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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & Next Xbox |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Next Gen Consoles Power Level


  • Total voters
    351

Lunatic_Gamer

Neo Member
Jan 15, 2018
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Where did you see that quote? I see this one...

"One thing that makes me particularly optimistic that what we're hearing from developers and publishers, is the ease in which they are able to get code running on PlayStation 5 is way beyond any experience they've had on any other PlayStation platform."
I got that quote from a different article. But essentially is the same thing he said on the game industry article.

 
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VFXVeteran

Neo Member
Nov 5, 2019
207
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PS3/PS4/Vita run FreeBSD. PS4 has 2 APIs, GNM (Mantle-like) and GNMX (DX11-like). PS5 will most likely run FreeBSD as well to guarantee BC:


Linux is not a good fit due to legal/licensing issues (GPL), only Google seems to use it:


DX12 and Vulkan are Mantle derivatives.
That's fine. There are many versions of Linux-like OSs was my point. In the end, it'll be some OS that will have a kernel, some SDKs, device drivers, etc..
 

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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That's fine. There are many versions of Linux-like OSs was my point. In the end, it'll be some OS that will have a kernel, some SDKs, device drivers, etc..
FreeBSD is not a Linux-like OS. Have you used any of them?

FreeBSD dates all the way back to Berkeley Unix.

Linux (as a kernel) is a more recent invention (early 90s) by Linus Torvalds.

It's like saying iOS and Android are basically the same thing.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
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I got that quote from a different article. But essentially is the same thing he said on the game industry article.

Ah, they clickbaited the sentence. Not shocking knowing the site.
 
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VFXVeteran

Neo Member
Nov 5, 2019
207
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FreeBSD is not a Linux-like OS. Have you used any of them?

FreeBSD dates all the way back to Berkeley Unix.

Linux (as a kernel) is a more recent invention (early 90s) by Linus Torvalds.

It's like saying iOS and Android are basically the same thing.
What are you getting at? I've never used FreeBSD nor iOS. I know Linux and all of it's variations. You are nit-picking the use of my words for an OS that doesn't matter since it's a development environment that allows use of an API (i.e. Vulkan) that can be easily ported to PC. The OS doesn't matter. The API that is used for the game engine matters. IOW, it'll be very easy to develop a game that uses an API that all hardware has drivers for.
 
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Mass Shift

Member
Jun 12, 2019
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Well Oberon is definitely Sony. More Shakespeare references too.

Aquarius could certainly be in the vein of Scorpio. But not at 500mm+
 

VFXVeteran

Neo Member
Nov 5, 2019
207
96
135
And it won't be Vulkan on PS5.
And even if it were Vulkan - it's a vendor extension-based API, i.e. code for PS5 will not directly run on non PS5 hardware.
Of course not if you write it that way. How do you know Vulkan won't be used on PS5 for any particular game? Are you basically saying that devs are forced to use the API that Sony provided them? Do you think Death Stranding will use a different API other than Vulkan for the PS5? That would be a lot of work.
 

bhunachicken

Member
Apr 11, 2018
420
531
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We've heard that same song every generation.
Huh? Did you somehow miss all the moaning about what a shit the PS3 was to develop for? It produced amazing results, but it was a nightmare to work with. I read about what Insomniac were doing with the SPUs in Resistance and it didn't sound like fun.

The PS4 was praised as being a dream by comparison and that we're now hearing that the PS5 has improved things is even better. Sony have quite clearly got their APIs all sorted and abstracted a lot of stuff away (while leaving it accessible to those who need / want it - the PS4 has two APIs: a high level and low level one).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software#System

For those familiar with frameworks, that list makes for good reading.
 
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psorcerer

Member
May 1, 2012
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Of course not if you write it that way. How do you know Vulkan won't be used on PS5 for any particular game? Are you basically saying that devs are forced to use the API that Sony provided them? Do you think Death Stranding will use a different API other than Vulkan for the PS5? That would be a lot of work.
Decima engine obviously doesn't use Vulkan at all. When it was created Vulkan was an unusable mess (now it's slightly better).
If my hunch is right and DS was first developed for PC, as early 2016 announcements were saying, they won't even use Decima for the PC version.
For a internal Sony developer like Guerilla there is no point in using any PC target hardware. Just more bugs and zero advantages.
 

psorcerer

Member
May 1, 2012
391
282
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Huh? Did you somehow miss all the moaning about what a shit the PS3 was to develop for? It produced amazing results, but it was a nightmare to work with. I read about what Insomniac were doing with the SPUs in Resistance and it didn't sound like fun.

The PS4 was praised as being a dream by comparison and that we're now hearing that the PS5 has improved things is even better. Sony have quite clearly got their APIs all sorted and abstracted a lot of stuff away (while leaving it accessible to those who need / want it - the PS4 has two APIs: a high level and low level one).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software#System

For those familiar with frameworks, that list makes for good reading.
When somebody wants "easy programming" it means they've already abandoned performance. Making a performant game is never easy because each abstraction has a cost.
 

VFXVeteran

Neo Member
Nov 5, 2019
207
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Decima engine obviously doesn't use Vulkan at all. When it was created Vulkan was an unusable mess (now it's slightly better).
If my hunch is right and DS was first developed for PC, as early 2016 announcements were saying, they won't even use Decima for the PC version.
For a internal Sony developer like Guerilla there is no point in using any PC target hardware. Just more bugs and zero advantages.

Where are you getting that it won't use Vulkan 'at all'. And your claim of no point in using PC target hardware is silly. If you are going to make a game for 2 platforms, both having similar hardware, why would you not make a general engine that can run on multiplats like every other 3rd party studio?
 
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Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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How do you know Vulkan won't be used on PS5 for any particular game? Are you basically saying that devs are forced to use the API that Sony provided them? Do you think Death Stranding will use a different API other than Vulkan for the PS5? That would be a lot of work.
What are you arguing now?

Sony consoles always use proprietary APIs, whether it's GCM or GNM. Even the shader language is heavily modified (PSSL).

It's best to do your own research first before insisting on stuff that are technically inaccurate (Linux, Vulkan). Don't confuse Google Stadia with Sony platforms.

Even Nintendo Switch uses a custom nVidia API (NVN) specifically tailored for Tegra X1.

Also, keep in mind that consoles have heterogeneous unified memory (unlike discrete RAM/VRAM on PCs) and their APIs take hUMA for granted.

That's why the porting process (see: RDR2) is not always flawless, especially if they make heavy use of HSA (CPU/GPU synergy).
 
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bhunachicken

Member
Apr 11, 2018
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When somebody wants "easy programming" it means they've already abandoned performance.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. We're not talking about wanting to use Python in place of C. It's perfectly possible to offer a high performant but crappy API that is difficult to debug and work with.

Consider something like SOAP vs REST. Both provide a method for interacting with web services over HTTP. However, SOAP requires far, far more boiler plate code and setup than REST. REST by contrast is very easy to put together, is far more performant, uses fewer resources, and conforms better with web standards. It is almost more flexible with data formats, whereas SOAP *must* use XML.

REST is, in almost every respect, better than SOAP. It is "easy programming". There's your difference in APIs. In many places I've work at in the past few years we've been ripping SOAP out and replacing it with REST because it has savings in almost every area (cost, overheads, etc.). I'm glad. The first time I was introduced to SOAP in 2001 I wondered why anyone would use such a wasteful system.

(we're moving off-topic here, so I'm not going to continue anymore with this discussion)
 

Negotiator

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Jun 28, 2011
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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. We're not talking about wanting to use Python in place of C. It's perfectly possible to offer a high performant but crappy API that is difficult to debug and work with.

Consider something like SOAP vs REST. Both provide a method for interacting with web services over HTTP. However, SOAP requires far, far more boiler plate code and setup than REST. REST by contrast is very easy to put together, is far more performant, uses fewer resources, and conforms better with web standards. It is almost more flexible with data formats, whereas SOAP *must* use XML.

REST is, in almost every respect, better than SOAP. It is "easy programming". There's your difference in APIs. In many places I've work at in the past few years we've been ripping SOAP out and replacing it with REST because it has savings in almost every area (cost, overheads, etc.). I'm glad. The first time I was introduced to SOAP in 2001 I wondered why anyone would use such a wasteful system.

(we're moving off-topic here, so I'm not going to continue anymore with this discussion)
Web programming is not a good example. Maybe UDP vs TCP socket programming.

Psorcerer is right. Low-level API programming is always more difficult and efficient than high-level API programming. We're strictly talking about CPU/GPU programming.

Low-level vs high-level is like manual vs automatic transmission in cars. Manual is always more efficient, but you need to be a proficient driver to take advantage of increased fuel efficiency. An inexperienced driver will most likely break the gear box.

I remember a certain dev saying that setting up a graphics engine in low-level API is like 1000s of lines of (boiler plate) code, while the high-level equivalent is only a few dozens of lines of code.

is it possible that PS5 has a base model and an 1000dollar "Anaconda" machine?
I don't think so. $600 is the max we can realistically expect with a $100 loss.
 

VFXVeteran

Neo Member
Nov 5, 2019
207
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135
What are you arguing now?

Sony consoles always use proprietary APIs, whether it's GCM or GNM. Even the shader language is heavily modified (PSSL).
Not saying I don't believe you, but again, where is your source for this? There is no publicly available documentation for this. Even if it was, the hardware is still x86/AMD/Nvidia. I don't care if I have to use a different OS for a graphics engine. My point is I'm going to make it portable (i.e. avoid hardware-specific calls or using data types that don't port easily -- unsigned ints vs. size_t for example).

It's best to do your own research first before insisting on stuff that are technically inaccurate (Linux, Vulkan). Don't confuse Google Stadia with Sony platforms.
I never insisted on anything. You are the one that's trying to 'technically' say what is and what isn't being developed on the PS5. Even if you were a game developer, you work for one company. That doesn't speak for other companies.

Even Nintendo Switch uses a custom nVidia API (NVN) specifically tailored for Tegra X1.
I can get this. But the Switch is so different hardware-wise to the consoles and PC, I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Also, keep in mind that consoles have heterogeneous unified memory (unlike discrete RAM/VRAM on PCs) and their APIs take hUMA for granted.
If the memory is virtually mapped, it doesn't matter. In fact, it makes it easier since you don't have to complicate reads/writes.

That's why the porting process (see: RDR2) is not always flawless, especially if they make heavy use of HSA (CPU/GPU synergy).
I never implied it was flawless, I implied it would be better than before and done quickly. In fact, I still believe that the dev kits have better hardware than the PS5 and therefore still continues to be developed on.

My best example is every multiplat game that comes out for both consoles and PC. The engine is tailored such that development can happen in tandem. I don't see why this wouldn't be the case for PS-only companies for next-gen looking to make PC versions too.
 
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Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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Not saying I don't believe you, but again, where is your source for this? There is no publicly available documentation for this.
You don't have to believe me, since there's plenty of official info:

PSSL: http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gdceurope2013/Presentations/825424RichardStenson.pdf
GNM vs GNMX: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

My point is I'm going to make it portable (i.e. avoid hardware-specific calls or using data types that don't port easily -- unsigned ints vs. size_t for example).
Why would they avoid hardware-specific calls if they can enhance performance?

For example, PS4/XB1 have TrueAudio DSP as a baseline. Why would they not use it? It doesn't make sense to use the CPU for that.

Tegra X1 has tiled rendering. Why would Nintendo Switch devs not use it?

I can get this. But the Switch is so different hardware-wise to the consoles and PC, I don't think that's a fair comparison.
Different in what sense? Tegra X1 is not even a semi-custom chip (unlike PS4/XB1 APUs), it's a mobile SoC with an nVidia Maxwell GPU.

We already know that Maxwell scales all the way from low-end (mobile) to high-end (PCs).

If it was radically different (like the 3DS GPU), you wouldn't see ports like Witcher 3. It still supports programmable shaders, GPU compute and stuff like that.

What differentiates Switch from Android devices is the custom software stack/libraries (made by nVidia):


That's why you see Tegra X1 punching above its weight in 1st party games such as LM3.

Would it be better if it was semi-custom? Sure, but that requires more money on Nintendo's part. MS paid 3 billion $$$ to AMD for XB1. Hardware customization ain't free.

If the memory is virtually mapped, it doesn't matter. In fact, it makes it easier since you don't have to complicate reads/writes.
Memory management is very different in consoles:



320 vs 1400 lines of code. PS4 certainly doesn't seem like a "bog standard PC" to me.
 

joe_zazen

Member
May 2, 2017
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Could someone elaborate on 505mm2 Navi chip source pretty please.

Chinese forum member from factory: oberon may be having having issues. next navi going to be 505mm^2. https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1573129117.A.216.html

also, now there is twitter to watch the electric shrimp.
it is just a Taiwanese/Chinese forum. Although a reliable twitter guy Komachi(?) confirmed it I think. Someone with a better memory can correct whatever i got wrong.
 
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psorcerer

Member
May 1, 2012
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Where are you getting that it won't use Vulkan 'at all'. And your claim of no point in using PC target hardware is silly. If you are going to make a game for 2 platforms, both having similar hardware, why would you not make a general engine that can run on multiplats like every other 3rd party studio?
Because you need that performance, and to get it you will need to use specific hardware to the fullest.
Using a PC and then pretend that consoles are just a "dumbed down PC" is a great cost saver, but I doesn't extract all the performance from the platform.
Right now PCs are used maybe to 20%-30%, usually bottlnecked at ROP/rt bandwidth level either by 4k or by 4k + AA.

Like right now Death Stranding on PS4 Pro looks so much better than RDR2 on PC, it's not even funny.
It looks "next gen" in comparison.
 
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sonomamashine

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Jun 29, 2019
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Could someone elaborate on 505mm2 Navi chip source pretty please.
 
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psorcerer

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That hyperbole though.
It's not a hyperbole.
Death Stranding is a first game where it was very hard for me to find polygon edges and bad uv maps and texturing.
RDR2 looks great but you can find a lot of places and angles where it's bad, really bad looking.
DS for some reason looks good from any angle. It's really next level.
 
Jul 29, 2013
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Could someone elaborate on 505mm2 Navi chip source pretty please.
I've been going over these posts and a lot is lost in the translation. From what I can gather:
-AquariusZi is leaking info from the Taiwan foundry/factory.
-They leaked the original post Komachi linked from October.
-They note that they had posted concerning previous "cases"(chips?), and that it was translated on Twitter for people who had trouble reading it(by Komachi?)
-Navi 21 is 505mm², technically the biggest in the history of the Temple(Foundry?)
-Navi 21 is not HBM, but a package designed to interface with GDDR
-Oberon is re-testing, Holiday 2020 is coming fast
--->October AquariusZi leak
-Oberon is PS5, Arden is Xbox
-Arden is further along
-Oberon is 300mm² vs Arden 350mm²
 

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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PS5 to be revealed on Dec 3?
Very interesting choice to use the PS1 intro!

Maybe Sony is preparing to celebrate the 25-year anniversary and drop the comprehensive PS1/2/3 BC megaton?

PS1 was released in late 1994 in Japan (3 December 1994) vs late 1995 in the West (NA/EU).

I certainly think that Twitter account is up to something. ;)