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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Neferlotus

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I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.

The following information is taken from ”Moore’s law is dead” youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.

The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.







Leaked images and info:

His Info from comment sections:

 
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xacto

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So whats your point? "But, some games will be exclusive to next-gen!!!" My original point still stands, there's a reason games don't require 2080TIs or super-fast SSDs to run, there's a demographic, your casual game doesn't have that hardware. So yes, big publishers will wait till SSDs become the standard
So basically, you're THAT PC gamer who a few years back used to make fun of consoles, riding that "PC master race" wave and now, when the tables are turned you're trying to tell everyone who's listening to you that next-gen consoles won't be used to their capacity just because you have a HDD in your PC?

Do you even consider this to be a valid argument? Oh I agree there will be a world of hurt out there when these consoles come out but that's called "technological evolution."

According to your logic, we shouldn't have improved hardware yet because you cannot afford it yet. Is that it?
 

mitchman

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Do you even know what those things are? Even the Xbox One has DMA. You really think the XSX will not?
Yes, and Xbox One did not have direct read from disk into texture memory, with targetted cache invalidation to avoid invalidating the whole cache for any read. That quote is sufficiently vague to not really say much at all. A lot subsystems can have DMA, but there is nothing in the article mentioned disk access.
As for cache scrubbing... I'll leave this here, and let people themselves draw conclusion on what the influence is on performance... And whether it really is some fancy PS5 only tech...

No, it's not new tech in general, but find any other system having it as a bottleneck reduction feature for disk reads of textures, and the link will be relevant.
 
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mitchman

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star citizen a game designed for ssd loads in 1minute+ on ssd vs 2minute+ on hdd. It might load in 1.4 seconds on ps5. And 1minute+ at least on pc.
Yes, if you completely ignore the overhead of reads on PC vs. the removal of overhead on the PS5. We have plenty of information available and witnesses saying that the difference is significant.
 
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Tetragrammaton_Knight

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I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.

The following information is taken from ”Moore’s law is dead” youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.

In one of his more recent videos he dropped ”low key” leaked images during a coupe of second of PS5 APU and SSD that he has recived from his sources. Here we can see who is developing PS5 SSD controller. The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.







Leaked images and info:

His Info from comment sections:

The "leaked" APU image is a PS4 PRO chip. Can be seen here for example: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/55312/ps4-pro-runs-hot-enough-cook-egg/index.html

Also, I watched a lot of videos by Moore's Law Is Dead and although he does have some credible sources (posted numerous leaks that eventually came true), his "analysis" of the leaked and factual data leaves much to be desired. Unfortunately, he is not an engineer or developer and sometimes his conclusions are borderline to incompetent.
 

Fafalada

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On the HDD, files are duplicated to reduce seek times.
Yes - so you can read them sequentially. I missed the part where you explained that defeated the purpose on SSD, which is true - packing stuff into 10s of megabyte blobs would be a big waste on SSD.

That said - it won't be 4KB block access either - we have no practical use for that kind of granularity for game-assets. I'd expect something on GPU page-size boundaries will be smallest we'll see (64KB or thereabouts) +/- the compression variance - which should get closer to peak speeds even on PC (and the gap to mechanical drives doing the same remains in multiple-orders of magnitude).
Actually even 4KB might work given the custom hardware and APIs the console bring to the table - I get over 2.5GB/s on my M2 drive with 4KB accesses if I throw the whole CPU@4.6Ghz at it.
 
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mitchman

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Again, exactly as i have been saying, PS5 exclusives will really make use of it. Multiplats however, not as much.
I believe this will not be the case. Multiplatforms will also use it as it's basically "free" and they will not need to deal with streaming and asset management to the degree they need to on other platforms. The SSD-to-GPU memory API on the PS5 is basically got request a range of asset IDs and where to map them, aka what low res textures to replace, and it's done automatically and really really fast. It would be strange to not use something so that is so easy to use.
 

FranXico

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That Moore's Law is Dead picture... I could swear I saw it before...

I think I found another photo at a slightly different angle.

That's a PS4 Pro APU.

Now, the fact that both have the same amount of CUs makes it difficult to be sure, but it looks identical to the other photo to me.
 
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ethomaz

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They have incentive to release early on because there's less competition and besides they have to begin development of next gen only games 2-3 years in advance so by the time consoles launch 3rd party AAA will already be deep in development of next gen only games. Falling behind next gen development can end up hurting profits


Has been the case for PS4 & Pro



The idea of disabling CUs in perfect APUs is to be at parity with the APUs with defects thus increasing yields
The way CUs are grouped in RDNA in WGPs is that if 1 CU has defects the entire WGP is disabled (2CUs) and since both SEs/SAs must have the same number of working WGPs/CUs a perfect WGP (2CUs) must be disabled on the adjacent SE/SA.

You taught me all this when RDNA was first revealed lol
Yeap but somebody showed a example of Radeon where it was not disabled form each SE (SA didn’t exists in GCN)... so I was wrong and we continue looking for more example and found out it doesn’t need to be balanced at all.
But the DCU continue being true I guess.

For example PS has 5WGP in each SA.
You can disable only 2WGP (4 CUs) that means:

5 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 18WGP

So you will have two SA with 5WGP and 2 with 4WGP.

So it doesn’t need to be balanced that gives us the chance for:

5 + 5 + 5 + 3 = 18WGP

So the defect can be in a single SA.
I guess the AMD Dispatcher/Scheduled send the workload based in how may WGP there is enabled in a SA.

Edit - Fixed PS5.
 
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M1chl

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That Moore's Law is Dead picture... I could swear I saw it before...

I think I found another photo at a slightly different angle.

That's a PS4 Pro APU.

Now, the fact that both have 36 CUs makes it difficult to be sure, but it looks identical to the other photo to me.
Also why does memory chips missing?
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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That Moore's Law is Dead picture... I could swear I saw it before...

I think I found another photo at a slightly different angle.

That's a PS4 Pro APU.

Now, the fact that both have 36 CUs makes it difficult to be sure, but it looks identical to the other photo to me.
Here is the exact picture from a 2016 article I found: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/55032/ps4-pro-held-back-jaguar-cpu-heres-proof/index.html

Also why does memory chips missing?
They are on the other side since the number of chips were halved on PS4 with the C-Chassis revision.
 
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OSC

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I’m not a game developer (just a dev) but history has shown us the need for RAM increases 16X time every generation. This is impossible with the current trend in RAM technology evolution but, c‘mon, 4GB more than the XOX?
Ram increased from 512MB to 8GB from ps3 to ps4. But originally the ps4 was going to be 4GB.

That said the fast ssds appear critical to mitigate the issue of smaller ram jump.
 

mitchman

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I’m not a game developer (just a dev) but history has shown us the need for RAM increases 16X time every generation. This is impossible with the current trend in RAM technology evolution but, c‘mon, 4GB more than the XOX?
Yes, with traditional disk systems, that was the case as resolution increases mandates higher resolution textures. With the PS5 disk system in particular, you can still have high resolution textures, and load them on demand, significantly reducing the RAM requirements.
 
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M1chl

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Here is the exact picture from a 2016 article I found: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/55032/ps4-pro-held-back-jaguar-cpu-heres-proof/index.html



They are on the other side since the number of chips were halved on PS4 with the C-Chassis revision.
HMMM...I though that these are regular BGA chips and well this is unusual design, because with how many layers Motherboards have, you almost never have such traces in there, if the pads are on the other side of the PCB. I have done, up-to 4 layers PCB (controller stuff, for certain things, like elevator logic and that sort of thing. Nothing fancy.) and this I would only use with double sided/2-layer PCB.

Anyway good find, seems like another "insider".
 
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ethomaz

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But that example only had 1 SE?
Nope 2 SE 4SA.
You have SA with more CUs than others.

RX 5700 is the example that perfectly match PS5.

Now about the DCU it is hard to say because the DCU is really new and you can’t find anything similar in old GCN.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

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That Moore's Law is Dead picture... I could swear I saw it before...

I think I found another photo at a slightly different angle.

That's a PS4 Pro APU.

Now, the fact that both have the same amount of CUs makes it difficult to be sure, but it looks identical to the other photo to me.
I am checking the original source and MOORES LAW IS DEAD is just talking about of having info about who is making the SSD Controller (Marvell).
 
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Neferlotus

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Here is the exact picture from a 2016 article I found: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/55032/ps4-pro-held-back-jaguar-cpu-heres-proof/index.html



They are on the other side since the number of chips were halved on PS4 with the C-Chassis revision.
Good find! I want to add that the only picture Moore’s law is dead has put text on to was the SSD picture. The APU picture was my own guess (he did not say himself it is PS5 APU) and it seems to be incorrect. Again good find and I hope that clarifies this.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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I have checked the oroginal source and he is only talking about the SSD Controller.

You are right.


I am checking the original source and MOORES LAW IS DEAD is just talking about to have info about the SDD Controller. I dont know from where the APU pic comes from.
Good find! I want to add that the only picture Moore’s law is dead has put text on to was the SSD picture. The APU picture was my own guess (he did not say himself it is PS5 APU) and it seems to be incorrect. Again good find and I hope that clarifies this.

No probs. I was just going by the picture posted and the text said it was the PS5 APU. For the SSD again I would question why it looks like a PC/laptop part complete with screw! Surely these consoles built-in SSD will be soldered direct to the motherboard...?
 

SonGoku

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Nope 2 SE 4SA.
You have SA with more CUs than others.

RX 5700 is the example that perfectly match PS5.

Now about the DCU it is hard to say because the DCU is really new and you can’t find anything similar in old GCN.
Would you mind posting a link to the example where SEs aren't balanced
 
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ksdixon

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Oh no! Marvel's WiFi and Bluetooth signal reciever components fucking suck! (See: Microsoft's Surface products)

I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.

The following information is taken from ”Moore’s law is dead” youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.

In one of his more recent videos he dropped ”low key” leaked images during a coupe of second of PS5 APU and SSD that he has recived from his sources. Here we can see who is developing PS5 SSD controller. The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.







Leaked images and info:

His Info from comment sections:

 
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Ascend

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I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.

The following information is taken from ”Moore’s law is dead” youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.

In one of his more recent videos he dropped ”low key” leaked images during a coupe of second of PS5 APU and SSD that he has recived from his sources. Here we can see who is developing PS5 SSD controller. The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.







Leaked images and info:

His Info from comment sections:

That's a great compilation. It has great info too. But I find it suspect that there is zero mention of certain things, like BCPack. Because some developers believe it will outperform Kraken;



Here's a compilation of the tweets;

As for the Xbox getting issues with resolution due to the 'segmented' RAM, that's the typical response of devs throwing everything at the console without thought of any optimization. MS really is not that stupid. It would have been easier AND cheaper to simply pack 8 RAM chips of 2GB on the console, rather than 6 RAM chips of 2GB + 4 RAM chips of 1GB. Not to mention that if you're exceeding 8GB of RAM usage right now (let alone 10GB), you're simply doing things inefficiently. And, the way it was worded, "will have problems", indicates that the statement was made with no hands-on, but more as a presumption.
 
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DrKeo

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Yeap but somebody showed a example of Radeon where it was not disabled form each SE (SA didn’t exists in GCN)... so I was wrong and we continue looking for more example and found out it doesn’t need to be balanced at all.
But the DCU continue being true I guess.

For example PS4 has 5WGP in each SA.
You can disable only 2WGP (4 CUs) that means:

5 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 18WGP

So you will have two SA with 5WGP and 2 with 4WGP.

So it doesn’t need to be balanced that gives us the chance for:

5 + 5 + 5 + 3 = 18WGP

So the defect can be in a single SA.
I guess the AMD Dispatcher/Scheduled send the workload based in how may WGP there is enabled in a SA.
1) SAs don't have to be balanced, just the SEs have to. Matter of fact, SAs aren't balanced in any RDNA GPU except for the 5700 XT.
2) PS4 doesn't have any WGPs because it's not RDNA and WGP is a new thing that only exists in the RDNA architecture.

Your whole PS4 understanding is way off. GCN 2.0 which PS4 is based on has individual CUs, not WGPs. On PS4, all you needed was to disable 2 CUs because it had two SEs, one in each SE. The Pro had 4 SEs, so they needed to disable 4 CUs, one in each. The big difference between that and RDNA is that now RDNA has WGPs instead of individual CUs, so now a grouping of two CUs have to be disabled every time you disable a CU. That's why on GCN you had to disable 1 CU per SE and in RDNA you need to disable 2 CUs per SE.
 
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TearInto5th

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This is pretty interesting, obviously all speculation. Based on how Cerny explained at the GDC talk that it's generally Sony and Microsoft that push these features into AMDs chipsets and not just AMD themselves.

If Sony has got some features that are only present on the upcoming RDNA 3, this could be pretty awesome, especially if it's just a feature that only Sony wanted, this is what's making this upcoming gen so interesting to talk about.
 

BattleScar

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That's a great compilation. It has great info too. But I find it suspect that there is zero mention of certain things, like BCPack. Because some developers believe it will outperform Kraken;



Here's a compilation of the tweets;

As for the Xbox getting issues with resolution due to the 'segmented' RAM, that's the typical response of devs throwing everything at the console without thought of any optimization. MS really is not that stupid. It would have been easier AND cheaper to simply pack 8 RAM chips of 2GB on the console, rather than 6 RAM chips of 2GB + 4 RAM chips of 1GB. Not to mention that if you're exceeding 8GB of RAM usage right now (let alone 10GB), you're simply doing things inefficiently. And, the way it was worded, "will have problems", indicates that the statement was made with no hands-on, but is more a presumption.
With a 50% compression ratio and 2.5GB/s bandwidth the XSX can stream at most 5GB of texture data per second.
This is still slower than the PS5's RAW, uncompressed bandwidth of 5.5GB/s.
With a 25% compression ratio and 5.5GB/s bandwidth, the PS5 will be able to stream at most 7.3GB of texture data per second.

Unless Microsoft have some ridiculous magic compression, they simply cannot overcome a raw 125% bandwidth advantage. And that's ignoring the fact that Sony too, can utilise compression,.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

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Moores Law Is Dead

I have checked the original source and it is FALSE he claims to have images from the PS5 APU or SSD Controller.

He only claim to know that Marvell is making the PS5 SDD Controller. That is all.

Important:
The pics used in the video are placeholders, for reference only.



Source: (timestamped)

 
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Uzupedro

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Neferlotus

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Moores Law Is Dead

I have checked the original source and it is FALSE he claims to have images from the PS5 APU or SSD Controller.

He only claim to know that he knows that Marvell is making the PS5 SDD Controller. That is all.



Source: (timestamped)

My assumption that it is was a leaked image comes from a comment he liked from a user that claimed he leaked SSD image and that he put text on it saying ”Exclusive”. It is in the first picture I posted. All the comments are from his videos. Apperantly as you have verified it was just the manufacturer that he leaked and not an image.
 

ethomaz

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1) SAs don't have to be balanced, just the SEs have to. Matter of fact, SAs aren't balanced in any RDNA GPU except for the 5700 XT.
2) PS4 doesn't have any WGPs because it's not RDNA and WGP is a new thing that only exists in the RDNA architecture.

Your whole PS4 understanding is way off. GCN 2.0 which PS4 is based on has individual CUs, not WGPs. On PS4, all you needed was to disable 2 CUs because it had two SEs, one in each SE. The Pro had 4 SEs, so they needed to disable 4 CUs, one in each. The big difference between that and RDNA is that now RDNA has WGPs instead of individual CUs, so now a grouping of two CUs have to be disabled every time you disable a CU. That's why on GCN you had to disable 1 CU per SE and in RDNA you need to disable 2 CUs per SE.
I meant PS5 instead PS4... just a typo... PS5 has the same layout/numbers of RX 5700.
 
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SonGoku

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I don’t have any example of SE... just SA.
That's what im saying if a WGP is disabled in one SE it must also be disabled on the adjacent SE. SEs must have equal number of active CUs, this didn't seem to change with RDNA
Sorry i got SAs & SEs earlier
 
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Shmunter

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I thought cache gets changed/overwritten when GPU access memory not in cache - .. so it'll get overwritten anyway ?

When main memory gets changed by SSD the GPU cache scrubber is informed and marks all data in that range as "old" ?? - maybe .. I don't feel this was explained that well in the talk
That’s right, cache is only valid if underlying ram is unchanged. But it would be moot if it needed to check the ram for changes before using it, so it’s flagged as you say. Scrubbers seem to work in tandem with the ssd to flag small portions of the cache needing refresh vs what must traditionally be dumping the baby with the bath water. A fine grained approach to increase efficiency.
 
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Ascend

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With a 50% compression ratio and 2.5GB/s bandwidth the XSX can stream at most 5GB of texture data per second.
This is still slower than the PS5's RAW, uncompressed bandwidth of 5.5GB/s.
With a 25% compression ratio and 5.5GB/s bandwidth, the PS5 will be able to stream at most 7.3GB of texture data per second.

Unless Microsoft have some ridiculous magic compression, they simply cannot overcome a raw 125% bandwidth advantage. And that's ignoring the fact that Sony too, can utilise compression,.
I agree. So to me it's still weird that this developer is saying this, and that for some reason, MS is keeping quiet about it. Apparently they are going to announce it in May though, if the rumors are correct. So we'll see. I don't think it will beat the PS5 SSD solution, but it might bring it closer than it seems to be at this moment. Emphasis on might, because it might not.
 

01011001

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With a 50% compression ratio and 2.5GB/s bandwidth the XSX can stream at most 5GB of texture data per second.
This is still slower than the PS5's RAW, uncompressed bandwidth of 5.5GB/s.
With a 25% compression ratio and 5.5GB/s bandwidth, the PS5 will be able to stream at most 7.3GB of texture data per second.

Unless Microsoft have some ridiculous magic compression, they simply cannot overcome a raw 125% bandwidth advantage. And that's ignoring the fact that Sony too, can utilise compression,.
uhm... doesn't the Series X have a speed of 4.8 GB/s compressed? so exactly that kind of data what this is about, so why use the uncompressed speed of 2.5GB/s? meaning at 50% compression that would be 9.6GB/s, meaning it can fill the whole RAM pool in about 1.5sec.
meaning if a game has to load 16GB of data at one for some weird reason, we would look at a worst case load time of 1.5sec... let's say 2sec very worst case.
I don't see an issue with that tbh.
 
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Rusco Da Vino

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My assumption that it is was a leaked image comes from a comment he liked from a user that claimed he leaked SSD image and that he put text on it saying ”Exclusive”. It is in the first picture I posted. All the comments are from his videos. Apperantly as you have verified it was just the manufacturer that he leaked and not an image.
It is good that you make this clarification. Thank you.

He did not claim that the picture in the video is the current PS5 Controller.

The "APU" is just a video slider of a PS4 Pro chip used for reference only.
 
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Shmunter

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I believe this will not be the case. Multiplatforms will also use it as it's basically "free" and they will not need to deal with streaming and asset management to the degree they need to on other platforms. The SSD-to-GPU memory API on the PS5 is basically got request a range of asset IDs and where to map them, aka what low res textures to replace, and it's done automatically and really really fast. It would be strange to not use something so that is so easy to use.
Duplication tricks won’t work on slower ssd’s. Not sure what tricks can possibly be employed to bridge the raw bandwidth of ssd - apart from more ram to cache with. Not applicable to consoles with same memory footprint however.
 
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Radical_3d

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Ram increased from 512MB to 8GB from ps3 to ps4. But originally the ps4 was going to be 4GB.

That said the fast ssds appear critical to mitigate the issue of smaller ram jump.
Yes, with traditional disk systems, that was the case as resolution increases mandates higher resolution textures. With the PS5 disk system in particular, you can still have high resolution textures, and load them on demand, significantly reducing the RAM requirements.
It’s not the first time the disk speed has been increased and nevertheless we had always bigger jumps in RAM.
Let’s take as an example a late console in the cycle line the original Xbox was and an early one, like the 360 was as well. The original Xbox had a drive that reads at 2.6 MB/s, with 2x DVD drive. The 360 has a 12x DVD drive with a read speed of 15,85 MB/s. So, more than 6 times the speed and four times more RAM.

Let’s take another jump to the slow standard of today, from the better GPU performance of that generation (the 360) to the PS4 and its slow drive. Remember that the PS4 is part of the underpowered generation because in 2013 everyone though that consoles were dead. So, continuing with the example the PS4 has a stock drive that reads sequential data at about 115 MB/s. So about 7.5x the speed of the 360 with 16x times the amount of memory that is also eight time faster. No next gen console is even close to give you 8 time the speed of the PS4 RAM. Not even 4x.

I know the solutions of the SSD should do wonders about this shortage in memory in the next generation but that’s just a workaround for not paying upfront for the main memory, that would be the optimal solution. Maybe this was for the best because the global economy is about to be hit very hard.
 

mitchman

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It’s not the first time the disk speed has been increased and nevertheless we had always bigger jumps in RAM.
Yes, but this is the first time disk speeds have been so high it can literary load textures as you turn around, and dump whatever textures that is loaded and no longer visible. There really hasn't been such a huge jump in disk performance before, so I really do think this will make for a much better gaming _experience_ that past generations that had significant load times.