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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

raul3d

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Mar 30, 2020
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I had assumed that the CUs working faster might have created a need for them to be fed faster.
Yes, your understanding is correct. The CUs in the PS5 run at a higher frequency, so they can do more operations in one second. The data for these operations has to come from memory, so the amount of memory each CU reads/writes is higher.

No, they shouldn't. And Sony doesn't need to clarify, it's pretty obvious the 16GB are split between the CPU and GPU.
And by "split" you mean "shared"? Because a split pool is the opposit.

Releasing games only on PS5 that would easily run on Ps4 to force your customers to buy a new console goes right in line with forcing them to buy remasters every generation.
I don't even know what to say... about which PS5 game running easily on PS4 you have to buy again are you talking exactly? And you really prefer last gen games with only enhanced graphics/audio over games that could be designed specifically for a newer generation of hardware?
 

Rudius

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With purchase of Insomniac, does Sony now hold the keys to Sunset Overdrive and Alan Wake? Not gonna lie, I'd like some remasters/ports or sequels tbh.

Oh, and on a related note, how are SEGA allowed to publish Bayonetta/Vanquish definitive editions on PS4/XB1, I thought Nintendo took over the Bayonetta license and owned B2 and B3 wholly?
I want a port of Stormland on the PS5.
 
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Neo Blaster

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So buying a new system to play new games is "completely counter to what gaming is about"?


This is some crazy preemptive damage control for the game fridge.
Didn't Spencer himself talk about XSX not having exclusives for two years? What happens after that time, when Xbox One S/X will have no new games, will generational exclusives matter again?
 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Didn't Spencer himself talked about XSX not having exclusives for two years? What happens after that time, when Xbox One S/X will have no new games, will generational exclusives matter again?
If he's saying that it's because the X1 will hold the XSX back at some point. Unlimited forwards compatibility is a myth.

It's kind of like how a PC from 10 years ago baby run the most demanding current gen games.
 

3liteDragon

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The Apple A series chips are better than the competition, and have been since the 64-bit transition. This reflects in benchmarks, feel free to browse Anandtech over the last decade. The iPhone could use more RAM for sure, but the SoC has been outstanding for a long long time.
Just wait until you see the A14 chips in action on this year's 5G iPhones, Apple's custom silicon engineering + 5nm. Just wish they would increase the RAM a bit for multitasking.
 
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ksdixon

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During "The Road to PS5" (starting from 27m10s) Cerny has clearly implied 36 CUs GPU was chosen for a BC reasons.

I think Cerny thought about building PS5 with 48 CUs at one point because he even make comparisons to 48 CUs on one of his slides. Good engineer however should listen to people and because more and more playstation fans wanted BC, so in the end 36 CU GPU design was chosen. Personally I would rather want PS5 without BC, but with stronger GPU. 48 CUs with 2200 MHz would give 13.5 TF and many fans including me were expecting 13 TF.
Couldn't they go to another higher number that is in paralelle wth 36CU to maintain BC? Or would have have pushed the price up by loads?

Personally I think a PS5 without at least PS4 BC would have been consumer suicide, but if the CUs have to be maintained, doesn't this mean every machine going forward is simillarly hamstrung rather than going all out?
 
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DaGwaphics

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Couldn't they go to another higher number that is in paralelle wth 36CU to maintain BC? Or would have have pushed the price up by loads?

Personally I think a PS5 without at least PS4 BC would have been consumer suicide, but if the CUs have to be maintained, doesn't this mean every machine going forward is simillarly hamstrung rather than going all out?
I read on here somewhere that it's not possible to utilize 37+ CUs, with that in mind I can't see the point in going further than 36. 3d stacking to 72 would be an absolute waste with one chip forced to act as a hot spare. /JK
 
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Bo_Hazem

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What you may be referring to is quantum tunnelling. Going to lengths smaller than 3nm the effects will be more apparent where electrons act more like waves than particles , in reality they're probability waves than actual point like particle (well actually everything is). Passing through barriers where they're not intended to, across parallel circuit tracks or jumping across the pn junction depletion layer within the transistor when it should be in an off state. Yes higher frequencies plays a part aswell. That's why the industry will be hitting against the laws of physics soon. That's as much detail I'm gonna go into it before I get things wrong, Google it its real interesting stuff ;)
7nm is still 70 angstroms so still thick in quantum terms, and remember the critical dimensions for FinFET is the width of the gate/ Semi is always improving the dielectric materials (High K) and performance of the thinnest gates.

The biggest factor is one of tolerance, as nothing actually looks like the FinFET model they are not perfect "blocks", deposition and etches are all cuves and have +/- to consider. Thats where EUV comes in which has been mentioned for RDNA2, probably improved ALD process as well.

Good luck anyone getting TSMC to spill the beams about 3-7 nm and EUV / gate specs of the transistors though, thats semi secret sauce..

One for saturday morings :messenger_beaming:
 

Neo_game

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Faster per CU isnt necessarily better ..more CU mean more processing .. if your running longer shaders ( which is what next gen games do) they will be TFlop limited not limited per CU.

Xbox design has more CU cache, more ray tracing compute and more total bandwidth (when coded properly scaled across CU xbox will use all the bandwidth anyway).

in short xbox has more power (TF) and more bandwidth (GB/s) = better graphics with more fx.
I used to think the same. This gen Xbox only had 32gb faster memory and the 8 gb DDR3 with 68gb/s was pathetic compared to GDDR5 176gb/s on PS4. Which is not 20 or 30% but 2.5x faster. Add to that PS4 had 40% theoritical faster gpu. But barely any multiplat game took advantage. PS4 was just having more pixels nothing else.

Releasing games only on PS5 that would easily run on Ps4 to force your customers to buy a new console goes right in line with forcing them to buy remasters every generation.
I think there were many games on Sony event last month that are also releasing on PS4. It would be pretty dumb idea to alienate 100 million users for not buying your software. Have you seen star citizen gameplay with HDD and SSD ? that itself has a considerably impact let alone the cpu, gpu and memory the next gen console offer
 
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BattleScar

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Just wait until you see the A14 chips in action on this year's 5G iPhones, Apple's custom silicon engineering + 5nm. Just wish they would increase the RAM a bit for multitasking.
There's a reason Apple's SoC's are so performant. Their cores are massive. IIRC, their A-series CPU cores are comparable, or maybe even bigger than Zen cores. Which is quite amusing to think about.
 
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I used to think the same. This gen Xbox only had 32gb faster memory and the 8 gb DDR3 with 68gb/s was pathetic compared to GDDR5 176gb/s on PS4. Which is not 20 or 30% but 2.5x faster. Add to that PS4 had 40% theoritical faster gpu. But barely any multiplat game took advantage. Xbox was just using a lot less pixels nothing else.



I think there were many games on Sony event last month that are also releasing on PS4. It would be pretty dumb idea to alienate 100 million users for not buying your software. Have you seen star citizen gameplay with HDD and SSD ? that alone has a considerably impact let alone the cpu, gpu and memory.
That is why the job of a platform holder, is to aid in transition to next gen as fast as possible, because third party isn't going to help in that regard. And it seems Xbox decided to not do this. I claim they didn't do this because they are late with the games, Xbox said they didn't do it because they intentionally want to be "consumer friendly".

One way or another, PS5 is going to to grow faster in adoption rate than Series X because Sony actually want people to buy the damn thing. And that means it makes less sense to make games on the next Gen Xbox because of a smaller pool of customers.
 
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jose4gg

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At the end regarding the Phill comments I feel that Sony is finishing the generation with:

- The last of US 2
- Ghost of Tsushima

There is no reason to criticize Sony with its approach to selling new Hardware, there isn't a valid critic that can be made of Sony this gen, they deliver everything, great hardware, great multi-platform games, great online, great services, great first-party...
 

Lort

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At the end regarding the Phill comments I feel that Sony is finishing the generation with:

- The last of US 2
- Ghost of Tsushima

There is no reason to criticize Sony with its approach to selling new Hardware, there isn't a valid critic that can be made of Sony this gen, they deliver everything, great hardware, great multi-platform games, great online, great services, great first-party...
... destiny and other anti consumer exclusive content deals
... pro4 pro issues, noise and false 4k gaming advertising
... save the children excuse then capitulation for cross play with Rocket League and Fortnite
 
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kensama

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... destiny and other anti consumer exclusive content deals
... pro4 pro issues, noise and false 4k gaming advertising
... save the children excuse then capitulation for cross play with Rocket League and Fortnite

Seems clear you are not there to speculate on a technical point but console warioring (reported you and will ignore you)
You don't bring something to the discussion.
 

Lort

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Seems clear you are not there to speculate on a technical point but console warioring (reported you and will ignore you)
You don't bring something to the discussion.
Lol ... he asked a question if there is any valid criticism of Sony this generation and i pointed out some. How is correcting fanboy posts console waring? Im guessing you also didnt read my other posts ... where i point out specifically in technical detail how the consoles actually work.
 

lepermessiah

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jose4gg

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... destiny and other anti consumer exclusive content deals
... pro4 pro issues, noise and false 4k gaming advertising
... save the children excuse then capitulation for cross play with Rocket League and Fortnite
- Yeah, Destiny is a good example of the anti-customer exclusive deal (I DONT AGREE WITH THAT YOU CAN CRITICIZE IT), just keep the same energy with MS and Tom Raider...

- Pro has noise issues, but it isn't like it does not work... or like it crashes, (Although, again this is a valid critic)

- Crossplay, yea, I remember the good old days with Xbox 360 and PS3... when everything was inverted...

With that being said, My first point is still valid, you cannot criticize Sony this generation like they didn't deliver, of course, you will find bad things here and there, but if they want to make more profit, it isn't like they stole us with the PS4, and like they are trying to steal again...
 

Snowdonhoffen

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At the end regarding the Phill comments I feel that Sony is finishing the generation with:

- The last of US 2
- Ghost of Tsushima

There is no reason to criticize Sony with its approach to selling new Hardware, there isn't a valid critic that can be made of Sony this gen, they deliver everything, great hardware, great multi-platform games, great online, great services, great first-party...
But I can't play my 25 year old games there! and only a bunch of their exclusive titles are on PC and we have to remember that's anticonsumer! :mad:
 

Dolomite

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One way or another, PS5 is going to to grow faster in adoption rate than Series X because Sony actually want people to buy the damn thing. And that means it makes less sense to make games on the next Gen Xbox because of a smaller pool of customers.
Don't disagree here. Not that MS doesn't want to sell consoles, or more than their competitors, they are in a sweet spot in that they are building Xbox into an eco system. I don't need to buy a physical console to play next gen games day and date on my iPad? I can play the same game on my xss, or a 3080i without any extra work for me? The only thing I disagree with is the idea that this will lead to less Devs choosing to release on the xsx. It's literally releasing the game to a larger pool than a closed Single console ecosystem
 

Neo_game

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Lol ... he asked a question if there is any valid criticism of Sony this generation and i pointed out some. How is correcting fanboy posts console waring? Im guessing you also didnt read my other posts ... where i point out specifically in technical detail how the consoles actually work.
Xbox will have advantage especially for couple of years but the 18% gfx and 25% faster RAM for 10gb is quite small compared to current gen PS4 and Xbox differences. Since we know that current gen except the resolution and slightly stable fps on PS4 for 60fps games was the only difference. It is easy to predict that next gen the gap is going to even smaller.
 

SlimySnake

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this is silly. Ms did do a benchmark of xsx gpu and said it's comparable to a 2080, not 2080ti which is 35% faster.

12 rdna 2.0 tflops are not equivalent to 17 Turing tflops. Gears benchmark done by ms themselves proves this.

Using the xsx ssd as base makes sense but it doesn't come close to the build needed to match ps5 specs.
 
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ToadMan

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Since both are using a shared pool for CPU and GPU (MS has been very clear, Sony not as much, but I'm going to assume if they had a secondary pool for games they would have mentioned it), you can't really take the max number and tag it to the GPU. Also, the higher clock speeds should make the Sony CUs a bit thirstier per second right?
This is the notional bandwidth per CU - it's not about the quantity of RAM so these numbers hold whether accessing 1Gb or 10Gb.

If one wants to go beyond 10Gb (who are we kidding, of course devs want to go beyond 10Gb - data expands to the storage available + ~20% in my experience), the xsex number reduces because the bandwidth on GPU access above 10Gb is just 320Gb/s.

But there is a hole in those numbers - they don't account for GPU clock. And the faster the clock the more times a GPU could request VRAM data in a given time frame (ignoring cache efficiency for now).

What we do have are those Tflops numbers which are clock and CU processors all wrapped up in one convenient number.

448 / 10.3 = 43.5 Gbs/Tflop for 16Gb on PS5

560 / 12.1 = 46.3 Gbs/tflop for 10Gb on xsex (GPU optimal mem)
320 / 12.1 = 26.4 Gbs/tflop for 6Gb (or 16Gb for CPU) on xsex (gpu non - optimal mem)
(560+320/2) / 12.1 = 36.4 gbs/tflop average over 16Gb (non GPU optimal mem)

EDIT : Actually that last number can be broken down better. Let’s say the 10Gb is filled and 10% of the slower memory is to be used for GPU data :
(46.3x9 + 26.4) / 10 = 44.31Gbs/tflop average.

So that 46.3 number looks a bit healthier for xsex for the gpu optimal 10Gb by virtue of it's lower clock speed.

46.3 > 43.5 by around 6%. However 12.1 > 10.3 by 18%.

Also 36.4 < 43.5 by about 18% - that 26.4 number really is a big drag. Devs will avoid going into that upper 6Gb for GPU access at all costs...

So yeah it's fair to say the xsex bandwidth doesn't scale quite as well as the PS5 on 10Gb (and much worse across 16Gb) but I wouldn't call it a major problem from a user perspective - not to the extent of the xb1 or PS3 memory where it caused obervable differences in game.

It is a problem for devs though - as soon as they have to think about where data goes in memory it's a memory management problem. As it stands on PS5 they consider caches, VRAM and SSD while on xsex they consider caches, VRAM (fast), VRAM (slow) and SSD. One extra thing to solve and optimise in code, but this is a far less impactful difference compared to some previous gens.

I don't like the "deal with it" at the end of the OP though. I dont remember Newton, Eratosthenes or Einstein writing "deal with it" at the end of their dissertations lol.
 
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Delpij

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Man whatever makes you feel better and fits the narrative. I know better than to waste my time arguing with someone making a "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" kind of argument. Have a good one.
I am not here for a fight man, I was just developing my point since your comment felt off to me.
There is indeed - no - empirical evidence available here, only the authority of Tim Sweeney on the matter.
It's my right to challenge his half-baked statement about nonchalantly raising $250M, based on the term sheets I personally went through, and rumours hinting at an Epic fundraising campaign for the past 6 months.

You do you.
 
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sinnergy

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This is the notional bandwidth per CU - it's not about the quantity of RAM so these numbers hold whether accessing 1Gb or 10Gb.

If one wants to go beyond 10Gb (who are we kidding, of course devs want to go beyond 10Gb - data expands to the storage available + ~20% in my experience), the xsex number reduces because the bandwidth on GPU access above 10Gb is just 320Gb/s.

But there is a hole in those numbers - they don't account for GPU clock. And the faster the clock the more times a GPU could request VRAM data in a given time frame (ignoring cache efficiency for now).

What we do have are those Tflops numbers which are clock and CU processors all wrapped up in one convenient number.

448 / 10.3 = 43.5 Gbs/Tflop for 16Gb on PS5

560 / 12.1 = 46.3 Gbs/tflop for 10Gb on xsex (GPU optimal mem)
320 / 12.1 = 26.4 Gbs/tflop for 6Gb (or 16Gb for CPU) on xsex (gpu non - optimal mem)
(560+320/2) / 12.1 = 36.4 gbs/tflop average over 16Gb (non GPU optimal mem)

So that 46.3 number looks a bit healthier for xsex for the gpu optimal 10Gb by virtue of it's lower clock speed.

46.3 > 43.5 by around 6%. However 12.1 > 10.3 by 18%.

Also 36.4 < 43.5 by about 18% - that 26.4 number really is a big drag. Devs will avoid going into that upper 6Gb for GPU access at all costs...

So yeah it's fair to say the xsex bandwidth doesn't scale quite as well as the PS5 on 10Gb (and much worse across 16Gb) but I wouldn't call it a major problem from a user perspective - not to the extent of the xb1 or PS3 memory where it caused obervable differences in game.

It is a problem for devs though - as soon as they have to think about where data goes in memory it's a memory management problem. As it stands on PS5 they consider caches, VRAM and SSD while on xsex they consider caches, VRAM (fast), VRAM (slow) and SSD. One extra thing to solve and optimise in code, but this is a far less impactful difference compared to some previous gens.

I don't like the "deal with it" at the end of the OP though. I dont remember Newton, Eratosthenes or Einstein writing "deal with it" at the end of their dissertations lol.
As far as I know devs would hardly have to manage , as the same setup is in today’s AMD graphics cards. Also I read reports the system handles most of what goes in the slower ram.
 
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Madjako

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I'm on the same wagon as you here.
And don't forget that thanks to the speed of the ssd, with ps5 you will basically have 16Gb of data on screen, whereas with the Xbox SX you will only have 8 Gb. (I know I'm simplifying things here but you got the idea).
That's why even if you'll have a little less pixels on screen, you will have better textures, details,.. With the PS5.

Ps: it's a reply to a previous post but it seems like I don't know how to quote 😂
 
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Cloaka

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Jun 28, 2020
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This is the notional bandwidth per CU - it's not about the quantity of RAM so these numbers hold whether accessing 1Gb or 10Gb.

If one wants to go beyond 10Gb (who are we kidding, of course devs want to go beyond 10Gb - data expands to the storage available + ~20% in my experience), the xsex number reduces because the bandwidth on GPU access above 10Gb is just 320Gb/s.

But there is a hole in those numbers - they don't account for GPU clock. And the faster the clock the more times a GPU could request VRAM data in a given time frame (ignoring cache efficiency for now).

What we do have are those Tflops numbers which are clock and CU processors all wrapped up in one convenient number.

448 / 10.3 = 43.5 Gbs/Tflop for 16Gb on PS5

560 / 12.1 = 46.3 Gbs/tflop for 10Gb on xsex (GPU optimal mem)
320 / 12.1 = 26.4 Gbs/tflop for 6Gb (or 16Gb for CPU) on xsex (gpu non - optimal mem)
(560+320/2) / 12.1 = 36.4 gbs/tflop average over 16Gb (non GPU optimal mem)

So that 46.3 number looks a bit healthier for xsex for the gpu optimal 10Gb by virtue of it's lower clock speed.

46.3 > 43.5 by around 6%. However 12.1 > 10.3 by 18%.

Also 36.4 < 43.5 by about 18% - that 26.4 number really is a big drag. Devs will avoid going into that upper 6Gb for GPU access at all costs...

So yeah it's fair to say the xsex bandwidth doesn't scale quite as well as the PS5 on 10Gb (and much worse across 16Gb) but I wouldn't call it a major problem from a user perspective - not to the extent of the xb1 or PS3 memory where it caused obervable differences in game.

It is a problem for devs though - as soon as they have to think about where data goes in memory it's a memory management problem. As it stands on PS5 they consider caches, VRAM and SSD while on xsex they consider caches, VRAM (fast), VRAM (slow) and SSD. One extra thing to solve and optimise in code, but this is a far less impactful difference compared to some previous gens.

I don't like the "deal with it" at the end of the OP though. I dont remember Newton, Eratosthenes or Einstein writing "deal with it" at the end of their dissertations lol.
Wrong :)
 

sinnergy

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I'm on the same wagon as you here.
And don't forget that thanks to the speed of the ssd, with ps5 you will basically have 16Gb of data on screen, whereas with the Xbox SX you will only have 8 Gb. (I know I'm simplifying things here but you got the idea).
That's why even if you'll have a little less pixels on screen, you will have better textures, details,.. With the PS5.

Ps: it's a reply to a previous post but it seems like I don't know how to quote 😂
Both are from the same time as the technology they are created with. So differences are going to be minimal, the competition doesn’t have some magical jar of top secret tech laying around, nothing as big as you are suggesting in your post .
 
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Cloaka

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560GBs / 52 = 10.77GBs per CU
448GBs / 36 = 12.44GBs per CU

CU fill rate is faster in the PS5 no matter how you spin it, even considering the faster pool only (which will not happen apart from your fantasy land)

As for CU counts, the PS5 is using a design that is part of the future roadmap for AMD, the Xbox is not. Deal with it.

Stop this nonsense fakes of "FUTURE AMD TECH" inside PS5.
You guys are acting like Misterxmedia.
 

pawel86ck

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Well, we DO have some people who claim that PS5 is going to be 6TFs when using RT, while the Series X will be like, 25TFs, so ...

According to MS XSX has indeed 25TF in totall, 12TF raster + 13TF RT. But I'm guessing HW RT implementation is the same on PS5, so it's 10TF+ HW RT performance.
 
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ToadMan

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As far as I know devs would hardly have to manage , as the same setup is in today’s AMD graphics cards. Also I read reports the system handles most of what goes in the slower ram.
AMD GPUs have a single block of unified VRAM - this isn't the same scenario.

The "system" handles what goes in all RAM - but the algorithms for this are still manageable by developers. You may be referring to the O/S - that lives in the slow RAM too but the footprint for PS5/Xsex is expected to be about the same so probably makes little difference for comparison purpose.
 
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Don't disagree here. Not that MS doesn't want to sell consoles, or more than their competitors, they are in a sweet spot in that they are building Xbox into an eco system. I don't need to buy a physical console to play next gen games day and date on my iPad? I can play the same game on my xss, or a 3080i without any extra work for me? The only thing I disagree with is the idea that this will lead to less Devs choosing to release on the xsx. It's literally releasing the game to a larger pool than a closed Single console ecosystem
Well we will see if the Windows Store actually get anywhere.

Further, the more Xbox acts like a Third Party, the less profitable it is to actually make and sell consoles. There is a threshold of hardware sales where if you drop below that point, it no longer makes sense to design the next console. Console hardware dsles is barely making money as it is, if you make it an even smaller part of XBOX's revinue then why even have it?

Well, we will see where the imaginary pool of PC gamers buying from the Windows Store will happen next gen or not.
 

Metroiddarks

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I am agree with him regarding that build a pc with similar performance will be just incredible expensive right now
just why 2 TB of storage ? also at least they think the studios will not use the bandwidth with compression in the
consoles he only have two options:

1)A CPU with more cores for decompression
2)A better SSD

Regarding the GPU we need to see how much the IPC in RDNA 2 will improve but even if the consoles were RDNA the
performance will around RTX 2070-2080 so any small increase in IPC can improve the performance to 2070 super -2080 super.

The think I love of this new gen is how the gap agains PC will be reduced and even exceed in some parts, this will
make the PC accelerated again (in game performance) and those monitors 4k or even 2k with high refresh rates
will pass for a hard time this couple of years with the new gen of games.
 
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pasterpl

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So buying a new system to play new games is "completely counter to what gaming is about"?


This is some crazy preemptive damage control for the game fridge.
we might not agree with him, but this is, unfortunately, what is becoming more and more popular, that’s why ps5 event started with GTAV, that’s why another game presented was remaster of an old game (DS), and lots of games were actually cross gen.

in addition, I tend to think that if a game is targeting pc in addition To console, the Game design will be limited by hdd (Ken, project Athia etc.)

I don’t like this approach myself :messenger_weary: