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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

geordiemp

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"This continuous improvement in AMD technology means it's dangerous to rely on teraflops as an absolute indicator of performance.
And CU count should be avoided as well. "

I'm sure that both TF and CU count being handwaved and 'avoided as an absolute indicator of performance' has nothing to do with the fact that they're both at a higher number in the XSX.

PR stunt. Accept it for what it is.

It isn't any different than Spencer saying they're not interested in selling more XSXs than Sony will sell PS5s because he knows the PS5 will utterly destroy the XSX in sales and tries to downplay that fact.
Its not a PR stunt by Cerny, TF is a the theoretical max number and only applies if the technologies doing the shading are the same.

They are not the same ps5 is different to standard RDNA2 and XSX as eluded to by many.....

Simplified GPU is in 2 stages, vertices shader and then the FP32 data is sent to local caches and then processed by pixel shader. This creates bottlenecks and slowdown of the wavefronts between the 2 parts. Ps5 patent by Cerny and Naughty dog compresses the data between the vertex and pixel parts of the GPU.

It overcomes this


So, faster caches due to 2.23 Ghz, Cache scrubbers, GPU compression between two major function blocks...

Dont be so sure ps5 shaders is not XSX shaders. How do games run, can ps5 run games look good in 4k....remember its only 15 % difference and you have DX12 abstract apis, faster ps5 caches and faster data between GPU blocks.

Not so straight forward is it ?
 
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BGs

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Drunk post which may get deleted so putting in quotes for posterity. LOL.

Edit: And it’s gone!


Surely to many it would seem like an absurd question, but if someone can do me a favor ... can you explain how reddit "works"? Is it like a twitter? Is it anonymous? Could be it? Etc...


If possible, can you answer privately to avoid diverting the thread?

Thank you

EDIT.- It's for a friend :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
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danielJackson

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"This continuous improvement in AMD technology means it's dangerous to rely on teraflops as an absolute indicator of performance.
And CU count should be avoided as well. "

I'm sure that both TF and CU count being handwaved and 'avoided as an absolute indicator of performance' has nothing to do with the fact that they're both at a higher number in the XSX.

PR stunt. Accept it for what it is.

It isn't any different than Spencer saying they're not interested in selling more XSXs than Sony will sell PS5s because he knows the PS5 will utterly destroy the XSX in sales and tries to downplay that fact.
That is silly.

You are saying that it is impossible that Cerny compares old tech to new tech?

That is like saying "I believe in god and god is true because I believe in him" aka zero proof or logic

If we assume that he talked about old vs new tech as it literally were, then how could anybody prove that it is about that when people say "bbbbut it must be about xbox because xbox have more numbers!"?

What cerny said are facts about GNC vs. RDNA2, that could also apply to ps5 vs xsex, but imo Sony isnt as childish as Microsoft that they would downtalk their competitor in presentation made for developers in mind.

It's not lame marketing talk like ms does mostly. My point is that how could he talk about gnc vs rdna2, if people think that anything related to cu+mhz must be about ps5 vs xbox, no matter what?
 
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Nickolaidas

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Its notva PR stunt, TF is a the theoretical max number and only applies if the technologies doing the shading are the same.

They are not the same ps5 is different to standard RDNA2.

Simplified GPU is in 2 stages, vertices shader and then the FP32 data is sent to local cahes and then processed by pixel shader. THis creates bottlenecks and slowdown of the wavefronts between the 2 parts. Ps5 patent by Cerny and Naughty dog compresses the data between the vertex and pixel parts of the GPU.

It overcomes this


So, faster caches due to 2.23 Ghz, Cache scrubbers, GPU compression between two major function blocks...

Dont be so sure. How do games run, can ps5 run games look good in 4k....remember its only 15 % difference and you ahve DX12 abstract apis, faster ps5 caches and faster data between GPU blocks.

Not so straight forward is it ?
I ask you this question: Do you think that Cerny would still say that TF and CU counts don't tell the whole story if the XSX had less TFs and CUs than the PS5?

He wouldn't. There's no way in hell that Cerny would downplay the importance of CUs and TFs if they were one more bullet point that the PS5 could one-up the XSX with. So I think it's safe to say that on the CU/TF subject, he was damage controlling.

Don't get me wrong, I think the PS5 will blow the XSX out of the water, but him handwaving TFs and CUs as a true measure of power was damage control.

And I don't care if he's an engineer and not a PR person. He was basically 'selling / pitching' the PS5 to developers with that speech and it makes sense to speak highly of and praise the things that the PS5 surpasses the XSX (SSD and sound), while downplaying the things the PS5 was worse than the XSX (TF and CU count).

If you don't think there's a pattern here, I don't know what to tell you.

Cerny believes in his product, and I do so as well, but he needs to present the PS5 to people who are not persuaded as well as us. It is THOSE people, people who think that CU and TF count is everything that Cerny needs to convince them that 'hey, you know what? CU and TF count ISN'T everything' after all.
 

TJC

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Another thing is, PS5 is 10 TF because Cerny chose so. He had a certain budget to spend (which includes money, termals and power) and he made some choices. Of course he's going to justify them because he thinks they were correct (I agree with him but that's a different thing). He made those choices after talking to devs, not marketers. Forgive my bias but I believe engineers and programmers know much more about making games than a salesman in a Craig tee.
It makes sense, developers are the people who matter in the end.
 

geordiemp

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I ask you this question: Do you think that Cerny would still say that TF and CU counts don't tell the whole story if the XSX had less TFs and CUs than the PS5?

He wouldn't. There's no way in hell that Cerny would downplay the importance of CUs and TFs if they were one more bullet point that the PS5 could one-up the XSX with. So I think it's safe to say that on the CU/TF subject, he was damage controlling.

Don't get me wrong, I think the PS5 will blow the XSX out of the water, but him handwaving TFs and CUs as a true measure of power was damage control.

And I don't care if he's an engineer and not a PR person. He was basically 'selling / pitching' the PS5 to developers with that speech and it makes sense to speak highly of and praise the things that the PS5 surpasses the XSX (SSD and sound), while downplaying the things the PS5 was worse than the XSX (TF and CU count).

If you don't think there's a pattern here, I don't know what to tell you.

Cerny believes in his product, and I do so as well, but he needs to present the PS5 to people who are not persuaded as well as us. It is THOSE people, people who think that CU and TF count is everything that Cerny needs to convince them that 'hey, you know what? CU and TF count ISN'T everything' after all.
TF is one metric, its important but not the only one that is the point. Cerny cant go and explain caches and how vertices and shaders work and efficiencies that is complex hardware in a general 1 hour presentaion, Sony also had not published the patent yet (only a weeks ago but filed a year or more ago)

Lets wait for the next hardware teardown.. If Ps5 is close to XSX with a smaller and cheaper die, Cerny did his job..

Note just becasue Sony have a GPU patent which eludes efficiency, it has to be seen, if it does not work as intended maybe XSX is 30 % stronger, or maybe it stays at 15 %, or maybe they are similar.

But it is in no way clear is it. whats your guess ?
 
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Nickolaidas

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Another thing is, PS5 is 10 TF because Cerny chose so. He had a certain budget to spend (which includes money, termals and power) and he made some choices. Of course he's going to justify them because he thinks they were correct (I agree with him but that's a different thing). He made those choices after talking to devs, not marketers. Forgive my bias but I believe engineers and programmers know much more about making games than a salesman in a Craig tee.
Of course he chose 10 TF based on budget and trying to get the max out of said budget. That doesn't change the fact that the two things (on paper) that the PS5 is < than the XSX were the two things that Cerny portrayed as 'not telling the whole story'. To which again, I state that IF the XSX was announced to have fewer CUs and TFs than the PS5, Cerny wouldn't appear so quick to dismiss the power of the numbers, because in that scenario he would be handwaving the superiority of the PS5 over the XSX in terms of TFs and CUs.

Seriously, it's not rocket science.
 
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HAL-01

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Drunk post which may get deleted so putting in quotes for posterity. LOL.

Edit: And it’s gone!


I wouldn’t be inclined to believe this leak because of two reasons:
One as far as I know Sony kept the PS4 UI so tightly under wraps that first party devs working on the console didn’t get to see it up until it was shown on stage, I don’t see them just giving it away to some third parties for launch day themes, which I also don’t think have ever been a thing

Two I just feel in my bones that an UI that crops half of every icon offscreen breaks some sort of cardinal graphic design law, Paul Rand wouldn’t be too happy about this
 

geordiemp

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Of course he chose 10 TF based on budget and trying to get the max out of said budget. That doesn't change the fact that the two things (on paper) that the PS5 is < than the XSX were the two things that Cerny portrayed as 'not telling the whole story'. To which again, I state that IF the XSX was announced to have fewer CUs and TFs than the PS5, Cerny wouldn't appear so quick to dismiss the power of the numbers, because in that scenario he would be handwaving the superiority of the PS5 over the XSX in terms of TFs and CUs.

Seriously, it's not rocket science.
Cerny did not blab on like that on ps4 either, cant remember reading ps4 words most powerful console optimised for ps4 power blah blah/

Show dont tell. Sony showed games...
 
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FeiRR

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Of course he chose 10 TF based on budget and trying to get the max out of said budget. That doesn't change the fact that the two things (on paper) that the PS5 is < than the XSX were the two things that Cerny portrayed as 'not telling the whole story'. To which again, I state that IF the XSX was announced to have fewer CUs and TFs than the PS5, Cerny wouldn't appear so quick to dismiss the power of the numbers, because in that scenario he would be handwaving the superiority of the PS5 over the XSX in terms of TFs and CUs.

Seriously, it's not rocket science.
I don't agree with your theory so I didn't respond. Let's leave it here :)
 

CrysisFreak

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I wouldn’t be inclined to believe this leak because of two reasons:
One as far as I know Sony kept the PS4 UI so tightly under wraps that first party devs working on the console didn’t get to see it up until it was shown on stage, I don’t see them just giving it away to some third parties for launch day themes, which I also don’t think have ever been a thing

Two I just feel in my bones that an UI that crops half of every icon offscreen breaks some sort of cardinal graphic design law, Paul Rand wouldn’t be too happy about this
Yeah that sounded weird to me too.
 
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B_Boss

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Drunk post which may get deleted so putting in quotes for posterity. LOL.

Edit: And it’s gone!



I wouldn’t be inclined to believe this leak because of two reasons:
One as far as I know Sony kept the PS4 UI so tightly under wraps that first party devs working on the console didn’t get to see it up until it was shown on stage, I don’t see them just giving it away to some third parties for launch day themes, which I also don’t think have ever been a thing

Two I just feel in my bones that an UI that crops half of every icon offscreen breaks some sort of cardinal graphic design law, Paul Rand wouldn’t be too happy about this
Yet we have Sony’s own UX Design Chief:
Sony UX design head says PS5's UI is a '100 percent overhaul' of the current interface
'It's a whole new visual language and a complete rearchitecting of the user interface'
 
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FeiRR

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Could Ubisoft be trying to kill the physical format?
Or always online making a sneak comeback. Digital only consoles are, in fact, always online devices which caused so much turmoil 7 years ago. Where are all those people right now, they moved to big cities like that MS guy suggested on Twitter before being fired? I forgot his name...
 
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Nickolaidas

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Nickolaidas

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Or always online making a sneak comeback. Digital only consoles are, in fact, always online devices which caused so much turmoil 7 years ago. Where are all those people right now, they moved to big cities like that MS guy suggested on Twitter before being fired? I forgot his name...
Don ... something?
 

hemo memo

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Or always online making a sneak comeback. Digital only consoles are, in fact, always online devices which caused so much turmoil 7 years ago. Where are all those people right now, they moved to big cities like that MS guy suggested on Twitter before being fired? I forgot his name...
They still have awful policies so unless that changes I’ll and millions others still buy physical. They should copy Steam and then people would actually consider jumping in.
 

zaitsu

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Another store added pricing on PS5 499$ - placeholder or not, 499$ is the price i think.

Sony sold their both last consoles at launch for 399$
MS sold their both last consoles at launch for 499$

So i can see them both going up by 100$ this gen
PS5 499$ and DE 399$ to make more people buy into digital
XSX with 599$ pricetag and XSS with 399$ (just because they want to sell XOS v2 with 299$ price tag )

To be honest i think MS go with that pricing just to make early promo like with XOX when PRO holds its price to this day.
 
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FeiRR

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They still have awful policies so unless that changes I’ll and millions others still buy physical. They should copy Steam and then people would actually consider jumping in.
How is Steam different? It's a "subscription service" as it's stated in their EULA.
 
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Crazychipmunx

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Could Xbox be using the 12 Tflop GPU to run multiple instances for cloud gaming. With recent quotes regarding the Zen 2 CPU being "server class", could microsoft have designed the xbox series x to be used as a server blade in addition to console. In this case, 12 tflops could possibly run 3 instances of a 1080p game, with similar settings to the series S, each virtual machine supplied with their own CPU.
 
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Blizzje

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Or always online making a sneak comeback. Digital only consoles are, in fact, always online devices which caused so much turmoil 7 years ago. Where are all those people right now, they moved to big cities like that MS guy suggested on Twitter before being fired? I forgot his name...
Turn 'main system' on for your ps4 and you are able to play all your games without having to login online. I'm going to go ahead and assume this is the same for the PS5.
 

IllegalLemon

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Yet we have Sony’s own UX Design Chief:


He said it himself in that Reddit post that he’s drunk, that’s a good enough of a reason to ignore what he says and what he says goes completely against what Sony’s own UI/UX Designer has already said. Devs(both 1st and 3rd party) don’t even get to see the actual UI until the company that designs the UI in question takes the wraps off of it, an even bigger reason to not listen to a random nobody on Reddit.
 
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MastaKiiLA

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This has to wait until some major third party publisher has a game for both platforms that can be analysed. And still, it won't be a 1:1 comparison because devs can optimize their engines for each platform to take advantage of particular architecture features.

I'd wait for a DICE game (probably Battlefield 6) or a Rockstar game (probably GTA6) because those devs are good at what they do. I'm sure a lot of early cross-gen games will be badly optimized, taking into consideration current pandemic situation. Don't count on AC: Valhalla or Cyberpunk shining on next gen at launch.
Multiplats don't really tell you much about system power, other than which system performs best under the engine that's developed. For example, you shouldn't expect the next CoD to be built for the PS5 SSD, because XSX and the vast majority of PC gamers won't have that kind of drive speed available. Multiplats have to aim for a lowest common denominator for various parameters, and then optimize as much as they can for specific systems.

I never understood why people championed multiplat games as some benchmark for performance, because it's not a PC, where the basic architecture is the same, with the main difference being how quickly each graphics card can churn through on a common API. While you won't get 1:1 game comparisons, system exclusives are the true test of system performance. All multiplats will tell you is which box runs a given engine best.
 
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FeiRR

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Multiplats don't really tell you much about system power, other than which system performs best under the engine that's developed. For example, you shouldn't expect the next CoD to be built for the PS5 SSD, because XSX and the vast majority of PC gamers won't have that kind of drive speed available. Multiplats have to aim for a lowest common denominator for various parameters, and then optimize as much as they can for specific systems.

I never understood why people championed multiplat games as some benchmark for performance, because it's not a PC, where the basic architecture is the same, with the main difference being how quickly each graphics card can churn through on a common API. While you won't get 1:1 game comparisons, system exclusives are the true test of system performance. All multiplats will tell you is which box runs a given engine best.
I agree it doesn't make much difference but it's the only way for people who care so much about platform parity. I don't understand it. Having a second console to play some games is troublesome. What about your friends you want to play with? Most MP games are multiplatform.
 
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MastaKiiLA

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Could Xbox be using the 12 Tflop GPU to run multiple instances for cloud gaming. With recent quotes regarding the Zen 2 CPU being "server class", could microsoft have designed the xbox series x to be used as a server blade in addition to console. In this case, 12 tflops could possibly run 3 instances of a 1080p game, with similar settings to the series S, each virtual machine supplied with their own CPU.
That would be wrong on so many levels. Sacrificing game performance to drive your cloud service is not the right way to go. I don't see this as even remotely possible. I don't think you can effectively distribute game processing anyway, just due to latency. Pretty sure it's all running on their Azure stacks.
 

welshrat

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Just a thought but if Xbox do indeed have the cheaper and most expensive console which sandwiches the PS5 in the middle it could be a huge advantage to Sony as most people spend in the middle tier. They don't want the cheapest but feel the top is too expensive. Again just food for thought and might not play out like that regardless.
 

CrysisFreak

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Just a thought but if Xbox do indeed have the cheaper and most expensive console which sandwiches the PS5 in the middle it could be a huge advantage to Sony as most people spend in the middle tier. They don't want the cheapest but feel the top is too expensive. Again just food for thought and might not play out like that regardless.
Good point.
If Lockhart was closer to PS5 performance that would not be the case, but considering just how much weaker its GPU is, I can imagine people thinking they don't want to gimp anything and going for the PS5.
Just speculating.
 

T-Cake

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Could Xbox be using the 12 Tflop GPU to run multiple instances for cloud gaming. With recent quotes regarding the Zen 2 CPU being "server class", could microsoft have designed the xbox series x to be used as a server blade in addition to console. In this case, 12 tflops could possibly run 3 instances of a 1080p game, with similar settings to the series S, each virtual machine supplied with their own CPU.
That's already been confirmed. The XSX will run 4 instances of Xbox One S titles simultaneously. But I guess at some point they will offer 4K streaming for a 1-to-1 with XSX games.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Not really. Sony has a pro division which makes TV cameras, for example. My friend is a technician at a major TV station here and he says they're pretty much standard for quality in production. $200k a piece devices with very high profit margin for the producer.
You mean CineAlta, yup, those are top tier. Here Oman TV has paid Sony around 5.2 million Omani Rials ($13.52 million USD) just for a little branch in my city, Salalah, a population of 250K. Not sure how much they paid in the capital but heard it was double that. Both are 4K-Ready by the way since 2013.
 
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Neo Blaster

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"This continuous improvement in AMD technology means it's dangerous to rely on teraflops as an absolute indicator of performance.
And CU count should be avoided as well. "

I'm sure that both TF and CU count being handwaved and 'avoided as an absolute indicator of performance' has nothing to do with the fact that they're both at a higher number in the XSX.

PR stunt. Accept it for what it is.

It isn't any different than Spencer saying they're not interested in selling more XSXs than Sony will sell PS5s because he knows the PS5 will utterly destroy the XSX in sales and tries to downplay that fact.
Just check the context, Cerny was talking about differences in architectures and CUs. And you're comparing an engineer who isn't even a Sony employee to a PR master suit.
 
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JonnyMP3

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You mean CineAlta, yup, those are top tier. Here Oman TV has paid Sony around 5.2 million Omani Rials ($13.52 million USD) just for a little branch in my city, Salalah, a population of 250K. Not sure how much they paid in the capital but heard it was double that. Both are 4K-Ready by the way since 2013.
Hey Bo. Welcome back. Sorry I missed the party. I'm currently ill atm.

But anyways. Speaking of camera talk... How are they compared to REDs? As I'd always heard they were top of the line.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
Your interactions with that filthy mud fish sircaw sircaw are priceless. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
When you were banned, i mourned your loss.
I rallied the troops in your defense as we patiently awaited your return.
When you returned I got Gamernyc78 Gamernyc78 to wear a cheerleader dress, yewles1 yewles1 brought the pom poms

And this is the way you thank me, going behind my back with the fatcat AeneaGames AeneaGames (Krakatoa features)

i am going to curse you now, so that in your next life you come back as the most file disgusting creature ever to walk the earth.

you will be reborn, as a Liverpool supporter.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
The plan to poke some fun in THICC vs THIN went down like a lead balloon, ah well!

Oh shit I could have sworn that singer on Mr.Big vid is a dudette! Reminds me of when I had the instant hots for the Placebo singer after watching 'Pure Morning' vid only to discover some time after HIS name is BRIAN :sick:🤮, to make things worse at the time I had boasted to friends that I would totally DO HER 🥶 , the damn catchy lyrics to 'pure morning' just made things even more confusing! Nonetheless Placebo still became one of my favourite bands...

I think we're (especially you!) testing @Mod of War patience , I foresee a warning coming soon 🥳
Brian haha, as for mod of war i have something special planned for him later.
None escape my RULE
 

welshrat

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Good point.
If Lockhart was closer to PS5 performance that would not be the case, but considering just how much weaker its GPU is, I can imagine people thinking they don't want to gimp anything and going for the PS5.
Just speculating.
Yes exactly what I was thinking. If the marketing is all about TF then 10.2 is close enough to 12 that the average Joe won't care but 4TF - 10TF is a huge difference and then you have the educated who will have researched the console that they want which ever that is based on strengths, games, friends etc.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Hey Bo. Welcome back. Sorry I missed the party. I'm currently ill atm.

But anyways. Speaking of camera talk... How are they compared to REDs? As I'd always heard they were top of the line.
Well, it's safe to say that Sony CineAlta is the first to introduce digital 8K in 2011. RED are great, they're both in similar ground but didn't dig deep into both. Seen one RED in person back in 2013, to make a small clip of me talking about nature in like 2-3 minutes in the final video, it had 6 packs of batteries, a bag, all with fans. When it starts working, those fans scream! Here it is in action doing some cinematic bullshot of me:






The total set costs like 35K OMR ($91K USD). CineAlta costs around that for 8K versions. This is an old one though, it's like 7 years since those photos.

Oman TV is still using 1080p cameras, those are different stuff as they are like a moving live channel emitters that can send live signal to the channel HQ, with assistance from the van. The new Sony Xperia Pro is actually the first smartphone to have a unique wave of 5G that is critical when sending 4K/8K signal in a big crowded area with plenty of other phones like a stadium to the van outside. It's a true PRO, not PRO BS from iPhone/Huawei/Samsung:


Here is a picture of the camera used by Oman TV, Sony something but not CineAlta, and I'm on the left. This is back in 2013:


Sony in the imaging sensors are the global dominant:



And Sony Alpha cameras have dethroned Canon and Nikon with their mirrorless cameras, now both are trying to catch up after laughing at the mirrorless tech years back with their aging DSLR's. I'm getting the new Sony a7S III, that bitch costs $3,500 just for the body, but can do 4K@120fps 10-bit internally, 4K@120fps 16-bit raw externally! Still, it's a photo camera, with insane low light capabilities up to 409,600 ISO (human eye can only see 1,600-3,200 ISO)!
 
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Mr Moose

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Could Xbox be using the 12 Tflop GPU to run multiple instances for cloud gaming. With recent quotes regarding the Zen 2 CPU being "server class", could microsoft have designed the xbox series x to be used as a server blade in addition to console. In this case, 12 tflops could possibly run 3 instances of a 1080p game, with similar settings to the series S, each virtual machine supplied with their own CPU.
From what I can tell (from Googling just now lol), server class CPUs run near 100% sustained load while having larger cache.
In the case of the Series X CPU, only one of those is true (sustained load).
 
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