wouldn't mind this. give us a true update from this gen. and 599 for a console you will use for 8-9years is not a lot of money.

 

[pawel86ck]

Yeah, buying a PC 1 year before next-gen consoles are released is always risky.

I'm also worried about Intel's upcoming series (Comet Lake) not supporting PCIe 4.0, since that will be the I/O baseline for next-gen games.

AMD was able to offer PCIe 4.0 with X570, but that's a power-hungry chipset at 14nm, hence the need for active cooling.

It's probably best to keep your money for now. There are also rumors that BTC will rebound next year and we may have yet another mining craze pushing up the GPU prices.

That's what I'm thinking. Next year 7nm Nvidia Ampere GPU's should be out and offer big RT speed up and enough VRAM to run next gen multiplatform games without problems. Also PS5 and xbox scarlett will be allready out and I'm planning to buy both next gen consoles.

Well I think I will listen to you and just save money now for 2020 but maybe I will buy some cheap GPU for now just to play recent games. Something like 1070ti should run new games till next gen consoles will launch, and my old i5 3570 still can run many games at 60fps (especially if I will lower some CPU intensive details). I just cant wait when PS5/scarlett will launch, I wish it would be already 2020.

 

[Fake]

That is quite an effort and goes beyond simple BC.

Software emulation. Microsoft spend a lot of money in that.

 

[llien]

It really looks to me like investing into new PC right now isnt the wisest decision but currently I have very old PC from 2012 (3570K + 680 GTX) that barely runs new games. Whats worse I have also sold my current gen consoles (xbox x and PS4P although I still have my all games). Well I can buy PS4P and xbox x again but one year frow now PS5 and xbox scarlett should be already out, so buying current gen consoles now is probably also not the best decision. I just dont know what to buy in order to play new games

Sorry to say that, but going from 8700k + 1080Ti to 9900k + 2070s is more of a side grade.
Most games are still not CPU bottlenecked and RTX in 2xxx is basically DoA, a nice gimmick, but not more than that.

 

[llien]

Software emulation. Microsoft spend a lot of money in that.

Nah. It's neither "software emulation" (of what???) nor did Microsoft invest much into it specifically, it's just how API implementaton works.
If a game runs today on, say 2080Ti on a Linux machine, you can be sure that it will also run on 3080Ti, the same applies to CPUs, there will be no "emulation" involved.

Emulation was needed in consoles when hardware was changing drastically, so you simply couldn't do a number of things, because parts of the system that could execute it were missing. Now it is guaranteed to basically be a faster version of the same platform.

 

[Fake]

Nah. It's neither "software emulation" (of what???) nor did Microsoft invest much into it specifically, it's just how API implementaton works.
If a game runs today on, say 2080Ti on a Linux machine, you can be sure that it will also run on 3080Ti, the same applies to CPUs, there will be no "emulation" involved.

Emulation was needed in consoles when hardware was changing drastically, so you simply couldn't do a number of things, because parts of the system that could execute it were missing. Now it is guaranteed to basically be a faster version of the same platform.

Man... Microsoft made an article about the BC.
Now, who to believe?
Besides, nothing here confirm 100% what kind of BC Sony will implement on PS5.

 

[llien]

Man... Microsoft made an article about the BC.

Share it please.

 

[TLZ]

If anything, PS4 Pro and XB1X were experimental consoles to try this concept for the first time in the console space. Test bed for next-gen R&D/BC if you will.

Didn't Wii already do this with GameCube games, and Wii u for Wii? Completely native hardware BC because it's similar?

 

[pawel86ck]

Sorry to say that, but going from 8700k + 1080Ti to 9900k + 2070s is more of a side grade.
Most games are still not CPU bottlenecked and RTX in 2xxx is basically DoA, a nice gimmick, but not more than that.

I know 2070S is a little bit slower compared to my previous 1080ti (and on top of that 2070S has 3GB VRAM less). I can also buy RTX 2080S (this card is a little bit faster compared to 1080ti) instead of 2070S but I feel performance difference between these two GPU's is just too small to even consider buying 2080S. 2080ti on the other hand is extremely overpriced. So 2070S is pretty much the only "Turing" GPU I'm willing to buy right now and I can sell it year from now and buy 7nm Ampere GPU. Ampere should easily run PS5 multiplatforms and I'm guessing it will offer huge RTX performance boost as well.

Today I was also considering buying used 1070ti or 1080 GTX but it turns out in my country even these old used cards arnt so cheap. If I have to pay over 400 euro for used 1080 GTX I will rather pay a little bit more and buy new 2070S with warranty.

Theoretically I can also buy 1080ti again but there's no way I'm going to buy expensive GPU without HW RT. More and more games use RTX effects, especially when next gen consoles will use RT in some way or another (I'm guessing some games on PC will not even run without RTX). Maybe RTX performance isnt the best on 2070S (1080p 60fps or 1440p 40fps) but that's like console experience and at least I will be able to test these RTX features in games.

 

[bitbydeath]

Man... Microsoft made an article about the BC.
Now, who to believe?
Besides, nothing here confirm 100% what kind of BC Sony will implement on PS5.

If emulation were a magic bullet that didn’t require source code manipulation then all Xbox games would immediately work through it no?

 

[Fake]

If emulation were a magic bullet that didn’t require source code manipulation then all Xbox games would immediately work through it no?

Hard question.

 

[bitbydeath]

Hard question.

I think MS would have made all games immediately available if it were possible.

 

[PocoJoe]

(some/most?) Games run better with boost mode on Pro, without patch.

 

[Negotiator]

Didn't Wii already do this with GameCube games, and Wii u for Wii? Completely native hardware BC because it's similar?

Yeah, even Wii U can run GameCube games unofficially.

 

[Ellery]

Oh sweet we have a poll about TFlops. I voted 10.1 TFLOps

Double digits sound like what they should do for marketing purposes but not sure if they can reach that on the navi architecture and keeping the power draw in check. It is possible but expensive.

12+ Tflops on the navi architecture ... good luck. Even a 9 TF Navi cards (the GPU alone) consumes more than the entire PS4 Pro and gets too warm.

But it will be exciting to see how the final console is going to look like and what the cooling solution is.

 

[Fake]

Share it please.

Using the PC now, let me find for you.

edit:

Spoiler

soruce: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...x-one-x-back-compat-how-does-it-actually-work

Xbox One backwards compatibility: how does it actually work?
Digital Foundry talks with Microsoft about Xbox 360 support, including the 4K-enhanced Xbox One X titles.
"Across the years, we've only picked up a few titbits on the process - essentially that the original Xbox 360 PowerPC executables are reverse-engineered into an intermediate, then recompiled into x86. There's also been talk of some level of hardware compatibility integrated into the Xbox One processor to make the job easier, but beyond that, technical details on the process are thin on the ground - until now."

"Basically, we have a VGPU - or an Xbox 360 GPU that we've recompiled into x86 - and we run the entire 360 OS stack," explains Bill Stillwell, Xbox Platform Lead. "We take each game, we recompile it so that it runs, but basically we're running it still in a 360, and the team goes through the game with multiple passes."

It's not an easy task because fundamentally, the Xbox 360's PowerPC processor is worlds apart from Xbox One's x86 foundation. Floating point calculations need to be adapted from 40-bit to 32-bit, with potential implications for aspects like collision detection, but Microsoft's aim here is clear - to be able to host game code on their virtualised Xbox 360 and for it to run as close as possible to original hardware.

Its a bloody damn good read. Enjoy.

 

[SonGoku]

Well, how big would that be then? Given that current 14nm IO die is bigger than 8 core

I already posted the breakdown

I do not follow the split up on GPU bits, given that GPU and CPU access memory independently, where does any sort of saving come from?

APUs use one IO for both GPU & CPU

Well, you reduced chip size in case of EUV process accordingly, so that is counted in. already.

Yes but i reiterated since you seemed unaware
N7P: 385.96mm2
N6 328.066mm2
N7+: 320.3468mm2

If what AMD states is true, 14nm for IO chiplet makes more sense (easier to dissipate heat etc). They explicitly did NOT want higher density.

Its makes no sense for an APU, you are thinking of separate CPU-GPU

 

[Cenkolino85]

The PS5 wont use a 5700 XT. That card is a midrange card OCed to the very limit to compete with Nvidias superior architecture. I guarantee you the PS5 wont use that GPU. Dont know when and why that illogical thinking is repeated again and again by so many people?
It will use a custom GPU based on the Navi 20 cards. Dont asume the shitty off the shelve PS4 GPU is the norm. The weak as shit PS4 is the exception. It was so weak it needed a refresh in the middle of its lifespan. Xbox One was even worse in that regard. What a truly horrible generation. Cant end soon enough.

 

[farmerboy]

Are there any leaks on the PS5 dev kit specs? I had dinner with a friend who worked with it and want to compare what he told me versus what is known.

Edit: Found this https://www.ps5playstation5.com/specs/

Dude......you can't just leave us hanging like this.

 

[Insane Metal]

Nice, coming here and teasing us like this.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Edit: Found this https://www.ps5playstation5.com/specs/

PS5 will have a 2TB SSD?

 

[Fake]

WTF is that link lmao. Well, gonna spend a time reading.

edit: God, I almost forgot the 3D audio. Underwhelming feature.

edit2: Its a good read so far. OP, any chances of add that to the first post?

 

[Insane Metal]

PS5 will have a 2TB SSD?

Absolutely. And Zen 2. And 14TF NAVI. All that sweetness for $399.

 

[sonomamashine]

Absolutely. And Zen 2. And 14TF NAVI. All that sweetness for $399.

why you do him like that

 

[Imtjnotu]

Absolutely. And Zen 2. And 14TF NAVI. All that sweetness for $399.

$399²

 

[llien]

Its a bloody damn good read. Enjoy.

That's.... xbox 360 BC, dude, with IBM's custom CPU, which is naturally not compatible with x86 inside PS4.

If I have to pay over 400 euro for used 1080 GTX I will rather pay a little bit more and buy new 2070S with warranty.

OT here, but you could consider AIB 5700XT as well, which is not far in perf to 2070S, for 20% less.

I already posted the breakdown

What is stuff such as "area for CUs" based on?