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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

hemo memo

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Oh god .. the stupidity in this article is just beyond my understanding.

It is Kotaku.
 
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Hashi

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Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.
From with country you are?
 

IllegalLemon

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No, the improvement in Zen3 is not the cache itself but how it is arranged.

In Zen2 you have these units called CCXs with 4 cores and, in the case of the desktop versions, 16MB of L3. This allows a lot of flexibility as AMD can create different CPUs just by adding or removing CCXs. However, there is an issue when you go over one CCX, for example, when you want to build an 8 core CPU and need two CCXs. If a core in the CCX1 needs to access the L3 cache of the CCX2 it takes a latency penalty, as it doesn't have direct access to it, it needs to go to chips central I/O , then access the cache on the other CCX.

So in Zen2, if you cores are accessing the L3 cache of the CCX they are part of, the latency is OK, if not, then the latency massively spikes. Of course, the more CCXs the worse.

Zen3 fixes this by increasing the ammount of cores per CCX and the L3 cache size. In Zen3 each CCX has 8 cores and 32MB of L3 cache.

So if PS5 has this, it has Zen2 core but Zen3 cache arrangement but I sincerely doubt it.
Actually Zen and Zen+ had 4 cores ler cluster which is why the top threadripper released on Zen+ had 32 cores. Amd limits these clusters to 8 maximum as putting more more would simply made the cpu way too large. Zen2 transcended that limitation, introducing clusters with a maximum of 8 cores each, now they could fit 16 cores in a cpu using 2 clusters of 8 cores each instead of the 4 clusters of 4 cores each the 1950x had 2 gens before and the overall footprint of the cpu was reduced in size as well, making the cpu smaller while packing the same amount of cores as the 1950x into the 3950x with each core being physically larger as well. This made ultra powerful , mega-tasking powerhouses such as the 3990x possible as 8 clusters could then be used and with 8 cores each, this gave a combined total of an astonishing 64 cores. Zen3 Unified the L3 caches to improve latency as it now is shared across clusters and cores improving ipc in the process, the new 7EUV process used further improves efficiency allowing for significantly higher clocks compared to the 7DUV based Zen2 before it and rumor has it Amd has been hard at work trying to create smt tech that allows for 4 threads per core instead of the usual two threads per core. When we'll see this in a consumer cpu, time will tell.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
nah. I don't see it. Maybe slim with more ssd space. But Pro is unlikely. CPU is top of the line. Not much of an upgrade can be done there... maybe some gpu

Well, you went from disagreeing to agreeing ;). It's 72CU and CPU probably Zen3 at 3nm with PS5 Slim with a boost to like 2.5GHz based on RDNA3/4.
 
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Lysandros

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Zen 2 with 8MB L3 unified cache is a must... basically is what is making PS5 CPU better for high framerate than Series X CPU even with 100Mhz disadvantage.
Yes, if true a unified L3 cache would have much higher impact on instruction per clock than a mere 2-3% higher frequency. If i remember correctly AMD claimed up to 20% IPC increase from this feature for Zen 3.
 

Rudius

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yep, i am not really interested in multiplats at all, they are just the standard cannon folder rubbish that gets chucked about. I am looking at those defining sony exclusives, thats what the majority of people really buy the machine for, those God of wars, those uncharted, those horizons, those games are going to blow everything else away.

Microsoft just can not compete, their whole ethos is wrong. and not that the multi-plat barrier has crumbled what is left. The studios they bought. I expect the fast majority of them to end up on ps5. Imagine the install base is 7 years time 200 million vs 50 million if they are lucky. that's just to much money and too many sales not to cash in to.
200 million PS5s sounds very unrealistic at first, but if they somehow manage to do slim versions that are really cheap and push them to developing markets, perhaps it's doable
:pie_thinking:
 

Bo_Hazem

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I have the 3D pulse and it’s great the audio is so clear and the 3D audio in DS is fantastic

Yeah it's very clean with impressive/finely tuned bass and amazing locality. Demon's Souls is the best tempest showcase so far. Sound quality and performance remains the same wireless or shut down and using it wired. According to IGN that SteelSeries Arctis 7P is on par with Pulse 3D. Both work on PC and even the switch.
 

Grinchy

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a cave outside of Whoville.
Seems like low volume problem is a trend with wireless headsets, but Pulse 3D is perfectly loud at 100% or sometimes have to push it to 90%.
Man, I keep it at the default 50% and sometimes the explosions and gunfire in COD blast my eardrums off :messenger_tears_of_joy:


Oh and something cool about the audio in Demon's Souls is when you're in the Nexus and you are walking away from someone and they're doing their "I wasn't done talking yet" lines. You can actually hear their voice becoming distant in the direction you're leaving and it sounds so good!

I'm no major audiophile or anything, but while I don't think the audio quality itself is as good as a nice pair of Sennheisers or something, for $100, these do a pretty good job. The 3D audio effect works quite nicely and these are early days.
 
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Razvedka

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Oct 20, 2018
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Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.

They offered an entire Masters program centered around Java? That's incredible.
 
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Razvedka

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Btw I will try to ignore the fact HTML is having the same treatment in this discussion as a language like C ++ has

Tbh, CSS3 and HTML5 aren't even entered into my calculus when it comes to technical skillsets, but that's largely because as a web app guy it's simply "assumed" you understand and excel at it. The reality is most pure programmers I know or who have worked with, talented guys, have lost their shit at CSS3 because "it doesn't make any sense".

So if there's a non-web guy who has tackled these and actually is good with them then I'm not going to thumb my nose at that guy. He sat his ass down and figured it out.
 
Sep 18, 2019
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Python is shit. I know that it triggers a lot of people, but when I see banks asking Python competencies for their traders, I feel vindicated. I did think it was buzz-bloatware 15 years ago, I do think it now. And my best friend makes a living with python, mind you :D
Do you think you really like your bestfriend? Maybe you are projecting. :messenger_winking:
 
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Razvedka

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Python is shit. I know that it triggers a lot of people, but when I see banks asking Python competencies for their traders, I feel vindicated. I did think it was buzz-bloatware 15 years ago, I do think it now. And my best friend makes a living with python, mind you :D

I haven't been super impressed with Python. When I was doing my OSCP (don't hold your breath, I failed it. Will be retaking later this/next year) alot of it was (of course) in Python and to me it always felt like an inferior Node.js, which of course isn't a valid assessment given the age disparity between the two languages. But for most things Node.js is simply better vs Python, there's only a few areas I can think of where the latter has a serious edge over the former.

By in large I think it comes down to legacy systems and knowledge
 

inflation

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Nov 2, 2020
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I haven't been super impressed with Python. When I was doing my OSCP (don't hold your breath, I failed it. Will be retaking later this/next year) alot of it was (of course) in Python and to me it always felt like an inferior Node.js, which of course isn't a valid assessment given the age disparity between the two languages. But for most things Node.js is simply better vs Python, there's only a few areas I can think of where the latter has a serious edge over the former.

By in large I think it comes down to legacy systems and knowledge
The best part of Python is its ecosystem. During the years of maturing, you can find all kinds of packages in nearly every area, whether are written in Python or not. So it makes Python the perfect glue language to do something quick and dirty.

I love about it when scripting, because it’s battery-included, so I don’t need to download 20 misc packages from npm. People outside of engineering like science folks also love it, because of the fantastic community built around it, as an alternative to Matlab.
 
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Riky

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Series X doesn't use split ram as in the way say PS3 did, Devs see it as one pool this has been confirmed several times, there is no evidence from anyone that any game so far uses more than 10gb of Vram, link if you can find one. Even the slower portion of ram is faster than the Xbox One X ram which ran games at 4k.

That 10gb also has a massive bandwidth advantage over PS5 on top.
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Series X doesn't use split ram as in the way say PS3 did,

Yes, in some ways it's better, but in some other significant ways (i.e. common bus, cannot access both pools simultaneously) it's meaningfully worse.

Devs see it as one pool this has been confirmed several times,

Correction. Devs see it a one contiguous address space. Not the same thing. That's not special or unique. That's how all unified memory architecture systems work.

The problem is that anytime the GPU needs to read data in the slower pool, they're limited to a significantly smaller bandwidth than even the PS5.

10GB is not a lot and will become even more limiting as the gen progresses. It's RAM not a software managed cache. So devs need to ensure all performance-critical data lies in the fast pool. Not all devs are created equal and on projects where devs are pushing against tight project deadlines with the need to target a stupid number of platforms, the spilt memory setup on XSX and XSS is just another headache devs don't really need or want to have to optimize for.

there is no evidence from anyone that any game so far uses more than 10gb of Vram, link if you can find one. Even the slower portion of ram is faster than the Xbox One X ram which ran games at 4k.

That 10gb also has a massive bandwidth advantage over PS5 on top.

This is completely clueless. Every game released ever uses the full amount of RAM available for every system games will run on. It would be obtuse to have a game running on a system and not be filling the RAM completely with every bit of requisite data you possibly need. Otherwise you're simply not making effective use of the hardware resources provided. This is just fucking common sense.

The issue with XSX's split memory setup is that any data residing in the 6GB slow pool needs to be buffer data and not the stuff your GPU needs to hit often, otherwise you'll be seeing GPU stalls galore. This is something devs need to carefully manage, unlike on PS5.
 

LucidFlux

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Wow so much new and exclusive information packed into a nearly 30 min video. I know some of you already mentioned there was nothing new of interest here but I wanted to break this down to show you how convoluted this guys videos are...


Mentions it will take time to fully utilize a feature:
3

Custom RDNA2/RDNA2 Mentions:
11

Geometry Engine mentions:
12

Cache scrubbers:
5

Number of times Road to PS5/Cerny was mentioned:
9

API/DK/GDK mentions:
10

Times he mentioned his previous leaks (and then repeated them):
10


Times PS5 was compared to Xbox/PC even though he goes out of his way at the end to mention "this is not an xbox has this and xbox doesn't have that video":
19 -LOL


Potentially new information section:

8MB of unified L3 cache in CPU: previously mentioned, not actually new and still not confirmed by Sony but highly suspected.

CPU reserves for system/OS: 1 dedicated core, "generally" - Pretty obvious guess, the qualifier "generally" he uses here doesn't shout confidence in this number and also leaves room for other possibilities.

Geometry Engine: Regurgitates all known information in a shiny new package, but the huge nugget he dropped here is when the GE can cull geometry and according to him it's "super duper" early. Then goes on to obviously state how Nanite was leveraging the GE to "control geometry" - another huge revelation. It actually controls geometry. Woah!

Cache Scrubbers: Again repeats Cerny then says he was told this was a "pretty large" speed up of GPU - So specific...

Tempest Engine: Cites Cerny again, mentioning Tempest can be used for other game calculations such as physics then mentions that according to a developer working on 2D game their audio used ~20% of tempest engine. Doesn't tell us a whole lot but may actually be the only new piece of information here besides the cpu reserves.

GPU Frequency: PS5 always seems to stay at peak frequency, 95% of the time according to "developers". If it dips it's for less than a single frame.

So he has access to a developer who is running GPU profiler tools on the PS5 to check on clock frequency throughout a frame but can't get any more information about GPU Cache sizes, structure, how often the cache scrubbers purge data or increase performance other than it being a "pretty large" speed up of the GPU then I just don't buy it.



TLDR Conclusion

I finally know who RGT's source is and it's been right in front of us this whole time. It's Mark Cerny. He not so subtly hinted this by name dropping him and his Road to PS5 bible nearly 20 times in just this video. All of his information can be gleamed from Cerny's talk, sprinkled with other publicly known information from AMD as well as obvious conclusions that can be drawn from the known information all wrapped up nicely with some generalized qualifiers just in case some numbers miss the mark.

I'm sorry but when you feel the need to qualify yourself by mentioning 10 of your previous leaks in a single video it just means you don't have anything of substance here, otherwise you'd let the new information stand on its own.

Does anyone know if Cerny has a YT channel or podcast? I'd rather just listen to the source.
 

Razvedka

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The best part of Python is its ecosystem. During the years of maturing, you can find all kinds of packages in nearly every area, whether are written in Python or not. So it makes Python the perfect glue language to do something quick and dirty.

I love about it when scripting, because it’s battery-included, so I don’t need to download 20 misc packages from npm. People outside of engineering like science folks also love it, because of the fantastic community built around it, as an alternative to Matlab.

Why would you need to download anything from NPM necessarily? Node.js is the full V8 JS engine + its built in goodies that make Node, Node. I've written entire programs in it without downloading stuff from NPM. Perhaps I'm showing my youth here by asking such a question lol.

And I agree, Python has strong legacy support with most stuff out there. The other side of the coin though is that NPM is viewed as 'best in breed' for package management and iirc there are more available packages for Node.js then any other language currently. So its a huge ecosystem.

@OnTopic

I'd be interested in seeing figures for cache scrubber impact on GPU performance, but given PS5 is so customized I guess that would be a hard thing to do. 'Generic GPU with cache scrubbers vs Generic GPU without' sort of thing.
 
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DonkeyKong

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Series X doesn't use split ram as in the way say PS3 did, Devs see it as one pool this has been confirmed several times, there is no evidence from anyone that any game so far uses more than 10gb of Vram, link if you can find one. Even the slower portion of ram is faster than the Xbox One X ram which ran games at 4k.

That 10gb also has a massive bandwidth advantage over PS5 on top.

This split ram thing is a bit confusing, 10Gb runs at 560GB/S and 6Gb runs at 336GB/s, only the GPU sees the faster ram, right? so does the GPU always access the higher speed ram or does the whole speed drop to 336GB/s when the slower ram pool is also being accessed? Who knows?
 
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Mahavastu

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This split ram thing is a bit confusing, 10Gb runs at 560GB/S and 6Gb runs at 336GB/s, only the GPU sees the faster ram, right? so does the GPU always access the higher speed ram or does the whole speed drop to 336GB/s when the slower ram pool is also being accessed? Who knows?
No, the memory is unified and BOTH, the CPU and the GPU are able to access the full 16GB of the memory, no matter if fast or slow.

The thing is, that the GPU needs higher bandwith than the CPU (on PC the CPU ram is way slower than on consoles), therefore as a dev you will try to keep the GPU specific stuff in the fast area and the mostly CPU stuff in the slower part. Stuff which both access (there are reasons why you want to have unified memory) you try to keep in the fast area as well.
The RAM is using the same lanes in the computer, so you access either the slow part or the fast part of the memory, not both at once. You can read this as accesses to the slow memory slows down access to memory overall...
 
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EliteClarity

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Nov 14, 2013
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If anyone from Sony is Watching, PLEASE can we mute game audio easier so I can Listen to Spotify while gaming. I Current can see no way to do it, apart from go to options and individually turn down/off each audio setting on a per game basis, and fuck me if I want the game audio, I have to do the same and turn it all back up again.

Yes, Yes, First world problems, but it it annoys me endlessly.
 
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Mar 7, 2017
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This split ram thing is a bit confusing, 10Gb runs at 560GB/S and 6Gb runs at 336GB/s, only the GPU sees the faster ram, right? so does the GPU always access the higher speed ram or does the whole speed drop to 336GB/s when the slower ram pool is also being accessed? Who knows?

The two virtual "pools" of memory exist on 10x physical GDDR6 memory chips, which are a mix of 1 and 2GB densities.

The "fast pool", comprises the 4x 1GB GDDR6 chips together with the first 1GB of the 6x 2GB density chips.

The "slow pool" comprises the second 1GB on the 6x 2GB density chips.

Think of the 2GB chips as being partitioned in software, which the first GB accessible in the "fast pool" and the second GB accessible in the "slow pool".

The number of chips is what defines the memory bus width and thus bandwidth, with each chip having 32x pins with 1bit per pin.

So the fast pool has an interface width of = 10 chips x 32 pins per chip x 1 bit per pin = 320bit
Likewise the slow pool width is = 6 chips x 32 pins per chip x 1 bit per pin = 192bit

With 14Gbit/s GDDR6 chips that gives the bw figures of 560 GBytes/s and 336GB/s respectively for the two pools.

As you can tell, both pools are accessed physically through the same pins on each 2GB chip, i.e. a common memory bus, so both pools cannot be accessed at the same time.

So when accessing the second 6GB on the 2GB density chips, i.e. the slow pool, you're doing so though a 192bit interface, thus your bw is limited to 336GB/s only.

I'm pretty sure the GPU can access both memory pools, as otherwise that would be an oversight in design of the highest order. Effectively making the system a non-unified memory architecture with only 10GB of VRAM (putting it at a significant disadvantage to the competition). I'm pretty confident this is not the case.

Both the CPU and GPU can access both pools, but you really want your GPU reading primarily from the fast pool. Otherwise your performance will be tanking hard.
 

Insane Metal

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Is nobody going to get that PS5 APU die shot? What the fuck? Last gen we got that before launch IIRC or right after both consoles released.

We need to know if the PS5 has unified cache in its CPU. If that's indeed the case like RGT is saying it's a huge benefit for PS5.
 
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The two virtual "pools" of memory exist on 10x physical GDDR6 memory chips, which are a mix of 1 and 2GB densities.

The "fast pool", comprises the 4x 1GB GDDR6 chips together with the first 1GB of the 6x 2GB density chips.

The "slow pool" comprises the second 1GB on the 6x 2GB density chips.

Think of the 2GB chips as being partitioned in software, which the first GB accessible in the "fast pool" and the second GB accessible in the "slow pool".

The number of chips is what defines the memory bus width and thus bandwidth, with each chip having 32x pins with 1bit per pin.

So the fast pool has an interface width of = 10 chips x 32 pins per chip x 1 bit per pin = 320bit
Likewise the slow pool width is = 6 chips x 32 pins per chip x 1 bit per pin = 192bit

With 14Gbit/s GDDR6 chips that gives the bw figures of 560 GBytes/s and 336GB/s respectively for the two pools.

As you can tell, both pools are accessed physically through the same pins on each 2GB chip, i.e. a common memory bus, so both pools cannot be accessed at the same time.

So when accessing the second 6GB on the 2GB density chips, i.e. the slow pool, you're doing so though a 192bit interface, thus your bw is limited to 336GB/s only.

I'm pretty sure the GPU can access both memory pools, as otherwise that would be an oversight in design of the highest order. Effectively making the system a non-unified memory architecture with only 10GB of VRAM (putting it at a significant disadvantage to the competition). I'm pretty confident this is not the case.

Both the CPU and GPU can access both pools, but you really want your GPU reading primarily from the fast pool. Otherwise your performance will be tanking hard.

What I'm curious about is when the GPU needs more than 10GBs what advantage will the PS5 have in multiplats?
 

Metroiddarks

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Tbh, CSS3 and HTML5 aren't even entered into my calculus when it comes to technical skillsets, but that's largely because as a web app guy it's simply "assumed" you understand and excel at it. The reality is most pure programmers I know or who have worked with, talented guys, have lost their shit at CSS3 because "it doesn't make any sense".

So if there's a non-web guy who has tackled these and actually is good with them then I'm not going to thumb my nose at that guy. He sat his ass down and figured it out.
Don't get me wrong I respect a person who can use things like CSS in a correct way, the fact is not a programing language doesn't mean their work is less important.
 
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Garani

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Do you think you really like your bestfriend? Maybe you are projecting. :messenger_winking:

He saw me through a tough time in my life, and was my Bestman as well. Nobody is perfect :D

By in large I think it comes down to legacy systems and knowledge

Python is majorly loved in Physics and Math environments. Today's trading is very much based on physics being applied to the stock market (I know, it sucks, but that's what it is nowadays) so this is why trader's roles include Python. For the very same reason it has been injected into adaptive security principles. Problem is that adaptive security isn't about getting a log and doing something with it (you can use Perl, and it's a much stronger string manipulator). Adaptive security is a wider arena that encompass proper asset management (CMDB), configuration base lines, impact analysis, information pathways validation and intelligence feed. Put all together and THEN you apply it to your first line's security operations KABOOM! You have adaptive security.

Problem is that it's fucking expesive (resource wise) and you gotta have management that really buys into it. Once they get word that you are asking for a 20 to 30 people team, to start with, for a project that will start seeing the light of day not before 2 years have passed, everyone disappears.