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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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BGs

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I agree with you. Altough XBSX makes for a more than spectacular number crunching machine it's based on the same paradigm as we have today. Sony's looking to change that altogether.
Regarding your SSD's size quote, you mean the 825GB because of the 12 chips or do you mean something else?

Yes, and its 12 independent channel interface.

Gotcha.

Still, I don't see multiplats take full advantage of this. We'll see.

It depends.

Summarizing the idea, people will have a hard time having an easy and accessible system (which could make their job easier) and not using it. It is like putting a "Waffle" in a free buffet and pretending to believe that they are not going to want to eat it.

If they use UE5 (which is usually the most normal in Third) I think that there will be quite a few that take advantage of it. Maybe not to show something much better than in XSX but probably to equal the possible power differences that may exist and that the result is the same to the human eye. PS5 does not revolutionize power. It revolutionizes its structure. This allows the developer to greatly facilitate his work.

At this point, what do you think developers will do? Both systems are powerful, that one possibly has a little more native resolution than the other? Maybe (or not). Does one have any more frames? Maybe (or not). But does all of the above really matter if in the end the result deceives your eyes? For me the answer is "no".

The reality is that it must be studied well from the beginning of the game's creation. It is much more expensive to create and optimize a game for XSX than for PS5. Similarly it is much more expensive to convert a game from PS5 to XSX than not from XSX to PS5. All this will have (or should have) an important weight in the development company when deciding how to make the game. Because many will say "well, the XSX SSD is also very fast", and it is true, it is very fast, but not enough together to eliminate load times entirely, even if it's a 2-second loading screen. That influences a lot when designing a video game. Hallways, elevators, cinemas, etc ... You can save all that on PS5. So the conversion affects not only the code but also the content creation. It may seem silly to many, but it is not. Can you get an idea of what it is to be able to use a ZBrush model without optimizing and with 8K textures and not have to worry about anything? It is outrageous in terms of video game development evolution. Although many think that this "sloppiness" or "nonchalance" may interfere with the final quality of the product (which I think will not be the case).

What I always say, the important thing will be the stories and the entertainment. To that you should start to get used to it, and stop counting pixels (at this point it is even childish).

PS. I was reading the message again in English and I think some words have not been properly translated. "Sloppiness? Nonchalance?". Take it with caution.
 
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Demon2blades

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Gotcha.

Still, I don't see multiplats take full advantage of this. We'll see.

Ue5 is a multiplat engine isn't it ?
So in theory anything built with this engine should take advantage of the ps5 SSD and I/0 If it's as easy to work with as some make out that's my guess I mean the ps5 was developed with game development in mind and it seems strange to think the ssd and I/o is some kind of niche feature that Devs won't use as much or to its fullest the SSD and I/O was developed to get the best out of the machine with ease .
 
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Sw0pDiller

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Talking in another thread yesterday most Xbox users expect/want MS to show the same demo.

I don’t believe that won’t happen because if Xbox can’t reach the same level of detail it will backfire to them.

MS will probably demo something that highlights the Xbox strengths like the GPU power.

What advantage would the 1,8tf more powerfull GPU be able to show? A minor resolution bump or a 3 fps advantage? Or could it be both? Besides that the IO would not be able to handle the 8k textures because of the obvious (relative) bottleneck compared with PS5's solution?

MS needs to show the world somekind of mayor difference with PS5 because this UE5 demo did not do their hard work any justice. We know PS5 got the games, halo and forza is not enough me thinks to turn heads that are looking towards PS5.
 

martino

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The biggest upgrade from current gen to next gen is the storage medium. We are talking about an upgrade from around 50MB/s to over 2.4 GB/s. The difference is massive and Digital Foundry really should talk about in depth. Especially when Tim Sweeney talks about how much an improvement the new I/O systems are compared to the old ones. The engine from Epic games will be used by many developers and it appears to be designed to take advantage of the new I/O solution.

Digital Foundry needs to talk about the SSDs more since it's a huge huge compared compared to last gen and extremely important for PC gaming as well.
Are you doubting they will when they have technical info or point of comparison to do it ?
How do you deduce i/o of this demo analyzing a video feed ?
how do you compare it when you have only this version available ?
 

ethomaz

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What advantage would the 1,8tf more powerfull GPU be able to show? A minor resolution bump or a 3 fps advantage? Or could it be both? Besides that the IO would not be able to handle the 8k textures because of the obvious (relative) bottleneck compared with PS5's solution?

MS needs to show the world somekind of mayor difference with PS5 because this UE5 demo did not do their hard work any justice. We know PS5 got the games, halo and forza is not enough me thinks to turn heads that are looking towards PS5.
I don’t know... that is MS to show and sell their product.
They need a demo focused in their strength that shows what Xbox is capable.
 

yewles1

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Marketing double speak is indeed a perilous minefield. And It is upto us enthusiasts to scrutinise it and come to conclusion based on known info paired with critical thinking...

Facts
  • We know PS5 has double the streaming Capability of XsX
  • We do not know how far the PS5 streaming architecture was pushed for the demo, however;
Assumptions
  • We can assume Epic wanted to market their engine at its best and therefore not actively restrict their vision, why would they?
  • If the above is true, they would therefore push the stream as far as it can go, the high speed flyover at the end seemingly reenforces it
  • If the 5.5gig was then utilised, a system with less stream capability would require nips and tucks to fit the gameplay within its asset capability

i cannot see anything but the above to be the most plausible assessment of the presentation
Another fact: We don't even know how refined the SSD and I/O were in that early devkit compared to what will be in the final product.
 

HawarMiran

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Whenever Alex speaks:







Yep add Ryan McCringy to the list too.
I think there is a reason he has a big ass scar on his face. HE ANNOYING AS FUCK BOI
 

ethomaz

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Are you doubting they will when they have technical info or point of comparison to do it ?
How do you deduce i/o of this demo analyzing a video feed ?
how do you compare it when you have only this version available ?
People are are using the Epic/Tim words.

“[The PS5] puts a vast amount of flash memory very, very close to the processor,” says Sweeney. “So much that it really fundamentally changes the trade-offs that games can make and stream in. And that’s absolutely critical to this kind of demo.”

You can not believe in any work comping from Epic but they created the tech demoed and People will just share what they said.

You only have the creator works so if you do an article you use what the creator said.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

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Nobody knows the reason except Epic themselves.

But there is another theory... Epic wanted to demo the best they can of the Nanite and PC today can't do that... so they choose PS5 due the storage tech allowing them today to demo what they wanted.

That theory matches with what Tim Sweeney just said:

"We’ve been working super close with Sony for quite a long time on storage. The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. [The PC market is] going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.”
 
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Yes, and its 12 independent channel interface.



It depends.

Summarizing the idea, people will have a hard time having an easy and accessible system (which could make their job easier) and not using it. It is like putting a "Waffle" in a free buffet and pretending to believe that they are not going to want to eat it.

If they use UE5 (which is usually the most normal in Third) I think that there will be quite a few that take advantage of it. Maybe not to show something much better than in XSX but probably to equal the possible power differences that may exist and that the result is the same to the human eye. PS5 does not revolutionize power. It revolutionizes its structure. This allows the developer to greatly facilitate his work.

At this point, what do you think developers will do? Both systems are powerful, that one possibly has a little more native resolution than the other? Maybe (or not). Does one have any more frames? Maybe (or not). But does all of the above really matter if in the end the result deceives your eyes? For me the answer is "no".

The reality is that it must be studied well from the beginning of the game's creation. It is much more expensive to create and optimize a game for XSX than for PS5. Similarly it is much more expensive to convert a game from PS5 to XSX than not from XSX to PS5. All this will have (or should have) an important weight in the development company when deciding how to make the game. Because many will say "well, the XSX SSD is also very fast", and it is true, it is very fast, but not enough together to eliminate load times entirely, even if it's a 2-second loading screen. That influences a lot when designing a video game. Hallways, elevators, cinemas, etc ... You can save all that on PS5. So the conversion affects not only the code but also the content creation. It may seem silly to many, but it is not. Can you get an idea of what it is to be able to use a ZBrush model without optimizing and with 8K textures and not have to worry about anything? It is outrageous in terms of video game development evolution. Although many think that this "sloppiness" or "nonchalance" may interfere with the final quality of the product (which I think will not be the case).

What I always say, the important thing will be the stories and the entertainment. To that you should start to get used to it, and stop counting pixels (at this point it is even childish).

PS. I was reading the message again in English and I think some words have not been properly translated. "Sloppiness? Nonchalance?". Take it with caution.

I really hope we are going to see some real next gen Gameplay in about 3 Weeks.
I want to be blown away and gettig excited like a kid.
What kind of wonderlands are we going to see and experience?

I really hope Sony sticks to VR and pushes it even more on next-gen.
I need this :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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BGs

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Remember that this is done with UE4.


You shouldn't be concerned about the graphic quality of the new consoles. What should concern you is the quality of creative minds.

PS. With one 1080Ti.
 
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ethomaz

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They already did, it was the RT Minecraft demo that Alex and others claimed was a game changer. That it didn’t get the traction U5 is getting is another story.
Did they show that RT Minecraft demo?
 
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Ptarmiganx2

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It will perform more or less the same, a few pixel less, after all it’s not the same machine. Same goes for the UE5 demo, it will probably run exactly the same only a few pixels more on the XSX because of the GPU and memory bandwidth and maybe a few models will take a fraction of a second to stream more polygons on the XSX during the fly-though scene. Nothing really visible to the layman.

No. The throughput is nowhere near the same. On paper the XSX looks better by traditional standards. Sony went for a non-traditional architecture that is being called god-level and unmatchable at any cost by the world‘s leading development platform. I’m not sure why Xbox fans can’t think outside the box. That is not standard praise, Epic is saying there is nothing like it in existence. Yet you know more than Epic. The XSX WILL NOT run the demo on par with he PS5 let alone with more pixels.
 
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Three Jackdaws

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What advantage would the 1,8tf more powerfull GPU be able to show? A minor resolution bump or a 3 fps advantage? Or could it be both? Besides that the IO would not be able to handle the 8k textures because of the obvious (relative) bottleneck compared with PS5's solution?

MS needs to show the world somekind of mayor difference with PS5 because this UE5 demo did not do their hard work any justice. We know PS5 got the games, halo and forza is not enough me thinks to turn heads that are looking towards PS5.
Exactly my thoughts, people are taking about a Series X demo which would look significantly better and it’s just not the case, slightly higher resolution but even that’s negligible imo.
 

Sethbacca

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What advantage would the 1,8tf more powerfull GPU be able to show? A minor resolution bump or a 3 fps advantage? Or could it be both? Besides that the IO would not be able to handle the 8k textures because of the obvious (relative) bottleneck compared with PS5's solution?

I would think that if you're streaming less detailed data due to storage speed limits but with more gpu power that you'll get higher resolution rendering but lower detail density. I do think honestly that we're talking about levels of texture detail and triangle density that for all intents and purposes are going to end up only being discernable in DF pause and zoom videos though. We're really hitting a wall where diminishing returns and simply throwing more textures and triangles on screen won't be readily apparent.

No real clue, I find all this shit fascinating though and want to see what Sony have in store for their first parties in any case.
 
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Ascend

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You’re throwing tomatoes at the wall now, to see what sticks.

Sony first party doesn’t have to worry about slower drives. Any of the other constraints you said also apply elsewhere and doesn’t diminish a thing. And by the way, multi platform engines are scalable...

And PlayStation VR... man what? Yes VR games will also benefit from it. Or you’re trying to imply something else?

Please don’t speak in riddles, it adds nothing to the conversation.
Did you actually read what I wrote, or do you reply on knee-jerk reactions? Did you miss this sentence;
"And yes, the same applies for the XSX too, so the PS5 advantage does not necessarily diminish. "

Regarding the VR thing... I'll give you another hint. Say you're walking around in a game with the thumbstick on your controller. How does your controller input "travel" through the system to change what is on-screen?
 
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ethomaz

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Yes. RT Minecraft at 1080p running at ~40fps on a XSX.
I don’t remember MS showing it at all... I can’t find any stream on YouTube too.

Was it a private showcase?
 
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Vae_Victis

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What advantage would the 1,8tf more powerfull GPU be able to show? A minor resolution bump or a 3 fps advantage? Or could it be both? Besides that the IO would not be able to handle the 8k textures because of the obvious (relative) bottleneck compared with PS5's solution?

MS needs to show the world somekind of mayor difference with PS5 because this UE5 demo did not do their hard work any justice. We know PS5 got the games, halo and forza is not enough me thinks to turn heads that are looking towards PS5.
XSX will probably have some tangible advantage in Ray Tracing, since those are mostly linked to the amount of CUs and there's a significant difference there over PS5 (52 vs 36). How much that will show in practice on a running game, however, is hard to say so far.

All in all, the general trend I can see for multiplatforms at least in the short term is
  • PS5: zero loading times, higher definition models, better 3D audio, possibly better textures
  • XSX: almost no loading times, slightly higher resolution and/or framerate, better ray tracing
 

Bladed Thesis

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XSX will probably have some tangible advantage in Ray Tracing, since those are mostly linked to the amount of CUs and there's a significant difference there over PS5 (52 vs 36). How much that will show in practice on a running game, however, is hard to say so far.

All in all, the general trend I can see for multiplatforms at least in the short term is
  • PS5: zero loading times, higher definition models, better 3D audio, possibly better textures
  • XSX: almost no loading times, slightly higher resolution and/or framerate, better ray tracing
Agreed.

Everybody on both sides should be happy and excited.

Going to be one helluva a generation.
 

Insane Metal

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I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:

It is easy. It is useless to have 12 boxes if they do not fit through the door all together.

You have 12 boxes to fill. So you can't pass all the boxes at once. You must decide which boxes will pass and which will not. That is handled by a coordinator. And the coordinator tells the delivery man which boxes to take.

Mrs. XSX wants to make the move as soon as possible, but it turns out that only 8 boxes can fit on the door at a time. The coordinator is fast, and also uses a box compressor so that 10 boxes can go through instead of 8, but there are several drawbacks. The compressor can only compress the red boxes, and the coordinator also has to coordinate many other things, street traffic, people passing through the door, the space in the room where the boxes are stored, the noise of neighbors who distract the delivery man, search and select what the boxes are filled with, etc. Also, the delivery man is not so fast and is very distracted filling and transporting boxes. So it passes the 10 boxes (not 12) at a certain speed "1x". The lady demands that the boxes arrive, but they do not arrive as quickly as the lady would like, since although she has many boxes, the system is not capable of managing all of them properly.

On the other hand we have Mrs. PS5. You only have 10 boxes to fill. But its door is twice as big, enough for all its boxes to enter at once and there is room for people to also enter and exit through the door. Furthermore, the coordinator has the ability to automatically discard unnecessary boxes, so he doesn't waste time checking boxes that are not going to be used. In addition, anyone in the environment can do the job of the coordinator or the delivery man (even at the same time). The compressor is not that new, but it can compress all boxes, whether they are red or blue. All. And the delivery man is more than twice as fast and manages to pass the boxes at the speed of "2.5x" in the worst case, and "5x" on many occasions. In addition, if someone is left free or without work, they can help to distribute boxes with the delivery man or coordinate work with the coordinator. All this makes this removal company the most efficient ever seen and that the number of boxes available is irrelevant. For that moving system, 12 boxes are not needed, with 10 you can do the same job (and more or better in some cases). Having more boxes would only make the price of the move more expensive without needing any of it.

Of course, having more boxes available always helps to advertise yourself as a top removal company compared to the competition, even if your removal company is normal and ordinary. But it is only that, a smokescreen.

That does not mean that XSX is bad, far from it, it is an extraordinary machine. But PS5 has an efficiency NEVER seen before.

It is true that on PC there are more powerful cards or more powerful systems, but you know that these cards are never used properly, they draw raw power, but they are never used. It is the scourge of PC, an ecosystem that is too varied and unusable. In addition to exorbitant prices.

And I've always been a PCLover, but things as they are, what I've seen on PS5 I only remember something similar when 3DFX and its Glide came out. Its astonishing speed leaves you speechless.

You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up. :)
 

Corndog

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No. The throughput is nowhere near the same. On paper the XSX looks better by traditional standards. Sony went for a non-traditional architecture that is being called god-level and unmatchable at any cost by the world‘s leading development platform. I’m not sure why Xbox fans can’t think outside the box. That is not standard praise, Epic is saying there is nothing like it in existence. Yet you know more than Epic. The XSX WILL NOT run the demo on par with he PS5 let alone with more pixels.
Who at epic is saying this demo would not be possible on series x?
 
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raul3d

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Did you actually read what I wrote, or do you reply on knee-jerk reactions? Did you miss this sentence;
"And yes, the same applies for the XSX too, so the PS5 advantage does not necessarily diminish. "

Regarding the VR thing... I'll give you another hint. Say you're walking around in a game with the thumbstick on your controller. How does your controller input "travel" through the system to change what is on-screen?
You are always talking in such a vague way. Instead of giving “hints”, why do you not precisely state what you want to tell? This would help a technical discussion.

My assumption about Nanite is, that it does not use fixed LOD versions of models anymore and instead permanently changes the geometric detail as needed, depending on how many pixels the mesh will cover. Ideally having 1 triangle per pixel. For this you have many continuous lookup requests into the “film” quality asset to resolve more (or less) detail. These requests need to be fast, since you do not preload/preresolve higher quality meshes as is needed and would resolve in popin otherwise.

For getting a lot of geometric changes, you do not have to move fast in absolute terms. Since mesh quality is related to the size of the object in screen space, even small absolute movements can have a big impact. Particularly in VR if you stand close (1m away) to that statue you cannot notice a lot of the details; if you move your head close to inspect it, you can resolve the geometry in a lot more detail and you can do that in a very short time span. Even worse, if you factor in foveated rendering and that VR usually uses teleportation for large movements.

Sure, you will not need a sustained bandwidth of multiple GB/s for this, but you need the data as fast as you can: Low latency and high burst speed.
 
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Are you doubting they will when they have technical info or point of comparison to do it ?
How do you deduce i/o of this demo analyzing a video feed ?
how do you compare it when you have only this version available ?

Same way they speculated on the PS5s specs with the GitHub leak.

All they have to do is look at the demo and Tim's comments. From there they can provide us with speculation of the importance of SSDs with Unreal Engine 5.
 
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Corndog

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No. The throughput is nowhere near the same. On paper the XSX looks better by traditional standards. Sony went for a non-traditional architecture that is being called god-level and unmatchable at any cost by the world‘s leading development platform. I’m not sure why Xbox fans can’t think outside the box. That is not standard praise, Epic is saying there is nothing like it in existence. Yet you know more than Epic. The XSX WILL NOT run the demo on par with he PS5 let alone with more pixels.
I think some of you need to look at this. Might help clear up whether more compute will give better performance.
 

Metroiddarks

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To be fair, it's just an admission to not knowing everything. I think that's ok. It certainly is much less condescending and confrontational than other reactions I saw.
Looks like for he is just admit than maybe he wasn't an authority to start to talk about what is possible or not while he return as the old Alex where explains in a simple
way the new features you see in an image I am ok with that and also learn to not accept all the invitations to all Discords rooms he invited because maybe just maybe
one day this discord can damage his image.
 

Bo_Hazem

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The point of Nanite is if you were to spend however many seconds it took to render a frame that literally contained billions of triangles from high quality source assets, and then fed those same assets into Nanite and let it losslessly crunch them down so they GPU only had to end up rendering a fraction of them, the resultant frames would be identical pixel for pixel

There’s no point having a thousand triangles hiding behind a single pixel that will eventually have that pixel be some one dimensional RGB value if you can crunch down the geometry before that stage to almost a single triangle that ends up giving you the same RGB value.

Nanite in UE5 means you can sling your highest quality assets in and have them rendered “as if” the GPU was crunching the whole lot in real time as far as the final frame is concerned.

That means for practical purposes there really are billions or triangles in that single frame (at least in a data-structure before Nanite goes to work) and the closer you move in to take a look, the more of them you’ll see from a given asset.

That’s incredible. It means practically infinite detail, infinite draw distance, zero pop-in, zero loading. Truly next-gen in a way that slapping higher resolution and even frame rate on what we already have just isn’t.

It’s the geometry side of adding detail just simply DONE.

Was this really what Cerny meant when he said “when triangles are small...”? Was he talking literally with this technology in mind?

A lot of trying to be done to cynically dismiss what Cerny and Sweeney are saying as just marketing or even somehow political in nature.
They are both proven and successful game engine engineers.
If they can be dismissed as just being clever at marketing and misleading the public with the UE5 demo (even at the expense of alienating all other platforms/customers in the case of Epic), then gaming journalists and technodabblers and babblers here can be dismissed as knowing far less about the subject than either of these two men.

Great post as usual, sir! About the more polygons per pixel, I think it's necessary as we're talking about real-life assets that we want them to look like real life. Meaning, you have each polygon with its unique colors, so when all crushed into one pixel they will represent a mixture of all instead of one color and it'll always strike you as real-life vision mimicking. I think that, not sure, not to mention that if you manage to load them as they are then anti-aliasing will be a laughable, ancient tech.

 
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THE:MILKMAN

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Yall remember this?:

Well, It turned out it was just '' The Ascent '', that isometric game revealed on Inside Xbox.
I particularly liked what was shown of the game, but I don't know if it was worth the hype they made for the magazine.



To be fair:

1, Edge didn't really hype it up and in fact the clue 'the next generation rises' is literally correct as the editor said (Ascent = rise)
2, I have a soft spot for isometric games from the 16-bit era and Ascent looks good.
3, Sadly print media, even Edge, is pretty irrelevant in today's world...:(. I remember Edge getting the 10-page exclusive for the new consoles.

I expect PSM's OPM's hands-on with PS5 games will also be from smaller devs and Indies.
 
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ethomaz

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I think some of you need to look at this. Might help clear up whether more compute will give better performance.
I was curious to know where the Nanite rasterization is done... I was guessing in CPU.
But in Async Compute makes sense too.
Just that Epic said it won’t affect GPU rasterizer performance.
 
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Metroiddarks

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Again with the 100GB 🤦🤦🤦

This kind of people I am suprising they actually think they even understand what is the meaning of Bandwidth.

Also everytime some one brings a feature like if was magic like BCpack, XSX is a good machine just they use a much slower SSD but hey the have almost 18% more TF
which is the important right?:lollipop_smirking:

In the end as I said multiple times the focus of Xbox should be in games not in hardware, Xbox one X doesn't increment the sales enough to compite with Sony or even Nintendo.
 
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