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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Tqaulity

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Oct 26, 2018
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Allow me to shed some more light on a general narrative I'm hearing. For the folks that think it's crazy to believe that the next gen consoles can have a GPU with 1080TI - RTX 2080 level power, the main reason why it's so hard to believe seem to be that that "consoles never have high end GPUs at launch" and that those GPUs are too expensive or too large to fit in a console.. That's simply not true. Not sure where that narrative came from but I believe it's because people simply aren't educated on past console hardware. Let's look at some examples from past consoles and see where their respective hardware ranked at launch.

Most consoles in the past cannot be directly compared to PCs of the time since many of them used Bespoke custom hardware that had no PC or Arcade equivalent. So let's just focus on several of the consoles that did have hardware comparable to others out there:

ConsoleRelease DateGPUHigh End PC at that timeSummary
DreamcastDec 1998 (JP)PowerVR CLX2
(100 MHz)
1.4 GFLOPS

GPU: Vodoo3
Released late 1998
First, Dreamcast hardware was nearly identical to the Naomi arcade board that sold for ~$2000 (over 10x the price of the $199 Dreamcast). They had the exact same CPU and GPU but the Naomi had slightly faster GPU clocks and more memory and bandwidth.

In terms of PC comparison:
"In most ways, the Dreamcast was generally the most powerful home system during 1998–1999, outperforming high-end PC hardware in most ways during that era.[2] The Dreamcast's HitachiSH-4 CPU calculates 3D graphics several times faster than a Pentium II from 1998,[2] and faster than a Pentium III and NVIDIAGeForce 256 from 1999. The Dreamcast's PowerVR CLX2 GPU, due to its tiled rendering architecture, also has has a higher fillrate and faster polygon rendering throughput than a Voodoo3 and GeForce 256 from 1999 "

Link: https://segaretro.org/Sega_Dreamcast/Hardware_comparison
Xbox (OG)Nov 2001Custom Nvidia Geforce3 (233mhz)
7.3 GFLOPs

GPU: Geforce3
(200Mz)
Released Feb 2001

Xbox's GPU "Performance lies between a Geforce 3 Series GPU and a Geforce 4 Series GPU. This is due to the added vertex shader present on the ASIC, thus doubling the vertex output compared to Geforce 3 ASICs. Clock speed is the same as the original Geforce 3 series GPU (200mhz) thus slower than Geforce 4 series starting at 250mhz."

The Geforce4 did not launch until Feb 2002 in the PC space.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_technical_specifications
Xbox 360Nov 2005Custom AMD "Xenos"
(500 Mhhz)

240 GFLOPs

48 Unified Shader Pipelines

First GPU with Unified shaders

*Similar to X1900 XT PC GPU
GPU: AMD X1800 XT
(500Mz)
Released Oct 2005

16 pixel & 8 Vertex pipelines
While based on the X1800 XT GPU, the Xenos chip went well beyond it and introduced a unified shader pipeline with 48 pipelines as well as a EDRAM daughter die on the chip for increased bandwidth. The PC did not see these features until the X1900 XT released in Jan 2006

[Xenos] "is in many ways related to the R520 architecture and therefore very similar to an ATI Radeon X1900 series of PC graphics cards as far as features and performance are concerned. However, the Xenos introduced new design ideas that were later adopted in the TeraScale microarchitecture, such as the unified shader architecture. The package contains two separate dies, the GPU and an eDRAM (manufactured by NEC), featuring a total of 337 million transistors."

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenos_(graphics_chip)
PS3Nov 2006Custom Nvidia "RSX"
(550Mhz)

192 GFLOPS
GPU: 7900 GTX
(650Mhxz)

Released March 2006

"It is a GPU based on the Nvidia 7800GTX graphics processor and, according to Nvidia, is a G70/G71 (previously known as NV47) hybrid architecture with some modifications"

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX_Reality_Synthesizer

**Recall that the PS3 was supposed to launch in 2005. It was delayed a year because the software wasn't ready. However the hardware was already locked as of 2005. Thus, if you look at the RSX in comparison to the base 7800 GTX released in 2005 it went beyond it in many ways. If you add in the additional throughput to the PS3 graphics via the Cell processing, and you get graphical performance well beyond the 7800 and even the 7900.

So what is the point here? Key takeaways:
  • Consoles have traditionally pushed the envelope on what is technically feasible at the time of its launch and often exceeded any PC hardware available
  • The major exception to this trend is with the PS4 and Xbox One. But that is the exception and not the norm
  • Starting with the Dreamcast back in 1998, we saw console hardware roughly equivalent to arcade hardware that cost 10x it's price (console economics are not the same as arcade and PC). It also destroyed PC equivalent hardware of that time and that released over a year after it's release
  • Both the Xbox and Xbox 360 GPUs had features that no PC GPU had at the time and their launches
  • If the PS3 GPU (despite it's reputation for being underpowered) also features technologies from both the 7800 (released in 2005) and the 7900 series (releases in 2006). If it had released on time (in 2005) it's GPU would have been superior to the 7800 and combined with the cell, it's graphical capabilities exceeded anything in the PC space for several years
  • I only focused on the GPU but let's not forget all of the cutting edge tech featured on the CPU side as well, particularly for the PlayStation consoles (PS2 Emotion Engine and PS3 Cell far eclipsed anything commercially available on PC)
All of this is to say to those that think a 1080TI or RTX 2080 is too expensive or big or out of reach etc, look at the past and we see there is a precedence for pushing boundaries not thought feasible in a console. Not to mention that honestly a 1080TI/RTX 2080 level by end of 2020 will NOT be high end but rather considered mid-range on the spectrum of available GPUs. It still will be a tremendous step up from the current gen console GPUs.

My point is that looking at what AMD has in store next year with RDNA2 will be representative of what we'll get next gen. Consoles have traditionally been cutting edge with tech released in the same year the console is release AND often pulled features from hardware that would not be released until well after the console is released. By the way, this trend did in fact continue this generation with the PS4 and PS4 Pro in particular where the PS4's 8 ACE engines did not see release in the PC space until the r290X and the PS4 Pro's GPU leveraged features of both Polaris and Vega architectures.

Again, RTX2070 Super/RTX 2080 is not out of reach at all for late 2020! You'll see :)
 

DeepEnigma

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It is just the exact same thing we heard in 2013. Now I don't know which is more powerful or not (nor does it matter to me personally in the end), we only have these leaks from supposed verified people, but as it stands, it is identical to the talk back then.
 

Gamernyc78

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Is this the DX12 thing all over again (that did nothing of the sort this gen)? Reads that way.
You know the deal. Leprechauns, unicorns, pots of gold and green clover status lol. I told ppl dx12 would bridge no power gap and not make miracles but when u blindly love something you cant tell ppl nothing.
 

Gamernyc78

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DX12 and Vulcan allowed PCs to stay relevant when the more powerful multiplatform console games were released.
We are obviously talking in the context of console gaming and ppls hyperbolic bs statements. Most of us here know what dx12 was used for and why it was created.

You know exactly the narrative we are referring to so idk why this response.
 
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psorcerer

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The narrative at the time from even Albert Penello doing his damage control, was that it was going to bridge the power gap between the XB1 and PS4... after the power of the cloud was failing to convince people of course.
Ah. Cool.
But we all know that the power gap was created in the end of the Xbox days by selling all the first party game studios...
 

ANIMAL1975

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One toolchain is more mature than the other, so maybe when both are mature they will have equal performance.

More like: "PS5 performs better right now, but don't read too much into it".
The narrative at the time from even Albert Penello doing his damage control, was that it was going to bridge the power gap between the XB1 and PS4... after the power of the cloud was failing to convince people of course.
I'm lost here guys help... who's the more mature, Penello? And who's the other toolchain!?
 

llien

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You know guys, all this "push TDP into the sky" concept starts to bother me, as a person who skipped PS4 Pro, even though it was nearly twice as powerful than PS4, because of a loud cooler.

5700 level GPU is better than good two thirds of the PC market, multiplied by consoles being optimized for, I'd rather have quieter console, than hot loud box that is 20% faster.
 

quest

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You know guys, all this "push TDP into the sky" concept starts to bother me, as a person who skipped PS4 Pro, even though it was nearly twice as powerful than PS4, because of a loud cooler.

5700 level GPU is better than good two thirds of the PC market, multiplied by consoles being optimized for, I'd rather have quieter console, than hot loud box that is 20% faster.
It's about the cooling system and little luck. My xbox one x is damn quiet I rarely ever hear it. I hear my launch ps4 more than my one x. If they put money into a good cooling system and you don't put it in a closed area not going to be a 747. That was Sony cheaping out to make a few more dollars.
 

SlimySnake

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You know guys, all this "push TDP into the sky" concept starts to bother me, as a person who skipped PS4 Pro, even though it was nearly twice as powerful than PS4, because of a loud cooler.

5700 level GPU is better than good two thirds of the PC market, multiplied by consoles being optimized for, I'd rather have quieter console, than hot loud box that is 20% faster.
vapor chamber cooling should keep things quiet. my x1x is 170w but much quieter than my pro which is only 150w and 40% less powerful.
 

FrostyJ93

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I can see dualshock 4 and Xbox one controllers sticking around. Dualshock 5 and xbox scarlett controllers are gping to be souoed up versions of said controllers and the consoles will be compatible anyway. Can see them dropping down to $40 permanently and be the "cheap" controllers.
 

Negotiator

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The narrative at the time from even Albert Penello doing his damage control, was that it was going to bridge the power gap between the XB1 and PS4... after the power of the cloud was failing to convince people of course.
And yet, people (even at DF!) bought his 8TF nonsense.

MS has lots of employees, doesn't mean all of them deserve to be taken seriously. Penello has dug his own grave.

You know guys, all this "push TDP into the sky" concept starts to bother me, as a person who skipped PS4 Pro, even though it was nearly twice as powerful than PS4, because of a loud cooler.

5700 level GPU is better than good two thirds of the PC market, multiplied by consoles being optimized for, I'd rather have quieter console, than hot loud box that is 20% faster.
You can always wait for a 5nm die shrink (PS5 Slim)... I'll gladly take a noisy 14TF box over a silent 10TF one. Better have a higher baseline from the get-go and then take advantage of (5/3nm) die shrinks.
 

VFXVeteran

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The port begging is so strong with you. You must really want to play Sony games.
That or you just ignore what's happening currently with PS ports coming to PC? I'll be glad when all the exclusives are revealed to have been developed on PC anyway and will be released as a "port". I guess then we'll all be on the same page and can talk about games instead of hardware.. can't wait.
 

Negotiator

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That or you just ignore what's happening currently with PS ports coming to PC? I'll be glad when all the exclusives are revealed to have been developed on PC anyway and will be released as a "port". I guess then we'll all be on the same page and can talk about games instead of hardware.. can't wait.
Can't wait to show off your PCMR prowess? Was that your agenda all along?
 

Imtjnotu

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That or you just ignore what's happening currently with PS ports coming to PC? I'll be glad when all the exclusives are revealed to have been developed on PC anyway and will be released as a "port". I guess then we'll all be on the same page and can talk about games instead of hardware.. can't wait.
Wait.... So because death stranding is coming to pc, you're assuming all first party games will be on pc now....?
 

FrostyJ93

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Oh they'll fix that. Just be prepared to pay even more money for you home internet and mobile data plans :p.
 
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jonnyp

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Data caps are still a thing? I have never had one, well except from my parents when we had a 56k modem :p
 

BattleScar

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All current games on PS and Xbox are developed on PCs first -- including 1st party games. They get ported down to the consoles.
Well yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna end up on PC. Multiplatform games, certainly. Flagship properties like TLOU or whatever, probably won't.

Could change, but it's not exactly a cut-and-dry certainty.
 

bhunachicken

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Apr 11, 2018
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That or you just ignore what's happening currently with PS ports coming to PC?
Dude, seriously - you've had your fun, but can you please now fuck off out of this thread with your stupid PS games coming to PC bullshit?!

Sony won't even put their big hitters on PS Now right away because it makes no business sense. And here's you saying they're going to put all their games on a rival platform? Yeah, that makes sense. Invest billions of dollars in a games console all to tell gamers they don't actually need to buy it because the computer they've got will play them anyway.

Great way to put oneself out of business, fast. What about that don't you understand?

Fucking idiot.
 

bitbydeath

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Dude, seriously - you've had your fun, but can you please now fuck off out of this thread with your stupid PS games coming to PC bullshit?!

Sony won't even put their big hitters on PS Now right away because it makes no business sense. And here's you saying they're going to put all their games on a rival platform? Yeah, that makes sense. Invest billions of dollars in a games console all to tell gamers they don't actually need to buy it because the computer they've got will play them anyway.

Great way to put oneself out of business, fast. What about that don't you understand?

Fucking idiot.
I think he’s just shit stirring. Can’t be serious with some of the things he writes.
 

Negotiator

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All current games on PS and Xbox are developed on PCs first -- including 1st party games. They get ported down to the consoles.
They've been using PC workstations for game development for a long time, including early PS3 games such as Uncharted 1. This argument has zero relevance.

ND also uses Linux, despite the fact Sony consoles use FreeBSD. This is also irrelevant.

This vfx guy gets shit on here, and on era. NO ONE agrees with him lol He has a thread over there were he believes 5 games are already next gen lol
Good thing I rarely visit ERA.

His smug attitude is what rubs people the wrong way. "Look who I am in the VFX industry, I've got many friends in companies etc etc."

I still remember PCMR peeps thinking that Black Flag at 4k60 with 16x AF qualifies as a next-gen game and then came AC Unity. It happens every gen like clockwork!
 

bitbydeath

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Pastebin time, I wonder if this one month exclusivity rumour that keeps floating about is just due to PS5 releasing one month earlier.

-Dates/Specs

1. Trailer or another info/content about GTA VI - December 3, maybe little bit later in 2019

2. Second trailer around March 2020

3. Release GTA VI - November 2020

4. PS5 + GTA VI = Bundle

5. One month exclusive for Sony PS5

6. GTA Online II will appear later with release on new XBOX and PC, yes PC!

-Gameplay
1. Vice and Liberty City
2. One protagonist
3. Dynamic weather: Snow, Hurricanes etc
4. Story Chapter System
6. Dynamic weight and hair system
7. Clothes can be ruined
8. Six stars, police more aggressive
9. More animals
10. Side heists in open world
11. You can grab only two guns, similar go rdr2
12. Story Flashbacks to 19**
 

Imtjnotu

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Negotiator

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What madness is this:
Of course I played them.. I'm finishing up TLOU:Remastered now. I still dont' think ND are "god programmers that can do the impossible where many other studios have failed.." A company doesn't get that kind of assumption from me until I actually "see" the game.

Anyway.. UC4 will use TLOU graphics engine (which is dated btw) so I don't expect mind-boggling technology. ND has always had talented artists though -- able to make low-end tech look really good. But that doesn't mean they are the leaders in graphics technology.
Seriously?! You've got "friends" at ND? Imaginary friends don't count as real ones.

I guess you don't really know where they come from:



Educate yourself before trying to "educate" others. You know jackshit about real-time graphics. Period.

To top it off, you really seem to hate low-level programming/optimization:

That's exactly what ND programmers do and they've been doing it since the PS1 era! Watch the video above, especially the part where they talk about assembly (aka nitty-gritty) programming.

TBH, you seem like a butthurt wannabe game developer to me. I guess that explains your beef with fixed-spec platforms and 1st party studios. You're clearly not fit for this job. It's OK boi, not every job is for everyone.
 
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DeepEnigma

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What madness is this:

Seriously?! You've got "friends" at ND? Imaginary friends don't count as real ones.

I guess you don't really know where they come from:



Educate yourself before trying to "educate" others. You know jackshit about real-time graphics. Period.

To top it off, you really seem to hate low-level programming/optimization:

That's exactly what ND programmers do and they've been doing it since the PS1 era! Watch the video above, especially the part where they talk about assembly (aka nitty-gritty) programming.

TBH, you seem like a butthurt wannabe game developer to me. I guess that explains your beef with fixed-spec platforms and 1st party studios. You're clearly not fit for this job. It's OK boi, not every job is for everyone.
Holy shit.

:messenger_weary: :messenger_ok:
 

VFXVeteran

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What madness is this:

Seriously?! You've got "friends" at ND?
I got friends all over the gaming space. Yes and at ND.


Educate yourself before trying to "educate" others. You know jackshit about real-time graphics. Period.
You are right. I don't know anything.

To top it off, you really seem to hate low-level programming/optimization:
No where in that thread do I mention not liking low-level programming or optimization. And that was nearly 3yrs ago! LOL!

TBH, you seem like a butthurt wannabe game developer to me. I guess that explains your beef with fixed-spec platforms and 1st party studios. You're clearly not fit for this job. It's OK boi, not every job is for everyone.
I started at Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in 2017 and my role was working on their real-time 3D graphics engine (tactical terrain visualization system) using OpenSceneGraph and a lot of other various libraries, writing shaders, troubleshooting using PerfStudio, etc.. All learned with relative ease. Now working on embedded missile hardware using low level linux drivers, learning GPS, Inertial navigation systems, target acquisition, etc.. using design patterns and hardware in-the-loop programming. I think I'm ok with saying I'm more than qualified..

I'll stick to being the dumb rocket scientist. I haven't gotten fired yet.
 
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Darklor01

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Well yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna end up on PC. Multiplatform games, certainly. Flagship properties like TLOU or whatever, probably won't.

Could change, but it's not exactly a cut-and-dry certainty.
I agree with you. But it’s not just multiplats. It’s 99% that way with rare exceptions. Some studios like Quantic Dream put formerly console specific titles on PC, but I think that’s because they are now a multiplat studio after the fact and decided to bring their titles to PC as well as PlayStation.

Games have always been developed on PC and ported to consoles. History has shown that the main flagship titles from first party remained on the consoles. Computers are properly suited to game development, Not dev kits. Dev kits, to my understanding, are used in conjunction with development PCs to test builds for functionality on close to retail hardware.
 

bitbydeath

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On top of that, Control’s developers at Remedy reveal what they think of PS5.


The SSD will allow for “more data at runtime, allowing us to have much more detail in the game worlds than before,” says technical director Mika Vehkala before tempering expectations: “You could do things faster or you could add more content and run things the same 30fps as before; often times it is the latter,”
 
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DemonCleaner

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Along with TPU and Guru3d, your article has plenty of data for ~10TF Navi performance, and it's still not equal to 2080 in overall relative performance.

Not sure where the 2080 is coming from all of a sudden - you were taling about a 2060S - but so be it.


Different games leverage different architectures differently. So you can't really say the card is using 10TF worth of perfomance because its boosts to around 2000Mhz in Anno 1800. In fact it is mot likely boosting this high in this particular game, because the game engine isn't capable of feeding all CUs evenly and therefore the card is producing less heat -> power and/or thermal limits of the GPU are reached later on-> therefore the boost algorithm tells the card to boost higher.

so when bitbydeath is refering to something like 15% more RDNA TFlops, he is most likely thinking of a GPU with 15% more shaders at aquivalent clock speeds and/or measures to avoid the hypothetical GPU running into bottlenecks which prohibit linear scaling (whats clearly happening with your example).