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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Feb 25, 2020
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We just have to wait and see when the games are here.

I just have a hard time believing PS5 will load the games 1000% faster.
Don't get me wrong, me too. In the converence Cerny showed how SSDs have bottlenecks and that with PS5 he achieved an actual speed increase in games on par with the speed of the SSD, because he eliminated the bottlenecks. But that's a hell of a statement, if anything it's not an assumption by fans, this is what Cerny said, still a hell of a statement.
 

nosseman

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Then why didn't they? I can't stress that enough, if you want to show what your machine can do, you show your best case scenario just like Sony did on that Spiderman demo.
Perhaps it was for different audiences?

MS video was for gamers - since its a public video - and shows how fast a existing game load from menu.

Sonys video - well its not even Sonys video - its a cellphone video from a investor presentation where Sony showed future tech.

Here is the presentation from Sony: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/irday/pdf/2019/GNS_E.pdf
 
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Neo Blaster

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Perhaps it was for different audiences?

MS video was for gamers - since its a public video - and shows how fast a existing game load from menu.

Sonys video - well its not even Sonys video - its a cellphone video from a investor presentation where Sony showed future tech.

Here is the presentation from Sony: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/irday/pdf/2019/GNS_E.pdf
And do you think their main audience wouldn't be interested in how blazing fast the game loads? Now you're stretching.
 
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Jun 26, 2013
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Note that he made it clear that we should expect roughly 8 to 9 GB/s as typical. 22 GB/s is a theoretical maximum.
8 to 9 GB/s is referring to the amount of data after typical decompression. This is if developers don't spend any time optimizing the Kraken compression. But if they want to refine the compression, then they can do that and improve the rate up to 22 GB/s.
 
Feb 25, 2020
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No, he did not say that at all.

That just a strawman you have created to poke me because you dont like what you are listening :)
Fair to say we have no idea how much time we can expect these 22 GB/s, as far as we know could be 1% of the time. According to him, this happens in "ideal conditions" which doesn't sound that likely during development, but who knows...
 

FeiRR

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time stamped


df says thats the standard sod2 Xonex version without any velocity architecture improvements in the game code.
This nicely shows how full of shit DF are. The timer stops at 8.5 sec while you can see that the last pop-ins and shadows load fully around the 16 sec mark, which is almost double that.
Microsoft, however, actually have invented some game-changing technology.
[...]
In fact, Microsoft are basically the leaders in terms of simultaneous multi-platform software development.
I think I have a deja vu. "We invented DirectX" and other bold statements of the previous generation change.

As far as Microsoft's "leadership" in multi-platform development goes, e.g. they totally failed at migrating their OS to ARM architecture and I think it's even been discontinued. I don't claim they make no progress but if you have at least a vague idea how large corporations operate, you know that being a market leader and cutting-edge innovative is a very rare case. There's no point in investing in R&D extensively if you dominate the market and your shareholders are happy with the cash you make.
 

Kusarigama

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Yeah , but that was obviously not what they demo:ed.

First they showed PS4 Pro and how long it takes when you instantly teleport to another location and have to load x% new assets and that takes 8 seconds. (Remember that PS4 Pro use a mechanical HD)
Then they showed the next generation (PS5) and that takes 0,8 seconds.

They also stress how much faster PS5 is by keep teleporting around the map (I count 6 locations on the PS5 and 1 on PS4 Pro).

Then they show the difference again but instead of teleporting around the map they zoom thorough it at great speed. The PS4 Pro start to slow down and stop sometimes while PS5 keep on zooming though the level at high speed.

Also - again - Sony used a special case. Special version of the game just to show how fast they can load/stream new assets to the game. MS used a existing unoptimized game just to show how long it would take to load a "normal" game on Series X.

Sony has fast SSD and special hardware to stream stuff from the HD. MS has fast SSD and special hardware to stream stuff from the HD.

Sonys solution is 100% faster but not 1000% faster as some people try to make it out like by comparing those videos.

If MS made a custom demo where they did the same thing in State of Decay it would probably take 1,6 seconds.
Read the 1st wired article. Loading time on PS4 Pro was 15second and Low speed early PS5 dev kit had 0.8 seconds. The writer also writes about jetting through the city.

Do not confuse betwen percentages and 'x' number of times faster.

Percentages wise PS5 ssd is 10,000% faster than PS4 hdd. While in other terms the PS5 ssd is 100 'times' faster than PS4 hdd. 5.5GB/s or 5500MB/s and 0.05GB/s or 50MB/s.
 

FranXico

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No, he did not say that at all.

That just a strawman you have created to poke me because you dont like what you are listening :)
Maybe "theoretical maximum" was bad wording, but it very much is for a best case scenario. Even the typical ballpark figure is already excellent.

And I liked most of what I listened to, friend. I plan on getting a PS5.
 
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Feb 25, 2020
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Read the 1st wired article. Loading time on PS4 Pro was 15second and Low speed early PS5 dev kit had 0.8 seconds. The writer also writes about jetting through the city.

Do not confuse betwen percentages and 'x' number of times faster.

Percentages wise PS5 ssd is 10,000% faster than PS4 hdd. While in other terms the PS5 ssd is 100 'times' faster than PS4 hdd. 5.5GB/s or 5500MB/s and 0.05GB/s or 50MB/s.
It was 8 secs, not 15. Edit: unless Wired didn't infact told differently, that would be a bit of a mess.
 
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BluRayHiDef

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Is anyone not contemplative about the idea that the PS5 will be able to stream data quickly enough to enable a player to run through an environment as...The Flash or Quicksilver?

EDIT:

Just yesterday, I was thinking that now Super-Man game can be made without having to compromise his flying ability.
I guess someone is contemplative about this idea. I hope that Sony makes a deal with WB to make a game about The Flash or Superman.
 
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Feb 25, 2020
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Is anyone not contemplative about the idea that the PS5 will be able to stream data quickly enough to enable a player to run through an environment as...The Flash or Quicksilver?
It really depends on how you do it.
In a city? It would be useless, I wouldn't be able to see what I'm doing and crash on a building istantly, which would mean stopping every half a second onto something.
On an open field could be more interesting, but very fast movement in itself it's not what I find very compelling unless devs don't find a really strategic and tuned way to use it to show me how fantastic it can be.
 

BluRayHiDef

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It really depends on how you do it.
In a city? It would be useless, I wouldn't be able to see what I'm doing and crash on a building istantly, which would mean stopping every half a second onto something.
On an open field could be more interesting, but very fast movement in itself it's not what I find very compelling unless devs don't find a really strategic and tuned way to use it to show me how fantastic it can be.
The running mechanic, when running at super speed, can be partially automated such that prior to running, the player can select or create a route to their destination. Then, when they actually run at super speed, the character would automatically traverse the route BUT the player would have to hit a button on the D-pad when they reach an intersection with perfect timing , which would be the aspect of the super-speed running mechanic that will require skill from the player. Furthermore, the player would have to hit one of the action buttons (triangle, square, cross, and circle) when they're about to crash into something or someone. Sounds awesome, doesn't it?
 
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Feb 25, 2020
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The running mechanic, when running at super speed, can be partially automated such that prior to running, the player can select or create a route to their destination. Then, when they actually run at super speed, the character would automatically traverse the route BUT the player would have to hit a button on the D-pad when they reach an intersection with perfect timing , which would be the aspect of the super-speed running mechanic that will require skill from the player. Furthermore, the player would have to hit one of the action buttons (triangle, square, cross, and circle) when they're about to crash into something or someone. Sounds awesome, doesn't it?
Actually, yes. Could be a new way of interactive fast travel, as some RPGs put encounters and let you set conditions instead of just a loading screen.
 
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HawarMiran

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I am just glad Sony tries unorthodox stuff again with a lot of thought put into it. Consoles getting to close to being PCs was worrisome. A PC does many things and a console should be focused on gaming and how to enhance that with the hard and software. So asking devs what they need and want and building up on that is very intriguing. Let it be summer already. I want to see the stuff that runs on these monsters :messenger_weary:
 

BluRayHiDef

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I am just glad Sony tries unorthodox stuff again with a lot of thought put into it. Consoles getting to close to being PCs was worrisome. A PC does many things and a console should be focused on gaming and how to enhance that with the hard and software. So asking devs what they need and want and building up on that is very intriguing. Let it be summer already. I want to see the stuff that runs on these monsters :messenger_weary:
Yes, the wait is painful. I can't wait to see what the PS5 looks like and what it performs like.
 

INCUBASE

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If it's under £400 and the a decent list of ps5 games, the underpowered console would be enough to bite at that price.

Sure xbox maybe more powerful but I have a decent pc, so xbox isnt even an option.

Kz2 remaster would be enough for a day 1
 
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saintjules

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And there you have it: another power battle lost for the Sony Defence Force! No games gonna use more than 10Gb of RAM next gen, an actual dev:


And don't even try to debate it: if by any means, by any unlikely remote chance of that happening in a game ... Xbox 10GB RAM is actually like 30 GB with SFS!

Why do they ALWAYS hide behind Anime Avatars? Am I missing something?
 
Feb 25, 2020
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What do you mean there?
Wired article reported 15second to 0.8second improvement.
It must have been a different load point in game.
Maybe it was a different version, maybe it was a different load point, no idea.
Interesting enough: both loaded at 0.8 seconds on PS5, so in one occasion PS5 seems to be proportionally faster, or rather PS4 was slower. It is specified if was vs Pro by Wired?
 
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INCUBASE

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1440p? Pretty sure they could remaster Killzone 2 at 8K 120 fps on PS5 if they wanted, for sure they can hit 4K 60 fps.
That shooting was so good...
well 1440p and 120fps then, whatever, im not greedy, a locked 60fps is a enough for me

a proper remaster, like bluepoint would do
 
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Feb 25, 2020
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well 1440p and 120fps then, whatever, im not greedy, a locked 60fps is a enough for me

a proper remaster, like bluepoint would do
60 fps wouldn't fix the input lag anyway, it would be more fluid, that for sure. If there will be a remaster I always hope they do a deeper job than simply upscaling shit.
 

Kusarigama

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Maybe it was a different version, maybe it was a different load point, no idea.
Interesting enough: both loaded at 0.8 seconds on PS5, so in one occasion PS5 seems to be proportionally faster, or rather PS4 was slower. It is specified if was vs Pro by Wired?
Yes, Wired article specified PS4 Pro and PS5 dev kit being an early "low-speed" version.
May be 0.8 second is time time required for the screen transition, which Mark Cerny did mention in the Road to PS5 video as the loading times are so small that the screen fading in and out would be more than enough for it.

I would also like to point out that Mark Cerny aimed at completely eliminating loading screens from games where as MS aim was to reduce load times.
 
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Jun 26, 2013
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I am just glad Sony tries unorthodox stuff again with a lot of thought put into it. Consoles getting to close to being PCs was worrisome. A PC does many things and a console should be focused on gaming and how to enhance that with the hard and software. So asking devs what they need and want and building up on that is very intriguing. Let it be summer already. I want to see the stuff that runs on these monsters :messenger_weary:
Cerny's talk about the bottlenecks during the storage-to-memory process was pretty enlightening. I didn't realize there were that many potential bottlenecks such as memory mapping, coherency, and check-in. And trying to learn about what each step does, it makes a whole lot of sense. The GPU and CPU can only perform as well as the data transfer speed. If they aren't fed new data fast enough, they will stall.

This also applies to the memory-to-cache process. P psorcerer 's breakdown on the GPU cache scrubbers is a huge deal as the GPU doesn't need to clear up the entire cache, just the parts that need to be reloaded. And because the PS5's GPU runs at such a high clockspeed, that also boosts the L2/L3 cache bandwidth. The XSX uses a different approach by improving the precision of storage-to-memory transfer with SFS so that the GPU isn't fed with a lot of unneeded data. The XSX's GPU does not have cache scrubbers, but it does have more CUs to do calculations.
 

ph33rknot

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How do you know that it wasn't being rendered? A gaming system doesn't just stream data and display it on a screen as if it's streaming a movie; it streams instructions and renders imagery based on those instructions in real time. That's what the PS5 was doing.
I ment spidy's not even on screen
 
Feb 25, 2020
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Yes, Wired article specified PS4 Pro and PS5 dev kit being an early "low-speed" version.
May be 0.8 second is time time required for the screen transition, which Mark Cerny did mention in the Road to PS5 video as the loading times are so small that the screen fading in and out would be more than enough for it.

I would also like to point out that Mark Cerny aimed at completely eliminating loading screens from games where as MS aim was to reduce load times.
Yes, I'm just asking myself why the two sources reports are different results and which is the more realistic.
Maybe 0.8 is the lowest possible result from Spiderman considering that both, regardless of comparing from 15 or 8, loaded in 0.8 seconds.
 
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ethomaz

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And there you have it: another power battle lost for the Sony Defence Force! No games gonna use more than 10Gb of RAM next gen, an actual dev:


And don't even try to debate it: if by any means, by any unlikely remote chance of that happening in a game ... Xbox 10GB RAM is actually like 30 GB with SFS!

That not how Sampler Feedback works lol
It is a hardware feature (so PS5 hast it too) that now MS added to API that allow devs to capture and record texture sampling info and locations via hardware.

You still needs new texture loaded on VRAM like usual.

It is a feature to reuse textures.
 
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Neo Blaster

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are you sure PS4 spiderman without a patch will load in 0.8sec...who is stretching ?
Who said it wasn't patched? Of course it was optimized, and SoD2 was obviously not, hence MS lost a perfect opportunity to show their SSD/IO solution at its best.
 
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Somebody else last page already quoted it for you... so pay him.

We have a new GAFer millionaire.
LMAO
We continually run the CPU and GPU in boost mode
How is that "we run the GPU and GPU at 100% max frequency at the same time"?
Guess what. Every CPU and GPU runs in boost mode all the time. But they don't even hit 100% all the time if they have a single power and thermal budget.
The Ps5 has a shared power budget between the CPU and GPU.

My offer still stands and I can upgrade it to $1 billion if you want.
Some people in here have zero reading comprehension
 

BluRayHiDef

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LMAO


How is that "we run the GPU and GPU at 100% max frequency at the same time"?
Guess what. Every CPU and GPU runs in boost mode all the time. But they don't even hit 100% all the time if they have a single power and thermal budget.
The Ps5 has a shared power budget between the CPU and GPU.

My offer still stands and I can upgrade it to $1 billion if you want.
Some people in here have zero reading comprehension
Cerny also said that he expects the GPU to run at or near 2.23Ghz most of the time and under most loads.
 
Jun 26, 2013
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That not how Sampler Feedback works lol
It is a hardware feature (so PS5 hast it too) that now MS added to API that allow devs to capture and record texture sampling info and locations via hardware.

You still needs new texture loaded on VRAM like usual.

It is a feature to reuse textures.
If I have this correctly, SFS is a memory management feature that reduces the amount of unneeded data transferred from storage to memory. And yes, the PS5 also implements measures that addresses this step in the transfer process in two ways. The first is the flash controller giving developers 6 levels of priority. Rather than trying to load everything at once, they can prioritize which type of data is transferred first. This is not as granular as SFS. The second measure is the coherency engine. Eurogamer describes it as a housecleaner which is similar to what SFS does. It cleans out the data that the system does not need to calculate.

Also, the XSX's GPU has to evict the entire cache if it wants to be fed new data because it lacks cache scrubbers. In contrast, the PS5's coherency engine works in tandem with the GPU cache scrubbers to only evict parts of the cache and load new data in place of those evictions.

How is that "we run the GPU and GPU at 100% max frequency at the same time"?
Guess what. Every CPU and GPU runs in boost mode all the time. But they don't even hit 100% all the time if they have a single power and thermal budget.
The Ps5 has a shared power budget between the CPU and GPU.

My offer still stands and I can upgrade it to $1 billion if you want.
Some people in here have zero reading comprehension
Both can easily run at 100% at the same time.

Right now, I just set my 2700x frequency to 3.7 GHz via cpu-freq. Is it running hot because I set it at its highest possible frequency? No, because it's running at 3.7Ghz under extremely light workload. However, if I were to boot up an intensive game, the CPU fan ramps up in response to the higher heat output because the CPU will be running under a more intensive workload.

The same idea applies to the CPU and GPU on the PS5. They both can easily run at max frequency as long as the workload does not cause the system to output more heat than the cooling system can handle. The worst case scenario Cerny mentioned during his talk is if the workload does cause the CPU and GPU to produce too much heat. That's when the system will reduce the frequency by 2% to draw 10% less power so that the heat production is put under control.
 
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SonGoku

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James Sawyer Ford James Sawyer Ford just caught up to the the PS5 thread on reee, moderation over there is truly embarrassing. Some of the bans starting with platocplx all the way to page 168 are just... is that their idea of instilling respect and authority?

Was fun seeing how nib called dictator on his bs, he clearly fucked up and is now backtracking which is made so obvious here:


 

ethomaz

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LMAO


How is that "we run the GPU and GPU at 100% max frequency at the same time"?
Guess what. Every CPU and GPU runs in boost mode all the time. But they don't even hit 100% all the time if they have a single power and thermal budget.
The Ps5 has a shared power budget between the CPU and GPU.

My offer still stands and I can upgrade it to $1 billion if you want.
Some people in here have zero reading comprehension
Moving goal post already from never running both at max frequency to it doesn’t run both at max frequency all the time lol
 

Rusco Da Vino

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Fair to say we have no idea how much time we can expect these 22 GB/s, as far as we know could be 1% of the time. According to him, this happens in "ideal conditions" which doesn't sound that likely during development, but who knows...
What we know, because Mark Cerny confirmed so, is that there is a "custom decompression unit built in the I/O which is capable of handling up tp 22gb/s is the data is particularly well compressed"

We also know how the XSX SDD performs with simplistic & low resolution textures games.



PS: Please note that there is no trace of DX12 Ultimate fantasies in there☝ :)
 
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HawarMiran

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James Sawyer Ford James Sawyer Ford just caught up to the the PS5 thread on reee, moderation over there is truly embarrassing. Some of the bans starting with platocplx all the way to page 168 are just... is that their idea of instilling respect and authority?

Was fun seeing how nib called dictator on his bs, he clearly fucked up and is now backtracking which is made so obvious here:


the blatant lies hahaha. "It Is NoT WhAt I sAiD GuYs". You dumb fuck, your post is still there for all to see :messenger_tears_of_joy: . If you gonna talk like an expert on this matter and get schooled by an expert, you should be man enough to admit you were talking out of your ass and shut the fuck up. That is my BeSpOkE opinion on it
 

Imtjnotu

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And that's fair enough. For me, based on Microsoft's spec, and nVidia and AMD's releases on the DX12 Ultimate utilisation, I'm more inclined to believe their claims - AMD and nVidia both quite literally spent millions building hardware for it.

I actually highlighted Sony's potential to replicate SFS. As you keenly pointed out - hardware is foundational. Microsoft's APU design incorporates hardware specially designed for DX12U implementation. That includes the CU count and the optimal VRAM speeds. Sony will be hard-pressed to replicate Microsoft's patented technology's performance using hardware that wasn't designed for the same technology. As for Kraken, it's a third party solution designed for general purpose compression. It's good stuff, no question. Let's ignore that your 22gb/s figure doesn't match Cerny's own presentation, which touted the SSD as moving around 9gb/s compressed. Microsoft invented a new compression system called BCPack. This system was specially designed for texture compression - textures, as I highlighted in my original post, are the vast majority of a game's assets - and can reportedbly outpace Kraken for texture compression. Combined with SFS, the amount of texture data that would clog the IO throughput of Sony's custom-built SSD would shrink significantly, freeing up Microsoft's IO throughput for... well, everything else. Combined with Microsoft's optimal VRAM configuration, and they have a distinct edge in loading, storing, recalling, and rendering texture data. Sony didn't bother trying to outpace Kraken, their hardware wasn't designed for SFS, and Microsoft own both pieces of technology. Sony's hardware is well designed, no questions there, but Microsoft's software engineers are the best in the world; I wouldn't discount their efforts so easily.
Road to PS5. 17:50 minute mark.

"but the unit itself is capable of outputting as much as 22G/bps if the data had compressed particularly well"