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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Shmunter

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that's the whole point of PS5 SSD to stream highest quality assets without creating LOD's to cut dev time, it's like 2 hits with one shot (highest possible details and reduced dev time) doesn't pro and xonex already uses 4K textures in some games?
everything seems planed by sony in advance while making PS5. i'm not saying 8K textures will be in every game but i think moving on it could become standart.
People aren’t making a big enough of a deal of the paradigm shift for developers here. There’s ton of work needed now that will simply vanish overnight if targeting next gen only using techniques shown by UE5 paired with mass ram/data.

Those people can be instead creating more art content instead of prebaking normal maps and LOD levels etc.
 
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Has Sony patented anything on varifocal actuation? That's really the missing piece to VR, what stops you from focusing on near and far objects without blurriness. As it stands now, none of the current headsets can adjust for the changing shape of the eye as you shift focus. Varifocal actuation + foveated rendering would be out of this world.

I think they've got patents out there for everything. The accommodation reflex gets some people but I've never found it jarring or uncomfortable.
 
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kourooshkabir

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mel gibson picture ?

Xbox Series S ?




Braveheart = Lockhart

Lockhart Name Meaning
Scottish: of uncertain origin, probably from a Germanic personal name composed of the elements loc ‘lock’, ‘bolt’ + hard ‘hardy’, ‘brave’, ‘strong’. English: occupational name for a herdsman in charge of a sheep or cattlefold, from Old English loc ‘enclosure’, ‘fold’ + hierde ‘herd(er)’. Americanized form of German Luckhardt.

 
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Have you by any chance read Peter Watts' books? He explores the ideas of perception and consciousness in a very engaging way. I also found this very interesting since DualSense is getting a heartbeat sensor.

The last I book I read on this kind of perception was Phantoms in the Brain by V S Ramachandran. That link didn't work for me, but I've not read anything by Peter Watts, thanks for the suggestion.

Is it confirmed DualSense has a heart rate sensor? I thought that was just a Sony patent? They have patents for lots of things and most don't end up in the final product, or are intended for much further down the road.
 
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FeiRR

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The last I book I read on this kind of perception was Phantoms in the Brain by V S Ramachandran. That link didn't work for me, but I've not read anything by Peter Watts, thanks for the suggestion.

Is it confirmed DualSense has a heart rate sensor? I thought that was just a Sony patent? They have patents for lots of things and most don't end up in the final product, or are intended for much further down the road.
Sorry, the correct link is here. As for DualSense, I don't think it's officially confirmed. But there were rumours other than the patent.

Peter Watts' books are hard s-f but he's a biologist and gives plenty of scientific reference for his creative visions.
 
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husomc

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I guess this reflects what Cerny was saying about assets loading in on the fly.
Sorta sounds like they're implying this exact demo wouldn't be possible on any other system, as well :messenger_hushed:

Anyone think it's possible for the PS5 to stream assets directly from SSD to the CPU/GPU ? Could they like load some static assets (like character textures) to GDDR6 and stream the vertex data/rapidly changing assets directly form SSD to CPU/GPU ?
 
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Uzupedro

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According to the reddit post, EPIC china engineers said that the use of SSD is not as heavy as they suggested, employees of a branch would deny the speech of the company's own CEO ? I do not doubt that the demo runs on a PC, but the translation is at least strange. Let's see how this plays out.
 
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Thirty7ven

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So direct words from Sweeney about the integration of ssd streaming as pivotal, not worth mentioning, in fact shouldn’t discuss it.

But, and get this, a translation from CHINESE, which could quite likely be total bunk deserves a round of applause..

Jesus Wept. What are you doing DF!?!

Google won't translate from the video, so I don't doubt the veracity of it but it would be cool to have someone who speaks the language translate from the source.

What google translation tells me though is that the thread in that forum is just 6 or so guys fanboy warring each other, and one of them apparently called the guy from the video and the EPIC guy told him it was a 2080 but had forgotten about which SSD, or indeed any other detail beyond that. It's hard for me to believe that story of his, you know, that he called the guy and he just so happens to respond with the most obvious of answers.
 
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On a slightly tangential note, I'd love to see No Man's Sky II on this engine. I wonder how it would work with procedural generation.

Man I just started playing that a few weeks ago. This game has many inspiring ideas. But the travelspeed on planets and to/from planets really bugs me. Well my cpu is heavily outdated so its running like crap anyways. But for me its fun.
Ever since Cernys talk I couldn't stop thinking about how that tech could improve games like no man sky.
Add some fancy nect-gen prodcedural generation on top and games like this could entertain me for months. ( I usually get bored pretty fast by non narrative repeating games).

I'm getting really excited about the transformation in games and game design next-gen consoles are going to provide.
 

Imtjnotu

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According to the reddit post, EPIC china engineers said that the use of SSD is not as heavy as they suggested, employees of a branch would deny the speech of the company's own CEO ? I do not doubt that the demo runs on a PC, but the translation is at least strange. Let's see how this plays out.
It's from reddit. Who is to even say they actually work at epic lol
 

Rusco Da Vino

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they'll never give up
Official statement from Tim Sweeney, CEO and Fourder of Epic Games 👇

“We’ve been working super close with Sony for quite a long time on storage,” he says. “The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. [The PC market is] going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.”

Source:
But "Epic China" via a random person in a chinese forum knows better :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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pawel86ck

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Official statement from Tim Sweeney, CEO and Fourder of Epic Games 👇

“We’ve been working super close with Sony for quite a long time on storage,” he says. “The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. [The PC market is] going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.”

“The Unreal Engine 5 demo on PlayStation 5 was the culmination of years of discussions between Sony and Epic on future graphics and storage architectures.

Source:
But "Epic China" knows better :messenger_tears_of_joy:
But some people also suggest PS5 I/O customizations are useless, because according to them MS can achieve the same thing on PC with software (direct storage API). I personally doubt it's possible to fix all bottlenecks related to SDD data transfer just with software, but that's what people say.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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You're watching a YT video with terrible compression. You shouldn't make any assumptions based on that.

It's very terrible on 1080p with insane squares all over the place, but at 4K it's very, very sharp and clear. I watch so much 4K content on youtube, and the beginning of that demo is razor sharp before action. It's very visible and if someone interested I can make screenshots pointing out all those points which someone could enlarge and zoom the DF way :messenger_winking_tongue:
 

Thirty7ven

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But some people also suggest PS5 I/O customizations are useless, because according to them MS can achieve the same thing on PC with software (direct storage API). I personally doubt it's possible to fix all bottlenecks related to SDD data transfer just with software, but that's what people say.

People will say anything.
We will know in five months how multiplatform games compare in H2H. And we will be able to compare how exclusives look too.
 
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ethomaz

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According to the reddit post, EPIC china engineers said that the use of SSD is not as heavy as they suggested, employees of a branch would deny the speech of the company's own CEO ? I do not doubt that the demo runs on a PC, but the translation is at least strange. Let's see how this plays out.
I can't watch due language restrictions.
If you can ask him if what he run on his notebook has the same level of detail (generated triangles) than what we saw in PS5 demo.

Nanite can run in any system the different will be the level of detail according with how the storage media feed the software rasterizer.

It is weird this talking happening from somebody in Epic China when the creators of the Nanite are all English guys.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

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But some people also suggest PS5 I/O customizations are useless, because according to them MS can achieve the same thing on PC with software (direct storage API). I personally doubt it's possible to fix all bottlenecks related to SDD data transfer just with software, but that's what people say.
When you say some people, do you mean TimDog and his legion of puppets? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Come on, man.
 
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Vae_Victis

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But some people also suggest PS5 I/O customizations are useless, because according to them MS can achieve the same thing on PC with software (direct storage API). I personally doubt it's possible to fix all bottlenecks related to SDD data transfer just with software, but that's what people say.
If due to the way the hardware infrastructure is built it takes 2 milliseconds for part A to talk to part B, and then 3 more milliseconds for part B to talk to part C, how powerful parts A, B or C are or how optimized their APIs and drivers are is completely irrelevant: the complete process will NEVER take less than 5 milliseconds. You cannot cheat physics and electricity with software optimization.

This is the "power of the cloud" all over again, when Microsoft touted that they could simulate real-time physics in their games remotely, when it was obvious that the intrinsic latency alone would make it a non-starter in 99% of the circumstances.

Only difference this time is, as far as I can tell, it's directly the people at the bottom making up physically-impossible bollocks, not Microsoft.
 

pawel86ck

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Thirty7ven

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I can't watch due language restrictions.
If you can ask him if what he run on his notebook has the same level of detail (generated triangles) than what we saw in PS5 demo.

Nanite can run in any system the different will be the level of detail according with how the storage media feed the software rasterizer.

It is weird this talking happening from somebody in Epic China when the creators of the Nanite are all English guys.


Epic guy in the video says you don't need specs like the PS5 to run the demo. He has the demo running on his laptop in editor mode. They are targeting 60FPS for next gen consoles but not there yet. He says SSD will help because Luminen and Nanite require good IO (very weird, why does Lumen require good IO??).

This comes from a dude who's main language is mandarin, on purple forum.

Apparently the Epic guy doesn't mention specs nor performance, nor settings. He just talks about his notebook running the demo.

But it's really odd that he says IO helps with Lumen? What?
 
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ANIMAL1975

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But some people also suggest PS5 I/O customizations are useless, because according to them MS can achieve the same thing on PC with software (direct storage API). I personally doubt it's possible to fix all bottlenecks related to SDD data transfer just with software, but that's what people say.
Exactly, we're talking about software against custom hardware, in a closed box system!... With years of research and development dedicated to its engineering!
And that will come with a dedicated, and also fully customized, software support tool set... the high level and low level PS5 API that we haven't even seen yet.
 

ethomaz

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Epic guy in the video says you don't need specs like the PS5 to run the demo. He has the demo running on his laptop in editor mode. They are targeting 60FPS for next gen consoles but not there yet. He says SSD will help because Luminen and Nanite require good IO (very weird, why does Lumen require good IO??).

This comes from a dude who's main language is mandarin, on purple forum.

Apparently the Epic guy doesn't mention specs nor performance, nor settings. He just talks about his notebook running the demo.

But it's really odd that he says IO helps with Lumen? What?
Yeap that is what I'm getting... he is saying nothing new at all.... it was know since reveal the demo can run even in slow storage medias and low-end GPU-CPU.

I wanted to ask him if it running with the same level of detail than PS5.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

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For example this guy "Exodia"

A unvetted neo member with 8 post? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Check this piece of info/opinion (from someone in the industry) vetted by Mod of War Mod of War and see how the XSX bottleneck could opetare:
It is easy. It is useless to have 12 boxes if they do not fit through the door all together.

You have 12 boxes to fill. So you can't pass all the boxes at once. You must decide which boxes will pass and which will not. That is handled by a coordinator. And the coordinator tells the delivery man which boxes to take.

Mrs. XSX wants to make the move as soon as possible, but it turns out that only 8 boxes can fit on the door at a time. The coordinator is fast, and also uses a box compressor so that 10 boxes can go through instead of 8, but there are several drawbacks. The compressor can only compress the red boxes, and the coordinator also has to coordinate many other things, street traffic, people passing through the door, the space in the room where the boxes are stored, the noise of neighbors who distract the delivery man, search and select what the boxes are filled with, etc. Also, the delivery man is not so fast and is very distracted filling and transporting boxes. So it passes the 10 boxes (not 12) at a certain speed "1x". The lady demands that the boxes arrive, but they do not arrive as quickly as the lady would like, since although she has many boxes, the system is not capable of managing all of them properly.

On the other hand we have Mrs. PS5. You only have 10 boxes to fill. But its door is twice as big, enough for all its boxes to enter at once and there is room for people to also enter and exit through the door. Furthermore, the coordinator has the ability to automatically discard unnecessary boxes, so he doesn't waste time checking boxes that are not going to be used. In addition, anyone in the environment can do the job of the coordinator or the delivery man (even at the same time). The compressor is not that new, but it can compress all boxes, whether they are red or blue. All. And the delivery man is more than twice as fast and manages to pass the boxes at the speed of "2.5x" in the worst case, and "5x" on many occasions. In addition, if someone is left free or without work, they can help to distribute boxes with the delivery man or coordinate work with the coordinator. All this makes this removal company the most efficient ever seen and that the number of boxes available is irrelevant. For that moving system, 12 boxes are not needed, with 10 you can do the same job (and more or better in some cases). Having more boxes would only make the price of the move more expensive without needing any of it.

Of course, having more boxes available always helps to advertise yourself as a top removal company compared to the competition, even if your removal company is normal and ordinary. But it is only that, a smokescreen.

That does not mean that XSX is bad, far from it, it is an extraordinary machine. But PS5 has an efficiency NEVER seen before.

It is true that on PC there are more powerful cards or more powerful systems, but you know that these cards are never used properly, they draw raw power, but they are never used. It is the scourge of PC, an ecosystem that is too varied and unusable. In addition to exorbitant prices.

And I've always been a PCLover, but things as they are, what I've seen on PS5 I only remember something similar when 3DFX and its Glide came out. Its astonishing speed leaves you speechless.
Via: Insane Metal Insane Metal
 
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ethomaz

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First Dictator, now Tom Warren. All praise UE5 demo, it was that disruptive.

It was really a next-gen evolution.
Perhaps PS3 to PS4 didn't have so much evident jump.
If you add RT then PS3 to PS4 looks like a half-step gen change.
 
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For example this guy "Exodia"

This point is always made under the assumption all Sony have done is put in a fast SSD. They haven't. The Kraken decompressor would otherwise consume 9 Zen2 cores, and the other hardware IO coprocessors another 2 cores, all of which now leaves the PS5 CPU free to work on the game.

The part of SFS people keep quoting as having a multiplier effect is standard AMD and has been around in some form since GCN architecture. Neither system will have to load the entire texture. Sony also has hardware to eliminate the RAM check-in process. It has another chip dedicated to keeping the RAM and GPU cache coherent by selectively scrubbing only areas that are no longer valid, instead of stalling the GPU by causing a complete cache flush and subsequent miss and re-fetch from RAM.

Sony have also created a new storage API system as Mark Cerny briefly mentioned in the Eurogamer interview. It's done way with filenames. You give it an ID, and where you want it to go into RAM, and then the hardware and API handles it all for you.

The constantly pushed narrative that Sony went for fast hardware and Microsoft instead elected to close the gap with software is nonsense. Sony spent more money and die space on IO relative to GPU, and has optimised the entire IO pipeline from NAND to GPU cache, along with software stack that drives it, too.

XSX has outright more compute, no gap closing on raw GPU compute, although the rest of the GPU fixed functions will be working more quickly. We'll have to wait and see how much difference is made.

PS5 has outright double the IO capability of the XSX, no gap closing there either. We'll have to wait and see how much difference this actually makes, too. Sweeney has said the UE5 demo as shown was only possible due to the progress made by Sony on IO (although NVMe and XSX can use Nanite and Lumen), but now some Chinese EPIC division appears to have said they ran the demo on a laptop, but without any clarification on whether it was at the same quality.

I'm personally hoping the UE5 demo wasn't hitting peak IO and there's still more to come.
 

husomc

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It's wonderful, indeed, but here's what I notices: (Note I'm watching it on my 55" 4K tv about 2.5m away)

-Resolution is dropping quite often partially (VRS) and overall (dynamic).
-The main marble ball is insanely full of noise and particles.
-There is sudden stutter and buffer at some parts and framerates droping below 30fps.
-Anti-aliasing is not doing a great job at the end with ladder effects visible.

Overall, I still think it's a very good tech, but I think we should start to see graphics cards with massive RAM (VRAM) or even going the extra mile and having dedicated memory inside them to have the whole game in it, even if temporarily with ultra fast SSD outside to offload it when done.
That's how marketing works. Sell people on something that they don't need. And then make a killing.
 

FeiRR

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It's very terrible on 1080p with insane squares all over the place, but at 4K it's very, very sharp and clear. I watch so much 4K content on youtube, and the beginning of that demo is razor sharp before action. It's very visible and if someone interested I can make screenshots pointing out all those points which someone could enlarge and zoom the DF way :messenger_winking_tongue:
It's razor sharp before action because that's how compression works. With worse quality of most streaming services right now, you're going to get artifacts in moving fragments of the video, that ball to be precise. Raytracing artifacts look different, more grainy. Also there's no reason why a powerful RTX card wouldn't be able to deal with one object of that size.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Just a little something:

Textures are generally squares to make them easier to tile and break up for parallel computing, or for different quality levels within the same file. It’s a 1:1 aspect ratio image file. It’s a piece of data.

A 4K texture has nothing at all to do with a 4K game or TV.

One is literally a 4096x4096 image that gets pasted over a 3D model. The other is the final output resolution of a game, or TV, at 3840x2160 at 16:9.

The same applies to an 8K texture versus a new 8K TV. They are totally different things, and you don’t choose 4K textures for a 4K game and a “1080P” texture for a 1080P game, etc

There’s no such thing as a 1080P texture, or a 480P texture. There is such a thing as a 512x512 texture, and a 1024x1024 texture etc

When you confuse the two or imply they’re connected to make some kind of a point, you just show that you don’t really understand what you’re talking about.

Also, nobody (that I can recall in this thread) ever said Nanite and Lumen wouldn’t run on XSX or PC. The point being made was that this particular “Lumen in the land of Nanite” scripted demo was made entirely for PS5 by leaning heavily on its IO capabilities, and wouldn’t be possible without changes on other hardware with slower IO, like XSX and PCs.
This is what Sweeney said when it was first revealed, this is what he recently was compelled to clarify.

The demo shown and the engine are two different things.
UE5 with its Nanite and Lumen technologies will do amazing things on PS5, XSX and high-end PCs with NVMe SSDs.
The specific UE5 demo shown is pushing Nanite hard and was only possible due to Sony’s IO in this instance.

It’s not hard. It’s what Sweeney said originally. It’s what an Epic spokesperson said when contacted by Kotaku. It’s what Sweeney again clarified on Twitter.

Separate the game from the engine.

UE5 works on pretty much all devices.
Lumen and Nanite can be used on all devices with the required resources (CPU/GPU/IO).
Lumen in the Land of Nanite can be ran on anything with enough CPU/GPU/IO to keep up with the amount of assets in it, and how fast the character is moving through the world. Something Sweeney has repeatedly said is only possible with Sony’s IO.
It would make no sense at all to build a tech demo for PS5 and then only use less than 2.4GB/s raw storage speed. That’s not a technical demo. If LitLoN did use way less than 2.4GB/s raw storage speed you can bet they’d already have shown it running on XSX and PC as part of how amazing their engine is, which is what they’re really there to sell.

Amazing post, as usual. But about the 8K/4K/1080p etc assets we know it's not literal, meaning it's simplification. As for 8K it should use like 33.2 megapixels for an image, and 8.5 MP for 4K, and 2.1 MP for 1080p. But it's not that simple, every so-called 8K asset could vary between like 28-40MP for example as each asset has its unique shape. I think most of us understand that but even Quixel is using that simplified method for better labeling when in reality some small 8K rocks can even be 5 MP for example.
 
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One is an open world game the other is a linear playable movie. Not a fair comparison. Besides, they’re both cross gen

Everyone gets a clean slate once these new consoles drop :p
Uncharted 4 and Lost Odyssey opted for hub structures years ago, TLOU 2 will do it even more. Sure, it's far more linear than an open world, but it's not Uncharted 2.
 

Apollo Helios

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I can smell the same, probably in a slightly different way? Not sure. I'm more than excited about their stacked chiplets, I can see PS5 Pro using something smaller, similar combining an equivalent of 2x APU's like PS4 Pro:



Not sure about heat management, but those cooling pipes penetrating through the APU is already interesting about the leaked info of PS5 cooling solution. We shall wait and see, I'm not understanding it enough.
I think that X3D PACKAGING is spot on for PS5 SoC, in fact it can be a whole SIP which is something Moore's Law Is Dead YT guy has heard from one of his source who said about PS5 chip, "Think Vita" and it makes perfect sense when you also figure the cooling patent into the picture.

Article explaining PS Vita chip




Now remember Sweeney mentioned NAND chips so close to main processor, it almost removes any access latency, so it is quite possible those chips are stacked around the main die in a single package -> APU in middle and NAND chips around 4 sides and stacked 3 times to make 12 total, in a single package connected by Infinity fabric and secondary storage controller chip. They would be so close that it compares to VRAM chips latency times, as they are still conventionally all around the SIP.



Just look at the monstrous Package size in that image, it is almost as big as the heat sink. Middle is PCB where the heat dissipation rods go through. And the thing inscribed as '5' is the giant SIP with main APU, storage controller and stacked NAND chips all connected with Infinity Fabric. And that gives you >10x bandwidth and it makes perfect sense for a custom engineers piece of hardware like PS5. Now we know why the console and cooling design is best kept secret and hyped up beyond anything for the reveal.

"A heatsink (21) is disposed on a lower surface of a circuit board (10). The circuit board (10) has through holes (h1) that penetrate the circuit board (10) in an area (A) where an integrated circuit apparatus (5) is disposed. Heat conduction paths (11) are provided in the through holes (h1). The heat conduction paths (11) connect the integrated circuit apparatus 5 and the heatsink (21). This structure allows for disposition of a component different from the heatsink (21) on the same side as the integrated circuit apparatus (5), thus ensuring a higher degree of freedom in a component layout"
 
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Three Jackdaws

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I highly recommend watching it, he goes through a lot of information especially how next-gen will effect development of games and also the actual workflow of gaming studios because they won't be spending hours on certain tasks they need to do with current gen.

A quote which really stood out to me and really ties into whether this technical demo relied on PS5's SSD I/O. Keep in mind this game development engineer is not even familiar with the PS5 specs.

"Just having to sort through all this data, I'm sure this demo is like hundreds of gigabytes , because there is so much texturing, so much triangles, so just reading that data, it's interesting to look at the PS5 architecture, I'm sure a lot of this is being streamed in from disk (SSD), every frame, that SSD has to be blazingly fast, that relationship between disk and VRAM, has to be really tight and think it has to be specific to this architecture"
 
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banjo5150

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Sorry I'm back for a minute just to say:
Do we fuck care about PS5 and SeX power difference after this?
Called it.
Have fun counting the grains of sand on the floor, one of the two consoles sure can render more.
Bye.

I was just thinking like this, but I am definitely interested where these 2 consoles are going. At the end of the day I will be with a PS5 as Sony has more of the type of games I play. Doesn't matter if it has more or less power.
 
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