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[Rea]

.. post deleted

 

[Dodkrake]

Niiiice

Why do people think this is true? I work with audio. Simply turning on my microphone, far removed from my computer, in a quiet environment, still measures something. Whisper quiet is still audible in a microhpone. There's no need to lie to make a point on something that seems to be true (the console running quiet in taxing tasks).

Unless he has a noise gate enabled and is too stupid to understand what a noise gate is, which wouldn't suprise me.

 

[HAL-01]

While I'm not spanish, my spanish chops are ok. Happy to translate what the interviews say, with proper context. First, the one that says Demon Souls has no Ray Tracing

Confirman que Demon’s Souls no tendrá raytracing en PlayStation 5 | LevelUp

LEVEL UP platicó con Gavin Moore, director creativo del juego y miembro de SIE Japan Studio

levelup.com

Original



Translation



This does lead to believe that there is no Ray Tracing on the game, contradicting previous statements and Sony themselves.Now, the interesting bit as that another "interview" from the day before completely contradicts this.

Así se ha creado Demon’s Souls: conociendo el primer gran exclusivo de PS5

Entrevistamos a Gavin Moore, director creativo del título en SIE Studios, encargado de coordinar tanto al equipo japonés como a Bluepoint Games.

as.com

Original



Translation



This one shows that there is Ray Traced global illumination, from my understanding of what he said.

I’m a native Spanish speaker, your translations are mostly right. We have 2 different interviews with the same guy by 2 different sites, published one day apart. In one he confirms ray traced GI, on the other he confirms no RT.

It’s just a classic case of Schrodinger’s Lighting, in which the game both does and does not implement RT at the same time, until either one of the interviews is proven bogus.

 

[smallpotatosan]

Why do people think this is true? I work with audio. Simply turning on my microphone, far removed from my computer, in a quiet environment, still measures something. Whisper quiet is still audible in a microhpone. There's no need to lie to make a point on something that seems to be true (the console running quiet in taxing tasks).

Unless he has a noise gate enabled and is too stupid to understand what a noise gate is, which wouldn't suprise me.

He probably forgot to turn it on.

 

[Yoboman]

I’m a native Spanish speaker, your translations are mostly right. We have 2 different interviews with the same guy by 2 different sites, published one day apart. In one he confirms ray traced GI, on the other he confirms no RT.

It’s just a classic case of Schrodinger’s Lighting, in which the game both does and does not implement RT at the same time, until either one of the interviews is proven bogus.

Perhaps its RT in the visual quality mode and no RT in the performance mode

 

[Dodkrake]

I’m a native Spanish speaker, your translations are mostly right. We have 2 different interviews with the same guy by 2 different sites, published one day apart. In one he confirms ray traced GI, on the other he confirms no RT.

It’s just a classic case of Schrodinger’s Lighting, in which the game both does and does not implement RT at the same time, until either one of the interviews is proven bogus.

Thank you. My spoken spanish is mostly shit, but I can read and understand properly.

Since I don't know how big those websites are I won't comment on whether the interviews may be more or less trustworthy, but seems weird that this has occurred.

Perhaps its RT in the visual quality mode and no RT in the performance mode

Could be that some context is lacking? This just sounds weird

 

[smallpotatosan]

I’m a native Spanish speaker, your translations are mostly right. We have 2 different interviews with the same guy by 2 different sites, published one day apart. In one he confirms ray traced GI, on the other he confirms no RT.

It’s just a classic case of Schrodinger’s Lighting, in which the game both does and does not implement RT at the same time, until either one of the interviews is proven bogus.

I have no idea what’s going on. I guess I don’t care anymore. lol

 

[Dodkrake]

I have no idea what’s going on. I guess I don’t care anymore. lol

Simple enough: Every single medium and interview so far has mentioned RT. One "interview" says no ray tracing, while other, on the same language, from the day before, says ray tracing. I say we trust the majority of the news until that same majority is proven wrong.

 

[HAL-01]

Perhaps its RT in the visual quality mode and no RT in the performance mode

Could be the case, though the interviews don’t specify. In one he goes “all lighting and shadows in the engine are real time thanks to RT” and on the other he just says “no rt because that was never part of our original vision”. They didn’t leave a lot of room for speculation.

It could also be a case of things being lost in translation. I assume the Gavin guy doesn’t speak Spanish, so they must’ve used a translator. They could’ve asked him if the game had “RT reflections” when they meant RT in general, and because the game only has RT global illumination, not reflections, Gavin said no

 

[Lethal01]

How do you know? Demon souls could be using RT in 30fps mode. It's understandable no RT in 60fps coz it's taxing.

I'm not talking about that, I'm saying that majority of AAA games already have realtime lighting and shadows so saying that you have that means nothing.
What they want people to know is that their lighting and shadows are more accurate or used more often.

 

[Zadom]

Thank you. My spoken spanish is mostly shit, but I can read and understand properly.

Since I don't know how big those websites are I won't comment on whether the interviews may be more or less trustworthy, but seems weird that this has occurred.



Could be that some context is lacking? This just sounds weird

I appreciate you translating. Thanks.

 

[Lethal01]

I assume the Gavin guy doesn’t speak Spanish, so they must’ve used a translator.

I totally overlooked this, would explain a lot.

I thought him saying that it wasn't part of the vision and they eventually decided against it made sense. but the fact that he said it had it in an interview one day ago threw everything out of wack.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Someone ask Lance McDonald, he must know if the game has RT, maybe even John Linneman

 

[Rea]

I'm not talking about that, I'm saying that majority of AAA games already have realtime lighting and shadows so saying that you have that means nothing.
What they want people to know is that their lighting and shadows are more accurate or used more often.

Maybe your definition of real time lighting is different from mine, I'm talking about lighting like lumen in UE5 demo. Also, which majority of triple A games are you talking about, to give you an example, Triple A games like last of us2 and spider man ps4 used pre baked lighting and shadows.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Someone someone told me this thread is the Sony Gap thread while I'm here to tell you guys that I am the true Sony gath Lord and you must all bow down to me

 

[Omeyocan]

Apparently there is RT !

 

[Lethal01]

Maybe your definition of real time lighting is different from mine, I'm talking about lighting like lumen in UE5 demo. Also, which majority of triple A games are you talking about, to give you an example, Triple A games like last of us2 and spider man ps4 used pre baked lighting and shadows.

They use pre baked lighting IN ADDITION to realtime lighting.

Real time lights are literally just lights that are caluculated in realtime.. Same with shadows.

Now I think what he might want to say is that they have Real time global illlumination, Or real time ray traced shadows.

 

[3liteDragon]

The UE5 demo DID have real-time ray-tracing (GI and shadows), the only difference being that it was software-based and not hardware-accelerated (which still looked incredibly impressive, wonder how much of a difference you're gonna see with hardware-accelerated triangle-based RT). The UE5 demo had a VOXEL-BASED representation of all the geometry in the scene for large-scale light transfer so it's less intensive on the hardware since it's not tracing all the triangles on the model, but it's more of a simplified version of the scene geometry.

"Lumen uses ray tracing to solve indirect lighting, but not triangle ray tracing," explains Daniel Wright, technical director of graphics at Epic. "Lumen traces rays against a scene representation consisting of signed distance fields, voxels and height fields. As a result, it requires no special ray tracing hardware."

To achieve fully dynamic real-time GI, Lumen has a specific hierarchy. "Lumen uses a combination of different techniques to efficiently trace rays," continues Wright. "Screen-space traces handle tiny details, mesh signed distance field traces handle medium-scale light transfer and voxel traces handle large scale light transfer."

Lumen uses a combination of techniques then: to cover bounce lighting from larger objects and surfaces, it does not trace triangles, but uses voxels instead, which are boxy representations of the scene's geometry. For medium-sized objects Lumen then traces against signed distance fields which are best described as another slightly simplified version of the scene geometry. And finally, the smallest details in the scene are traced in screen-space, much like the screen-space global illumination we saw demoed in Gears of War 5 on Xbox Series X. By utilising varying levels of detail for object size and utilising screen-space information for the most complex smaller detail, Lumen saves on GPU time when compared to hardware triangle ray tracing.

Inside Unreal Engine 5: how Epic delivers its generational leap

Epic's reveal of Unreal Engine 5 running in real-time on PlayStation 5 delivered one of the seismic news events of the …

www.eurogamer.net

So Demon's Souls could be using a software-accelerated non-triangle-based RT solution (I could be flat-out wrong on this and it could turn out to be hardware-accelerated, I'm just guessing lol), but that still means the game has real-time ray-traced shadows and global illumination.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Simple enough: Every single medium and interview so far has mentioned RT. One "interview" says no ray tracing, while other, on the same language, from the day before, says ray tracing. I say we trust the majority of the news until that same majority is proven wrong.

Also isn't this screenshot ray traced or is just SSR with some pre baked reflections like the building in the puddle?

 

[ToadMan]

So the best looking next gen game doesnt use RT?

And one of the worst looking games doesn’t have RT either.

So maybe RT won’t make a Craig look better ...

But in reality RT is a real-time and dynamic lighting algorithm which is computationally intensive. But it can be faked pretty well by less intensive algorithms or even statically implemented by the graphic artists.

I’m not surprised people thought DeS had RT until someone told them it didn’t. It’s not really that easy to see in a lot of gaming situations and even if you do “see it” the implementation may be non real-time or using a cheaper method to achieve the same effect.

 

[ToadMan]

He probably forgot to turn it on.

The Xbox or the microphone?

 

[Honka]

So I got most of my PS5 accessories in today including the Pulse 3D headset so I wanted to give a mini-review. Just initial impressions from using them for a few hours tonight:

First, I hadn't realized they weren't bluetooth but had a dedicated USB transmitter that you will plug into your PS5. I tested the headphones with my Mac which seamlessly recognized and started sending audio to the headset.

For the headsets themselves, the construction felt surprisingly sturdy to me, especially for also how light they feel. The headset feels like it's good quality...at least comparable to my other $300+ wireless headset that I have, but it sits very lightly on my head. Feels very comfortable and the ear cups are very nice and soft. I wore them for over an hour straight and didn't have any 'ear fatigue.' I am someone who is a bit sensitive to ear fatigue and has to take breaks from many headsets after a while as they start to pinch my head or ears. These didn't do that after over an hour of continuous wear. So a plus in my book.

Sound quality of the headsets seems really nice. I think they could use a bit more bass and maybe a bit more volume ability as well. I like my audio pretty damn loud. Again, this is comparing them to my $300 wireless headset which I think has absolutely PHENOMENAL bass and good volume. But the Pulse 3D definitely HAVE bass and their mid and high range sounds good and distinct even when the bass is pumping, so that's good too. Overall I'd say they sound a bit better than I had expected them to for their price point. They're quite good!

The one thing I can't test that I'm concerned about is the wireless range and quality. I had a turtle beach pair of wireless headphones for my PS4 that used a USB transmitter like this and even with my entertainment center and TV about 8 feet away, they used to lose connectivity regularly enough to be an annoyance and sometimes would develop a high pitched squeal and echo that could only be resolved by restarting the PS4. It was enough of a pain in the ass that I trashed them and they cost me about $200. Just weren't worth it. So I'm very hopeful that these headsets don't have the same issues on the PS5. If it does...I'll trash them too and I will be telling EVERYONE including SONY all about it!

So overall, I think these headsets are a pleasant surprise for their price point. Very good sound by any measure although serious audiophiles will have gripes. Good bass levels with clear mid and high range although I DO wish they put out just a touch more volume...it's certainly adequate and will fill your head with sound. Ergonomics are very nice and comfortable with a lightness that should help gamers putting in multiple hour gaming sessions. The headsets feel like a quality built item so I think they will hold up to extended use pretty well.

I recommend these headsets to anyone looking for a good wireless option for their PS5. And you can still use them on your computer if you want to.

Thanks a lot for your review! Do you have Android TV to check whether Pulse 3D works with it?

 

[onesvenus]

In fact it is totally stupid that they are doing shadows and lighting in real time and are using the CPU, they will be using the RT hardware.

And they wouldn't have been able to locate any RT reflections so their conclusion is there is no RT. And yet there are enemies casting shadows on themselves ......

People do not know what they are seeing.

Not using RT does not equal to using the CPU to compute shadows and lighting. Most games from more than a decade ago compute shadows and lighting in the GPU.
Also self-shadowing is another thing that can be done without RT.
You are right when you say that people don't know what they are seeing

It is fully GI surely using the dedicated RT hardware.

GI can also be done without dedicated RT hardware.

@3:10 isn't real time lighting and real time shadows RT?

@2:44

"There are two modes, one which is called the cinematic mode and that's native 4K at 30 FPS, and that allows us to really go to town, I mean really go to town visually, it means we can up the resolution of every single tiny pebble in the game and tessellation is incredible and it's all real time lit and it's all real time shadows and it's so immersive."

I mean they have been mentioning RT for a long time, we have shadows and dynamic lighting in the video. And the 30 fps mode wouldn't make sense.

So, it means ray traced GI and ray traced shadows??

Real time lighting and real time shadows do not imply the use of RT. The proof is in all the games that have used that for the last decades.

It's beyond possible and there are countless games using fixed and baked lighting, but i don't wanna argue anymore, So, whatever you say.

Maybe your definition of real time lighting is different from mine, I'm talking about lighting like lumen in UE5 demo. Also, which majority of triple A games are you talking about, to give you an example, Triple A games like last of us2 and spider man ps4 used pre baked lighting and shadows.

Can you give a single example of an AAA game that doesn't use any kind of real time lighting shadowing that has been developed in the last 10 years?
Last of us 2 and Spiderman PS4 using pre baked static lighting and shadows does not mean there are not using real time lights and shadows also. It's not one thing or the other. There are some places where one does makes sense and some places where the other does. For example in games where there isn't a dynamic day-night cicle it usually doesn't make sense to use real time shadows in the environment because those shadows are static. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to not use real time lighting and shadowing in characters for example.

 

[onesvenus]

Reposting from the DS RT thread:

I have asked both authors what's happening and the one that claims there's no raytracing posted the original English transcript of the interview

The original tweet is here

 

[timmyp53]

Wonder if Sony will provide any new information on the PS5 UI. Either way embargos going down soon.

 

[Dibils2k]

edit

 

[Dibils2k]

Reposting from the DS RT thread:

I have asked both authors what's happening and the one that claims there's no raytracing posted the original English transcript of the interview

The original tweet is here

but once again, the expert Bo said there was CLEAR evidence of RT??

has bluepoint ever even said there would be RT?

 

[mansoor1980]

two more weeks and every thing will be clear.

 

[danielJackson]

Niiiice

Why do people think this is true? I work with audio. Simply turning on my microphone, far removed from my computer, in a quiet environment, still measures something. Whisper quiet is still audible in a microhpone. There's no need to lie to make a point on something that seems to be true (the console running quiet in taxing tasks).

Unless he has a noise gate enabled and is too stupid to understand what a noise gate is, which wouldn't suprise me.

Yeah it is sad, I have masters degree in environmental sciences and did noise measurements in a job + also 80 page study about noise measurements as part of the education + my boss were the most respected noise measurement expert in the country. And I dont remember seeing one (1) professionally made measurement from consoles so far, of any gen

And people believe these, because they have zero knowledge and/or they are gullible. They dont know shit about sound or measurements = any baboon with phone app is expert to them, sadly. People I met in the job, regular people, none had real understanding and they made wrong assumptions like few seconds of measuring is good(it is not) indicator, that how they get annoyed is certain mark that levels are illegal and so on.

I could bet this twitter baboon have phone app as "noise meter" as 99% have and think it have anything to do with calibrated professional equipment. And thinking how his "300 dollar mic" tells anything about the situation is stupid, it is probably some mic made for talking, not measuring noise. So those mics have some filters to make sound quality better usually. Good professional noise meters cost easily thousands (reason why they are almost never used in these "tests")

It is frustrating when people claim the system is "silent" or "whisper quiet", those literally tell nothing and mean nothing. Only professionally made measurements using standards tell the truth.

otherwise it is just random measurement, anything can fuck it up

- wrong equipment
- background noises (loud fans / ventilation / road traffic etc) = console can be noisy as fuck but these noises mask it = it is now "silent"
- wrong distance / different distances in different measurements
- wrong angle / side of device
- and 10 things more

devices must be measured in dampened "quiet room" with really low background noise levels, using same standards, calculating average from all/most sides from the device.

noise is subjective so reports are just personal feelings, not reality

Basically any device with fan is audible, only silent consoles are old NES/SNES era systems and even those emit tiny amount of noise in theory.

tl;dr it is safe to say that almost all internet console noise measurements are useless, as they are done wrongly + without professional equipment & environment

 

[Sinthor]

Thanks a lot for your review! Do you have Android TV to check whether Pulse 3D works with it?

I do not hav the Android TV- Sorry! I'd imagine that any device that typically works with headsets using USB transmitters SHOULD work with this though?

 

[Leekors]

 

[Rea]

Not using RT does not equal to using the CPU to compute shadows and lighting. Most games from more than a decade ago compute shadows and lighting in the GPU.
Also self-shadowing is another thing that can be done without RT.
You are right when you say that people don't know what they are seeing


GI can also be done without dedicated RT hardware.





Real time lighting and real time shadows do not imply the use of RT. The proof is in all the games that have used that for the last decades.



Can you give a single example of an AAA game that doesn't use any kind of real time lighting shadowing that has been developed in the last 10 years?
Last of us 2 and Spiderman PS4 using pre baked static lighting and shadows does not mean there are not using real time lights and shadows also. It's not one thing or the other. There are some places where one does makes sense and some places where the other does. For example in games where there isn't a dynamic day-night cicle it usually doesn't make sense to use real time shadows in the environment because those shadows are static. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to not use real time lighting and shadowing in characters for example.

I'm not talking about your definition of real time lighting, i was talking about dynamic lighting like lumen. I believe demon souls ps5 is using similar techniques as lumen.

 

[HAL-01]

Translation: “my theory is that they’re using something that looks like RT, but they don’t consider it pure rt. That would explain why they told us it didn’t have RT, but told them it did. We’re awaiting new information so we can clear things up”

It makes sense, but doesn’t really explain why he would give different answers to the same question on interviews a couple days apart

 

[Lethal01]

I'm not talking about your definition of real time lighting, i was talking about dynamic lighting like lumen. I believe demon souls ps5 is using similar techniques as lumen.

What is your definition of realtime lighting? "Like Lumen" really doesn't tell us anything.

 

[BatSu]

Demon's only has RT the odd months

 

[hemo memo]

Apparently there is RT !

Yes the opinion from the guy who can’t see the difference between a console and a mobile game. Clicks clicks clicks.

 

[DinoD]

Yes the opinion from the guy who can’t see the difference between a console and a mobile game. Clicks clicks clicks.

hyperbole - exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

You took it literally.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

So, Sony lied about Demon's Souls having RT, apparently. That's fucked up, and they should get the proper backlash for that. And still, based on the performance mode, it's still miles ahead of any other game we've seen so far.

I'm trying to find the fucks I give about ray tracing at this point, but I can't seem to find them.




On other news; Ubisoft, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with them? They blatantly lied about Watch Dogs being native 4K on Series X, apparently, coming from sources not precisely in cahoots with Sony (Alex from DF). That is still up on the air, I guess, since it is based on a gameplay video and we are yet to know 100% how it will fare on the console itself, but we're up to a bad start here. Then, they take down their statement about a number of PS4 games that won't work on PS5 because of some "inaccuracies".


Hell, what's wrong with these fucking companies, get your fucking shit together and be truthful. I don't care if your name is Sony, Ubisoft, or whatever.

 

[Redlight]

Why do people think this is true? I work with audio. Simply turning on my microphone, far removed from my computer, in a quiet environment, still measures something. Whisper quiet is still audible in a microhpone. There's no need to lie to make a point on something that seems to be true (the console running quiet in taxing tasks).

Unless he has a noise gate enabled and is too stupid to understand what a noise gate is, which wouldn't suprise me.

Because it may well be. If you have a very quiet room then a mic shouldn't be registering sound. Even the best mic won't pic up sound that isn't there.

Maybe you have auto gain turned on.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Also isn't this screenshot ray traced or is just SSR with some pre baked reflections like the building in the puddle?

Looks great but its a cut scene. 95% chance its baked since there is no need for dynamic lighting in a cutscene.

 

[onesvenus]

I'm not talking about your definition of real time lighting, i was talking about dynamic lighting like lumen. I believe demon souls ps5 is using similar techniques as lumen.

Any proof whatsoever about that?

 

[Rea]

What is your definition of realtime lighting? "Like Lumen" really doesn't tell us anything.

Surely u do know about lumen right? What i meant by real time lighting is like lumen in ue5. We having misunderstanding. old gen games didn't use techniques like lumen, but in Demon's souls might be using similar techniques. Imo. Period. I'm out

 

[Rea]

So, Sony lied about Demon's Souls having RT, apparently. That's fucked up, and they should get the proper backlash for that.

Sony can't lie, they won't risk so much reputation on the table, i think there's some misunderstanding or translation error. We have to wait and see.

 

[Sw0pDiller]

What's all this crazy talk about ds not having ray tracing? I could not care less, that game looks stunning! It's just ammo for the xbox defence squad because they don't have a game that comes even close visually to ds.

 

[Rea]

Any proof whatsoever about that?

No, just using my eyes, also i don't trust some interviews from unpopular magazine or journal from some websites. Have to wait and see until Df or other tech analysis channels get the hands on game.

 

[Kingthrash]

*forgot to add* watch it in motion, only 2 images are clear, HQ
-Aliasing during most of the scenes
-heavy use of motion blur
-at one point missing light on the car
-big surface building = no use of RT?
-some weird stuff going on during that fight, check the seams at 1min30 (left)
-some seconds of non series X footage, not sure why

Spoiler: 2x images native 4K, the others ...too much motion blur, some jaggies

I found some stuff.....I'll drop a video breaking down this vid....

 

[Lethal01]

Surely u do know about lumen right? What i meant by real time lighting is like lumen in ue5. We having misunderstanding. old gen games didn't use techniques like lumen, but in Demon's souls might be using similar techniques. Imo. Period. I'm out

Like I said, saying "like Lumen" doesn't really tell me what you mean. For all I know all you mean by "like Lumen" is "it looks really nice"
Are you talking about bounced lighting? the mix of screenspace and RT?

It doesn't really matter but you keep talking like what you are trying to say is obvious.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

So, Sony lied about Demon's Souls having RT, apparently. That's fucked up, and they should get the proper backlash for that. And still, based on the performance mode, it's still miles ahead of any other game we've seen so far.

I'm trying to find the fucks I give about ray tracing at this point, but I can't seem to find them.




On other news; Ubisoft, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with them? They blatantly lied about Watch Dogs being native 4K on Series X, apparently, coming from sources not precisely in cahoots with Sony (Alex from DF). That is still up on the air, I guess, since it is based on a gameplay video and we are yet to know 100% how it will fare on the console itself, but we're up to a bad start here. Then, they take down their statement about a number of PS4 games that won't work on PS5 because of some "inaccuracies".


Hell, what's wrong with these fucking companies, get your fucking shit together and be truthful. I don't care if your name is Sony, Ubisoft, or whatever.

Yeah, what a weird 24 hours we've had. First AC Valhalla, then WD Legion and now Demon's Souls. Hope they clear up their stuff soon.

 

[assurdum]

So, Sony lied about Demon's Souls having RT, apparently. That's fucked up, and they should get the proper backlash for that. And still, based on the performance mode, it's still miles ahead of any other game we've seen so far.

I'm trying to find the fucks I give about ray tracing at this point, but I can't seem to find them.




On other news; Ubisoft, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with them? They blatantly lied about Watch Dogs being native 4K on Series X, apparently, coming from sources not precisely in cahoots with Sony (Alex from DF). That is still up on the air, I guess, since it is based on a gameplay video and we are yet to know 100% how it will fare on the console itself, but we're up to a bad start here. Then, they take down their statement about a number of PS4 games that won't work on PS5 because of some "inaccuracies".


Hell, what's wrong with these fucking companies, get your fucking shit together and be truthful. I don't care if your name is Sony, Ubisoft, or whatever.

Ubisoft never been honest about native resolution matter. I was quite surprise to see 4k labelled at 60 fps for Valhalla, this game is fucking demanding on pc, play in 4k resolution or full 4k by them, means nothing.

 

[hemo memo]

Yeah, what a weird 24 hours we've had. First AC Valhalla, then WD Legion and now Demon's Souls. Hope they clear up their stuff soon.

I want to be optimistic but it’ll probably only get worse. Soon enough I guess.