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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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JerryinSoCal

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i hear Days Gone had many problems and bugs during launch maybe that affected the score, i played a few months ago so i didn't encounter any bugs, but anyway the game is great it's a little slow at the beginning but i didn't care because the gameplay is great specially taking down hordes

the game looks great and the weather effects was one of the best i've seen this gen, can't wait to see how the sequel will look like on PS5


only problem i had was the loading times it's probably one of the worst this gen

Days Gone had a day one patch that fixed a lot of issues that reviewers didn't have access to, they kept fixing it even more and they got it all patched up and running great very quickly. I love that game, I'm not into biker culture at all but really found most of the characters relatable or at least they made me care about them. The gameplay feels really good and the graphics are top notch.
 
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Nowcry

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You shouldn't be arguing with VFX, it's still blinded by the superiority of the PC, and VFX hasn't realized the reality yet.

Currently PC Tflops are literally thrown away for simple geometries due to the lack of large GDDR in current GPUs. Due to this lack, it is necessary to exchange assets during the game and as a consequence PS5 has implemented the I / O and its entire system.

VFX makes the same mistake as Linus at first. VFX thinks that PC is superior in everything but it really is not the case, PC has a problem using the I / O controller. It is true that there are Raid0 SSD capable of 14,000 MB / s but those rates are achieved on:

SSD to System
SSD to RAM

But you can't get SSD to GDDR. This step is much more complicated.


After a great chat with a Systems Dev on Reddit, I was able to understand the following:
The transmission of SSD to GDDR needs to go through a buffer that can be disabled to gain bandwidths at the cost of latencies, but the main problem is the GPU Driver Overload, it is a function translator inherent in that PC is an open hardware, due to that not all GPUs speak the same functions or even between GPUs of the same brand, this changes even between generations of GPUs from the same manufacturer. Removing it is simply building a closed hardware console.

GPU Driver is the bottleneck, it is currently impossible to transmit data to the GDDR without getting GPU driver Overload to paralyze everything to its capacity.

Therefore the PC not only has problems with the I / O controller as well, as it suffers from many interruptions due to the data fabric, there are problems on the side of communication with the GPUs, and also on the side of latencies. And neither seems to have a close solution. First, NVMe needs to get 7 GB / s to start.


PC will get past PS5 in not too long, possibly brute force, I doubt that PC will actually make an architecture change, just as I also doubt that AMD Nvidia Intel will agree to a universal language and avoid GPU driver Overload. Each company optimizes its functions and its communications, that simply will not happen.

I have heard that Nvidia has a plan called NVcache that will consist of bringing using a DMA data from the SSD directly and using the tensor core to translate the operations and perform the GPU Driver Overload tasks and put them in the GDDR with internal compression.

Another option is GPU with integrated SSD where at the beginning of the game you should wait a few seconds for the SSD to fill up and then play with a large I / O. This version according to Tim Sweeny is too expensive and complex.

Until PC does not change things with GPU driver Overload or we see if Nvidia has really solved it I would not buy or change PC soon.
Until the change does not happen, the GPUs on PC will be totally wasting their potential. Brute force should work, they could overtake PCIe gen 5, in turn they should improve the CPU I / O controller from now on, DDR5 with its great capabilities and high rates. And use CPU cores to perform GPU driver Overhead tasks. Possibly about 4 or 6 threads dedicated to this. Maybe Direct Storage and some Strategies can lower these needs to much fewer threads and hopefully it is true but in reality we have not yet obtained proof of this. I hope that they succeed so the change would really be much easier.

Once they do, it should still be standardized a bit before companies spend too much time on it. The road is going to be much more expensive than a PS5 both in money and in waiting time.

My recommendation for now is to buy the PS5 and wait to see how this whole adventure ends on PC. To finally make a smart purchase. While this happens the PS5 games that do one of the I / O will be demoted to using a SSD Sata more or less. Leaving a simpler geometry and therefore a lot of Tflops thrown in really stupid glitters instead of real graphics.

I hope the translator does a good job here.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Feb 10, 2020
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Salalah, Oman
Hope I haven't missed anyone 🤔

fun fact
There is actually 4 people including Craig in the night sky, can you see the mysterious 4 person?

Is that EviLore? :lollipop_tears_of_joy: And that naughty xbox fangirl on the Craig moon.:messenger_winking_tongue:
 

jose4gg

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Some xbox fanboys here are not trusting Xbox officials that Halo Infinite is built from the ground up to take full advantage of Xbox Series X, but that "representative of Xbox Series X" according to xbox officials is struggling at 4K with missing assets, VRS downgrading the resolution severely down to 720p partially, disappearing assets, slow LOD streaming, extremely low quality distant graphics, non-interactive foliage, bad lighting and shadows, extreme pop-ins.





If the "representative of Xbox Series X" is powerful/efficient enough it won't be using severe VRS downgrades to help sustain 60fps at such poor IQ.

How could this look on OG Xbox One?


And people thought that DF not founding evidence of VRS in PS5 was a bad thing...
 

TLZ

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On a slightly different note, Peter Moore is leaving Liverpool FC after a very successful spell and going back to the US. I wonder if he's going back to gaming? Any possibility of going back to MS or EA?
 

Shmunter

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"I think it's going away entirely."

That's "very confident" to you?

He seems confused to me lol

I tell ya, Xbox brining down the online paywall would be the big ticket item, not gamepass, not XsX, just free online. Being able to buy an Xbox console and play freely without ongoing fees would encourage Sony owners to sample the other side on a whim. And if they like what they see, increasingly spend within the ecosystem.

This is how you turn heads MS. Nothing else will work.
 

onQ123

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If someone made a game like Dreams that used compute rendering Xbox Series X would be more powerful or if the game has a lot of effects using compute but it seems that PS5 is going to show off on Xbox Series X in most cases & people who only seen the TFLOPs number & said Xbox Series X is more powerful are going to be confused by some side by side comparisons.
 

SlimySnake

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I tell ya, Xbox brining down the online paywall would be the big ticket item, not gamepass, not XsX, just free online. Being able to buy an Xbox console and play freely without ongoing fees would encourage Sony owners to sample the other side on a whim. And if they like what they see, increasingly spend within the ecosystem.

This is how you turn heads MS. Nothing else will work.
They also have the most powerful console or rather the console with the most tflops. they will win every DF face/off and people will be encouraged to go to Xbox to play the best version of the games.
 

Gamernyc78

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I tell ya, Xbox brining down the online paywall would be the big ticket item, not gamepass, not XsX, just free online. Being able to buy an Xbox console and play freely without ongoing fees would encourage Sony owners to sample the other side on a whim. And if they like what they see, increasingly spend within the ecosystem.

This is how you turn heads MS. Nothing else will work.
Mehhh idk man if those heavy hitter games aren't there I still won't budge but hey thts me. It'll be interesting to see. Even when gamepass was dirt cheap i tried it once but exclusives are what I mainly game most and thts why gameoass didnt keep me but their exclusives don't attract me.

It would be a good proposition though.
 

onQ123

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PS5 should have the advantage in Pixel fill rate , Triangle rendering , Local cache bandwidth , Storage / I/O bandwidth , I/O processor with onboard SRAM , Memory management , Audio co-processor , USB C connection , A single platform for developers to focus on , VR , HD Stereo Camera & extra controller stuff.

Xbox Series X should have the advantage in Compute , Memory bandwidth , CPU , Texturing (some cases but not all) , Backwards compatibility with all Xbox games besides Kinect games , Library of games that will scale across different devices for years to come with no need of re-buying the software, Gamepass .
 
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Shmunter

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Mehhh idk man if those heavy hitter games aren't there I still won't budge but hey thts me. It'll be interesting to see. Even when gamepass was dirt cheap i tried it once but exclusives are what I mainly game most and thts why gameoass didnt keep me but their exclusives don't attract me.

It would be a good proposition though.
Fair call, free online is one thing...why bother is the other.
 

Nickolaidas

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They will drop XLG for sure
MS: Phil, your gamepass strategy has resulted in lesser profits. How are you going to fix this?
Spencer: I am going to make XBox Live free!
MS: ... but that will lessen our profits even more.
Spencer: Well yeah, but ... think of the songs and praise the fans will do in my honor!!
MS: ... (over their shoulder) is it too late to bring Don Matrick back?
 

Shmunter

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OH Lord, has this guy got an eye of a Horus? I seriously don't see any difference between Cinematic vs gameplay.
Even so, ps5 aims to blur the lines between cinematic quality and gameplay assets with their memory architecture. Sure a character that takes up 5% of the screen need not to be the same model quality as in a cutscene. You save on rendering and you can’t see it when small.

But PS5 will allow the cinematic quality assets to be brought in at any time. For example if the camera zooms in on the character during gameplay for e.g a takedown or dialogue moment, or whatever, the top quality asset can be brought in. Gameplay vs cutscene gfx will no longer be distinguished, all real-time, all transparent.

Indeed playing Last Of Us 2 ND is already doing it on the ps4 with mind blowing results, I have no idea how they achieved it on 2013 hardware - it’s bonkers. But this will get better, and more accessible to more devs, and will be the standard benchmark for true next gen games.

Indeed it has been speculated by Bo and others that the Geometry Engine can create geometry LOD on the fly. One super detailed model only gets shipped with the game, it then gets automatically down scaled based on dev priorities, e.g the further it is from the camera. I have to say, if this is accurate - this would be a feature like no other, a game changer.
 
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SlimySnake

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Can you imagine if the DF thing turns out to be the opposite? Not saying it will, but if it did.
i think it might be possible in next gen games, but for cross gen stuff, i think MS will win every face/off. Devs simply wont bother learning the ins and outs of the PS5 for these quick and dirty ports and just rely on the GPU to do all the heavy lifting.

AC Valhalla looks to be a pretty direct port so likely native 4k 30 fps locked on both consoles, but watch dogs will be pushing reflections and MS will always have an edge there. we still havent seen CoD yet, but i suspect native 4k and 60 fps should be doable on both consoles unless they have some kind of fancy ray tracing going on.
 
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husomc

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Wait wait wait so this game came out in freaking 2006 on Fucking Microsoft Store? And then FINALLY released on Steam in 2014? And now there is a new version just coming out? Why??
after Sep 11, Microsoft made flight simulator disappear for a while after they found out that the terrorists used fight simulator to prep for their attack
 

ToadMan

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Wait for all games?

:pie_hushed:

I find that really hard to believe since they have many subscribed to Gold at the moment. Dropping gold for multiplayer would be shocking.

For the current popularity Xbox has, its panic stations for them.

I think MS will cut price on everything they can, hope people will set aside the lack of XGS games, and pick up an Xbox as a generic game system.

It’s the final card MS has to play - cut prices, give away services.

They’ll have to go super cheap on the console, super cheap on gamepass and ditch the live MP requirement (in fact just roll live into gamepass - which is what they’ll do for existing live subscribers I guess).

Let’s see how far Sony will go to respond to that. They’re in a stronger position so I guess they don’t need to cut as deep but it might unsettle them enough to look at pricing and benefits of PS Plus. I think Sony May take the wait and see post launch approach though rather than try to match MS now.
 
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Snowdonhoffen

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Indeed it has been speculated by Bo and others that the Geometry Engine can create geometry LOD on the fly. One super detailed model only gets shipped with the game, it then gets automatically down scaled based on dev priorities, e.g the further it is from the camera. I have to say, if this is accurate - this would be a feature like no other, a game changer.
Doing that would be awesome, the only time that I've clearly noticed the change between a cinematic model and a gameplay model was in Jedi Fallen Order. Hope they do a next gen upgrade for this game and replace the gameplay models with the cinematic ones.



 
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kyliethicc

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The funny thing about Xbox Live Gold is that Microsoft just doubled the price and no one seems to notice. You used to be able to buy a year of it for $60, now you can’t. Monthly only, which is $10/month, so $120 a year.

Seems clear what they want to do is push people to Game Pass Ultimate. That’s $15/month. So if basic Game Pass is $10 and Live is only $5, then Ultimate doesn’t save you any. But if Live is $10 and Game Pass is $10, the Game Pass Ultimate will save you $5/month. They raised the price of Live to make Game Pass Ultimate look like a better deal.

If Microsoft or Sony were to drop charging for multiplayer, they’d keep the services and just add new perks to try to get people to subscribe. Like create your own private server, or just focus the service around free games and game discounts etc. No way they’d give up 90 million subscribers, it’s too much revenue to just throw away.

Edit. Also just realized PS Plus and PS Now are $60/year each. So Xbox Live and Game Pass are now each TWICE as expensive. Doesn’t seem like a great deal, but everyone won’t stop saying Game Pass is a great deal. PS Now has plenty of great games, but for half the price. And now PS Plus is half the price of Live Gold, and has great free games like Fall Guys this month. Just interesting how Sony delivers better value but gets ignored.
 
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iamvin22

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On a slightly different note, Peter Moore is leaving Liverpool FC after a very successful spell and going back to the US. I wonder if he's going back to gaming? Any possibility of going back to MS or EA?

he frequents a local pub where I live here in the states.
 
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ToadMan

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“[Xsex is] The most consistently powerful console” as Phil S put it. It’s a curious choice of wording at that point given the marketing message prior to July 23.

Analysing that phrase, it implies “Inconsistently, [the Xsex is] not the most powerful console”.

But that doesn’t seem to fit with the specs MS/Sony have produced. So why use those subtle word games at this stage?

Probably doesn’t mean anything - just seemed like weird phrasing at the time.
 
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Vae_Victis

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Doing that would be awesome, the only time that I've clearly noticed the change between a cinematic model and a gameplay model was in Jedi Fallen Order. Hope they do a next gen upgrade for this game and replace the gameplay models with the cinematic ones.



On PS4 and Xbox One, The Witcher 3 had a pretty drastic difference in texture and lighting quality (EDIT: for clarity, I mean between cinematic and gameplay on the same console, not between one and the other console):




Same exact room, during and immediately after a dialogue.
 
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Aug 28, 2019
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“[Xsex is] The most consistently powerful console” as Phil S put it. It’s a curious choice of wording at that point given the marketing message prior to July 23.

Analysing that phrase, it implies “Inconsistently, [the Xsex is] not the most powerful console”.

But that doesn’t seem to fit with the specs MS/Sony have produced. So why use those subtle word games at this stage?

Probably doesn’t mean anything - just seemed like weird phrasing at the time.

I assume everything is calculated and they've learned things about the PS5 that made them realize they couldn't keep saying that for much longer.
 

Rea

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To be honest, that's some very respectful CV, but doesn't mean that you don't have wrong speculations on things, and with such expertise you should be more than capable of acknowledging that HFW, for example, had some flaws suggesting it running in real-time.

Hellblade 2 wasn't 100% 4K though, and 100% prerendered at 24fps on anonymous hardware. Forza Motorsports was prerendered as well at 24fps, same goes to State of Decay 3. The rest are the same as well.

If we're gonna use those as real time, then we should count this one (any sane person would know it's not, even Sony put a clear disclaimer):



And this

Respect Sony for putting disclaimer that was not actual gameplay, not to confuse the audience. Unlike Ubisoft video there is no disclaimer.
 

Vae_Victis

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I'm not doubting this but would it really be hard to take the same screen? You know the same conversation at the same angle?
There is no "same angle", once the conversation ends you see what is in the second picture.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote, this is not a console comparison. Both pictures are from the PS4 version.
 
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Deleted member 775630

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I understand that it’s easy and positive to see things so hopefully, but it’s important to remember these are companies. Their “Pro consumer” marketing is just that. They are trying to increase revenue, not crash it.

Imagine the conditions it would take to push them to drop Gold entirely? How long does it now take them to recoup that revenue?

Crazy things happen. What gives me pause is that they can still simply drop Gold requirement for online in Gamepass or for F2P and get faux praise. Another thing is that at the Xbox event CrossFire X had a disclaimer for Gold requirement, so it would seem like a recent decision. And if it’s a recent decision, what scary data are they reading about next gen?
Yeah there's a strategy behind it to get even more revenue and money out of us. But that doesn't mean that it's not a good deal of course.

In case of Crossfire, pretty sure they are just keeping up appearances or need to have a back up plan if they don't drop XBL Gold.

So on one hand I completely agree that getting rid of Xbox gold seems in line with what they've been doing and with how they want to market themselves.

But on the other hand, Gamepass is straight up not profitable right now. And I'm not going to pretend I know exactly how long it will be until it will be, but historically with other streaming services, it takes awhile. I just find it hard to believe that such a high gross profit % revenue stream would be abandoned before the other service (game pass) is producing profits.

But Jeff seems pretty convinced and I believe they are going to drop it. I guess I'm just struggling to see how this strategy is going to be yielding actual high profits to the company rather than just revenue. Maybe Microsoft just doesn't care.
Spit balling here but I believe that they think gaming will change in the next decade. If they don't deliver the subscription service someone else will. Which means they'll lose even more than they would now. So the idea is to get as much traction as possible now because they'll lose the software sales eventually, the one thing that really makes the money for these companies.
 
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ToadMan

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I assume everything is calculated and they've learned things about the PS5 that made them realize they couldn't keep saying that for much longer.

Hmmmm I don’t know about that. I mean maybe, but to me that’s a reach unless/until we hear some specifics from MS or Sony about that.

I wondered if this is positioning to do with Lockhart.

In order to not sell Lockhart short they don’t want to imply the Xsex kills it in every way, so position it at the same power as Xsex, but Lockhart isn’t able to achieve the same level of “consistent” performance. Xsex game at 4k60, Lockhart variable up to 4k60. Not as consistent.

Bearing in mind the Lockhart is rumoured to be same everything except GPU - maybe they feel consistency of power is nicer way to put it rather than just positioning Lockhart as the cheapo/weako console relative to Xsex.
 
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Hmmmm I don’t know about that. I mean maybe, but to me that’s a reach unless/until we hear some specifics from MS or Sony about that.

I wondered if this is positioning to do with Lockhart.

In order to not sell Lockhart short they don’t want to imply the Xsex kills it in every way, so position it at the same power as Xsex, but Lockhart isn’t able to achieve the same level of “consistent” performance. Xsex game at 4k60, Lockhart variable up to 4k60. Not as consistent.

Bearing in mind the Lockhart is rumoured to be same everything except GPU - maybe they feel consistency of power is nicer way to put it rather than just positioning Lockhart as the cheapo/weako console relative to Xsex.

Yeah this explanation also rings true but I'd expect them to know things about PS5 we don't considering there are dev teams working on games for both that probably let things slip to MSoft employees and vice versa.
 
Jun 2, 2020
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“[Xsex is] The most consistently powerful console” as Phil S put it. It’s a curious choice of wording at that point given the marketing message prior to July 23.

Analysing that phrase, it implies “Inconsistently, [the Xsex is] not the most powerful console”.

But that doesn’t seem to fit with the specs MS/Sony have produced. So why use those subtle word games at this stage?

Probably doesn’t mean anything - just seemed like weird phrasing at the time.
They’re taking a jab at Sony, the whole 9TF FUD. Nothing to see there.
 
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