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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

SSfox

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Jan 7, 2018
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With all this next gen talk with people wanting to know price and release date, and here i mostly want to know when Demon Souls and GT7 release dates will be. To me this is the games that will truly start next gen

Also Bonus: Can't wait for Next Gen Chun Li

 

HAL-01

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Aug 23, 2016
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I call that a pure bullshit example. a few moments before, he was saying that without variable clocking and redirecting power from cpu to gpu, even 2Ghz was an unreachable target with fixed frequencies.
somehow now everybody believes that ps5 will have a constant 2.23Ghz gpu while the cpu will run at full speed too.

btw he also says that running the CPU at a constant 3Ghz was a headache without variable frequency,
and by now I think pretty much all of you must understand that this was bullshit too, right?
or, to put it more "elegantly", since that's what people seem to prefer, if microsoft can run at a constant 3.6Ghz, while sony "was having headaches" at a constant 3.0Ghz,
at best case scenario this leaves way too much to be desired about their unknown "elegant cooling system", doesn't it?

finally, as I have already written numerous times, if variable clock speed meant "couple of % reduction, like 44.6Mhz" like you say -or even 63Mhz (I give you a full 1% reduction more),
then sony would have simply locked the GPU at 2.1-2.2Ghz and would have called it a day.

my 2c's
Whats more likely
-Playstation's top system architect makes no sense and contradicts himself explaining his own architecture

or

-Internet rando didn't really understand but tries to play computer scientist anyway
 
Jun 13, 2020
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Whats more likely
-Playstation's top system architect makes no sense and contradicts himself explaining his own architecture

or

-Internet rando didn't really understand but tries to play computer scientist anyway
yes, which one of those two do you think is happening?
but watch the video before answering, because it seems to me most people aren't good at understanding what they hear..

oh, and I am just quoting playstation's top system architect btw, just in case you missed that too.
 

Setsuna Mudou

Member
May 29, 2020
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yes, which one of those two do you think is happening?
but watch the video before answering, because it seems to me most people aren't good at understanding what they hear..

oh, and I am just quoting playstation's top system architect btw, just in case you missed that too.
Have you considered the possibility, remote as it may seem, you were actually the one misinterpreting what was presented by Cerny?

I know it seems crazy, but just give it a try :)
 

sircaw

has bigger MS points balance than reaction score.
Jul 3, 2019
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A local pond.
Have you considered the possibility, remote as it may seem, you were actually the one misinterpreting what was presented by Cerny?

I know it seems crazy, but just give it a try :)
that's a fish you are talking too, WE DONT MAKE MISTAKES, EVER.

INFUCKINGFALLABLE ----new word for today.

I will shut it now, i know, i am not helping, sorry, bad. "lollipop_disappointed:
 

Snowdonhoffen

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Apr 27, 2020
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Given that I've seen a lot of people arguing about what we have seen running on PS5 or XSX I decided to try to list everything shown so far running on these machines, I'm not going to include the "representative" stuff and if I'm missing something, please tell me.

Current Gen games running on the XSX:
Quick Resume Demo with Hellblade, State of Decay 2, Ori and the Blind Forest and Forza Motorsport 7

00:00 Gears 5 at 4K/60 w/ lots of graphical upgrades over the Xbox One version and 08:20 Minecraft fully path traced

Current Gen games running on the PS5:
Loading demonstration with Spiderman

Next Gen games ruinning on XSX:
Pending.

Next Gen games running on PS5:
From 05:55 until 1:06:50 everything shown is running on a PS5, not listing every individual trailer, but there are 25 games here (not counting GTA 5)

The Pathless

Godfall

Bugsnax ❤

Bonus: Lumen in the Land of Nanite
 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Given that I've seen a lot of people arguing about what we have seen running on PS5 or XSX I decided to try to list everything shown so far running on these machines, I'm not going to include the "representative" stuff and if I'm missing something, please tell me.

Current Gen games running on the XSX:
Quick Resume Demo with Hellblade, State of Decay 2, Ori and the Blind Forest and Forza Motorsport 7

00:00 Gears 5 at 4K/60 w/ lots of graphical upgrades over the Xbox One version and 08:20 Minecraft fully path traced

Current Gen games running on the PS5:
Loading demonstration with Spiderman

Next Gen games ruinning on XSX:
Pending.

Next Gen games running on PS5:
From 05:55 until 1:06:50 everything shown is running on a PS5, not listing every individual trailer, but there are 25 games here (not counting GTA 5)

Godfall

The Pathless

Bugsnax ❤

Bonus: Lumen in the Land of Nanite
This could make a good thread.
 
Jun 2, 2020
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I call that a pure bullshit example. a few moments before, he was saying that without variable clocking and redirecting power from cpu to gpu, even 2Ghz was an unreachable target with fixed frequencies.
somehow now everybody believes that ps5 will have a constant 2.23Ghz gpu while the cpu will run at full speed too.

btw he also says that running the CPU at a constant 3Ghz was a headache without variable frequency,
and by now I think pretty much all of you must understand that this was bullshit too, right?
or, to put it more "elegantly", since that's what people seem to prefer, if microsoft can run at a constant 3.6Ghz, while sony "was having headaches" at a constant 3.0Ghz,
at best case scenario this leaves way too much to be desired about their unknown "elegant cooling system", doesn't it?

finally, as I have already written numerous times, if variable clock speed meant "couple of % reduction, like 44.6Mhz" like you say -or even 63Mhz (I give you a full 1% reduction more),
then sony would have simply locked the GPU at 2.1-2.2Ghz and would have called it a day.

my 2c's
It was a unreachable target because of cooling, not because of power. In fact, the console has enough power to run the GPU ABOVE 2.23GHz, but the logic wouldn’t function properly.

Cerny whole point was:
2.23GHz fixed -> Produces much heat all the time
Workload -> Can produce little or much heat, depends on the game

Heat from fixed clocks + Heat from heavy workload = console shutdown.

Traditionally, you circumvent that by clocking the GPU way UNDER it’s potential to ensure that the heat of a heavy workload can be dissipated.

The you get something like 1.8ish fixed clock all the time to prevent overheating vs 2.23GHz most of the time. It’s elegant because it’s a paradigm shift, it subverts your normal expectation. A not so powerful GPU can punch way above its weight with variable clocks... It’s literally more with less.

This has been debated ad nauseam, I don’t understand why people always come back to this. We’ve already seen insane results. Travel back in time to the beginning of PS5 speculation and tell people they’d see Gran Turismo running at 4K60fps with Ray Tracing.

By the way, Sony can’t advertise the range of frequencies of the GPU for a simple reason... Sony can’t know how the games will use it. Some game might downclock the GPU into oblivion and that would still be okay. Why? Because developer aren’t idiots. They wouldn’t ignore these perfomance issues when Sony provides then a bunch of tool for profiling... But lazy devs gonna lazy devs...
 

Setsuna Mudou

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May 29, 2020
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indulge me with your interpretation
I don't think you will grant my, or anyone else's interpretation any more weight than yours, if you really think you "cracked the code". I've looked into smart shift and how AMD explained the way it works. Combined with Mark Cerny's presentation, it seems quite sensible to me. I've had other arguments here with people that assumed these frequencies are treated as classic "boost clocks", but that's not the case.

Honestly, just have a read about smart shift and see if you're still reaching the same conclusions you have right now.
 

Metroiddarks

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Mar 3, 2020
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as a playstation proponent, I find it funny that you talk like that.
since we already know that CUs is the place were raytracing calculations will take place,
and ps5 has 50% less than xbox, here is a simple example for you to ponder:
lets say a game -a third party game- uses 28 CUs on ps5 for everything else, and keeps 8 for ray tracing effects.
xbox can easily use 36 Cus for everything else, over-compensating the max possible Hz difference, and still have more than double the available CUs for raytracing effects.

should I wish you good luck?
ps5 36 CUs are 100%
xbox 52 CUs are n%

so xbox has n= 52*100 /36= 144,5% the cu's ps5 has. (somehow when I did the calculation in my mind before, I used 54cus instead of 52, hence the 150% instead of 144%)

as for the "elegant solutions" mystique and etc cerny sweet talk, yeah, ok.
both consoles are customized. why should sony's undescribed solution be more "elegant" than microsoft's? if anything, from what both companies have shown until now it seems that more "elegant" is the microsoft approach. (form factor, thermal footprint, Hz, power levels etc)
the "allocation" was to make the example easier to understand. would you prefer to break it down to cycles of individual CU's?



no, I wrote that for the same 28 CUs that PS5 allocates to rendering/shading/etc, xbox allocates 36, thus already over-compensating for the Mhz difference when ps5 runs at full speed.
then, while ps5 will have 8 CUs, xbox will still have 52-36= 16 and not 12, twice as many just like I wrote above.

on top, if you want to get more complicated, I'd ask that -since this sounds like a "worst case game" scenario per cerny's vocabulary- what would the real ps5 clockspeeds be at that case?

anyway....

soonish there will be no more "elegant mysteries", that's one thing that is for sure.

First this probably the worst analogy/example I ever read (well probably the SFS or 72 CUs were worst) in this forum and I read it a lot bullshit from both sides.

Second the raytracing performance is much more complex than talk on only effects, depends a lot of many factor like your culling solution, materials, etc.

Third what do you mean "uses 28 CUs", what are you talking about since when the rendering of a game works in that way when you are not using BC mode.

Is clear for many like me you don't any clue idea of what are you talking about only repeat words you heard or read on internet without be able to construct
an argument which make senses, please stop this poor attempts to create arguments before I have a stroke.

Looks if you are kid/tennager is really good you have interest in this topics, if you still learning you will able to you will be able to marvel at even some of the
indies for the things they are able to achieve with such limited resources but if you are an adult, understand that an opinion and an argument are not the
same as not everyone on the internet will read it and they will nod their heads.

I like when the people have a good debate but this is definitely not even close to being an exchange of opinions.

If you want to have an opportunity against Darius87 Darius87 you will need more than opinions.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Feb 10, 2020
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Salalah, Oman
Some more:

- Spiderman: MM is an expansion pack
- PS5 GPU is RDNA1
- Sony is trying to moneyhat big 3rd party games as they are scared of Digital Foundry face-offs (seriously, seen this a couple times here!)
- Craig looked bad because of the lighting
Now I see where all that list came from, I only played with the end product. Good job, guys.:messenger_clapping: :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 

Metroiddarks

Member
Mar 3, 2020
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New Video Shows How PS5 And Xbox Series X Improve Observer: System Redux's Graphics





🤤
I am happy to see a studio which shows us in a good video the old version vs the new version, the new version looks very good.

A thing which we don't have in the same quality from Sony and MIcrosoft because fuck the logic.
 
Jun 13, 2020
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This has been debated ad nauseam, I don’t understand why people always come back to this. We’ve already seen insane results. Travel back in time to the beginning of PS5 speculation and tell people they’d see Gran Turismo running at 4K60fps with Ray Tracing.
I quoted only this part, just to let you know that during the gameplay segment of GT7 shown, you know, the trial mountain part
a) there was absolutely no ray tracing present
b) was basically the GTS cars running, but not at checkerboard-then-rescale-to-4k like on ps4pro, but native 4k
c) there was shadow creep
d) popping-up of stuff like tunnel lights
oh and since I said "tunnel",
e) also absolutely no evidence of this advanced acoustics system, as car enters the tunnel and sound ...does not change at all.

go on, watch it yourself, here you go:


and while it would be reasonable to think that ray tracing of some sort will be added in-game (and not just the garage etc)
along with optimizing for shadows, changing detail and pop-ups (and I am a very reasonable person),
on the other hand you have Yamauchi's aspirations:

“Rather than a spatial resolution that you’re talking about,
I’m more interested in the advancements we can make in terms of the time resolution.
In terms of frames per second, rather than staying at 60 fps, I’m more interested in raising it to 120 fps or even 240 fps.
I think that’s what’s going to be changing the experience from here on forward.”
link: https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismos-future-4K-resolution-is-enough-but-240fps-is-the-target/

Now, any reasonable person like me, if he takes seriously Yamauchi's interview, pushing for 120 or 240fps @4k
also has to question just a little bit if the quality of in-game ray tracing can even be close to the trailer that preceded that gameplay segment.
and I think I am being very generous here with this, because other people would tell you that gt7 at 120@4k probably
would have as much ray tracing in-game, as the time that gpu will soar at 2.23 while the cpu is at 3.5
 
Jun 13, 2020
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.........
Third what do you mean "uses 28 CUs", what are you talking about since when the rendering of a game works in that way when you are not using BC mode.

Is clear for many like me you don't any clue idea of what are you talking about only repeat words you heard or read in internet without be able to construct
an argument which make senses, please stop this poor attempts to create arguments before I have a stroke.

Looks if you are kid/tennager is really good you have interest in this topics, ........
maybe you should have tried reading twice or thrice before commenting, as I made my example the most basic and easy I could
if you can't understand "what do I mean" in that example, I am afraid I cannot make it any more simple for you.
 

geordiemp

Member
Sep 5, 2013
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I call that a pure bullshit example. a few moments before, he was saying that without variable clocking and redirecting power from cpu to gpu, even 2Ghz was an unreachable target with fixed frequencies.
somehow now everybody believes that ps5 will have a constant 2.23Ghz gpu while the cpu will run at full speed too.

btw he also says that running the CPU at a constant 3Ghz was a headache without variable frequency,
and by now I think pretty much all of you must understand that this was bullshit too, right?
or, to put it more "elegantly", since that's what people seem to prefer, if microsoft can run at a constant 3.6Ghz, while sony "was having headaches" at a constant 3.0Ghz,
at best case scenario this leaves way too much to be desired about their unknown "elegant cooling system", doesn't it?

finally, as I have already written numerous times, if variable clock speed meant "couple of % reduction, like 44.6Mhz" like you say -or even 63Mhz (I give you a full 1% reduction more),
then sony would have simply locked the GPU at 2.1-2.2Ghz and would have called it a day.

my 2c's
Cerny

It's counterintuitive but processing dense geometry typically consumes less power than processing simple geometry which is I suspect why "Horizon"s map screen with its low triangle count makes my PS4 Pro heat up so much.
Things like furmark kill GPUs becasue the simple loops of the geometry heat up, BUT its not normal CPU activity then GPU rendering frames we see when playing a game.

Hence the solution. Maybe ps5 will run map screens really poorly :messenger_beaming: , but these are the instances that if can be downclocked for a few milliseconds at a time and it wont hurt game performance and allow higher clocks,in fact we might never notice.....
 
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kyliethicc

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Mar 14, 2020
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indulge me with your interpretation
As to your point about Cerny saying they were targeting 3.0 GHz and 2.0 GHz for CPU and GPU clocks, but having difficulty with fixed frequencies, here’s a key thing to remember.

He didn’t say why it was difficult. They obviously could make a console hit those clocks, but

1) what would the power consumption be?
2) would it work within a box of the size they were aiming for?
3) would the fans needed for cooling be too loud?
4) how would that heat affect the other components in the box, like the SSD?
5) what size power supply would they need to included?
6) how would all of this affect the retail price?

He said using variable frequencies allow they to achieve high speeds, given their self imposed constraints of designing a certain system for a certain box for a certain market.

We don’t know all their constraints. So it’s a bit silly to say they couldn’t get a CPU to hit 3 GHz. Of course they could, just like they COULD make a PS5 with 4 TB of storage and 32GB of RAM, but they won’t due to various constraints.

The way to judge Sony’s design for the PS5 chip is 1) games and 2) noise. If it’s quite, and the games are great, then who cares. If it’s loud and the games are still great, that’s what we had with PS4. Good not perfect. If the games suck, and it’s Sony Airlines again, then obviously it’ll be bad. Gotta wait and see for ourselves.
 

kyliethicc

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Mar 14, 2020
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I quoted only this part, just to let you know that during the gameplay segment of GT7 shown, you know, the trial mountain part
a) there was absolutely no ray tracing present
b) was basically the GTS cars running, but not at checkerboard-then-rescale-to-4k like on ps4pro, but native 4k
c) there was shadow creep
d) popping-up of stuff like tunnel lights
oh and since I said "tunnel",
e) also absolutely no evidence of this advanced acoustics system, as car enters the tunnel and sound ...does not change at all.

go on, watch it yourself, here you go:


and while it would be reasonable to think that ray tracing of some sort will be added in-game (and not just the garage etc)
along with optimizing for shadows, changing detail and pop-ups (and I am a very reasonable person),
on the other hand you have Yamauchi's aspirations:



link: https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismos-future-4K-resolution-is-enough-but-240fps-is-the-target/

Now, any reasonable person like me, if he takes seriously Yamauchi's interview, pushing for 120 or 240fps @4k
also has to question just a little bit if the quality of in-game ray tracing can even be close to the trailer that preceded that gameplay segment.
and I think I am being very generous here with this, because other people would tell you that gt7 at 120@4k probably
would have as much ray tracing in-game, as the time that gpu will soar at 2.23 while the cpu is at 3.5
Ehh I hear a difference, I drive that car in GT sport, the Mazda RX GT3. Sounds better in the GT7 footage. The audio for cockpit view wouldn’t be affected by a tunnel as much because your hearing a mix for wearing a helmet inside a closed car. The tunnel reverb would be more for a 3rd person chase camera.

Also, the rear view camera screen looks like it’s using RT in GT7, it looks much sharper. The relfections look much better on the other cars too.

Its a bit ridiculous to say there’s no ray tracing in the gameplay, how would you know? Did you make the game or have Polyphony tell you?
 

bitbydeath

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Nov 25, 2015
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I’m sorry why are you entertaining this idea? For sure you already saw Spider-Man MM and R&C running 4k/30 and gt7 4K/60 with RT enabled? Or are you doubting that this would be the case?

The fanboy mentality really can mess some hard.. you need to step down from that fantasy world..
People often forget we’ve already seen what PS5 is capable of. If XSX can match it great. If not then who cares. The differences will be small anyhow.
 
Jun 13, 2020
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As to your point about Cerny saying they were targeting 3.0 GHz and 2.0 GHz for CPU and GPU clocks, but having difficulty with fixed frequencies, here’s a key thing to remember.

He didn’t say why it was difficult. They obviously could make a console hit those clocks, but

1) what would the power consumption be?
2) would it work within a box of the size they were aiming for?
3) would the fans needed for cooling be too loud?
4) how would that heat affect the other components in the box, like the SSD?
5) what size power supply would they need to included?
6) how would all of this affect the retail price?

He said using variable frequencies allow they to achieve high speeds, given their self imposed constraints of designing a certain system for a certain box for a certain market.

We don’t know all their constraints. So it’s a bit silly to say they couldn’t get a CPU to hit 3 GHz. Of course they could, just like they COULD make a PS5 with 4 TB of storage and 32GB of RAM, but they won’t due to various constraints.

The way to judge Sony’s design for the PS5 chip is 1) games and 2) noise. If it’s quite, and the games are great, then who cares. If it’s loud and the games are still great, that’s what we had with PS4. Good not perfect. If the games suck, and it’s Sony Airlines again, then obviously it’ll be bad. Gotta wait and see for ourselves.
1-power consumption not really a big issue imo, since we know both from amd that power needs of this tech are low, and yesterday's hot chip is further proof, as series x consumes as much as xbone x.
2-since playstation 5 has what seems to be the biggest console enclosure ever, you might want to reverse your way of thinking on this.
3-we dont know, but look at 2
4-same as 3
5-look at 1
6-dont know, since your parameters seem opposite to reality. as I said, judging from the size of the box it looks like now it needs more cooling than the case you are describing.

and about " it’s a bit silly to say they couldn’t get a CPU to hit 3 GHz.", we agree on this. but it was just cerny's words from his presentation I quoted, exactly to say what you are saying.
 
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sircaw

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I quoted only this part, just to let you know that during the gameplay segment of GT7 shown, you know, the trial mountain part
a) there was absolutely no ray tracing present
b) was basically the GTS cars running, but not at checkerboard-then-rescale-to-4k like on ps4pro, but native 4k
c) there was shadow creep
d) popping-up of stuff like tunnel lights
oh and since I said "tunnel",
e) also absolutely no evidence of this advanced acoustics system, as car enters the tunnel and sound ...does not change at all.

go on, watch it yourself, here you go:


and while it would be reasonable to think that ray tracing of some sort will be added in-game (and not just the garage etc)
along with optimizing for shadows, changing detail and pop-ups (and I am a very reasonable person),
on the other hand you have Yamauchi's aspirations:



link: https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismos-future-4K-resolution-is-enough-but-240fps-is-the-target/

Now, any reasonable person like me, if he takes seriously Yamauchi's interview, pushing for 120 or 240fps @4k
also has to question just a little bit if the quality of in-game ray tracing can even be close to the trailer that preceded that gameplay segment.
and I think I am being very generous here with this, because other people would tell you that gt7 at 120@4k probably
would have as much ray tracing in-game, as the time that gpu will soar at 2.23 while the cpu is at 3.5
In the gameplay segment that reflections in the car hood seem to me they can be ray traced... why you are so sure they are not?
 
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kyliethicc

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1-power consumption not really a big issue imo, since we know both from amd that power needs of this tech are low, and yesterday's hot chip is further proof, as series x consumes as much as xbone x.
2-since playstation 5 has what seems to be the biggest console enclosure ever, you might want to reverse your way of thinking on this.
3-we dont know, but look at 2
4-same as 3
5-look at 1
6-dont know, since your parameters seem opposite to reality. as I said, judging from the size of the box it looks like now it needs more cooling than the case you are describing.

and about " it’s a bit silly to say they couldn’t get a CPU to hit 3 GHz.", we agree on this. but it was just Cerny's words from his presentation I quoted, exactly to say what you are saying.
(Wrong, Series X has a 315 W power supply according to Digital Foundry. Xbox One X was 245 W.)

You seem to be misunderstanding. Cerny said they could not get to the fixed clocks BUT HE DID NOT say why. That’s my point, we don’t know why. You’re pretending you know why.

PS5 size relative to other consoles is irrelevant. They have their own design goals and constraints, many of which we don’t know. If they, for example, wanted to make a console that is less than 10 cm tall when laying on its side, that could affect how they design the speeds of the chip. It would be different than if the choose to let the console be 15 cm tall. Same with if it had to be less than 7 cm, etc.

Unless you’re designing the console, you can’t know what they chose to do or chose not to do for any number of business reasons, aesthetic reasons, subjective design goals, etc. You’re basing your whole idea on a premise that all consoles are made with the same goals and using the same subjective choices along the way. Therefore if one box can do x, and another can’t, it must be worse. This isn’t true necessarily. A designer has choices along the way and will seek different targets for many different reasons, not just 1 uniform blanket set of rules that every box is made under.
 
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Jun 13, 2020
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Ehh I hear a difference, I drive that car in GT sport, the Mazda RX GT3. Sounds better in the GT7 footage. The audio for cockpit view wouldn’t be affected by a tunnel as much because your hearing a mix for wearing a helmet inside a closed car. The tunnel reverb would be more for a 3rd person chase camera.

Also, the rear view camera screen looks like it’s using RT in GT7, it looks much sharper. The relfections look much better on the other cars too.

Its a bit ridiculous to say there’s no ray tracing in the gameplay, how would you know? Did you make the game or have Polyphony tell you?
of course it looks much sharper and cleaner, its native 4k instead of the checkerboard 1800p you are playing on pro.
now, about sound, I really dont think I need to go into it for too much.
you are saying that it is normal to not have change in acoustics when you enter or exit a tunnel, at full throttle, in race car. ok.
lets just say that this is your opinion, and it is much different than mine. (when game is finished and there are tunnel acoustics, maybe your opinion will be like mine ;] )

lastly, about "how do I know there is no ray tracing during the gameplay segment", this is very easy: I use my eyes, and I trust them.
You can go ask nx gamer or digital foundry about this if you don't trust yours.
Car showroom, garage, trailers, yes, ray tracing was there. in-game, nope, zero.


edit:
about your other post about the power consumption, here's something from yesterday's hot chips

it may (or may not) relay to GPU only, but anyway it is about GPU we are talking about here
 
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raul3d

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Mar 30, 2020
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In the gameplay segment that reflections in the car hood seem to me they can be ray traced... why you are so sure they are not?
Because he is trolling. The reflections in your own car's hood are clearly raytraced, even in the gameplay video. But I mean he could also count the polygons of the cars and identified them as "only GTS" cars, what ever that is supposed to mean..

lastly, about "how do I know there is no ray tracing during the gameplay segment", this is very easy: I use my eyes, and I trust them.
You can go ask nx gamer or digital foundry about this if you don't trust yours.
Car showroom, garage, trailers, yes, ray tracing was there. in-game, nope, zero.
Then please get your eyes checked and invest more than 5 seconds looking at the trailer. It is really annoying that you present incorrect information as facts. In the trailer you posted, at frame 11140 you can even read the reflected off-screen banner in the car's hood.