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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

pawel86ck

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If this was true the PS4 pro would have had 18 CU
Both AMD and Nv knows turing off shader cores is not so simple and Nvidia GTX 970 was a prime example what can happen wrong when too much shader cores are disabled. PS4P GPU was build in a butterfly design and they could turn off half of the chip without impacting performance of the other half, so 18 CUs was emulated perfectly.
 
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Sinthor

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24m:29s - Cerny talk about GPU, "we want to make sure PS5 can run PS4 games" (BC was clearly their goal in PS5 GPU design)
27m:20s - in regards to BC "a better way is to incorporate any differences in previous console logic into the new console custom chips". (And that includes frequency and CUs amount)

Different CUs amount is a big difference for BC and that's why I think they went with 36 CUs. 48 CUs even at 2000 MHz would be faster (12.2 TF) compared to 36 CUs running at 2.2 GHz. Why they would want to go with smaller and slower GPU then?
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and yes BC was a goal but as he says, the 'better way' is to incorporate differences in logic into the new console chips. That means instruction set...the programming or programming language if you will. For example....in the 'old days' you couldn't run Windows apps on a Mac primarily because they used different PROCESSORS. This meant they used different instruction sets. Now that Mac's use Intel processors, you can run Windows on your Mac if you want. THAT's what he meant. "Logic" is not tied to hardware and hardware CU count. In this case it means making sure that the new GPU is still compatible with the old GCN instruction set.

The number of CU's is just the number of processors for graphics if you will. So the processors work with certain instructions. Making sure those NEW CU's still work with the OLD instructions is far more important than the physical number of CU's especially when the new CU's are twice or more as powerful as the old.
 

J_Gamer.exe

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I'm convinced the mods let everyone banned from both sides back in, in an attempt to kill off the thread lol. Bit of a backfire though, this is entertaining.
I don't mind the debate and for entertainment. Its what its all about for me. I don't think anyone has really overstepped too far and if they can be countered with facts then that's the best way to settle things.

There has been a failure to look at evidence. All the back and forths about potential this and that and I don't believe anyone answered my point of why the actual FACTUAL resolutions and framerates so far were exactly the same. Not a single difference unless I've missed something.

Seems a strong way to counter any arguments and probably why there was no replies to it, as the same res and framerates but a slight effects difference is way less than the power narrative some have been pushing.
 

Games Dean

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I always thought it was just Remedy's ip from day one. Either way it'd be nice to see the ip brought back next gen along with Max Payne but I believe take two owns that now.
I got curious myself and decided to check. Microsoft did own the IP but then transferred it to Remedy. Not sure if Remedy paid for it or got it for free but that doesn't really matter I guess.

Window Central article about it.

And I would LOVE to get a new Max Payne.
 

Weik

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Apr 26, 2020
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I have a technical question about the SSD of the PS5,
How is it possible to manage a 5.5 GB/s of speedrate even if sometimes the files to transfer are very small ?

In a classic SSD, you have a very high speed when you are in sequential mode but for small files the speed transfer decrease a lot.
What is the Sony's solution to stay at the same speed at least all the time ?
Or is it just for big files only ?
 
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Dodkrake

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.

I think Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on one of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and because more and more playstation fans wanted BC, so in the end 36 CU GPU design was chosen. Personally I would rather want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF and many fans including me were expecting 13 TF.

There's no need to takie into account slower memory pool in real game scenario, because no developer will use more than 10 GB just for textures with only 13.5 GB available. So dont worry, XSX GPU will be well feed with tasty 560 GB/s BW :).
560GBs / 52 = 10.77GBs per CU
448GBs / 36 = 12.44GBs per CU

CU fill rate is faster in the PS5 no matter how you spin it, even considering the faster pool only (which will not happen apart from your fantasy land)

As for CU counts, the PS5 is using a design that is part of the future roadmap for AMD, the Xbox is not. Deal with it.
 

Dodkrake

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Feb 28, 2020
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I have a technical question about the SSD of the PS5,
How is it possible to manage a 5.5 GB/s of speedrate even if sometimes the files to transfer are very small ?

In a classic SSD, you have a very high speed when you are in sequential mode but for small files the speed transfer decrease a lot.
What is the Sony's solution to stay at the same speed at least all the time ?
Or is it just for big files only ?
Depends on how you store your files and the filesystem. What is Microsoft's solution for this problem?
 
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DaGwaphics

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560GBs / 52 = 10.77GBs per CU
448GBs / 36 = 12.44GBs per CU

CU fill rate is faster in the PS5 no matter how you spin it, even considering the faster pool only (which will not happen apart from your fantasy land)

As for CU counts, the PS5 is using a design that is part of the future roadmap for AMD, the Xbox is not. Deal with it.

Since both are using a shared pool for CPU and GPU (MS has been very clear, Sony not as much, but I'm going to assume if they had a secondary pool for games they would have mentioned it), you can't really take the max number and tag it to the GPU. Also, the higher clock speeds should make the Sony CUs a bit thirstier per second right?
 
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Bryank75

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Jan 12, 2018
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I have a technical question about the SSD of the PS5,
How is it possible to manage a 5.5 GB/s of speedrate even if sometimes the files to transfer are very small ?

In a classic SSD, you have a very high speed when you are in sequential mode but for small files the speed transfer decrease a lot.
What is the Sony's solution to stay at the same speed at least all the time ?
Or is it just for big files only ?
Isn't that the job of the 12 channel IO!?

It prioritizes and organizes everything to maximize efficiency of emptying and filling the RAM.....
 

B_Boss

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im too inclined to say its fake. his pinky is barely holding the pad, some shadows are long, some are short, some areas are darker, the inner hand, palm should be darker if the light source is coming from the right.

Agreed King Harkinian King Harkinian . One of the biggest oddities with the photo to me is the utter lack of tonal (light/shadow) value where the bottom of the controller meets with the hand.

Someone here posted another photo of someone holding a DualShock 4 in a similar fashion. Just look at the lights, darks, shadows, etc. That is how light reacts with physical objects without interference or molestation if you will. There is absolutely no indication that an object is blocking light from appearing on the palm of the hand.

So, looking at the pinky and ring finger plus the mid palm and looking at where the controller meets the hand in that area there is hardly light changes when there should be in spades given the light source. I could certainly be wrong on this but there you go 🍻.
 
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Lunatic_Gamer

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PC 8TB SSD 3x Faster Than PS5’s SSD But it’ll Cost You

Say hello to the AORUS Gen4 AIC 8 Terabyte SSD. It isn’t an SSD as you would expect, in fact it is four 2TB SSD’s mounted on a motherboard which is cooled by its own fan and it runs through the ultra fast PCI-Express 4 16x connection.

Boasting speeds of 15,000MB’s of transfer rate a second (real world hovers around 13GB~ a second), it towers over the PS5’s 5GB a second by a factor of almost 3!


Good luck spending $2,000 on that though.
 

SSfox

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I'm curious when DmS and GT7 release dates, those are my top 2 most wanted next gen games.

I think they'll come before Horizon 2, and since this last one is planned for 2021 i guess it's not too far for DmS and GT7!!
 
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Darius87

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I have a technical question about the SSD of the PS5,
How is it possible to manage a 5.5 GB/s of speedrate even if sometimes the files to transfer are very small ?

In a classic SSD, you have a very high speed when you are in sequential mode but for small files the speed transfer decrease a lot.
What is the Sony's solution to stay at the same speed at least all the time ?
Or is it just for big files only ?
to achieve 5gb/s for example 4KiB of data granularity level per request it is necessary to complete processing in 0.8 useconds per request if time of completion is longer then that the transfer rate naturally will be lower.
so 1gb/s takes 4.1 useconds per request, 5gb/s takes 0.8 useconds per request reduce twice usecons to double the gb/s also for larger data let's say 64 KiB just times x16 useconds so 0.8 * 16 approximate is 13useconds per request.
there's much more happening under the hood like compression when file is written to ssd if data is compressible parallel data access from NAND devices and so on.
 
May 18, 2020
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We need to wait for July 23, MS cannot simply throw every card when they've been more open about the console from the start.
Your a good guy. You have faith. But as I told you good brother. Judge people by their actions not their words.

I don't know what you define as "open" regarding xbox. From my instincts. All I see is smoke ,mirrors ,marketing terms that mean f**k all. Xbox did a whole XSX Next Gen show with trailers running on 2080TI. And put *Expected representation of XSX gameplay* disclaimers. Throughout the whole show. Thats a red flag. They have been talking about power & have not displayed said power. And thats telling. They started this next gen campaign in December last year. Its now July ,7 months in & still no mind blowing 12 TF power display. If they had said 12 TF power they would of shown it to us & gloated in fine detail. With the console specs revealed ,dev comments. They don't have it my guy. They don't have that power they talk up. They have good power but not that monster power they tried to market.

Ask yourself how is it the "weaker" box has the best display of next gen we have seen(UE5). And the more powerful box doesn't.You see how quick Xbox & Greenberg tweet saying we have those games after PS announces 3rd party games. They had no rebuttal for UE5 demo. With xbox's power narrative you would think it would be them showing us UE5 visual level. Yet crickets. That is telling.

As for July 23rd it will be a good show by xbox standard. But Its not hard to have a good show. Show games ,show gameplay ,don't talk too much Thats all they have to do. Concentrate on the games. Forget about the 12TF power stuff. I don't ever see that power coming. The XSX is built the traditional way & will have bottlenecks & problems top end cards/console face traditionally. And those cards never reach maximum capability. Neither will the XSX. It is what it is. Xbox are making games to run on HDD's & xbox one. I don't even trust the cut off point of 2 years. Because if the sales numbers of XSX are poor they will back those old boxes & older PC's. As your Man Phil just came out talking about supporting old tech. Everyone forgets about the PC support Xbox do. They may still support HDD games for PC crowd.To pad their numbers up.

Go into July for the games. The July visuals will be current gen. Maybe 3rd party drop next gen footage. But games are the most important thing no??. Halo ,Gears Tactics, Battletoads ,Everwild , Fable., Forza, obsidian new rpg. Then 3rd party stuff. They will probably show halo for 15-20 minutes. Pad up time. Then drop Lockhart at the end & wrap up the show. That should be good for you right?? (I wouldn't expect more)
 
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Oct 16, 2017
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Ditto for nVidia. I hope they only release the 3080ti, a 3050 makes the entire lineup worthless and unmarketable.
I am always amused by people pretending to know pc gaming. It is this lack of knowledge that allowed Xbox PR to spew outright lies, knowing their customers can't tell the difference between a PC and a hole in the ground.
A pity that lies only last until launch.
 

DaGwaphics

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I am always amused by people pretending to know pc gaming. It is this lack of knowledge that allowed Xbox PR to spew outright lies, knowing their customers can't tell the difference between a PC and a hole in the ground.
A pity that lies only last until launch.
Consider me schooled.

 

Dodkrake

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Feb 28, 2020
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Since both are using a shared pool for CPU and GPU (MS has been very clear, Sony not as much, but I'm going to assume if they had a secondary pool for games they would have mentioned it), you can't really take the max number and tag it to the GPU. Also, the higher clock speeds should make the Sony CUs a bit thirstier per second right?
No, they shouldn't. And Sony doesn't need to clarify, it's pretty obvious the 16GB are split between the CPU and GPU.
 
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Tiago07

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The irony (and no doubt a wink from Cerny!) being Andrew Goossen and Nick Baker used the exact same argument here for Xbox One versus PS4 after they upped the clocks because they were down by 6CUs/50% on the GPU.
Its very very similar yep, but it's ironic thing was Xbox One only have 64mhz advantage over PS4.

In the past when we didn't know (or we didn't debate more complex things) I would belive that Cerny was trying to make a damage control, like Xbox team did at certain point over PS4 absolut advantage.
But when we started to debate things like CU's occupancy, variable clocks, Smartshift, latency and the SSD itself I think we got it and made me realize "yeah 36 CUs is not a bad thing or Tflops isn't a absolute parameter", Series X have a power advantage but its not like people think it is.
A great part of my knowledge is Thanks to this thread, but obviously I don't know everything or I completely master the subjects I learned here.

I think time is the answer, we gonna see if Cerny was right or not.

Based in what we debate here, PS5 have a CU occupancy advantage due to the I/O, Cache scrubbers and less CU number and this makes 18% margin drop signaficantly or even dissapear. Or we can tell about Triangle processing where Theorically PS5 can handle better because can fill the CUs with useful work when triangles are small like Cerny said and because of the SSD.
It's things that makes PS5 more powerful than Series X, no probably but is things that can help the console.

Like I said time is the answer.

This is why I'm insterested in what Xbox will show to us in the event.
 
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geordiemp

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Since both are using a shared pool for CPU and GPU (MS has been very clear, Sony not as much, but I'm going to assume if they had a secondary pool for games they would have mentioned it), you can't really take the max number and tag it to the GPU. Also, the higher clock speeds should make the Sony CUs a bit thirstier per second right?
Thats not the way to consider things, think in terms of frame time, CPU does work, GPU renders all sharing the bus.

If CPU work goes quicker, more time for GPU work etc. XSX has slower memory and faster memory....so it should be interesting.

Parallel processing, offloading CPU or IO stuff to other logic, can all make a differences to that frame time budget. XSX is more powerful in TF, but Ps5 can claw some of it back in other things, so I dont expect much of a difference in the end result.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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Its very very similar yep, but it's ironic thing was Xbox One only have 64mhz advantage over PS4.

In the past when we didn't know (or we didn't debate more complex things) I would belive that Cerny was trying to make a damage control, like Xbox team did at certain point over PS4 absolut advantage.
But when we started to debate things like CU's occupancy, variable clocks, Smartshift, latency and the SSD itself I think we got it and made me realize "yeah 36 CUs is not a bad thing or Tflops isn't a absolute parameter", Series X have a power advantage but its not like people think it is.
A great part of my knowledge is Thanks to this thread, but obviously I don't know everything or I completely master the subjects I learned here.

I think time is the answer, we gonna see if Cerny was right or not.

Based in what we debate here, PS5 have a CU occupancy advantage due to the I/O, Cache scrubbers and less CU number and this makes 18% margin drop signaficantly or even dissapear. Or we can tell about Triangle processing where Theorically PS5 can handle better because can fill the CUs with useful work when triangles are small like Cerny said and because of the SSD.
It's things that makes PS5 more powerful than Series X, no probably but is things that can help the console.

Like I said time is the answer.

This is why I'm insterested in what Xbox will show to us in the event.
The proof of the pudding is in the tasting as the saying goes. The games will reveal all about whether Sony's/Cerny's path was right in this regard.

I think there are other possible benefits to the lower CU count like a smaller die and (hopefully) lower than expected pricing etc.
 

pawel86ck

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560GBs / 52 = 10.77GBs per CU
448GBs / 36 = 12.44GBs per CU

CU fill rate is faster in the PS5 no matter how you spin it, even considering the faster pool only (which will not happen apart from your fantasy land)

As for CU counts, the PS5 is using a design that is part of the future roadmap for AMD, the Xbox is not. Deal with it.
It's not a fantasy. You really think games load only textures into memory?

In terms of how the memory is allocated, games get a total of 13.5GB in total, which encompasses all 10GB of GPU optimal memory and 3.5GB of standard memory. This leaves 2.5GB of GDDR6 memory from the slower pool for the operating system and the front-end shell. From Microsoft's perspective, it is still a unified memory system, even if performance can vary. "In conversations with developers, it's typically easy for games to more than fill up their standard memory quota with CPU, audio data, stack data, and executable data, script data, and developers like such a trade-off when it gives them more potential bandwidth,"

As you know, with the Xbox One X, we went with the 384[-bit interface] but at these incredible speeds - 14gbps with the GDDR6 - we've pushed as hard as we could and we felt that 320 was a good compromise in terms of achieving as high performance as we could while at the same time building the system that would actually work and we could actually ship."

In short, XSX has asymmetrical memory bandwidth because MS have learned developers will use over 3.5GB for the remaining data anyway. Remember people who build consoles are limited with certain price point and they have to choose wisely where to direct their budget. On paper XSX memory BW is bottlenecked because 6GB has slower 336GB/s bandwidth, but it will be not bottlenecked in real gaming scenarios, because GPU will not need to use over 10 GB anyway. You can push such claim if you want, but it's disingenuous claim (similar to 9.2 TF claims on PS5).

When it comes to XSX GPU we are still waiting for full XSX breakdown (in fact we still dont know much about RDNA2 or nor to mention RDNA3), but you know already Sony is light years ahead. You are a funny guy for sure, but sane people have no reason to believe you :).
 

Lort

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One is the theoretical maximum that a GPU can achieve based on the clock, the other that is really relevant is how much of these TFlops can be achieved in practice. It's not that difficult to understand this difference.

And: the PS5 does not need as much bandwidth because, due to the new architecture, it has to load less redundant data into the memory.
Obviously my point is both are theoretical so whatever amount your trying to make the xbox sound slower by also applies to the ps5 tflops.

Also mem bandwith limit it hit when rendering textures not by the SSD (which is 100 time slower). The xbox has better texture compression so loads less data , and the ram is faster so it can render it quicker ( faster fps / higher res).

In short nothing you mention is an actual benefit to the ps5, they are all benefits to the xbox.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
PC 8TB SSD 3x Faster Than PS5’s SSD But it’ll Cost You

Say hello to the AORUS Gen4 AIC 8 Terabyte SSD. It isn’t an SSD as you would expect, in fact it is four 2TB SSD’s mounted on a motherboard which is cooled by its own fan and it runs through the ultra fast PCI-Express 4 16x connection.

Boasting speeds of 15,000MB’s of transfer rate a second (real world hovers around 13GB~ a second), it towers over the PS5’s 5GB a second by a factor of almost 3!


Good luck spending $2,000 on that though.
From instant load screens to minus load screens, next generation stuff, Woohoo
and 2k a pop, cheap as chips, give me em, my new atari box is going to sing.
 

jose4gg

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Obviously my point is both are theoretical so whatever amount your trying to make the xbox sound slower by also applies to the ps5 tflops.

Also mem bandwith limit it hit when rendering textures not by the SSD (which is 100 time slower). The xbox has better texture compression so loads less data , and the ram is faster so it can render it quicker ( faster fps / higher res).

In short nothing you mention is an actual benefit to the ps5, they are all benefits to the xbox.
Did you already saw the benchmarks between oddle textures and BCPack?
 

3liteDragon

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Honestly at this point, as much as I'm excited to see and breakdown both consoles' overall architectures, no one's talking about the fact that AMD so far hasn't even done a full-on info blowout on RDNA 2's architecture. The only thing we know so far that's been confirmed by AMD is that RDNA 2 will have a 50% improvement in performance-per-watt over RDNA 1, I really wanna see and compare RDNA 2's major architectural differences against RDNA 1.








 
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Lort

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560GBs / 52 = 10.77GBs per CU
448GBs / 36 = 12.44GBs per CU

CU fill rate is faster in the PS5 no matter how you spin it, even considering the faster pool only (which will not happen apart from your fantasy land)

As for CU counts, the PS5 is using a design that is part of the future roadmap for AMD, the Xbox is not. Deal with it.
Faster per CU isnt necessarily better ..more CU mean more processing .. if your running longer shaders ( which is what next gen games do) they will be TFlop limited not limited per CU.

Xbox design has more CU cache, more ray tracing compute and more total bandwidth (when coded properly scaled across CU xbox will use all the bandwidth anyway).

in short xbox has more power (TF) and more bandwidth (GB/s) = better graphics with more fx.
 
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pawel86ck

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Honestly at this point, as much as I'm excited to see and breakdown both consoles' overall architectures, no one's talking about the fact that AMD so far hasn't even done a full-on info blowout on RDNA 2's architecture. The only thing we know so far that's been confirmed by AMD is that RDNA 2 will have a 50% improvement in performance-per-watt over RDNA 1, I really wanna see and compare RDNA 2's major architectural differences against RDNA 1.








Exactly, we still dont know much about RDNA2 and how much both PS5 / XSX will differ from RDNA2 on PC.

Personally I want to know if both support VRS and AI upscaling.
 

ElectricMonk

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The only question I have is whether or not Cyberpunk 2077 nextgen version gets player controlled flying cars with all that SSD speed.

Iphone has one of the weakest smartphone hardware on the market. And when was the last time Apple admit how underpowered their machines are?

Very, very bad example. Apple does NOT market power because they would lose.
The Apple A series chips are better than the competition, and have been since the 64-bit transition. This reflects in benchmarks, feel free to browse Anandtech over the last decade. The iPhone could use more RAM for sure, but the SoC has been outstanding for a long long time.
 
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