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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Neo_game

Member
Not quite. The XSX uses 10x GDDR6 memory chips. Each chip has 32 lanes, so 32 x 10 gives your 320 bit bus width. It's a single common bus.

The slow and fast pools are created by some of the chips being of differing density, i.e. 6x 2GByte chips + 4x 1GByte.

The chips are samsung's 14Gbits/s chips, so the bandwidth is calculated by this by the number of lanes accessed on RAM chips.

So the 10GB fast pool is all 10x chips for 32 lanes per chip x 14Gbits per sec x 1/8 bits per Byte x 10 chips = 560GB/s. The first 1GB on the 2GB density chips is accessed for this pool.

For the slower pool: 32 lanes per chip x 6 chips x 14Gbits/sec x 1/8 bits per Byte = 336 GB/s. For this pool the second 1GB of the 6x 2GB density chips is accessed.

Since you're accessing the same physical chips, over the same physical bus, for each pool, it's phsyically impossible to access both at the same time. Access is inter leaved.

I know that and it was nicely explained by this user last year:









Not considering the reserved slower memory for OS, apps. It should start drinking from the 10 blue portion first whether it is GPU, CPU does not matter just like the PS5. That is why I said once it goes pass 10gb limit and both faster and slower, yellow portion are being used, it could cause problem as Programmer, SX memory controller etc will have to mange that GPU, CPU stack accordingly. For PS5 it is straight forward with uniform 256bit bus width so 8 fully filled glasses of only blue portion.
 

Garani

Member


More proof RGT channel has no bias... Respect earned. 👍


Naaaaa, just simple click bait at this stage.

now let's wait to see rgt reaction when he will discover mesh/primitive shader objective is to use compute to replace geometry fixed function when you need more flexible and optimized code...
he could have read all that sooner....it's not serious imo...
I still think the sony collaboration with amd is the reason why they have now a working ngg in rdna2 (unlike vega/rdna fiasco)

Well, someone is already using a 6800XT to try to get a win on a console. I mean, it's sad, really.

He needs to have a time stamp on the video at all times (Gamers Nexus news feature is good that way) so we can skip his endless filler talk and go straight to whatever he has to say.

And loose the ad revenue based on how much you watched the whole thing? Come on, the guy has got to eat!
 

8BiTw0LF

Banned
Just came across this 😂

SYWpCqM.gif
 
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assurdum

Banned
I know that and it was nicely explained by this user last year:









Not considering the reserved slower memory for OS, apps. It should start drinking from the 10 blue portion first whether it is GPU, CPU does not matter just like the PS5. That is why I said once it goes pass 10gb limit and both faster and slower, yellow portion are being used, it could cause problem as Programmer, SX memory controller etc will have to mange that GPU, CPU stack accordingly. For PS5 it is straight forward with uniform 256bit bus width so 8 fully filled glasses of only blue portion.

Not again ... this is about data contention not bandwidth speeds...series X can't use simultaneous two different speeds in the 2 processors with an unified architecture. CPU will slowdown GPU, not every time but it will happen.
 
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Lunatic_Gamer

Gold Member

PlayStation London Studio Next Project Has “Huge Potential”​


Head of Operations Tara Saunders commented on the London Studio’s next project.

Tara: Yes, I want us to dream big and realise our full potential… but at the same time ensure that there is a real emphasis on ethical and sustainable game development practices. We have super strong values in place that mean we should be keeping in mind the importance of inclusivity, balance and team spirit on a day to day basis. Our next project has HUGE potential and we want to leverage that to the max by empowering the team to thrive and deliver a top quality game!

 

Neo_game

Member
Not again ... this is about data contention not bandwidth speeds...series X can't use simultaneous two different speeds in the 2 processors. CPU will slowdown GPU inevitably, not every time but it will happen.

What are you even talking about ? I never said it has access to 560gb/sec + 336gb/sec BW. lol.
 





Assuming this is all true, I hope this strategy pays off in the end.

Sony's strategy of course is to make money but also to get non-playstation players into their system. So if a game like God of War is released on PC and PC users love it, they'll most likely buy the sequel as well which will only be available on Playstation so very likely they'll purchase PS console.

I think the timing of these releases on PC will be related to when the sequels will come out, so God of War will be released on PC months before "Ragnarok" (never heard of it). I think we might also see the same with others as well because we know Ghost of Tsushima is likely getting a sequel as well. I would also love a next-gen uncharted game!

A few people have leaked now that Bloodborn is getting released on PC and it will get a remaster for the PS5 which includes 60FPS and many other graphical imporvements (if the rumours are true that is.)
 

kyliethicc

Member
Sony's strategy of course is to make money but also to get non-playstation players into their system. So if a game like God of War is released on PC and PC users love it, they'll most likely buy the sequel as well which will only be available on Playstation so very likely they'll purchase PS console.

I think the timing of these releases on PC will be related to when the sequels will come out, so God of War will be released on PC months before "Ragnarok" (never heard of it). I think we might also see the same with others as well because we know Ghost of Tsushima is likely getting a sequel as well. I would also love a next-gen uncharted game!

A few people have leaked now that Bloodborn is getting released on PC and it will get a remaster for the PS5 which includes 60FPS and many other graphical imporvements (if the rumours are true that is.)
I doubt Sony is trying to get many PC users to buy PS5s. Look at how they're chasing tons of console exclusives. PS and PC release, just not on xbox. FF16, Deathloop, Ghostwire, Godfall, Kena and lots of other indies.

What's the better option if you're a suit and the goal is max profits?

A) Keep 1st party games only on PS5. Sell some consoles to PC users, but for a loss for now. Other PC users wait til like 2025, buy cheap/used PS5 slims, then pick up the 3-4 big games they want by buying cheap/used physical discs. Sony sees little/none of that money. And most of these PC users are 't gonna play multiplats on PS5, spend on MTX, or get PS Plus, or PS Now. Some won't even keep the console very long. Few (if any) are going to become lucrative engaged spenders.

B) Sell 1st party games on PC too, but only digital. Get many more PC users to buy your games (for higher prices digitally) than would otherwise buy your hardware. No used game market. Sell nothing at a loss. Perhaps, even become a top selling publisher of games on PC and create new fans, grow the brand even, and compete beyond just your own platform. Unfortunately you do share some of that revenue with Valve / Epic.

I'm not saying its what's best for the games. But option B is more profitable and suits chase the money.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
Something which is missing, is despite Sony being "hardware" company, they have waaay more efficient APIs, like in no same galaxy as Direct X. And problem with PS3 was small memory, rather than split. Shared memory is not some magical plus, most often is a bottleneck. It's cheaper. And for that matter Xbox also have shared memory pool, but some of those chips are connected with less "wires"... Data directed to GPU and CPU, are not uniformed data, only case when it's good is some edge case, where you can take same data and calculate something on CPU and then pass it to the GPU, however this paradigm is way past "best before date". If you think it's wonky logic, try to have 20 years old standard with AF16x on consoles, you starts to hit limitation of shared pool very quickly.
Good point, I should have been clear that the XSX is not a true "split memory" configuration. I only mean the speed difference between the 10GB and the additional 6. You're absolutely right that shared memory isn't magic either. I was just addressing mostly why the memory configuration is ONE thing that people are speculating on that might be causing the XSX to lag behind or at least not show that numerical superiority over the PS5. Thanks!

You also bring up another thing that supports the point I was making. The original post I replied to was implying that because MS has so much money they MUST have designed superior hardware and wouldn't be held back by making compromises just to hit a certain price point. I was pointing out that Sony in fact had much more experience in designing and selling electronic hardware. But you bring up another reason it's silly to go with pseudo logic like this. Because you're right about the API's used by each system not being the same. Despite Microsoft being the "Software company" Sony his historically done better with their own software API's for their products.

You know, it's almost like the smaller company with more experience, does a better job of designing hardware and pairing it with effective software! How can that be? They don't have as much money! :)
 
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where is the video on how to open a text file using notepad and changing the value from 30 to 60 fps? too complicated for the ice team?
I'm not really fan of the game (never really got into it) but it's one of their biggest titles that launched last year. They'd be fools not to release a 60 FPS patch. Wasn't there a lot of rumours swirling around that they would release a PS5 patch along with the multiplayer in the coming months.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member

Unreal. Obviously forced to leave because accordingly to the article he has "alarming" beliefs. Yep, you guessed it...he had a youtube channel and apparently had some anti-feminist and anti-SJW opinions. That's just not allowed in the new authoritarian Left society. You will conform or be re-educated. Say no to 'wrong think!' Say no to 'your truth!' There is only the people and the will of the people. CONFORM!

Sheesh. Well, I wish the guy well. Maybe he can find a game company that still believes in freedom of speech and expression. You know...diversity.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Good point, I should have been clear that the XSX is not a true "split memory" configuration. I only mean the speed difference between the 10GB and the additional 6. You're absolutely right that shared memory isn't magic either. I was just addressing mostly why the memory configuration is ONE thing that people are speculating on that might be causing the XSX to lag behind or at least not show that numerical superiority over the PS5. Thanks!

You also bring up another thing that supports the point I was making. The original post I replied to was implying that because MS has so much money they MUST have designed superior hardware and wouldn't be held back by making compromises just to hit a certain price point. I was pointing out that Sony in fact had much more experience in designing and selling electronic hardware. But you bring up another reason it's silly to go with pseudo logic like this. Because you're right about the API's used by each system not being the same. Despite Microsoft being the "Software company" Sony his historically done better with their own software API's for their products.

You know, it's almost like the smaller company with more experience, does a better job of designing hardware and pairing it with effective software! How can that be? They don't have as much money! :)
I try to put the effort of my past experience to provide valuable input, I vastly prefer Microsoft way due to various reasons, however being at the development team, provided me with some additional knowledge, which I like to put, when I am not trolling. I enjoy banter, however I do not enjoy, when people claim that they have knowledge about something which they read on the internet or heard from grifters like Moore law is dead.

I also believe that the GDK has long way to go, when people are saying that tools will improve over time with both manufactures, I tend to not agree, you cannot get closer to HW than what Sony is doing, they can put effort with talented team, like ICE in PS3 era to developm some efficient algorythm to help devs, however I you someone wants to draw pixels directly from debug console, only options is PS5. You cannot do that on Xbox tricks like this, you have to go through layers of Direct X APIs (they are tailored to console, it's not like on PC....but maybe it was, I haven't looked on GDK yet), however I know for a fact that espeically with X1X coming, the SDK/Tools etc was mess in the background, it did things which was not suppose to. There is a whole layers which you cannot influence, if you try MS will reject it.

Also another fact is that with Hypervisor the whole game is bundle with Title OS (small kernel with approved APIs which you can use to talk to HW) and that system OS is in another buble, they are communicating basically like webpage with server. And that Title OS had long way to go and now I have no reason to believe it, that they are even close to being done. Skip-alpha of new OS kernle is full of bugs, games are shutting down consoles, which works on Alpha > builds. So as much as "tools" are good meme for laughs, I stand with what I said and I belive that XSX has it's strength, few days ago in this thread there was some info about MS finally allowing draw calls to be managed just by GPU and that's a HUGE news. However in MS fashion, there could be additional complexities, which going to take years to get advantage of. Specially big engines are developed slowly, they don't react fast to new features in SDK/GDK/TOOLS.

I think VRS, SFS and so on are great things to have, I also am not sure if Sony is having same-ish things in their toolkit. For me is confusing to hear that Geometry engine will fill the void on PS5 for these functions, I don't see connection. HOWEVER, it would be foolish to expect that Sony didn't do anything on the efficiency front.

Also it's fact that Sony is doing their own drivers for the APU, AMD providing just a bpart of bios, with MS they have driver from AMD, they are treating more like a PC, so there is a posibilities for huge gains.

Definitive and verifiable advantage which Sony have right now is ability to compress games (better put, to do this with HW logic, not SW) with Kraken and OODLE, it's probably temporary win, because BCPack is still in development, so we could possibly see some improvement, but I don't expect MS to catch with Sony, because one think for sure, MS is not that open using open-source software in their close environment.

There is tons of valuable talk to have, however if someone is throwing PR stuff around and don't even understand how is that suppose to work, it's a tough job.

Hope someone appreciate my input.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
I try to put the effort of my past experience to provide valuable input, I vastly prefer Microsoft way due to various reasons, however being at the development team, provided me with some additional knowledge, which I like to put, when I am not trolling. I enjoy banter, however I do not enjoy, when people claim that they have knowledge about something which they read on the internet or heard from grifters like Moore law is dead.

I also believe that the GDK has long way to go, when people are saying that tools will improve over time with both manufactures, I tend to not agree, you cannot get closer to HW than what Sony is doing, they can put effort with talented team, like ICE in PS3 era to developm some efficient algorythm to help devs, however I you someone wants to draw pixels directly from debug console, only options is PS5. You cannot do that on Xbox tricks like this, you have to go through layers of Direct X APIs (they are tailored to console, it's not like on PC....but maybe it was, I haven't looked on GDK yet), however I know for a fact that espeically with X1X coming, the SDK/Tools etc was mess in the background, it did things which was not suppose to. There is a whole layers which you cannot influence, if you try MS will reject it.

Also another fact is that with Hypervisor the whole game is bundle with Title OS (small kernel with approved APIs which you can use to talk to HW) and that system OS is in another buble, they are communicating basically like webpage with server. And that Title OS had long way to go and now I have no reason to believe it, that they are even close to being done. Skip-alpha of new OS kernle is full of bugs, games are shutting down consoles, which works on Alpha > builds. So as much as "tools" are good meme for laughs, I stand with what I said and I belive that XSX has it's strength, few days ago in this thread there was some info about MS finally allowing draw calls to be managed just by GPU and that's a HUGE news. However in MS fashion, there could be additional complexities, which going to take years to get advantage of. Specially big engines are developed slowly, they don't react fast to new features in SDK/GDK/TOOLS.

I think VRS, SFS and so on are great things to have, I also am not sure if Sony is having same-ish things in their toolkit. For me is confusing to hear that Geometry engine will fill the void on PS5 for these functions, I don't see connection. HOWEVER, it would be foolish to expect that Sony didn't do anything on the efficiency front.

Also it's fact that Sony is doing their own drivers for the APU, AMD providing just a bpart of bios, with MS they have driver from AMD, they are treating more like a PC, so there is a posibilities for huge gains.

Definitive and verifiable advantage which Sony have right now is ability to compress games (better put, to do this with HW logic, not SW) with Kraken and OODLE, it's probably temporary win, because BCPack is still in development, so we could possibly see some improvement, but I don't expect MS to catch with Sony, because one think for sure, MS is not that open using open-source software in their close environment.

There is tons of valuable talk to have, however if someone is throwing PR stuff around and don't even understand how is that suppose to work, it's a tough job.

Hope someone appreciate my input.
Yes indeed. Much respect. As you say, the speculation can be valuable. I just don't think that saying MS definitely did better because they have more money is validated any more than saying Sony did better because they have more experience in electronic hardware. Just...no. Speculation is best served about the technical aspects of the systems..both what we know and what we don't yet know. I think that's what you're saying as well, unless I completely missed your point. In any case, good debate and discussion is awesome!
 

Rea

Member
Shared memory is not some magical plus, most often is a bottleneck.
This is my 1st time seeing, someone mentioned that having unified memory is a bottleneck for APU. It's cheaper, yes, but it also reduces latency and all the electronics devices that has an APU as a processor has unified memory. It is a effective solution for reducing latency removing bottleneck for an APU. I'm not sure why did you say it's a bottleneck.
 
....
Hope someone appreciate my input.

Always, M1chl M1chl .... always :messenger_ok:

This is my 1st time seeing, someone mentioned that having unified memory is a bottleneck for APU. It's cheaper, yes, but it also reduces latency and all the electronics devices that has an APU as a processor has unified memory. It is a effective solution for reducing latency removing bottleneck for an APU. I'm not sure why did you say it's a bottleneck.

I'd hazard a guess and suggest it's in reference to the bus contention issues Sony's FP studios have discussed before in the past. Split memory configs have their own drawbacks too, like having less overall effective memory due to the need to duplicate data between the two pools.

As with everything, there are pros and cons.
 
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This is my 1st time seeing, someone mentioned that having unified memory is a bottleneck for APU. It's cheaper, yes, but it also reduces latency and all the electronics devices that has an APU as a processor has unified memory. It is a effective solution for reducing latency removing bottleneck for an APU. I'm not sure why did you say it's a bottleneck.

The main advantages of unified memory are at dev level, it's easier to use and simplify many things at soft level but also, it simplify the hardware design (that's why it cheapier to use in such case). But you have some bottleneck, for example simply the facts that you share the bandwidth between the GPU and other componants, so the GPU have smaller effective bandwidth that it could have with dedicated memory. The gain you have with quantity of datas shared through memory is not negligible but not as important as many think in fact. You have the bus contention due to componants that request access and use the same memory, and you'll also have the fact that the memory used is GDDR one instead of DDR for example in this case, which is less adapted for CPU usage on paper (which require less possible latencies instead of big bandwidth, but in gaming, don't know if that's really a big deal due to more specific work), etc...
In fact, for dedicated hardware such as game consoles, the advantages of this configuration are stronger than the drawbacks, but that's not a perfect/magical solution.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
This is my 1st time seeing, someone mentioned that having unified memory is a bottleneck for APU. It's cheaper, yes, but it also reduces latency and all the electronics devices that has an APU as a processor has unified memory. It is a effective solution for reducing latency removing bottleneck for an APU. I'm not sure why did you say it's a bottleneck.
Very well, I will explain it to on highway. Let's say that GDDR6 is very fast memory, but with bigger latency, which is not exactly suited for handling CPU operations, which tends to be like a small cars on highway, small and fast. (many of them and are latency sensitive) GPU operations are more like trucks, big trucks. Now if you saturate the bandwidth it's not saturated with just those big trucks on highway, but also small cars, so you have to take into consideration what are you try to fit onto highway and what not, because if you don't run CPU code there, you have no game, but if you choose not to run GPU operations, you are missing just something on the screen.

Now there was this talk about NUMA and supercharged architecture with ACE units, to help the CPU. However it was laters discovered that those units are great for some quick fast operations, which you can fit into CPU cache, however the benefit is not that great, when you try to run CPU specific operations which long instruction there, because it tends to be even slower than those old Jaguar cores. It was really close to what SPU was on PS3 CELL. On PS4 there was 8 of them to help each core, on Xbox there was just 2 of them, because like I said previously, MS aren't not fans of short simple code, even in their APIs.

And lastly when you have split pool like on PC, you have place where to do CPU operations, which is on memory pool which is not exactly fast, but it has very little latency and when you need both there are those huge L3 caches on current CPUs. GPU has it's own pool, where it doesn't have to deal with CPU operations. And that's why many times even slower PC performs better (maybe lower details, but higher resolution) than console. Because if you want to squeeze as much as possible, you have to have really tight scheduler. I recommend watching some technical talks about ID Tech 7, because that engine is masterpiece, especially when it comes to this limitation.
 

Rea

Member
Very well, I will explain it to on highway. Let's say that GDDR6 is very fast memory, but with bigger latency, which is not exactly suited for handling CPU operations, which tends to be like a small cars on highway, small and fast. (many of them and are latency sensitive) GPU operations are more like trucks, big trucks. Now if you saturate the bandwidth it's not saturated with just those big trucks on highway, but also small cars, so you have to take into consideration what are you try to fit onto highway and what not, because if you don't run CPU code there, you have no game, but if you choose not to run GPU operations, you are missing just something on the screen.

Now there was this talk about NUMA and supercharged architecture with ACE units, to help the CPU. However it was laters discovered that those units are great for some quick fast operations, which you can fit into CPU cache, however the benefit is not that great, when you try to run CPU specific operations which long instruction there, because it tends to be even slower than those old Jaguar cores. It was really close to what SPU was on PS3 CELL. On PS4 there was 8 of them to help each core, on Xbox there was just 2 of them, because like I said previously, MS aren't not fans of short simple code, even in their APIs.

And lastly when you have split pool like on PC, you have place where to do CPU operations, which is on memory pool which is not exactly fast, but it has very little latency and when you need both there are those huge L3 caches on current CPUs. GPU has it's own pool, where it doesn't have to deal with CPU operations. And that's why many times even slower PC performs better (maybe lower details, but higher resolution) than console. Because if you want to squeeze as much as possible, you have to have really tight scheduler. I recommend watching some technical talks about ID Tech 7, because that engine is masterpiece, especially when it comes to this limitation.
Thanks for explanation,
i still believe that unified memory is the best solution currently for mobiles devices which uses an APU as a main processor, like handphones and gaming consoles, the benefits are much more higher than the drawbacks.
I will look into ID tech engine that you have mentioned ,
Thanks for your input and i appreciate it.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
I try to put the effort of my past experience to provide valuable input, I vastly prefer Microsoft way due to various reasons, however being at the development team, provided me with some additional knowledge, which I like to put, when I am not trolling. I enjoy banter, however I do not enjoy, when people claim that they have knowledge about something which they read on the internet or heard from grifters like Moore law is dead.

I also believe that the GDK has long way to go, when people are saying that tools will improve over time with both manufactures, I tend to not agree, you cannot get closer to HW than what Sony is doing, they can put effort with talented team, like ICE in PS3 era to developm some efficient algorythm to help devs, however I you someone wants to draw pixels directly from debug console, only options is PS5. You cannot do that on Xbox tricks like this, you have to go through layers of Direct X APIs (they are tailored to console, it's not like on PC....but maybe it was, I haven't looked on GDK yet), however I know for a fact that espeically with X1X coming, the SDK/Tools etc was mess in the background, it did things which was not suppose to. There is a whole layers which you cannot influence, if you try MS will reject it.

Also another fact is that with Hypervisor the whole game is bundle with Title OS (small kernel with approved APIs which you can use to talk to HW) and that system OS is in another buble, they are communicating basically like webpage with server. And that Title OS had long way to go and now I have no reason to believe it, that they are even close to being done. Skip-alpha of new OS kernle is full of bugs, games are shutting down consoles, which works on Alpha > builds. So as much as "tools" are good meme for laughs, I stand with what I said and I belive that XSX has it's strength, few days ago in this thread there was some info about MS finally allowing draw calls to be managed just by GPU and that's a HUGE news. However in MS fashion, there could be additional complexities, which going to take years to get advantage of. Specially big engines are developed slowly, they don't react fast to new features in SDK/GDK/TOOLS.

I think VRS, SFS and so on are great things to have, I also am not sure if Sony is having same-ish things in their toolkit. For me is confusing to hear that Geometry engine will fill the void on PS5 for these functions, I don't see connection. HOWEVER, it would be foolish to expect that Sony didn't do anything on the efficiency front.

Also it's fact that Sony is doing their own drivers for the APU, AMD providing just a bpart of bios, with MS they have driver from AMD, they are treating more like a PC, so there is a posibilities for huge gains.

Definitive and verifiable advantage which Sony have right now is ability to compress games (better put, to do this with HW logic, not SW) with Kraken and OODLE, it's probably temporary win, because BCPack is still in development, so we could possibly see some improvement, but I don't expect MS to catch with Sony, because one think for sure, MS is not that open using open-source software in their close environment.

There is tons of valuable talk to have, however if someone is throwing PR stuff around and don't even understand how is that suppose to work, it's a tough job.

Hope someone appreciate my input.
I am quoting myself, because I was too inside my head and I fucked up one part. It was delivered with reallz non/articulated fashion. Tools™ get better on both systems, however with performance stack, eg. what is behind those API calls, how efficient those calls are, Sony already has a perfect solution pretty much, so there isn't much room to improve.
 

mejin

Member
I doubt Sony is trying to get many PC users to buy PS5s. Look at how they're chasing tons of console exclusives. PS and PC release, just not on xbox. FF16, Deathloop, Ghostwire, Godfall, Kena and lots of other indies.

What's the better option if you're a suit and the goal is max profits?

A) Keep 1st party games only on PS5. Sell some consoles to PC users, but for a loss for now. Other PC users wait til like 2025, buy cheap/used PS5 slims, then pick up the 3-4 big games they want by buying cheap/used physical discs. Sony sees little/none of that money. And most of these PC users are 't gonna play multiplats on PS5, spend on MTX, or get PS Plus, or PS Now. Some won't even keep the console very long. Few (if any) are going to become lucrative engaged spenders.

B) Sell 1st party games on PC too, but only digital. Get many more PC users to buy your games (for higher prices digitally) than would otherwise buy your hardware. No used game market. Sell nothing at a loss. Perhaps, even become a top selling publisher of games on PC and create new fans, grow the brand even, and compete beyond just your own platform. Unfortunately you do share some of that revenue with Valve / Epic.

I'm not saying its what's best for the games. But option B is more profitable and suits chase the money.

We will only see the impact of Jim Ryan's decisions a few years from now. In my opinion, the balance tends to the negative side and people will only notice when the damage is done.

I see that Nintendo has an independence that Sony, as a conglomerate that is in the hands of its shareholders, does not. Nintendo has greater control over its own shares and can take the course it wants without worrying about shareholders, since the largest shareholder is itself.

For example, when Nintendo was under great pressure to launch its games for smartphones (wiiu huge flop). it did but not in the way they wanted, it developed specific games for these platforms. They know the value of their ips for their own platform.

For me, the current actions of the management of Sony Interactive Entertainment may generate optimism in the short term, but in the long term they can pulverize the strength of the playstation brand.

I read Jimbo's responses talking about "slot games coming to PC". Basically, he is betting that Playstation community will not be affected by these decisions to launch the biggest Playstatino games on PC platform. In my opinion, this bet is so risky that I think Sony will lose in the long run.

Now let me go back to my short posts.
 

MistBreeze

Member
I do not know about Jim Ryan decision weather they are good or bad

Maybe the future will be most of games will be multiplatform regardless of consoles even first parties

but Maybe Sony hope if people on PC played GOW they will buy ps5 for GOW Ragnarok

Maybe the saw great sales from Horizon PC version

with AAA gaming development costs rising each generation maybe it is not optimal to make games exclusive any more

I do not know

even nintindo does not develop AAA games as they used to before

honestly I do not know what Sony is doing right now or even microsoft they are doing things differently
 

Garani

Member
For me, the current actions of the management of Sony Interactive Entertainment may generate optimism in the short term, but in the long term they can pulverize the strength of the playstation brand.

I read Jimbo's responses talking about "slot games coming to PC". Basically, he is betting that Playstation community will not be affected by these decisions to launch the biggest Playstatino games on PC platform. In my opinion, this bet is so risky that I think Sony will lose in the long run.

I see two scenario:
1) PCs get Ray Tracing and ultra fast SSDs for the cheap: the Playstation brand will just become software and will not deal with hardware anymore.
2) PCs with Ray Tracing and ultra fast SSDs will remain damn expensive (more than 1k) and people will keep on playing with crappy 4 year old GPus and HDDs. In this case the PS5 is the cheapest option to be able to play next gen.

Probably Sony is banking for the next 5 years on point 2, but getting ready to move software only if the PC market moves really fast. I don't like to see exclusives on PCs as much as the next man, but I can't do much about it.
 

Elog

Member
People are so over reacting to Sony moving titles to PC as well. It is obvious that - at least for now - exclusives launch on Playstation first and at a much later date on PC. In that way Sony builds interest in Playstation and drive enthusiasts to the platform at the same time as maximizing revenue from the games they develop. It is a complete win-win for everyone.

As long as there is a real difference in time when a game is available for the Playstation and for the PC environment there is absolutely no conflict here.
 

RaZoR No1

Member
People are so over reacting to Sony moving titles to PC as well. It is obvious that - at least for now - exclusives launch on Playstation first and at a much later date on PC. In that way Sony builds interest in Playstation and drive enthusiasts to the platform at the same time as maximizing revenue from the games they develop. It is a complete win-win for everyone.

As long as there is a real difference in time when a game is available for the Playstation and for the PC environment there is absolutely no conflict here.
IMO that's where you are bit wrong.

Most people go by the PS + PC or Switch + PC combo, because you cannot get the games on PC.
With releasing them on PC too you automatically remove the need of owning the said console.
You can play the best and cheapest version on PC and the released delay is just a very small issue to those gamers.
Kinda same with the Xbox too.. IMO one of the reason xbox will never overtake playstation..
If you have a decent PC, no need for a Xbox unless you want to have the console environment and the simplicity of the consoles.
For MS it is the same thing, if you play on PC or on Xbox, but is it the same for Sony too?

I think the biggest question currently is, how big will be the PC support from Sony.
Will they occasionally release an exclusive game, will it be always 6-12 months later etc. depending on their strategy some PC gamers wont buy a Playstation.

I mean the biggest reason to have exclusive games is to get as many users into your eco system as possible.
With this they will at least less consoles to the PC main users. How it will impact the business? Only time and Sony can tell it us
 
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Elog

Member
You can play the best and cheapest version on PC and the released delay is just a very small issue to those gamers.
It all boils down to this statement. Personally, I would never want to wait 2 years to play a game when I can just add 399 USD to play it now - my friends are thinking the same. If you are right that gamers are ok to not play games on release the whole equation shifts - and you would be correct. However, to make it clear - I think your statement above is incorrect and that most enthusiast gamers (i.e. those with advanced PC rigs) are not happy about waiting for 2 years to play something that is playable today if they just spend 399 USD more.
 
I doubt Sony is trying to get many PC users to buy PS5s. Look at how they're chasing tons of console exclusives. PS and PC release, just not on xbox. FF16, Deathloop, Ghostwire, Godfall, Kena and lots of other indies.

What's the better option if you're a suit and the goal is max profits?

A) Keep 1st party games only on PS5. Sell some consoles to PC users, but for a loss for now. Other PC users wait til like 2025, buy cheap/used PS5 slims, then pick up the 3-4 big games they want by buying cheap/used physical discs. Sony sees little/none of that money. And most of these PC users are 't gonna play multiplats on PS5, spend on MTX, or get PS Plus, or PS Now. Some won't even keep the console very long. Few (if any) are going to become lucrative engaged spenders.

B) Sell 1st party games on PC too, but only digital. Get many more PC users to buy your games (for higher prices digitally) than would otherwise buy your hardware. No used game market. Sell nothing at a loss. Perhaps, even become a top selling publisher of games on PC and create new fans, grow the brand even, and compete beyond just your own platform. Unfortunately you do share some of that revenue with Valve / Epic.

I'm not saying its what's best for the games. But option B is more profitable and suits chase the money.
It's kind of the dangerous strategy for Sony because they need to sell lot of consoles to make lot of money with they share on games, MTX or PS Plus of course some peoples just want to play on console but some peoples will also see that with one PC, they could play the Sony and Microsoft games without the need to buy a console in the end this strategy could see Sony selling less console and making obviously less money.

The best strategy for Sony would be to not release any PS5 games on PC before the end of this generation.
 

skit_data

Member
It's kind of the dangerous strategy for Sony because they need to sell lot of consoles to make lot of money with they share on games, MTX or PS Plus of course some peoples just want to play on console but some peoples will also see that with one PC, they could play the Sony and Microsoft games without the need to buy a console in the end this strategy could see Sony selling less console and making obviously less money.

The best strategy for Sony would be to not release any PS5 games on PC before the end of this generation.
I dont think they will make less money by selling less consoles. Im pretty sure its the exact opposite, because almost all consoles except Nintendo ones are more or less sold at a loss. Removing the console would probably be beneficial economically for Sony as long as they have software & IP that sells.

Edit: I see the creation of Playstation Studios as a first step in this process. They are creating brand recognition that in the long term will be used as the main marketing platform associated to Playstation.
 
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I dont think they will make less money by selling less consoles. Im pretty sure its the exact opposite, because almost all consoles except Nintendo ones are more or less sold at a loss. Removing the console would probably be beneficial economically for Sony as long as they have software & IP that sells.

Edit: I see the creation of Playstation Studios as a first step in this process. They are creating brand recognition that in the long term will be used as the main marketing platform associated to Playstation.
You do realize that Playstation make most of his revenue not from their games their selling on their console but from the share they get from each game that his sell on their console, from MTX or the PS plus. So how they will make more money with selling less consoles ?

The revenue they gets from their games it's nothing when you compare with the other things i said.
 

RaZoR No1

Member
It all boils down to this statement. Personally, I would never want to wait 2 years to play a game when I can just add 399 USD to play it now - my friends are thinking the same. If you are right that gamers are ok to not play games on release the whole equation shifts - and you would be correct. However, to make it clear - I think your statement above is incorrect and that most enthusiast gamers (i.e. those with advanced PC rigs) are not happy about waiting for 2 years to play something that is playable today if they just spend 399 USD more.
As I mentioned too, it depends on the Sony strategy.
If it is clear, that a superior version will be released in 6 months on PC, then they can and will wait, but if Sony randomly releases the games randomly then alot of the PC gamers will still bite and play on PS5.


Of course there will be gamers who will double dip too. First play on PS5 and later on PC
 

skit_data

Member
You do realize that Playstation make most of his revenue not from their games their selling on their console but from the share they get from each game that his sell on their console, from MTX or the PS plus. So how they will make more money with selling less consoles ?

The revenue they gets from their games it's nothing when you compare with the other things i said.
Yes, that is true. I guess they could provide a PSN-client for desktop that could be used in a similar way to Steam and EGS. I still think Sony will continue to sell hardware and I agree that it is a very risky road to travel along. If they are to going that way they need to provide a very well thought out way to make consumers use their service above Steam.
 
The main advantages of unified memory are at dev level, it's easier to use and simplify many things at soft level but also, it simplify the hardware design (that's why it cheapier to use in such case). But you have some bottleneck, for example simply the facts that you share the bandwidth between the GPU and other componants, so the GPU have smaller effective bandwidth that it could have with dedicated memory. The gain you have with quantity of datas shared through memory is not negligible but not as important as many think in fact. You have the bus contention due to componants that request access and use the same memory, and you'll also have the fact that the memory used is GDDR one instead of DDR for example in this case, which is less adapted for CPU usage on paper (which require less possible latencies instead of big bandwidth, but in gaming, don't know if that's really a big deal due to more specific work), etc...
In fact, for dedicated hardware such as game consoles, the advantages of this configuration are stronger than the drawbacks, but that's not a perfect/magical solution.

Very well, I will explain it to on highway. Let's say that GDDR6 is very fast memory, but with bigger latency, which is not exactly suited for handling CPU operations, which tends to be like a small cars on highway, small and fast. (many of them and are latency sensitive) GPU operations are more like trucks, big trucks. Now if you saturate the bandwidth it's not saturated with just those big trucks on highway, but also small cars, so you have to take into consideration what are you try to fit onto highway and what not, because if you don't run CPU code there, you have no game, but if you choose not to run GPU operations, you are missing just something on the screen.

Now there was this talk about NUMA and supercharged architecture with ACE units, to help the CPU. However it was laters discovered that those units are great for some quick fast operations, which you can fit into CPU cache, however the benefit is not that great, when you try to run CPU specific operations which long instruction there, because it tends to be even slower than those old Jaguar cores. It was really close to what SPU was on PS3 CELL. On PS4 there was 8 of them to help each core, on Xbox there was just 2 of them, because like I said previously, MS aren't not fans of short simple code, even in their APIs.

And lastly when you have split pool like on PC, you have place where to do CPU operations, which is on memory pool which is not exactly fast, but it has very little latency and when you need both there are those huge L3 caches on current CPUs. GPU has it's own pool, where it doesn't have to deal with CPU operations. And that's why many times even slower PC performs better (maybe lower details, but higher resolution) than console. Because if you want to squeeze as much as possible, you have to have really tight scheduler. I recommend watching some technical talks about ID Tech 7, because that engine is masterpiece, especially when it comes to this limitation.

Where does this idea that GDDR is inherently higher latency than DDR come from?

I've tried many times to investigate it and I come up short. The underlying technology is still DDR memory cells in both cases, so I don't get where this common theory comes from.

Can either of you elucidate this?
 

Rea

Member
It's really sad to see that some of the Playstation exclusive games are coming to PC and maybe more games in the future. They are destroying the Playstation brand image. If this is going forward, Playstation games won't feel so special, no one's gonna respect PS exclusive games and Playstation console because it's also coming to the PC and Playstation version will always be inferior.
One thing that i love about Nintendo is they care for exclusive, they care for their community, they care for their Nintendo brand image. So, when I bought switch and played Zelda, i felt special because in my heart i knew that, i couldn't enjoy this game on anywhere else, except on switch. So, owning my switch has value and meaningful.

I hope Sony learn this from Nintendo.
 

Garani

Member
You can play the best and cheapest version on PC and the released delay is just a very small issue to those gamers.
Kinda same with the Xbox too.. IMO one of the reason xbox will never overtake playstation..
If you have a decent PC, no need for a Xbox unless you want to have the console environment and the simplicity of the consoles.
For MS it is the same thing, if you play on PC or on Xbox, but is it the same for Sony too?

I have a Ryzen 2600+RX580/8GB+16GB+512GB Sata SSD+1TB Sata HDD with a 22" 1080 monitor. All for a lot more money than a PS5.

Trust me, a PS5 game is still cheaper and I can play it on a 55" 4k screen.
 

FranXico

Member
I am quoting myself, because I was too inside my head and I fucked up one part. It was delivered with reallz non/articulated fashion. Tools™ get better on both systems, however with performance stack, eg. what is behind those API calls, how efficient those calls are, Sony already has a perfect solution pretty much, so there isn't much room to improve.
Isn't there room to further optimize GNMX?
 

FranXico

Member


EDIT: apparently it's showing up because of a "bug" lol

I've seen that kind of store glitches before, and those never happen unless there is an actual change happening.

For example, I've seen some Plus games erroneously showing an option to buy them years ago when I still had the subscription. Last year the option was enabled for any game to convert license, so it stands to reason that was being tested already back then.
 
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