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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

ksdixon

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With purchase of Insomniac, does Sony now hold the keys to Sunset Overdrive and Alan Wake? Not gonna lie, I'd like some remasters/ports or sequels tbh.

Oh, and on a related note, how are SEGA allowed to publish Bayonetta/Vanquish definitive editions on PS4/XB1, I thought Nintendo took over the Bayonetta license and owned B2 and B3 wholly?
 
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DaGwaphics

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sircaw sircaw does it matter in the context of the initial exchange? Sub the 3080ti for the 3060 ti/super if you think that helps.

K ksdixon , I don't think Insomniac ever touched Alan Wake (that's a Remedy thing I believe).
 
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Delpij

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*Tim Sweeney says what happened*
You: "Nobody knows what happened."
Tim Sweeney said an investment was made after the presentation...
But nobody knows when the deal was originally brought to the table. Might be before the presentation, might be after.

Epic has been fundraising since Q1 2020, at a $15B pre-money valuation.
They did a big round with KPCB and others back in 2018.

But yeah, keep going guys.
 
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ksdixon

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K ksdixon , I don't think Insomniac ever touched Alan Wake (that's a Remedy thing I believe).
Oh yeah, my bad, i merged Insomniac and Remedy in my head for a while, back when Sony were rumored to buy them when Control was new; then turned around and bought Insomniac instead.
 
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SleepDoctor

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sircaw sircaw does it matter in the context of the initial exchange? Sub the 3080ti for the 3060 ti/super if you think that helps.

K ksdixon , I don't think Insomniac ever touched Alan Wake (that's a Remedy thing I believe).

Gotta keep the goalposts moving 🤣🤣.

And Remedy did Alan Wake not Insomniac. I don't think MS owns Alan Wake nor SO rights tho.
 
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ksdixon

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Did this get discussed anywhere on GAF yet?
I feel like a lot of this thread passes me buy as different pieces of news come out.





What does GAF think of this? Cause to get excited for PS1,2,3,4 BC on PS5?
Personally, I would love to let myself get excited, but I can't afford the let down. Better to think it isn't/can't happen, and recieve a positive surprise, hopefully.

If it were to happen, I want the ability to download games to SSD through PSNow, like GamePass. Trying to stream games on PSNow, depending on the game, can be completely lag-filled and unplayable.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
sircaw sircaw does it matter in the context of the initial exchange? Sub the 3080ti for the 3060 ti/super if you think that helps.


Of course it matters, subbing in the 3060 is moving the goal post a HELL OF ALOT, if you meant the 360 then that's what you should of said then i would of agreed with your point.

We talking mega bucks for a 3080ti, you know it, i know it.
the comparison was poor, really poor.

You know basically what the difference between the top xbox console and the lockheart is going to be.
To compare those numbers to a flagship gpu, the 3080ti vs a bottom of the range card like a 3050, i just expected better from you.Your posts are normally pretty decent. sorry.
 

SleepDoctor

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Did this get discussed anywhere on GAF yet?
I feel like a lot of this thread passes me buy as different pieces of news come out.





What does GAF think of this? Cause to get excited for PS1,2,3,4 BC on PS5?
Personally, I would love to let myself get excited, but I can't afford the let down. Better to think it isn't/can't happen, and recieve a positive surprise, hopefully.

If it were to happen, I want the ability to download games to SSD through PSNow, like GamePass. Trying to stream games on PSNow, depending on the game, can be completely lag-filled and unplayable.

I think its probably related to ps now. Had it been legitimately bc across all generations, they'd be repeating it everywhere. Or maybe its just not ready yet.

I just wait for something officially rather than give a bunch people clicks or views who try to claim "inside" info.
 
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sircaw

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A local pond.
Gotta keep the goalposts moving 🤣🤣.

And Remedy did Alan Wake not Insomniac. I don't think MS owns Alan Wake nor SO rights tho.
Come on sleep doc, lets here your thoughts on the comparison, your giving the triggered emote everytime i say something.

Do you think its Fair to compare a 500 xbox console to a 299 lockheart console

To a 3080 Ti costing ( bare in mind the 2080 ti costs a £1000 pounds at the moment) and the even if i go one extra up from the shitty 1050 to a 2060 that still costs 300.

Come on Sleep DOC, are you saying the 200 bucks difference between the consoles is the same as +700 bucks (remember i even gave you a better more expensive card to help you out) Is this a good comparison.

Do you think nvidia prices are going to go down next generation.
 

Games Dean

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Tim Sweeney said an investment was made after the presentation...
But nobody knows when the deal was originally brought to the table. Might be before the presentation, might be after.

Epic has been fundraising since Q1 2020, at a $15B pre-money valuation.
They did a big round with KPCB and others back in 2018.

But yeah, keep going guys.
Man whatever makes you feel better and fits the narrative. I know better than to waste my time arguing with someone making a "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" kind of argument. Have a good one.
 

DaGwaphics

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Of course it matters, subbing in the 3060 is moving the goal post a HELL OF ALOT, if you meant the 360 then that's what you should of said then i would of agreed with your point.

We talking mega bucks for a 3080ti, you know it, i know it.
the comparison was poor, really poor.

You know basically what the difference between the top xbox console and the lockheart is going to be.
To compare those numbers to a flagship gpu, the 3080ti vs a bottom of the range card like a 3050, i just expected better from you.Your posts are normally pretty decent. sorry.


Somebody had soggy cornflakes this morning.

Pricing and performance were immaterial to my example. The 3080ti is the top of nVidia's consumer line (barring another Titan) and 3050 will likely be the bottom (unless they toss out some OEM dogs). XSX is the pinnacle of the upcoming Xbox lineup with (the at this point still theoretical) lockhart picking up the rear. The price to performance ratio will be different on the consoles, obviously. The consoles are complete systems with CPUs and NVMe SSDs. The XSX looks to be a steal as it is, with lochart looking like a miracle of modern manufacturing that it can exist at all.
 
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Thirty7ven

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And it displays every bit of information required but of course you are refusing to put it together.

2080 @ 1440p dlss= 67fps
2080ti @ 1440p dlss = 77fps

2080 @ 1080p no dlss = 50
2080ti @ 1080p no dlss = ??? psst, it's not 60



Just more constant disingenuous nonsense.
Hilarious. Yeah, if we apply the difference seen there, then at 1080p the 2080ti would in theory be at 58FPS.

It brings a 2080ti to its knees and needs DLSS at 1080p to reach 60fps, even though it reaches 60 FPS at 4K with DLSS but I’m the one who is being disingenuous.

I would love to know what you believe would be the difference between a PS5 and a XSX in that demo.

Taking a look at a 2080 vs 2080Ti, it’s 10.03 Tflops vs 13.45 Tflops. Almost twice the TFlop difference than PS5 vs XBS.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.


Somebody had soggy cornflakes this morning.

Pricing and performance were immaterial to my example. The 3080ti is the top of nVidia's consumer line (barring another Titan) and 3050 will likely be the bottom (unless they toss out some OEM dogs). XSX is the pinnacle of the upcoming Xbox lineup with (the at this point still theoretical) lockhart picking up the rear. The price to performance ratio will be different on the consoles, obviously. The consoles are complete systems with CPUs and NVMe SSDs. The XSX looks to be a steal as it is, with lochart looking like a miracle of modern manufacturing that it can exist at all.
I can't believe i am wasting my time with this lol. Enough said lol.
You have a good day haha. :messenger_beaming:

Note to self, Don't engage anymore.
 
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FranXico

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Did this get discussed anywhere on GAF yet?
I feel like a lot of this thread passes me buy as different pieces of news come out.





What does GAF think of this? Cause to get excited for PS1,2,3,4 BC on PS5?
Personally, I would love to let myself get excited, but I can't afford the let down. Better to think it isn't/can't happen, and recieve a positive surprise, hopefully.

If it were to happen, I want the ability to download games to SSD through PSNow, like GamePass. Trying to stream games on PSNow, depending on the game, can be completely lag-filled and unplayable.
That BC "rumor" has been debunked. It's an old patent about PSNow.
 

pawel86ck

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Can we stop with the nonsense that the PS5 has 36CUs because of BC? AMD is moving to 40CU chiplets that will stack to 80. The PS5 has a 40CU chiplet with 4 disabled for yields. That's all.
During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.

I think Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on one of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and because more and more playstation fans wanted BC, so in the end 36 CU GPU design was chosen. Personally I would rather want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF and many fans including me were expecting 13 TF.
Also, let's stop with the nonsense that the XSX has higher bandwidth. The CU fill rate is LOWER than the PS5 when accounting for the split ram pool and higher CU count.
There's no need to takie into account slower memory pool in real game scenario, because no developer will use more than 10 GB just for textures with only 13.5 GB available. So dont worry, XSX GPU will be well feed with tasty 560 GB/s BW :).
 
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SleepDoctor

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If memory serves, Microsoft held the rights to Alan Wake (at least the first game) but in an act of good faith gave the IP back to Remedy. They deserve a tip of the cap for that.

I always thought it was just Remedy's ip from day one. Either way it'd be nice to see the ip brought back next gen along with Max Payne but I believe take two owns that now.
 

yewles1

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You know one of the things I am excited about for the PS5, appart from all the upgrades they have already mentioned..... The WiFi card 😂.

Hate being stuck with 40-60 Mbps when my phone goes over 200 Mbps because it supports 5Ghz but my OG PS4 doesn't.

Looking forward to being able to use my full connection, on what I hope is an upgraded PSN services.
DUUUUUUUUUUUUDE!!! If PS5 supports WiFi6, 6E and 60 frequencies... *creams at the thought*
 

Gediminas

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No enemies on screen
No players on screen
No cows on screen
No nothing on screen
Low complexity assets
Cubes only
6x flat surfaces with textures
Just a camera, slowly "flying on rails" between every scene
was still laggy
no one gonna counter this from xbox side. it is obvious. they will ignore this and pretend that is not a thing.
 

Tiago07

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.

Maybe Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on few of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and more and more playstation fans wanted BC, therefore 36 CU GPU design was chosen. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF (numbers many fans including me were epecting). Personally If would have to choose I would want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU 48 CUs 13.5 TF.
Nope, Cerny clearly compared 48 CUs vs 36 CUs and he said with this exact words "CU count should be avoided as well", and It's not possible to obtain this level of higher clocks with 48 CUs
(Cerny thoughful experiment between 36 CUs vs 48 CUs)
"in generally I prefer to run the GPU at higher clocks, let me show why"
"these two GPUs roughly of the level of PS4 Pro"
36 CUs 1Ghz = 4,6 TFlops
48 CUs 0,75Ghz = 4,6 TFlops

"And is more easy to fully use 36 CUs in parallel than 48 CUs"

Cerny cleared said that a hardware with 36 CUs in PS5 would be better than other with 48CUs with lower clocks.

You said Sony chosen for BC reasons but Series X will have BC and have 52 CUs.
And PS5 CU is bigger than PS4 CU. Based in transistor count, 36 CUs in PS5 would be 58 PS4 CUs (and we're not compare that PS5's CU is infinitely better and have almost 3x the clock speed).

So no CU's count don't interfere with BC.
 
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Darius87

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.
he didn't say that 36CU was the reason for BC he said that incorporating PS4, PS4 PRO logic into chip is better then adding whole chip into PS5 like they did with PS3
if you think PS5 has to be exact 36 CU because PS4 PRO is 36 CU for BW to work
PS4 is 18 CU PS5 also should be 18CU by your logic or XSEX 40CU like XONEX? or 12CU like XONE? this doesn't make sense.

Maybe Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on few of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and more and more playstation fans wanted BC, therefore 36 CU GPU design was chosen. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF (numbers many fans including me were epecting). Personally If would have to choose I would want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU 48 CUs 13.5 TF.
again CU count has nothing to do with BC 36CU was chosen because Cerny likes run everything at high clocks.

There's no need to takie into account slower memory pool in real game scenario, because no developer will use more than 10 GB just for textures with only 13.5 GB available. So dont worry, XSX GPU will be well feed with tasty 560 GB/s BW :).
how do you know? there's 16GB of ram total it could easily use 1GB or to 2GB more.
 
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jose4gg

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.

Maybe Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on one of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and because more and more playstation fans wanted BC, so in the end 36 CU GPU design was chosen. Personally I would rather want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF and many fans including me were expecting 13 TF.

There's no need to takie into account slower memory pool in real game scenario, because no developer will use more than 10 GB just for textures with only 13.5 GB available. So dont worry, XSX GPU will be well feed with tasty 560 GB/s BW :).
We can disable CU by Software... he didn't imply that...
 
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Arguing about GPU's & what not.When people only care about results. The results are in.

UE5 demo VS Expected representation of XSX gamplay.

The 12 TF ,more power campaign started in what December/November. And still nothing to show off. That wowed the community.

We are suppose to be smart people.That go on results. But can't work out that the XSX can't deliver on its numbers. Most Powerful console. But all we see is *Expected representation of XSX gamplay* disclaimers.

What's the quote. Judge people by their actions & not their words.
 

LED Guy?

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I know that. But some guy seems to not have or don't want to understand. Dictator in first place with his FUD gang.
Yeah I know what you mean, sorry if I came across maybe a little offensive because I thought you were saying something else, but yeah I agree with you, Dictator and his FUD gang are kinda running wild in these forums.
 
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jose4gg

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Arguing about GPU's & what not.When people only care about results. The results are in.

UE5 demo VS Expected representation of XSX gamplay.

The 12 TF ,more power campaign started in what December/November. And still nothing to show off. That wowed the community.

We are suppose to be smart people.That go on results. But can't work out that the XSX can't deliver on its numbers. Most Powerful console. But all we see is *Expected representation of XSX gamplay* disclaimers.

What's the quote. Judge people by their actions & not their words.
We need to wait for July 23, MS cannot simply throw every card when they've been more open about the console from the start.
 
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DaGwaphics

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I can't believe i am wasting my time with this lol. Enough said lol.
You have a good day haha. :messenger_beaming:

Note to self, Don't engage anymore.
:messenger_tears_of_joy:

No worries, all sunshine and sailboats here.

Not sure how I crossed you today. For what it is worth, I think the PS5 is going to be an insane value (especially that DE).
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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Nope, Cerny clearly compared 48 CUs vs 36 CUs and he said with this exact words "CU count should be avoided as well", and It's not possible to obtain this level of higher clocks with 48 CUs
(Cerny thoughful experiment between 36 CUs vs 48 CUs)
"in generally I prefer to run the GPU at higher clocks, let me show why"
"these two GPUs roughly of the level of PS4 Pro"
36 CUs 1Ghz = 4,6 TFlops
48 CUs 0,75Ghz = 4,6 TFlops

"And is more easy to fully use 36 CUs in parallel than 48 CUs"

Cerny cleared said that a hardware with 36 CUs in PS5 would be better than other with 48CUs with lower clocks.

You said Sony chosed for BC reasons but Series X will have BC and have 52 CUs.
And PS5 CU is bigger than PS4 CU. Based in transistor count, 36 CUs in PS5 would be 58 PS4 CUs (and we're not compare that PS5 is infinitely better and have almost 3x the clock speed).

So no CU's count don't interfere with BC.
The irony (and no doubt a wink from Cerny!) being Andrew Goossen and Nick Baker used the exact same argument here for Xbox One versus PS4 after they upped the clocks because they were down by 6CUs/50% on the GPU.

Balance is so key to real effective performance. It's been really nice on Xbox One with Nick and his team and the system design folks have built a system where we've had the opportunity to check our balances on the system and make tweaks accordingly. Did we do a good job when we did all of our analysis a couple of years ago and simulations and guessing where games would be in terms of utilisation? Did we make the right balance decisions back then? And so raising the GPU clock is the result of going in and tweaking our balance. Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing. But we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did. Now everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that [can] cause you not to get the performance you want [if your design is out of balance].

Nick Baker: Increasing the frequency impacts the whole of the GPU whereas adding CUs beefs up shaders and ALU.

Andrew Goossen: Right. By fixing the clock, not only do we increase our ALU performance, we also increase our vertex rate, we increase our pixel rate and ironically increase our ESRAM bandwidth. But we also increase the performance in areas surrounding bottlenecks like the drawcalls flowing through the pipeline, the performance of reading GPRs out of the GPR pool, etc. GPUs are giantly complex. There's gazillions of areas in the pipeline that can be your bottleneck in addition to just ALU and fetch performance.
 

pawel86ck

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Nope, Cerny clearly compared 48 CUs vs 36 CUs and he said with this exact words "CU count should be avoided as well", and It's not possible to obtain this level of higher clocks with 48 CUs
(Cerny thoughful experiment between 36 CUs vs 48 CUs)
"in generally I prefer to run the GPU at higher clocks, let me show why"
"these two GPUs roughly of the level of PS4 Pro"
36 CUs 1Ghz = 4,6 TFlops
48 CUs 0,75Ghz = 4,6 TFlops

"And is more easy to fully use 36 CUs in parallel than 48 CUs"

Cerny cleared said that a hardware with 36 CUs in PS5 would be better than other with 48CUs with lower clocks.

You said Sony chosed for BC reasons but Series X will have BC and have 52 CUs.
And PS5 CU is bigger than PS4 CU. Based in transistor count, 36 CUs in PS5 would be 58 PS4 CUs (and we're not compare that PS5 is infinitely better and have almost 3x the clock speed).

So no CU's count don't interfere with BC.
You are talking about 48 CUs GPU but with much slower clock, while I was thinking about 48 CUs with the same 2200 MHz clock speed

48 CUs 2200 MHz = 13.5 TF
48 CUs 2100 MHz = 12.9 TF
48 CUs 2000 MHz = 12.2 TF
48 CUs 1900 MHz = 11.6 TF
48 CUs 1800 MHz = 11 TF
48 CUs 1700 MHz = 10.4 TF

You want to tell me Sony would go even below 1700 MHz on 48 CUs GPU?

And BTW. I wonder why 2080ti is clearly faster than RTX 2080, because according to Cerny smaller GPU with higher clock should be faster, but that's not the case with 2080ti.
 
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Sinthor

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.
Say what??? When and how was this implied? You do realize you can turn CU's on and off via software, right? Saying that Sony was limited to 36 CU's for BC is patently false. That they would be stuck with going to 72 next, then 144.....just....no.
 

Ass of Can Whooping

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.

I think Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on one of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and because more and more playstation fans wanted BC, so in the end 36 CU GPU design was chosen. Personally I would rather want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF and many fans including me were expecting 13 TF.

There's no need to takie into account slower memory pool in real game scenario, because no developer will use more than 10 GB just for textures with only 13.5 GB available. So dont worry, XSX GPU will be well feed with tasty 560 GB/s BW :).
If this was true the PS4 pro would have had 18 CU
 
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geordiemp

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You are talking about 48 CUs GPU but with much slower clock, while I was thinking about 48 CUs with the same 2200 MHz clock speed

48 CUs 2200 MHz = 13.5 TF
48 CUs 2100 MHz = 12.9 TF
48 CUs 2000 MHz = 12.2 TF
48 CUs 1900 MHz = 11.6 TF
48 CUs 1800 MHz = 11 TF
48 CUs 1700 MHz = 10.4 TF

You want to tell me Sony would go even below 1700 MHz on 48 CUs GPU?

And BTW. I wonder why 2080ti is clearly faster than RTX 2080, because according to Cerny smaller GPU with higher clock should be faster, but that's not the case with 2080ti.
Cerny said the RDNA2 GPU design they had stopped giving benefits after 2.23 Ghz due to logic, they could go higher Cerny said that.....BUT Sony capped the GPU frequnecy there.

What frequency do you think the older nodes for 2080 got limited by frequency ?

Answer = Its not relevant is it. You can only get benefits by clocking to what the design and silicon can achieve at the time.

Lets see what clocks Nvidia have coming out of TSMC in a few months, I bet they are boosting close to 2.3 Ghz....

I think you expect this as well dont you ?
 
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pawel86ck

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Say what??? When and how was this implied? You do realize you can turn CU's on and off via software, right? Saying that Sony was limited to 36 CU's for BC is patently false. That they would be stuck with going to 72 next, then 144.....just....no.
24m:29s - Cerny talk about GPU, "we want to make sure PS5 can run PS4 games" (BC was clearly their goal in PS5 GPU design)
27m:20s - in regards to BC "a better way is to incorporate any differences in previous console logic into the new console custom chips". (And that includes frequency and CUs amount)

Different CUs amount is a big difference for BC and that's why I think they went with 36 CUs. 48 CUs even at 2000 MHz would be faster (12.2 TF) compared to 36 CUs running at 2.2 GHz. Why they would want to go with smaller and slower GPU then?
 
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jose4gg

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24m:29s - Cerny talk about GPU, "we want to make sure PS5 can run PS4 games" (BC was clearly their goal in PS5 GPU design)
27m:20s - in regards to BC "a better way is to incorporate any differences in previous console logic into the new console custom chips". (And that includes frequency and CUs amount)

Different CUs amount is a big difference for BC and that's why I think they went with 36 CUs. 48 CUs even at 2000 MHz would be faster (12.2 TF) compared to 36 CUs running at 2.2 GHz. Why they would want to go with smaller and slower GPU then?

We can disable CU programmatically... 🤦🏽‍♂️
 

THE:MILKMAN

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Are you sure about that? Thought with smartshift it could go an extra 10 to 15%?
My understanding is SmartShift literally shifts electrical power only. Which leads to more effective performance.

In PS5 it was something Mark Cerny said this AMD tech was added 'while we're at it' which I interpret as the continuously variable boost tech is a standalone Sony designed feature that they added AMD's SmartShift to. I wonder if this is one of those features born out of the colab that AMD will incorporate into their future CPU/GPUs?