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[IntentionalPun]

You are right about physics, but I thought that didn't come until after they made their PhysX cards and API. Once they did away with them, they did CUDA.

GPGPU can also process 3D audio and the like with the design AMD/PS4 customized if I remember correctly. CUDA can now as well I believe. So yes, both APIs offer similar goals.

Search in this thread and Beyond3D with the Cell comparisons to certain GPGPU tasks on the PS4. I will try and find them later as well.

Oh you are right; CUDA replaced dedicated PhysX stuff.. but my point still stands, nVidia has been offloading CPU tasks beyond rendering for a long ass time.. about 15 years really. As well as having "programmable" GPUs in general.

edit: And I've done a bunch of searching, and everything I can find beyond the generic statements made here that "the cell paved the way for PS4" is.. sort of the opposite lol

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sony Patents DualSense Haptic Events For Pre-Recorded Videos Or Streams

The new DualSense controller features an improved form of haptic feedback technology which allows PlayStation 5 players to physically feel sensations

segmentnext.com

"According to a published patent from last week, haptic feedback events can be encoded in an audio-video stream so that they are triggered for spectators on demand. The filing notes that the streams can be pre-recorded but presumably, the same patented technology can cover live streams as well. Hence, players watching online footage of a game while holding a DualSense controller for example can experience haptic feedback events on cue."

Not something I would use but it does sound neat. Will definitely try this out if they do use it.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Not something I would use but it does sound neat. Will definitely try this out if they do use it.

Imagine the porn streaming possibilities.

 

[3liteDragon]

Mesh shaders

Look at the performance increase you get after turning it on, it's culling meshlets hidden from the camera’s view. I’m telling y’all, the custom Primitive Shaders feature from the GE on PS5 is gonna be the highlight feature of this generation for the console.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Oh you are right; CUDA replaced dedicated PhysX stuff.. but my point still stands, nVidia has been offloading CPU tasks beyond rendering for a long ass time.. about 15 years really. As well as having "programmable" GPUs in general.

edit: And I've done a bunch of searching, and everything I can find beyond the generic statements made here that "the cell paved the way for PS4" is.. sort of the opposite lol

Not paved the way for the PS4, made it familiar on devs going into the PS4 for certain CPU to GPU (GPGPU) tasks since they were already familiar with similar methods they needed to use with the Cell in conjunction with the nVidia GPU part in the PS3.

At least that's how I understood it from many insane and in depth talks in this community, and even early on in this very thread.

 

[kyliethicc]

Not something I would use but it does sound neat. Will definitely try this out if they do use it.

I imagine it will be used for their gaming showcase streams.

To show off PS5 gameplay, we can see and hear the game, but we can't yet feel the game.

Imagine if by holding a DualSense you could feel the Leviathan Axe fly back into Kratos' hand while watching the next God of War gameplay reveal during their next big showcase stream.

It makes perfect sense for Sony to want to add haptics to the A/V experience of showing off PS5 games via streams and videos.

 

[Lysandros]

Look at the performance increase you get after turning it on, it's culling meshlets hidden from the camera’s view. I’m telling y’all, the Primitive Shaders feature from the GE on PS5 is gonna be the highlight feature of this generation for the console.

Yes, i am eager to see how PS5's comparatively 20% more powerful GE (further customized to be fully programmable) will perform in this area.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I imagine it will be used for their gaming showcase streams.

To show off PS5 gameplay, we can see and hear the game, but we can't yet feel the game.

Imagine if by holding a DualSense you could feel the Leviathan Axe fly back into Kratos' hand while watching the next God of War gameplay reveal during their next big showcase stream.

It makes perfect sense for Sony to want to add haptics to the A/V experience of showing off PS5 games via streams and videos.

Now that's a great reason to watch a PlayStation presentation through a PS5. Never thought of that.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Look at the performance increase you get after turning it on, it's culling meshlets hidden from the camera’s view. I’m telling y’all, the custom Primitive Shaders feature from the GE on PS5 is gonna be the highlight feature of this generation for the console.

Don't primitive shaders cull even earlier in the pipeline? I'm trying to determine if those results would apply to them or be better or worse with primitive shaders.

 

[assurdum]

Man see so many try to explain some tech advantage of the ps5 to Ricky it's really disarming. You know him the more intelligent reply about the ps5 it's a lol gif; why waste the time?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Man see so many try to explain some tech advantage of the ps5 to Ricky it's really disarming. You know him the more intelligent reply about the ps5 it's a lol gif; why waste the time?

I've been hitting on a dude?

I thought it was a she due to the mods saying that she has a clitoris (pleasure pearl).

 

[3liteDragon]

Don't primitive shaders cull even earlier in the pipeline? I'm trying to determine if those results would apply to them or be better or worse with primitive shaders.

RDNA 1's primitive shaders are technically from what I understand a bit inferior compared to the DX12U API's implementation of it for RDNA 2, PS5's is custom and more advanced and more controllable than RDNA 1's version. RGT even mentioned once quoting a developer who has access to a devkit, who said that the primitive shaders on PS5 which is hardware-accelerated by the GE, culls faster than DX12U on RDNA 2 and is more programmable by the developers.

(timestamped, 25:33 - 27:51)

 

[assurdum]

RDNA 1's primitive shaders are technically from what I understand a bit inferior compared to the DX12 API's implementation of it on RDNA 2, PS5's is custom and more advanced and more controllable than RDNA 1's version. RGT even mentioned once quoting a developer who has access to a devkit, who said that the primitive shaders on PS5 which is hardware-accelerated by the GE, culls faster than DX12 on RDNA 2 and is more programmable by the developers.

Well if the tech explanation of Cerny in Road to the ps5 has a logic (the triangles replaceable by the shaders), the primitive shader should be basically mesh shaders?

 

[ethomaz]

Simples terms.

PS5 is based in RDNA 2... it doesn't has the same Primitive Units than RDNA 1... it has the same Primitive Units than RDNA 2.
In a theoretical test if you get and put the APU on PC it will run with RDNA 2 drivers and DX12U can use Mesh Shaders in the APU.

People are entering in the API feature wars lol
Does PS5 can do Mesh Shaders like DX12U? I don't know... need to ask Sony how and if they implemented something like that.
Does PS5 hardware can Mesh Shaders? Yeap... it is a RDNA 2 hardware after all.

API feature can have the implementation the owners of the APU thinks it is better... it can even be called another name... MS are using these names to match the name nVidia choose.

OpenGL and Vulkan can use Mesh Shaders that are implemented by nVidia that is probably different from the MS implementation in DX12 but both are still "Mesh Shaders".

 

[Shelookdlvl18]

These sarcastic posts you make feigning sympathy are Whats pitiful. The I/O being discussed is the biggest difference between the systems. It’s also the one area that hasn’t been utilized in a console until now. If “tools” are still being worked out on the x side, then it’s safe to say I/O is as well. Now, they both utilize it in their architecture, but PS5 has twice the potential and its the biggest discrepancy between these 2 systems.
Neither console has reached its ceiling, but we don’t know how high it is for either because there is no precedent for knowing what the I/O is capable of. Is it already the reason that the systems are neck and neck? Maybe a little, but there’s still room to grow and utilize it further. If the x advantage is evident in hitman 3, the potential advantage of the PS5 I/O is at least equal to that respective to that component. If it is, there’s going to be some angry people in here. I know these early results are a lot to take. We all know. We can read posts and understand tone. The thing that is certain right now, today, is that nobody who purchased an x was expecting this to happen. You were sold on it being the “most powerful console ever” because that’s what they came out and said. They changed that to “most powerful Xbox” for areason. So, if you want to wait for the console you purchased to reach the potential you were promised, that’s great. But as it stand now, they are neck and neck. So you would need a lot of growth on one side and you’d need the PS5 to go backwards in order for the promise made to you to be fulfilled. And that’s not going to happen.

I'm sorry, you don't get to decide what's pitiful and what's not. You're fud spreading regarding Gamepass alone lost you that privilege.

Your observation that we don't know what the ceiling is for these consoles is on point. While speculating how high that ceiling may go, and when that may happen is part of the reason many of us are here. But within that speculation, there's ideas based on logic, and then there are those based on fantasy. The truth is, simply that we don't know the reasons for why one game performs slightly better here, or slightly worse there. We also don't know the untapped potential in either of these consoles yet. Sure everyone here likes to armchair quarterback like they design game hardware, or develop AAA games, but they're not. The people who do that for a living go home at the end of the day, and work on their project car, watch tv, play softball, etc... What they don't do is browse gaming forums discussing the very thing they just spent all day doing.

Your entire post is nothing more than guessing. Is the I/O the biggest difference between these consoles like you said? The realistic evidence so far would suggest that it's anything but. The clear advantage was supposed to be in regards to loading times. There's several months worth of threads here last year to back that claim up. Out of all the comparisons we've seen so far between these consoles the largest differing factor has been that the XBSX routinely loads games faster than the PS5. All that talk ad nauseam about how loading screens were gonna be a thing of the past, the excitement over those Spiderman videos between PS4/PS5, all the hoopla about how those linear segments that game devs use to disguise loading would be gone, and how devs were going to all this freedom. To this point, not only has the PS5 not shown anything close to that promise, but it hasn't even shown it can equal its competitor... Who didn't even bother to place such importance there.

See how easy that was? Anyone can draw whatever conclusions they want at this point in the gen. That spur of the moment claim I made above has more merit and evidence behind it than anything you've posted in months. If you want the ability to discuss what's pitiful... Quit being such a shining example of it.

 

[assurdum]

Simples terms.

PS5 is based in RDNA 2... it doesn't has the same Primitive Units than RDNA 1... it has the same Primitive Units than RDNA 2.
In a theoretical test if you get and put the APU on PC it will run with RDNA 2 drivers and DX12U can use Mesh Shaders in the APU.

People are entering in the API feature wars lol
Does PS5 can do Mesh Shaders like DX12U? I don't know... need to ask Sony how and if they implemented something like that.
Does PS5 hardware can Mesh Shaders? Yeap... it is a RDNA 2 hardware after all.

I mean:
The main goal of the Mesh shader is to increase the flexibility and performance of the geometry pipeline. Mesh shaders subsume most aspects of Vertex and Geometry shaders into one shader stage by processing batches of vertices and primitives before the rasterizer. They are additionally capable of amplifying and culling geometry.
Now I'm not a developers but what it is so different to the GE feature on ps5 explained by Cerny in Road to the ps5?

 

[kyliethicc]

Now that's a great reason to watch a PlayStation presentation through a PS5. Never thought of that.

It will probably also be useful for doing game previews with media people. Here watch this preview footage so we can show you what the game will feel like when you play, as well as what it will look and sound like.

 

[MasterCornholio]

To this point, not only has the PS5 not shown anything close to that promise, but it hasn't even shown it can equal its competitor...

And then we have games that demonstrate extremely fast load times on the PS5. Spiderman Remastered, Spiderman Mike's Morales, Demon Souls and NiOh are the best examples of that in my opinion. Then there's the question of how Ratchet will handle the I/O since it's supposed to be a proof of how it works.

I would agree with you that the PS5s I/O is inferior due to some of the multiplats but then we have examples of when it can be incredibly fast.

I guess in order for the I/O to be of any use the devs have to program for it. And that's something that's probably not done in multiplats but it is with 1st party titles and exclusives.

I guess we have to wait for more games before being certain of the systems I/O capabilities. Does that seem ok to you?

 

[3liteDragon]

I mean:
The main goal of the Mesh shader is to increase the flexibility and performance of the geometry pipeline. Mesh shaders subsume most aspects of Vertex and Geometry shaders into one shader stage by processing batches of vertices and primitives before the rasterizer. They are additionally capable of amplifying and culling geometry.
Now I'm not a developers but what it's different to the GE feature on ps5 explained by Cerny?

Watch the video from my post.

Timestamp: 25:33 - 27:51

 

[ethomaz]

I mean:
The main goal of the Mesh shader is to increase the flexibility and performance of the geometry pipeline. Mesh shaders subsume most aspects of Vertex and Geometry shaders into one shader stage by processing batches of vertices and primitives before the rasterizer. They are additionally capable of amplifying and culling geometry.
Now I'm not a developers but what it's different to the GE feature on ps5 explained by Cerny?

Little to none.... just implementation differences... the goal and results should be similar.

RDNA 1 has a Geometric Engine complex where there is what is called buy AMD Primitive Shader Units... RDNA 2 made these Primitive Shaders more flexible and inline with what nVidia calls Mesh Shaders... so now MS API can make the DX12U Mesh Shader feature work across all the PC GPUs that supports it.

What people is rumoring is the actual RDNA 2's Geometry Engine was enhanced by Sony for PS5... that is hard to believe unless we see some evidences.

 

[assurdum]

Watch the video from my post.

Timestamp: 25:33 - 27:51

In what way the GE uses of shaders for the triangles is inferior to the mesh shaders? The purpose is exactly the same...

 

[IntentionalPun]

Little to none.... just implementation differences... the goal and results should be similar.

RDNA 1 has a Geometric Engine complex where there is what is called buy AMD Primitive Shader Units... RDNA 2 made these Primitive Shaders more flexible and inline with what nVidia calls Mesh Shaders... so now MS API can make the DX12U Mesh Shader feature work across all the PC GPUs that supports it.

What people is rumoring is the actual RDNA 2's Geometry Engine was enhanced by Sony for PS5... that is hard to believe unless we see some evidences.

Everyone but you seems to understand that Sony didn't implement AMD's version of mesh shader hardware lol

 

[ethomaz]

Everyone but you seems to understand that Sony didn't implement AMD's version of mesh shader hardware lol

Who is everyone? Rumors lol

Sorry but you are trying to say based in rumors that PS5 doesn't have the Primitive Units found in RDNA 2 that are responsible for these Mesh Shaders.

 

[FrankWza]

Jeez, how absolutely pitiful it must be to go to such lengths in order to paint the picture you're trying to paint. You've reached the the pinnacle of console warring.

I'm sorry, you don't get to decide what's pitiful and what's not. You're fud spreading regarding Gamepass alone lost you that privilege.

Your entire post is nothing more than guessing. Is the I/O the biggest difference between these consoles like you said? The realistic evidence so far would suggest that it's anything but. The clear advantage was supposed to be in regards to loading times

These parts here prove your short term memory is terrible and you have absolutely NO business talking about I/O. I was trying to point that out to go in detail. But, that’s the summary of you discussing SSD on either of these consoles. You’re embarrassing yourself. And , my so called fud about gamepass is that it’s $1. I, at one point, thought it was $1 per month. I overvalued it. Oops. It’s .03 cents a month.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[IntentionalPun]

Who is everyone? Rumors lol

Sorry but you are trying to say based in rumors that PS5 doesn't have the Primitive Units found in RDNA 2 that are responsible for these Mesh Shaders.

WTF is a primitive unit?

You mean primitive shaders?

Those are an RDNA1 feature... Mesh Shaders add an advancement on top of them.

So no, I'm not arguing that the PS5 doesn't have primitive shaders.. I'm saying pretty much everyone seems to get they don't have AMD's mesh shaders.

 

[Gamerguy84]

Sony really gonna make it official with Bluepoint and put a ring on it?

Wow I really hope this is true.

 

[IntentionalPun]

ethomaz : Here's geordie's thread he made on it:

Sony custom RDNA2 have their own VRS and mesh shading - Cerny and Naughty dog

There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations. See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation...

www.neogaf.com

 

[ethomaz]

WTF is a primitive unit?

You mean primitive shaders?

Those are an RDNA1 feature... Mesh Shaders add an advancement on top of them.

So no, I'm not arguing that the PS5 doesn't have primitive shaders.. I'm saying pretty much everyone seems to get they don't have AMD's mesh shaders.

If you don't even know what Primitive Unit is then why are you even discussing Mesh Shaders lol
There are 2 Primitive Units per Shader Engine in RDNA 1 or 2.

ethomaz : Here's geordie's thread he made on it:

Sony custom RDNA2 have their own VRS and mesh shading - Cerny and Naughty dog

There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations. See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation...

www.neogaf.com

I love geordie but you guys really falls from his stories without evidence?
He created this thread because Xbox fans keep saying PS5 was not RDNA 2 and so it didn't have Mesh Shaders or VRS.

This is what RDNA 2 describe Mash Shaders.

What I can say it is way less flexible than nVidia implementation... nVidia allows for lower draw-calls and allocation for more workload per draw-call... AMD solution follow the DX12U solution that just focus in primarily optimizes the workloads by early culling of primitives and data reuse.

If you want to take fully use of MeshShaders in nVidia GPUs you will need to use a nVidia extension because DX12U are limited.
Now I have no ideia how PS5 API implemented the call of Mesh Shaders in AMD hardware but I'm sure it is not flexible like nVidia if they are using the RDNA 2 hardware.... they will be limited to what RDNA 2 devlivery.

Now can Sony implement a more flexible MeshShaders solution similar to nVidia? Yes, they can. Are there any evidence of that? No. Do you know the chances to that have happened? IMO low.

In a hypothetical scenario where Sony asked to implement a early version of the GE + PrimUnits from RDNA 3... when we will know about? Just when AMD choose to talk about RDNA 3.

 

[assurdum]

WTF is a primitive unit?

You mean primitive shaders?

Those are an RDNA1 feature... Mesh Shaders add an advancement on top of them.

So no, I'm not arguing that the PS5 doesn't have primitive shaders.. I'm saying pretty much everyone seems to get they don't have AMD's mesh shaders.

I mean, could be they aren't tied to the RDNA2 architecture as series X but they are part to the GE for a better access to the low API of ps5. Doesn't means they are worst or whatever . I don't know if it's technically wrong consider them as the AMD mesh shaders or whatever.

 

[3liteDragon]

A bit inferior in what way? The purpose is exactly the same...

The purpose is the same, the implementation is where the main differences are. According to this guy, the PS5's implementation is able to cull geometry much earlier in the pipeline and the entire pipeline is more customizable by developers compared to what DX12U allows. Another difference is that the ENTIRE process is hardware-accelerated by a fixed function unit known as the custom Geometry Engine on PS5, whereas on DX12U, part of the process actually runs on the CUs/SMs themselves.

Same thing with Variable Rate Shading/VRS (which is also hardware-accelerated by the custom GE on PS5), the PS5 implementation allows changes to be made much earlier in the pipeline and has more precision than the Xbox implementation. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen as more next-gen games come out this generation, this is all based off of one insider like RGT, BUT he's one of the most reliable ones out there too.

 

[MasterCornholio]

WTF is a primitive unit?

You mean primitive shaders?

Those are an RDNA1 feature... Mesh Shaders add an advancement on top of them.

So no, I'm not arguing that the PS5 doesn't have primitive shaders.. I'm saying pretty much everyone seems to get they don't have AMD's mesh shaders.

About RDNA2. Supposedly it has all these features that help improve performance. Features like mesh shaders and VRS for example.

However Sony chose to leave them out of the PS5 even though they help with performance.

Doesn't anyone find that odd?

I don't think Sony would leave such performance boosting features out unless they have something to replace them with.

But maybe I'm just stupid saying this and Sony are that dumb.

 

[IntentionalPun]

If you don't even know what Primitive Unit is then why are you even discussing Mesh Shaders lol
There are 2 Primitive Units per Shader Engine in RDNA 1 or 2.

I've just never heard the term.. and googled it to not many results. But I see it in RDNA docs.

I love geordie but you guys really falls from his stories without evidence?
He created this thread because Xbox fans keep saying PS5 was not RDNA 2 and so it didn't have Mesh Shaders or VRS.

I don't take Geordie's word for anything.. but he and everyone else on places like Beyond3D have come to the conclusion Sony doesn't have AMD's Mesh Shaders.

 

[Lysandros]

Little to none.... just implementation differences... the goal and results should be similar.

RDNA 1 has a Geometric Engine complex where there is what is called buy AMD Primitive Shader Units... RDNA 2 made these Primitive Shaders more flexible and inline with what nVidia calls Mesh Shaders... so now MS API can make the DX12U Mesh Shader feature work across all the PC GPUs that supports it.

What people is rumoring is the actual RDNA 2's Geometry Engine was enhanced by Sony for PS5... that is hard to believe unless we see some evidences.

It's always good to remain sceptical and wait for 'evidences', but why is it particulary difficult for you to believe that Sony further customized RDNA2's unified GE to be fully programmable? Matt Hargett practically confirmed it when he spend pretty long time talking about fixed function vs programmable GE's in context of a new switch in RGT podcast. Then there is his post about the matter on Twitter. The base knowledge/hint is from Road to PS5 by Cerny of course.

 

[IntentionalPun]

About RDNA2. Supposedly it has all these features that help improve performance. Features like mesh shaders and VRS for example.

However Sony chose to leave them out of the PS5 even though they help with performance.

Doesn't anyone find that odd?

I don't think Sony would leave such performance boosting features out unless they have something to replace them with.

But maybe I'm just stupid saying this and Sony are that dumb.

It's not odd.. the assumption is that Sony has their own version, because AMD's weren't ready by the time they wanted to start producing kits. And/or Sony didn't like AMD's implementation. I'm not suggesting Sony has no concept similar to "Mesh Shaders", but it's generally presumed they don't have AMD's.

We know PS5 doesn't have every RDNA 2 feature as developed by AMD.

We have lots of people claiming Sony's are better though.

 

[assurdum]

The purpose is the same, the implementation is where the main differences are. According to this guy, the PS5's implementation is able to cull geometry much earlier in the pipeline and the entire pipeline is more customizable by developers compared to what DX12U allows. Another difference is that the ENTIRE process is hardware-accelerated by a fixed function unit known as the custom Geometry Engine on PS5, whereas on DX12U, part of the process actually runs on the CUs/SMs themselves.

Same thing with Variable Rate Shading/VRS (which is also hardware-accelerated by the custom GE), the PS5 implementation allows changes to be made much earlier in the pipeline and has more precision than the Xbox implementation. Whether this is true remains to be seen as more next-gen games come out this generation, this is all based off of one insider like RGT, BUT he's one of the most reliable ones out there too.

Wait a minute maybe I misunderstood you. So basically there are people who said they are better than mesh shaders? I think you said the opposite. Well low access API in theory are always better than generic virtual libraries, isn't it exactly surprising.

 

[MasterCornholio]

It's not odd.. the assumption is that Sony has their own version, because AMD's weren't ready by the time they wanted to start producing kits. And/or Sony didn't like AMD's implementation. I'm not suggesting Sony has no concept similar to "Mesh Shaders", but it's generally presumed they don't have AMD's.

We know PS5 doesn't have every RDNA 2 feature as developed by AMD.

We have lots of people claiming Sony's are better though.

Microsoft didn't delay their system to include RDNA2 in it. I don't see why Sony couldn't have released the PS5 with full RDNA2 features

 

[ethomaz]

I've just never heard the term.. and googled it to not many results. But I see it in RDNA docs.

I don't take Geordie's word for anything.. but he and everyone else on places like Beyond3D have come to the conclusion Sony doesn't have AMD's Mesh Shaders.

I added more to my post... added that pic too for reference it is a RDNA 2 where AMD says they enhanced the RB for VRS.
Take a look that they never said they enhanced the GE and PrimitiveUnits to MeshShaders... making it look like it is more a programmable feature inside the RDNA 2 instead of new hardware features.

BTW that is basically what Mesh Shaders is... a new way to path the shaders thought the GPU units... it is not typical Shader processing path (basically there is change in order of what happened inside the GPU for Shaders).

 

[assurdum]

Microsoft didn't delay their system to include RDNA2 in it. I don't see why Sony couldn't have released the PS5 with full RDNA2 features

More like they delayed their system because they wanted the higher TF/CUs possible.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

Ampere: PS5 and Xbox Series X|S sales in line with, not ahead of, previous gen​

Data from Ampere Analysis suggests that Xbox Series X|S has sold 2.8 million units since launching in November -- lagging a little behind the Xbox One during the same post-launch timeframe at 2.9 million units.

Meanwhile, PS5 has matched the performance of PS4, which shifted 4.2 million units in its first few months after launching in November 2013.
It's also worth noting the PS4 achieved this without its home market of Japan, where it did not launch until Q1 2014. PS5, meanwhile, launched simultaneously worldwide.

Ampere believes PS5 would likely have sold more than five million units thus far had availability been less of an issue.
The analysis firm also expects PS5 could sell between 7.6 million and 8 million consoles by the end of March 2021, which would put it ahead of PS4's 7.5 million sales in the same time frame.

Despite having the cheapest next-gen console in the Xbox Series S, and launching in more than three times as many markets as the Xbox One in Novembr 2013, the company still fell 100,000 units short of its previous performance.
Ampere adds that, while Microsoft is focusing on recurring revenue through Game Pass and general audience engagement across consoles, PC and even mobile, rather than primarily relying on traditional hardware sales, it believes Series X|S owners will remain A cornerstone of the Xbox business until at least 2025.

Ampere: PS5 and Xbox Series X|S sales in line with, not ahead of, previous gen

A new report suggests supply constraints have prevented the next-generation PlayStation and Xbox consoles from signific…

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[3liteDragon]

Wait a minute maybe I misunderstood you. So basically there are people who said they are better than mesh shaders? I think you said the opposite. Well low access API in theory are always better than generic virtual libraries, isn't it exactly surprising.

Well technically if it can cull geometry much earlier in the pipeline (which actually improves performance/frame rates significantly) than DX12U and is way more programmable/exploitable by developers, then I would say Sony's implementation of it is in fact better than DX12U's implementation of mesh shaders and more performant.

 

[Shelookdlvl18]

And then we have games that demonstrate extremely fast load times on the PS5. Spiderman Remastered, Spiderman Mike's Morales, Demon Souls and NiOh are the best examples of that in my opinion. Then there's the question of how Ratchet will handle the I/O since it's supposed to be a proof of how it works.

I would agree with you that the PS5s I/O is inferior due to some of the multiplats but then we have examples of when it can be incredibly fast.

I guess in order for the I/O to be of any use the devs have to program for it. And that's something that's probably not done in multiplats but it is with 1st party titles and exclusives.

I guess we have to wait for more games before being certain of the systems I/O capabilities. Does that seem ok to you?

The games you listed that demonstrate "extremely fast load times" aren't comparable. Spiderman and Miles Morales are a last gen exclusive and it's expansion, and Demon Souls is a remake of a ten year old game. None of which are on the competing console. So how "extremely fast" those loading times are is subjective as there's nothing to compare it to. We can wait and see what happens in regards to Ratchet and Clank, but at this point we simply don't know.

Your second paragraph mentions "incredibly fast examples" as if it's a proper caveat or something. Where are these examples? No comparable examples exist.

All that aside, my overall point was that everything at this point is speculation based on incredibly little evidence. There are a few assumptions that we can make based on the general history of gaming development. That would include the prediction that devs will be able to get considerably more from these consoles over the next few years. It's also not unfounded to suggest that the back half of this gen is when we'll really see what these machines are capable of, as that's typically been the case previously. Guesses like that are easily evidenced, and based on sound logic.

However, when the speculation gets all off in the weeds as to how this specific feature will be a game changer, or how this pipeline will cause this to perform better than that by this percent, or how this feature can read this which in turn will make one do something better than another, it almost never pans out. It's fun to theorize about it for sure, but it can get way out of hand at times. There's usually evidence or some predetermined data that can be used to speculate things, but in threads such as these, there is the potential for a snowball effect. Where more and more speculating becomes a wishlist of features, and performance predictions have less and less proof with any substance.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Microsoft didn't delay their system to include RDNA2 in it. I don't see why Sony couldn't have released the PS5 with full RDNA2 features

We know Sony doesn't have all of AMD's RDNA2 features.

I'm not sure how MS factors into that other than we know Xbox has AMD's version of "mesh shaders."

We can presume if Sony developed their own version, they'd have no reason to include AMD's version of something.

And people presume one of those customizations involved something similar to Mesh Shaders; whether that's because AMD's wasn't ready or not is just theroy.

As is the idea that PS5 doesn't have AMD's "mesh shaders".... but that's based on a number of things.

 

[3liteDragon]

I added more to my post... added that pic too for reference it is a RDNA 2 where AMD says they enhanced the RB for VRS.
Take a look that they never said they enhanced the GE and PrimitiveUnits to MeshShaders... making it look like it is more a programmable feature inside the RDNA 2 instead of new hardware features.

BTW that is basically what Mesh Shaders is... a new way to path the shaders thought the GPU units... it is not typical Shader processing path (basically there is change in order of what happened inside the GPU for Shaders).

The thing is, when you look at the hardware RDNA 1 & 2 have, there's not much difference between the primitive units and etc. The difference between both architectures when it comes to geometry handling & culling are the shaders AMD used in RDNA 1 vs. the shaders Microsoft use in DX12U, the compute-based mesh shaders in the DX12U API are far better in that area than AMD's own compute-based primitive shaders for RDNA 1, which is why AMD abandoned it for RDNA 2.

 

[M1chl]

Oh you are right; CUDA replaced dedicated PhysX stuff.. but my point still stands, nVidia has been offloading CPU tasks beyond rendering for a long ass time.. about 15 years really. As well as having "programmable" GPUs in general.

edit: And I've done a bunch of searching, and everything I can find beyond the generic statements made here that "the cell paved the way for PS4" is.. sort of the opposite lol

Cell was like a very slow version of GPGPU (global purpose GPU), so in that case it's true. And ACE units in AMD cards were probably longer than in nVidia, the problem is AMD opted not to create toolkit for it and just use OpenCL LOL, that's why nVidia dominates. CUDA is the shit.

Remembering AMD fanboys mentioning that AMD is supporting open source and not proprietary solutions, was comedy gold back in the day.

 

[kyliethicc]

Horizon Forbidden West

 

[kyliethicc]

Ampere: PS5 and Xbox Series X|S sales in line with, not ahead of, previous gen​

Ampere: PS5 and Xbox Series X|S sales in line with, not ahead of, previous gen

A new report suggests supply constraints have prevented the next-generation PlayStation and Xbox consoles from signific…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Despite having the cheapest next-gen console in the Xbox Series S, and launching in more than three times as many markets as the Xbox One in Novembr 2013, the company still fell 100,000 units short of its previous performance.

Not a good sign for Microsoft. Launch 2 consoles, one at a low price, and still sell less than last gen. And that last gen was a bad launch with an overpriced console.

 

[MasterCornholio]

The games you listed that demonstrate "extremely fast load times" aren't comparable. Spiderman and Miles Morales are a last gen exclusive and it's expansion, and Demon Souls is a remake of a ten year old game. None of which are on the competing console. So how "extremely fast" those loading times are is subjective as there's nothing to compare it to. We can wait and see what happens in regards to Ratchet and Clank, but at this point we simply don't know.

Your second paragraph mentions "incredibly fast examples" as if it's a proper caveat or something. Where are these examples? No comparable examples exist.

All that aside, my overall point was that everything at this point is speculation based on incredibly little evidence. There are a few assumptions that we can make based on the general history of gaming development. That would include the prediction that devs will be able to get considerably more from these consoles over the next few years. It's also not unfounded to suggest that the back half of this gen is when we'll really see what these machines are capable of, as that's typically been the case previously. Guesses like that are easily evidenced, and based on sound logic.

However, when the speculation gets all off in the weeds as to how this specific feature will be a game changer, or how this pipeline will cause this to perform better than that by this percent, or how this feature can read this which in turn will make one do something better than another, it almost never pans out. It's fun to theorize about it for sure, but it can get way out of hand at times. There's usually evidence or some predetermined data that can be used to speculate things, but in threads such as these, there is the potential for a snowball effect. Where more and more speculating becomes a wishlist of features, and performance predictions have less and less proof with any substance.

Sounds like that's something that can be applied to both systems. In the end what matters is what we actually get.

I guess it's going to be up to 1st parties to really prove each systems strengths but at the moment they seem relatively par with each other.

And that's me being a raging idiotic console warrior like you said before.

 

[ethomaz]

The thing is, when you look at the hardware RDNA 1 & 2 have, there's not much difference between the primitive units and etc. The difference between both architectures when it comes to geometry handling & culling are the shaders AMD used in RDNA 1 vs. the shaders Microsoft use in DX12U, the compute-based mesh shaders in the DX12U API are far better in that area than AMD's own compute-based primitive shaders for RDNA 1, which is why AMD abandoned it for RDNA 2.

It is not abandoned... it is there... Mesh Shaders needs to do primitive shaders.

Mesh Shaders like I said seems to change the order of the processing related to shaders... but still all the processing phases abre being done.

 

[3liteDragon]

It is not abandoned... it is there.

By abandoned, I meant them marketing the mesh shading feature on RDNA 2 mostly with the DX12U API. Their own shaders are still probably there, but the choice ultimately comes down to developers when picking which one to use.