CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Oooh absolutely, understatement of the year. It was all pretty much BS except
HeisenbergFX4
& GitHub, but I thought that game might be real and it sounded interesting.
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Oooh absolutely, understatement of the year. It was all pretty much BS except
HeisenbergFX4
& GitHub, but I thought that game might be real and it sounded interesting.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Yes, he's doing Death Stranding 2 for SeX because it's a complex game.
Tripolygon
Banned
Confirmed by who? All these stuff will be revealed by next year GDC when devs start to talk about their next gen games. Game design is a balancing act mate, even more so on consoles have always been about adjusting your scope within power budget. Want higher frame rate? you lower resolution and other stuff.
pasterpl
Member
might be something offered only for the first party games, and remember (in my theory) this would be only streamed when the actual game installs, so potentially after your first session is finished, the 2nd time you start that game it would run from the local machine.
Re. Data-caps, streaming services usage, digital game sales etc. Suggest that this would not be a massive issue, in addition, if these US companies are really worried about this (data caps) why would they invest in stadia, xCloud, GeForce now etc?
Question was not about the norm but if both can be at absolute max frequency. Answer seems to be no, otherwise he would not be talking about the worst case and throttling when that happens. And yes, that is not the norm. But that was not the question. The talk about frequency is kind of strange. Why is it so hard to run the CPU at 3 GHZ fixed if the Xbox is doing it way above that?
But who cares in the end. I am more interested in the cooling of the PS5 before I buy one.. That will have to be very powerful and hopefully silent. They seem to be way about the efficiency curve on the GPU if 10 percent of power only yields in a couple percent performance..
The Mad Draklor
Member
Not sure if someone already told you, but if you go back to 32:30 on the Road to PS5 video, Cerny talks about how increasing the clockspeed on the GPU also boosts rasterisation and the cache's bandwidth. The reason why Cerny went with a lower CU count because it's easier to full load the GPU that way. And with the higher cache bandwidth, the memory can feed more data to the GPU in less time and the cache scrubbers in tandem with the coherency engines allow new data to flow in without the GPU stalling.
pasterpl
Member
TBiddy
Member
I guess that could be seen as a bad thing, given how we are on a forum to debate... oh wait.
Those idiots who brought core 2 duos should went with high clocked p4. Those idiots who bought the the low clocked 2800ti should got higher clocked 2060 for more performance. Just because mark netburst cerny has to sell his design to the public does not make it correct. Wanna bet the next high end nvidia cards are not low cores super high clocked? It's all PR plain and simple he way over spent on the SSD and there limited budget left for the apu so clock it just short of exploding. It's fine to admit he is wrong here unless your saying nvidia is also wrong lol.
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Ascend
Member
By Cerny AKA Sony? Who else?
BGs
Industry Professional
I'm at 90%.
My family not.
Mom, dad, wife, son,... Everyone's sick. My dad very sick.
Yes, nightmare.
Kusarigama
Member
Stop lying. Present proof with time stamp. You have no idea how smart shift works. You have no idea how PS5 works.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Rip open a 2060 and tell me if it has any cache scrubbers. Find any I/O from any desktop part that contains a DMAC, Kraken decompression chip, and coherency engines like the ones the PS5's I/O has. I'll wait....
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Sadly he hasn't even been back here since the day after the PS5 reveal.
Aceofspades
Banned
The Mad Draklor
Member
Where is this from??
Aceofspades
Banned
yewles1
Member
How does that first sentence apply with two consoles that have the same architecture? And why ignore the CPU on XS being higher speed than PS5? This argument doesn't work, it seems almost as if certain people are trying to say the PS5 is barely more powerful than PS4 Pro or something.
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FranXico
Member
Yep
Evilms
Banned
Rolling_Start
Banned
And that's a really valid question.
But there are some crazy "tech analysis" fuckwits (like me) who promote themselves as authorities (I'm definitely not one) that are churning out misninformation fodder for sites like NeoGaf.
Case in point - this thread:
The PlayStation 5 GPU Will Be Supported By Better Hardware Solutions, In Depth Analysis Suggests
The PlayStation 5 will feature a weaker GPU, compared to the Xbox Series X, but developers continue to praise the console. The raw specs are definitely not painting the whole picture about the new consoles, and a recent in-depth analysis suggests that the Sony next-gen console's GPU will have a...
My feeling looking back at the PS3 is that Sony were on the cusp of a revolution, but weren't able to fully predict the future or detach themselves from the past.
Like PS2, I didn't appreciate it at the time. It might not have ended up setting the agenda for the future, even if it foreshadowed it. But it was a really honest and bold shot at moving graphics forwards.
Interesting point about the Wii - I'd forgotten how much faster its "a-ram" was!
On a different note, I wonder sometimes if Sony aiming so high in terms of performance in the handheld space limited their options for competing in a very family / kid oriented market.
Hawking Radiation
Member
Give it a rest mate.
The developer made certain claims regarding PS5 and how the system would be bottlenecked by the CPU and he stated he would release a video to prove it. People have been waiting and asking for said video and nothing has materialised so far. He has also gone radio silent on these bottleneck claims.
He just signed up to twitter last month. Is working on an Xbox Series X exclusive and has his company plastered all over his twitter page.
It doesn't take a slide rule to figure out this dev is taking part in console wars and the noise surrounding it to further promote his game by making unsubstantiated claims on social media.
ethomaz
Banned
Another denying Cerny words lol
Cerny said both can be 100% at same time... in fact he said most of time that is what happens.
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prinz_valium
Member
He did not.
If he did, It will be easy for you to find a video or quote of it.
And if he did, he would've said something wrong.
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ethomaz
Banned
Nope.
100% CPU and 100% GPU at same time.
CPU 3.5Ghz and GPU at 2.23Ghz at same time.
Of course he did lol
Road of PS5... watch it... you were linked the last page but ignored.
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ZywyPL
Banned
For real - devs say this, devs say that, and I'm yet to actually see any dev to actually say anything about nex-gen consoles personally, by himself...
The SSDs are on the wrong sides - 825MB vs 1TB.
Nickolaidas
Member
Ascend
Member
I'm not going to go through the entire presentation to provide you with a timestamp. Go do that yourself. You claim I have no idea how SmartShift works? The fact that it is a function for laptops already says quite a lot, but let me quote what it is;
AMD SmartShift is a new technology that is being introduced with the new AMD Ryzen 4000 Mobile processor family.
It can be simply described as a smart power distribution technique, to dynamically improve CPU or GPU performance with a limited power budget.
How Does AMD SmartShift Work?
In a typical laptop, the CPU and GPU each have their own pre-defined power budget.
The CPU and GPU will individually adjust their power consumption according to the load, using less power for a longer battery life, but never exceeding their power budget even when there is a need for more performance.
And here's a video as a bonus
In other words, if the GPU is drawing a lot of power, it will hamper the CPU from performing at its max capacity and vice versa. SmartShift is an advantage only when you are comparing it with a system using the exact same power without SmartShift. If you have a system that is allowed to use more power, the one with SmartShift will generally simply lose, because it is by default limited by power constraints.
And remember that the specs that were given for the PS5 were the MAX performance numbers. So SmartShift is already accounted for. It can even be argued that they are painting it as better than it really is, since it will not be able to run at its max GPU speed and CPU speed at the same time.
Tell me again I don't know how smart shift works or how the PS5 works.
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The Mad Draklor
Member
Agreed on that it's dumb. It's a very stupid and simple take.
It's more so if the workload is more GPU intensive, power will be diverted from the CPU to GPU in order for the system to actually execute the workload. Without Smartshift, the GPU will not have enough power to take on the workload while the CPU has more power than it really needs. It also should be noted that laptops usually run at a very low TDP compared to consoles. The Asus Zephyrus G14 has as TDP of 35W iirc. That is what SmartShift is for.
For the PS5, it's a different story because it will have a much higher power draw. Also, power draw and frequency do not tell the whole story. The workload that the CPU and GPU have to work with is what determines the amount of heat production. As long as the workload is within the CPU and GPU's (along with the other custom hardware) capabilities, then both will run at max frequency. However, if the workload is way too high, then that is where the PS5 needs to reduce frequency.
For instance, I can make my 2700x run at 3.7Ghz right now with cpu-freq. Is the CPU fan going crazy because I'm constantly running the CPU at a high frequency? No, because the workload is not intensive. However, if I were to run that 2700x at 3.7Ghz with a CPU-intensive game, then that is where the CPU fan will ramp up.
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prinz_valium
Member
I did and he never said it.
Just stop spreading misinformation.
Just give me the quote or timestamp.
I'll give you $1000 when you found it.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Brad Sams: "Cerny is lying about 5.5 GBps raw speed. My Microsoft programmed brain is not complex enough to understand how we allowed Sony to get a 2.25x advantage in I/O. Hence, it must be a lie."
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Deeper Underground
Member
lol Yeah, no. They are talking about the speed, not the size.
xacto
Member
If they think that's enough for them to win this generation, they haven't learned a thing from the past. Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results... we all know what that is, right?
LordOfChaos
Member
What this is showing is how SmartShift works, which the point of part of the talk was this is decidedly not.
In a worst case scenario with the highest power operations on both the CPU and GPU, a "couple" of percent drop on the clock speed drops power by 10%. They expect it to run at or near the peak most of the time.
It's flipping the idea on its head somewhat. On a PC laptop with Smartshift, you'd have a TDP that the cooler can remove and shared power between the CPU and GPU, if the GPU is being maxed out and the CPU isn't, it would give more of that TDP to the GPU, the cooling being the hard limit. Smartshift isn't running near its peak clocks most of the time, it's an opportunistic TDP user.
The PS5 flips this around by saying the power output is constant, the cooling isn't the bottleneck, and the CPU and GPU are actually capped from going higher because they built the system around a constant power output vs a constant frequency.
Ascend
Member
I already stated that I'm not going to look for it. I don't need nor want your money. The bottom line is that he did say it, but in a sugar-coated kind of way, because, well, he has to sell his inferior console as being equally if not more capable. It's the difference between saying "I ate half your ice cream" and "I left some of your ice cream for you".
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ZywyPL
Banned
Hint: random read/write speed.
ethomaz
Banned
Just to add.
PS5 uses SmartShift to send any unused power from CPU to GPU but it is not used to define which frequencies the CPU/GPU are running.
That is logic is different from SmarShift and any other PC logic and done by a custom Sony logic... it will only use SmartShift if there is non-used power on CPU to send to GPU.
Cerny choose that variable frequency because he wanted to allow devs to take most of the others parts of the GPU if they need... só rasterization, command buffer, L1 & L2 caches, etc are 33% faster than a GPU running at 1850Mhz.
It is easy to devs use 36 parallel CUs than 48 parallel CUs (that was their other option of design)... efficiency is the key here.
He says too the worst case scenario the GPU will run at lower clocks but not that much lower than 2.23Ghz because a coupe of % drop in frequency already saves 10% in power draw.
Any downclock will be pretty minor.
Most of time both CPU and GPU will run at max frequencies.
So the GPU will probably drop between 50-100Mhz to sustain the capped power draw.... maybe in the worst case a bit more like 150-200Mhz but from Cerny words it seems unlikely.
I’m very interested in some games stats to be showed in the future... max, min and avg. frequencies.
Some here thinks the GPU and CPU will heavy dos clock the frequencies that goes against what Cerny said.
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Metroiddarks
Member
Two fanboys of the same console chatting if they only see number then:
XSX GPU> PS5 GPU (a 20% is not huge sorry)
XSX CPU> PS5 CPU (almost the same)
PS5 SDD>>XSX SDD (most of the double)
Ram well will depends in how many left to dev PS5 and in some scenarios should be better one than the other.
Sorry as I believe in Cerny when talks about the PS5 specs I also believe in XSX when say the theoretical limit of its SSD and still the half of the best scenario for PS5.
Also if lockhart exist will exist an impact in the graphics of XSX but even if not the first parties need to make work its games for an old jaguar and very weak gpu of xbox one
for two years.
If you think is not important so why Microsoft put so many money in make and ssd which can be reach around 6 GBs in the best scenario and why is basically the only
feature the dev talk, I don't see dev talking with the new gpus we can do things which looks impossible before (talking for TF raw number) but instead they talk about the
SSD, CPU, Audios chips (in both), technologies in the gpu like VRS, Mesh shaders.
ethomaz
Banned
5.5GB/s is sequential read only that is the fastest (that a SSD can do) and more used in games... you basically don’t change the game assets (write) and the files are already stored in a sequential way to be read.
Write is slower in both consoles than 2.4/5.5GB/s.
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ethomaz
Banned
He did watch it... stop to being lazy.
I made a summary of he said in my previous post btw.
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xacto
Member
Kusarigama
Member
Burden of providing proof lies on you since you are claiming that Cerny said that in that video and Since is did not say that I can't find it in that video.
There is more to smart shift than that, go do your homework better.
icerock
Member
That tweet has nothing on the follow-up
I'm sure you are following the PS5 thread on the other place, it is absolutely hilarious, I'm convinced that bloke 'SPDIF' sent out a beacon on that Discord cliq given how all of them assembled in space of few minutes to champion his post and offer support for what Brad Sams wrote.
Ascend
Member
Oh. So that's how it works. When it is something that you claim, i.e. that there's more to smart shift than that, then suddenly the burden of proof is not on the one making the claim anymore, but I have to go look for it myself? GTFO.
Metroiddarks
Member
That tweet has nothing on the follow-up
I'm sure you are following the PS5 thread on the other place, it is absolutely hilarious, I'm convinced that bloke 'SPDIF' sent out a beacon on that Discord cliq given how all of them assembled in space of few minutes to champion his post and offer support for what Brad Sams wrote.
Actually the Chiron should be a high end PC because you know any game is exclusive for xbox ....
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Gediminas
Banned
That tweet has nothing on the follow-up
I'm sure you are following the PS5 thread on the other place, it is absolutely hilarious, I'm convinced that bloke 'SPDIF' sent out a beacon on that Discord cliq given how all of them assembled in space of few minutes to champion his post and offer support for what Brad Sams wrote.
i went to tweeter and trolled that dumb Brad Sams
Ascend
Member
It really isn't as different as they are advertising it to be. In both cases (laptops and PS5), a certain max power consumption target is given (like 45W for example), and the frequency is allowed to go wild up to those power consumption targets. Those limits are determined by real factors like max cooler size and heat output. But minimum voltages also play a role here, and the higher you go in frequency, the more voltage you will need. So you'll need to cap the frequency to not start burning things. That's the way they know exactly how to design the cooler and what power envelop is allowed. The difference is that in laptops temperature is set as the limiting factor, while in the PS5 it's the workload.
Has anyone here used WattMan? Or Afterburner? You can do the same thing with your graphics card. You set your fan at X speed, you say you want to reach max 70 °C for example, and then let the graphics card run wild. The clocks will be 'floating' to give you the max performance at the limits you have set. Or instead of the max temperature, you simply lower the power limit. Then you can tweak the voltages to try and squeeze more frequency out of it. But instead of manually, this is done automatically on the PS5. This doesn't mean that you wouldn't be better off simply removing the power limit, if we're talking pure performance.
Lastly, the workload being the limiting factor is technically a translation of heat and temperature. And what do I mean by that? A certain workload is expected to have a certain power draw, which correlates with a certain amount of heat production and thus a certain temperature output. You then set a certain limit considering the cooler you have. This data has likely been put in some sort of working tables for the chip, and the GPU/CPU works in the same way without needing temperature sensors and control system. It's a cost saving measure, because the temperature method will generally be more efficient, provided the sensor is working correctly.
Really... I do not see how all of this is a big deal.
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